If there is an upside to the oncoming economic train wreck, it would lie in a

[Jackpine Radical]

resurgence of the Left. I suspect that nothing is more effective at making a liberal of a libertarian than the discovery that one is utterly, and at no particular fault of one's own, dependent upon the largesse of society for one's survival.

I keep getting this image of Yuppies sleeping in the Hummers they can no longer afford to drive.

[slackmaster]

1. The left is going to keep talking about the "oncoming" economic train wreck until after it's over

They'll find themselves left in the lurch when the pendulum swings back the other way, like they do every time.

I suspect that nothing is more effective at making a liberal of a libertarian than the discovery that one is utterly, and at no particular fault of one's own, dependent upon the largesse of society for one's survival.

Where the left loses it is that they equate the largesse of society with government entitlements. There is certainly some overlap, but by and large people end up getting helped out mostly by family, friends, and neighbors during hard times.

[pecwae]

3. Damn good post.

[JDPriestly]

8. My dear slackmaster, we are born alone and naked. We die alone

no matter how many people are around us. In between, we need each other. We cannot survive without each other.

We each have something to give to others, something that makes us valuable to them. We each have needs that we cannot fulfill without others, something that makes them valuable to us. That something may be a baby's smile, or it may be the ability to create a beautiful painting or the capacity to organize a huge enterprise or create a useful machine. But no one is entirely self-sufficient. We are social beings. The family is the microcosm of that social structure.

At the same time, we can only give to others if we have developed our unique talents and capacities. Only when we are strong persons in our own rights can we fulfill the needs of others to an extent that makes us valuable to them. We are individuals.

As I understand it from my reading of Ayn Rand long ago, libertarianism exalts the individual and ridicules the idea that individuals are dependent on others. The other is simply to be used. Love and compassion are weaknesses to be repudiated.

The libertarian would plant himself on a rock and hope to survive. The Communist (think North Korea) would plant himself in a swamp and hope to survive. Vegetation can survive on rocks and in the waters of swamps, but the plants that are most useful to humans, the most nourishing and most easily harvested grow in top soil that is rich in minerals (the rock) but also moist. So, the best environment is neither the rocks of the libertarian nor the swamp of Communism.

Especially in times of need, the strong must help the weak if a society is to survive. This is true of a family, but also of a country and even of the world.

This recession appears to be global in scope. Many families will find themselves unable to support their members. The family as a functioning unit will need to turn to a larger social structure for help. The most efficient such structure is the government. Churches can help, but churches are sectarian. They exclude. They do not represent the interests of all. Government is democratically elected. Churches are self-appointed.

Therefore, not only must people everywhere in each country offer their strengths to others in their country to make sure that the needs of all are met, but also, the government, i.e., the body that represents the will of the majority of the people, of every country must work with other countries to make sure needs are met.

Let me give you an example. As a nation, United States can offer its can-do philosophy, its optimism, its flexibility in approaching problem solving, but only if it's political and social system permit these qualities to become stronger than the traits of pessimism and conservatism. In times like this, fear makes us less resourceful. Wishing to hold on to what we have prevents us from accepting what is new. Refusing to give up ideas that have not worked causes us to repeat our mistakes. So, in order to survive we have to work together, to try new ideas, many of which will not succeed, but to try them anyway.

Am I describing a national move toward the left? Maybe. But after the last 28 years since the Reagan election, I would say it is a move toward the center -- to a good happy medium between excessive, narcissistic, individualism and excessive conformism (a virtual unknown in American history).

Libertarianism will always appeal to a minority of people who have little social intelligence, people who cannot experience love for one reason or the other, but it is not the American way. In fact, it is not the human way. It is eccentric.

As for conservatism, it's time has passed. We are in a serious recession. No one wants to hold on to the status quo. At this point, we need bold, new ideas and the courage to act on them. If you want to call that a move to the left, so be it.

[justabob]

12. I agree up to a point

I am not particularly interested in entitlements so much, but I do think it would be great to use the government to prevent the predatory nature that so many businesses/industries have developed and flourished in the last decade(but going back much farther). What I am trying to say is that I don't want to depend on anyone to give me anything, just to help me prevent others from TAKING so much. Does that make any sense?

[slackmaster]

16. You make a lot of sense

...I don't want to depend on anyone to give me anything, just to help me prevent others from TAKING so much....

I would include government in the category of "others". They should take what is really needed to provide services that we all need and lend a hand to those who need it, and no more.

;-)

[FredStembottom]

2. I have been saying since the 80's........

....that only a new Depression would be able to dis-lodge the idea the Neo-Cons sold so easily: that you can live in America for free (with refund checks coming in the mail!). You can be a complete socio-path. You can hate your neighbor (and stockpile weapons against him). Just vote Republican and you are an island.

This idea fit the DNA of the the type of European who came to America in the first place: the loner, con-artist, cult-groupish, unsocialized types that Europe was happy to be rid of. The type we celebrate in our foundation myths. Miner 49's, Puritans, medicine show hawkers, and Capitalist bullies.

All that DNA is still here.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. I think that much of your portrayal of the early settlers is based on a modern myth--

and a destructive one, at that. Just as the Fundies like to (mis)portray our founders as Christians, so do the libertarians and others like to portray our ancestors as rugged independent types. I'm close enough to my own pioneer ancestry to know better. Those people built barns and houses for each other. They shared farm equipment and farmed together. Nobody could afford all the equipment necessary--one might have a steam tractor, another a portable sawmill, and another a threshing machine. They might all get together and log, then saw the boards on the portable mill using the steam tractor for power. Then in the fall they would pull the threshing machine from farm to farm with the steam tractor and work together to bring in the harvest from each farm in turn.

"Rugged individualism" is a pathological aberration in the species, and one that is going to get its comeuppance in the near future.

[FredStembottom]

6. Actually I agree with you.

That DNA is here, too. But I just think that places like America and Australia received an unusual, chart-skewing dose of the socio-pathic types from the rest of the world.

Crisis will now bring out that other side. The one you just described so well. :patriot:

P.S. Where I live we have Threshing shows that yearly re-enact that steam tractor ritual of shared farm labor you describe. Complete with giant steam tractors! Maybe my favorite Fall event of all. Hope you have that where you live, too!

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Yes, we have steam shows.

These days, they're not just steam, but antique equipment shows. I love that stuff, and we go for an afternoon most years.

And incidentally, I think psychopathy is probably not primarily genetically determined. In most cases I've seen, there is an early bonding failure between the infant and the primary caregiver (usually the mother). The critical period appears to be between the 12th and 24th month of life, when the right orbitofrontal cortex of the brain is undergoing rapid development. If the right experiences don't happen, the child's ROFC doesn't develop as many dendritic connections, and its ability to develop empathy seems to be permanently impaired.

[FredStembottom]

9. I have never really settled the Nature/Nurture thing in my mind.

And have defaulted to a 50/50 position. There seems to be good cases for both - so I have decided to assume that both exert an effect - which one dominates is probably different for each of us.

[Jackpine Radical]

14. I think most psychopathology is triggered by environmental events, but

the particular form that the pathology take may be partially determined by one' genetic endowment. The environmental/genetic mixes are different for different circumstances.

[JDPriestly]

11. I'm sure you are right about the bonding failure.

That is why we see so much mental illness in our society. That is why so many of our children are disturbed. Parents need to focus on their small children, not on other things. Unfortunately, our society does not permit parents to focus on their children during that crucial period.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Much of what appears to be genetic seems actually to be families passidng down

their screwed-up childrearing practices. Each generation beats, abuses, neglects the next generation, which in turn re-enacts what was done to them upon their own children.

[JDPriestly]

17. They should allow the public to sit in on dependency court proceedings.

That is where they take kids away from abusive parents. A morning there would educate the public. They should get Judge Judy to spend a day in dependency court. They could blot out the faces of the families before the court. That would be a huge favorite as a TV show and teach a lot of people about what abuse really is. A lot of parents think they are doing the right thing for their children when in fact they are abusing their children and alienating them not only from the parents but from themselves for life.

Parent education should be required for all pregnant women and their significant others.

[JDPriestly]

10. Jackpine Radical.

My ancestors settled the Indiana territory and moved west. You are right. The settlers lived dangerous lives. They feared natural enemies. They feared Indians. They feared outlaws. They joined together to form communities and governments. They built barns and houses together. The American quilt symbolizes the pioneer society. Women made their clothes from feed sacks. They kept the scraps left from cutting out the pieces of their clothes and sewed them together into patterns. Then the women joined together to quilt the patched cover of the quilt to the batting and the back of the quilt.

The quilt is our proof of the social fabric of our nation -- created by neighbors working together.

If you go to rural areas of the midwest, you will find lovely, albeit simple churches. My ancestors helped to build some of those churches. And I know they did not build them alone, and they did not just pay contractors to come in and do the work. The community built those churches. The men and women worked together. They donated money, but also time.

Before the era of the corporate farm, farmers harvested together. They moved from one neighbor's field to the next. This was a common practice. This is our American heritage. We are strong individualists, but we combine our strength to form a strong society. That is our heritage. That is what has made us great.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. We are individuals in our opinions and beliefs, but

have a strong history of communualism in our economic and social lives.

So much of your brief report of your history rings bells for me. My family came over from Denmark in the early 1870's, settled for a while in Indiana and then in the early 90's moved on to South Dakota. In 1910 they moved again, most of them going to Saskatchewan but my grandfather and one of his brothers brought their families to Wisconsin. My grandfather was a logger, a sawmill operator, a carpenter, a blacksmith, and on some occasions a road contractor. It's something of a tradition in my family to do a lot of different things.

[zorahopkins]

5. Excellent Post!

It uuill be a uuonderful day uuhen uue are finally rid of all of that DNA!

Note: In protest of the continuing occupation of OUR Uuhite House by the illegal and totally corrupt Bush/Cheney regime of thugs and cronies, I REFUSE to use the letter betuueen "V" and "X". Instead, I use a "double u" -- "Uuhite House", for instance.