Why do the Repubicmotherfuckers want Chapter 11?

[Stinky The Clown]

To break the UAW.

End

Of

Story.

[Idealism]

1. Of course, a recent poll said 80% of people wouldn't buy a car from a Chapter 11 company

"But it worked for american airlines!" -GOP talking point

You buy a ticket, one time deal. They can't cancel your flight in-air and if the service sucks you only have to deal with it for a few hours, usually.

Your warranty however is a paper document. You have a car for years, and want the assurance the company won't dissapear and further depreciate that already crappy possibility of returns on your large investment.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

2. Detroit is going to use the bailout to fund Chapter 11

the only reason the Detroit automakers have no already used Chapter 11 to break the UAW is because they lack the funds to do so and under-capitalized Chapter 11 cases run a high risk of liquidation.

Make no mistake - Detroit is going to file Chapter 11 they just made you feel warm and fuzzy about paying for it.

[Idealism]

4. Wrong, Ford doesn't even need any money to stay afloat

Chrysler has been looking to be sold since they hired Nardelli, and probably will be absorbed by Ford. GM will be fine if they can get their creditors to renegotiate their debt.

Stop preaching your libertarian propaganda here, seriously. You've hijacked enough threads to trash the Auto makers.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

10. your hopelessly naive

You also think the national champion for badly bungled outsourcing Alan Mulally is going to be some champion of the Ford worker.

The bailouts are a scam, it is a final gift to corporate america before the Bush regime and neo-conservatism is banished to the wilderness for a generation, the bailout for Detroit is the debtor in possession financing for their Chapter 11's that they couldn't obtain on the open market.

There is no greater example of the marxist concept of cultural hegemony than the bailouts, the workers have been convinced that not only is letting corporations steal a trillion dollars in their best interests, helping corporations steal that trillion dollars is a cause for them to fight for.

[Idealism]

11. Take your hatred for American auto makers elsewhere, seriously

I've given you Mulally's record, had Detroit workers talk about how respected he was, and how Ford is doing the best of any domestic automaker, yet all you do is trash the guy and the company. You blame the guy for mismanagement problems that occured years after he took another job. Thats realistic.

You don't belong on these message boards with your clear hatred for labor

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. So your going to blame Obama for landmines Bush leaves behind?

Mulally was the champion of the aggressive "outsource everything" policy at Boeing and that has since turned to shit and he ran for the exit just as the problems in the 787 program were coming to light. I don't think your going to blame Obama when some fucked up Bush policy implodes next year.

You don't belong on these message boards with your clear support for outsourcing executives.

[Idealism]

14. Too bad Mulally didn't engineer, create, or map the 787 concept.

Too bad he took a pay raise and promotion to a bigger company

Too bad he has turned Ford aroound and led them to their first profitable quarter over two years.

Too bad thanks to Mulally replacing middle management and restructuring the company, Fords quality now rivals the best of Japanese automakers, even while Mulally cut Fords costs.

Too bad outsourcing is a government created problem and has nothing to do with Mulally.

Too bad for all these facts, and too bad for your prejudice against the man whom the workers say they like and respect.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

16. Nothing to do with Mulally?

Mulally was the driving force behind outsourcing at Boeing, he was praised at large for redefining the way airliners would be built. The outsourcing that Mulally pushed so hard for has since turned into the worst crisis faced by The Boeing Company in more than a generation and you believe he has no responsibility?

What makes you think that such an ideological driven outsourcer an won't try to do the same at Ford?

I'm sure the plans are already in the works pending the breaking of the UAW contract in bankruptcy.

[Idealism]

20. Worst crisis faced by Boeing? Laughable

They are the top aircraft manufacturer in the world, having overtook Airbus a few years back (when Mulally was doing a damn good job after saving Boeing once from bankruptcy).

If you are against outsourcing look no further than the government for the blame there, they make it perfectly legal, and in some cases, the only way a company can cut costs. I am not for outsourcing, but in this globalized capitalist bullshit world, every big business does it.

Another point: You say the 787 plan called for outsourcing. It called for greater cohesion within Boeings supply line, are you so ignorant that you don't realize Boeing buys parts from other companies? They don't built an airplane in house from scratch, in case you haven't noticed.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

23. Mulally "overtook" airbus with orders for a plane they can't deliver

And ofcourse Boeing buys parts from other companies, but outsourcing entire sections of the airframe that were supposed to arrive in Seattle pre-stuffed and ready for final assembly as planned by Mulally has been a total failure as sub-contractors chosen not for their technical competence but for the subsidies offered by their jurisdiction have fallen down on the job over and over again.

And it is a crisis, the plane is already two years late and as they miss each contractual delivery date on a plane they begin to face compounding penalties for missing that delivery date and those penalties cascade through the entire program - if the delays are long enough it threatens the profitability of the entire program and it allows customers not only to cancel without penalties but to seek compensation from Boeing.

There is a difference between buying a landing gear from Goodrich and a radar from Raytheon and turning over the entire airframe to marginal contractors. Or in Mulally speak boeing isn't in the manufacturing business it is in the complex system integration business.

[Idealism]

27. As I already pointed out to you

They are the top manufacturer, not "projected", not "in the future will be." They already are.

And as I've already said to you, Mulally didn't design the plane, didn't map the concept, all he did was hire the engineering directors. In the early 1990s when Boeing was facing bankruptcy and they hired Mulally, I suppose it was his predecessor who brought the from the edge of bankruptcy-- just because of course HE didn't have anything to do with it because HE isn't a good CEO.

You really don't belong here.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. 2007 Deliveries: Airbus 453 - Boeing 441

2008 numbers don't matter because they will be so skewed in favor of Airbus because of the Boeing IAM strike.

Mulally joined Boeing fresh out of school in 1969 and did not become President of Boeing Commercial until 1998 and as president of Boeing Commercial Aircraft his priority was to outsource all future aircraft so much that only final assembly of pre-stuffed, just-in-time components would take place in Seattle. The purpose of this strategy was to reduce the role of IAM labor to an absolute minimum.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. So ..... bny your reckoning, Richard Sheldy is the goodest of the good guys?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Fuck No

more like a broken clock is right twice a day, Shelby and Sessions also voted against the Wallstreet bailout.

[olegramps]

17. Why are you posting here? This is not a Republican anti-labor board?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. Why do you want to help Detroit break the UAW?

The bailout will be used to finance their bankruptcies where the contracts will be broken, without the bailout they are unlikely to file for bankruptcy because the risk of liquidation is much too high without debtor in possession financing in place.

[Idealism]

21. Are you blind!? So you think not giving the companies money will ensure the UAW will prosper?

Wow. Seriously go back to Freeperville

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. No, but giving them their DIP financing will ensure the UAW won't

Without the bailout it is too risky for Detroit to go into bankruptcy - with the bailout they can get everything they want out of a Chapter 11 re-organization with minimal risk.

[Idealism]

26. They won't go into Ch 11

No one will buy a car from a bankrupt company. Polls confirmed this already, but keep spouting off about it.

The UAW will undoubtably be screwed if Detroit goes under, where do you think they're going to get a decent paying job, some Right to Work state that doesn't allow unions in a Kia plant? You need to start looking at things from another perspective than the libertarian view you currently have.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. and that is why the bailout is so important to the executives

Because nobody will buy a car from a bankrupt company they need alternative financing to see them through the bankruptcy process, because debtor in possession finacing is basically impossible to obtain under these circumstances they can only turn to the federal government.

The bailout is needed to see them through some very lean years while they are under bankruptcy protection. Ford and Chrysler will probably need about two years in Chapter 11 before re-emerging to get done what the executives want done, GM atleast three.

[deaniac21]

34. Chrysler is owned by the Cerebus Group who are also trying

to buy GM.

[HereSince1628]

3. I think they just want to put the American 3 out of business

Few consumers would commit $20,000 on a car that wasn't going to have a warrantee and parts available for 5-10 years to come...

Bankruptcy would place those things at risk and crush car sales.

Southern states are playing the game for the benefit of their foreign named auto-assembly plant

If it kills the UAW their fine with that, but that would be icing on the cake.

[INdemo]

5. And the big three probably don't fill the pockets of the Repukes the

way Wall St. did.They certainly didnt put the banks through this BS when they were debating a bail out....I blame the Democrats and Republicans alike for failure to act on the Auto loans compared to bailing out the banks.. And they didn't really bail out the banks ....They saved those execs that lost their ass in hedge funds...There are very few small businesses and small manufacturing shops that aren't connected to the auto industry in some way.........
But you are correct..The very first ruling a bankruptcy judge would make would be to void the union contract.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. My guess is to wipe out pensions and health care.

Greedy bastards

[ohtransplant]

7. Simple...Unions

They may not have planned it but they see a tantalizing combo here - step on the necks of the domestic auto makers and crush organized labor at the same time. It's too good (in their minds) to pass up. Ole' Shelby can barely contain himself.

The war on working people continues.

I hope the debate catches the pugs in all their glory - to be recorded for posterity. The backlash will be large and lengthy.

When "their" industries come calling, I hope the Dems have the spines to send them packing. (Yeah, right. I know...)

edit:sp

[ogneopasno]

8. It's that simple.

[vssmith]

9. They want to finish what Reagan started with the Air Traffic Controllers

[Festivito]

18. That's just gravy. They just don't want us to go loan by loan.

At least not from the view of the consumer, they want the taxpayer to bail the banker at the inflated price and make the homeowner eat it, rather than deflate the loan and make the banker eat it.

If it kills unions in the mean time, all the better for the Republican ilk.

[ljm2002]

22. That is exactly right...

...and that is why it is Republics who are arguing most strongly against a bailout for the automobile industry.

And for all those workers who paid into a pension fund to provide for their golden years? "And for you, a hearty handshake!" or more accurately, "And for you, a fat F*** You!"

[TheKentuckian]

25. You know the usual...union busting, hosing the American worker, spreading poverty,

serving their foreign masters, and general destruction of any hope of an American Dream.

[moondust]

28. Unions are an inconvenient obstacle

on the road to feudalism? Slavery? Extermination of the poor?

[malaise]

31. To destroy the union

That simple

[spanone]

32. that would end their obligation to the uaw.....end of story

[Bozita]

33. Chapter 11 would be a goodbye kiss to the middle class from the Repiglicons