Aw...The Cute, Gay-Hating Boy Scouts are on The Today Show!

[stopbush]

It's good they found that missing kid in NC. I wonder why Ms Viera didn't bother asking the scouts and their leader what
the Scouts are doing that would make a kid want to run away from his pack and head home.

Also, no mention whatsoever that the BSA openly discriminates against gays. That's all I see when I see their brown shirts and badges:
gay-hating bigots...and that's the reason my son will never be a scout.

[terrya]

1. Backed by the Supreme Court of the United States

I can only hope that somewhere in the future, the BSA will realize that being a Boy Scout has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

[DemKR]

2. The media loves boy scouts

This will be spun as "Join the boy scouts and you'll learn the appropriate techniques when you're missing!" How about, um, Mom says no going into wooded areas by yourself and carry a cell phone? Not hard.

[bryant69]

3. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone defended the Boy Scouts

Unfortunately I'm a coward so won't.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[johnnie]

4. It's not worth it

Like it is the 10 and 11 year old kids fault. :eyes:

[Squatch]

5. I am a former Boy Scout

Earned my Eagle Scout back in the 1980's.

Funny thing is...I don't recall much gay-hating. Mostly, we spent our energy planning outings.

My son, when he is old enough, will be joining the BSA. I look forward to our shared experiences.

[stopbush]

6. You don't recall "much" gay hating, so I assume you recall "some" gay hating.

Do Scouts need to openly and verbally express their hatred for gays on an individual basis when the BSA's official, SCOTUS-sanctioned policy openly discriminates against them?
I'd say that if you sign up for the Scouts, you sign up for and endorse the bigotry they openly express aganst gays.

I assume that's one of the shared experiences you'll be looking forward to sharing with your son. Who knows? Maybe when he's old enough to be a Scout, he'll reject the bigotry
that you embrace. My kid is 13 and he has no problem at all identifying and challenging the kind of soft bigotry that we let slide back when I was his age. Life is full of surprises.

[bryant69]

7. So you think Squatch is a Bigot?

Or am I misreading you?

Bryant

[Squatch]

8. No, you're not. He's calling me a bigot.

He's got the "Broad Brush" out today.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

10. I guess I'm a Bigot by your definition as well then

But somehow I'm able to go on living with myself.

You don't want to hear a defense; what you want is more ammunition with which to torpedo those who disagree with you. If you wanted real discussion you wouldn't be hitting the bigot button so early and so often.

Bryant

[stopbush]

12. It's not my definition.

Merriam-Webster defines a bigot as "one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance," and
defines bigotry as the "acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot."

I'd like to hear your defense of the BSA. You've entered the fray, why run away? Yes, I'd like to hear how the BSA discriminating against gays doesn't
fit the dictionary definition of bigotry. I'm hitting the bigot button early and often because that ugly word perfectly expresses the ugliness of the
discrimination against gays that is practiced as policy by the BSA.

You're welcome to disabuse me of my notions. Have at it.

[bryant69]

15. Yeah but even if I did, why would you listen to the ramblings of a bigot?

I mean if I'm a bigot, why would what I have to say have any validity?

Bryant

[Duncan Grant]

20. I'm a former gay scout. I'd be interested in what you have to say. (nt)

[bryant69]

24. Once again I'm going to play the "Coward" card

But I assume you were a former scout not formally gay? Just for clarification.

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

63. How odd....

a poster with a name just like yours called me a bigot just the other day, because I said religious expresions like "Have a blessed day" seemed insincere to me.

Funny, inn't it?

[bryant69]

68. I remember that

And despite your rather self serving review of that conversation, what you said was indeed bigoted.

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

69. so it's fine when you throw the word around

but if anybody says it about you, it's a great offense? Got it.

[bryant69]

72. I suppose your right

If I am going to be accuse you of bigotry for getting offended at being wished a nice day in the Christian Idiom, I have to accept the label of bigot for being insufficiently angry at the Boy Scout's policy of homosexuality.

You can take some comfort in knowing that your views on Christianity, that even mild expressions of public Christianity are offensive, seems to be the dominant view at DU.

At any rate I accept the label of Bigot, should you wish to use that on me.

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

79. no thanks

I wouldn't dream of using that word against someone I don't know.

[bryant69]

81. laughs - well aren't you noble

Hmmmm. So if you saw a guy burning a cross you'd go over and take them out to lunch and get to know them before assuming they were bigoted?

Bryant

[Radical Activist]

23. I spent years in the scouts

I never once heard anyone at any scout function "openly and verbally express their hatred of gays." Not once.

Its a bad policy but you're going overboard to paint Scouts and the organization as hateful monsters.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. As a former Boy Scout and Eagle Scout

I can also say that I NEVER heard any gay-bashing, and in fact one of my former troop members is now out of the closet.

However, the BSA are heavy into religious indoctrination and won't allow atheists (which I am) to join. I did listen to lots of nonbeliever bashing in the Boy Scouts. Because of that (and other issues like their strict anti-gay policies) my son will never be a part of the Boy Scouts.

[Maine-ah]

96. same goes here

hubbie was a BS, and I a GS.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Me too

Back in the 70's. I can't say as I rmemeber any more gay-bashing in the BSA than in a standard group of 13-15 year old boys.

[Radical Activist]

22. I was also an Eagle Scout.

Its a great program and its a shame the name of the Boy Scouts gets tarnished by their policy on gays.

I never heard any gay bashing either. The only cases I've seen of anyone getting kicked out are leaders who appeared in the newspaper talking about their orientation. It didn't result from some kind of search or mission to find anyone out. I think the claims of gay witch-hunts in the boy scouts are overblown and unfair.

[Arugula Latte]

86. R.A., I'm sure you're right to some extent.

However, when good people continue to join the Scouts it enables an officially anti-gay organization to continue their official anti-gay policies. That is wrong, no matter how you spin it.

[Arugula Latte]

85. Why don't you start your own boys group rather than enabling an anti-gay organization?

We did. If you want details, please PM me. :hi:

[Bluebear]

17. Do go ahead and defend them if you care to.

Why is their discrimination against gays OK with you?

(Just guessing: because they are a private organization and it's in the Bible, but let's see.)

[bryant69]

19. Nah - I already explained that I'm a coward

Frankly my week is going shitty enough without picking a fight on this particular issue.

Bryant

[Jamastiene]

45. Well, at least you are owning your big ol' yellow streak there.

What kind of badge do the BSA give for that, I wonder? :think:

[bryant69]

73. I don't think they give one for cowardness

I could be wrong.

Bryant

[texastoast]

51. I'm not afraid to

so get your popcorn.

The Scout organization is indefensible on its stance on gays. True Christians would embrace with love all other people. Period. And it is not the Scouts who have trouble with gays--it's the PARENTS and the SCOUT LEADERS who put their principles aside, for after all, quoting below: "He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own." So, the PARENTS and LEADERS are very hypocritical on this issue.

The nation is indefensible in allowing free use of facilities for a group that requires belief in, um, "God."

Scouts have more training in environmentalism than anyone who attends public school only.

Scouting is very socialistic. It's about family and community, doing your part, and helping those who cannot.

Our shit-for-brains selectident could certainly strive to come up to the level of self-discipline Scouts work toward. There's not a damned thing wrong with any of these character traits.

TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

BTW, I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU and was a Scouter for 17 years. Neither the Scouts nor the ACLU is a perfect organization judging by what I term perfect. You have to take the good with the crap sometimes.

[Stuckinthebush]

97. Another Eagle Scout here

1984 I think.

Anyway, there was never any homophobia, racism or sexism permitted in our troop. Our troop leader was a progressive minded man who didn't tolerate that kind of nonsense. I remember once a scout laughingly using the word "fag" and the leader was all over him. We had a nice lecture about using that type of language and to not use words that hurt other groups.

So, at the individual troop level, I think that there are some great leaders and troops. The lessons learned in scouting were incredible. I have three daughters and tried to get them in girl scouts but we were denied entry into our local troop because "it was full". We found out later that we didn't belong in the club of mommies that had their daughters in, and that other children were let in after our request because their mommies were part of "the club". After discussing it with the local Girl Scout office, we were told we could start a new troop and be leaders but they weren't going to do anything about it. So, my experience with Boy Scouts was much better than Girl Scouts. Just an observation.

[Jacobin]

11. Here's something that troubles me

I was in the Boy Scouts eons ago and this gay thing never came up at all, nada, zip.

However. If a gay male scout leader wanted to take teenage boys on a camping trip, would that be any different from a straight male scout leader taking a bunch of teenage girl scouts on a camping trip? And if so, how?

(putting on flame retardant suit)

[stopbush]

13. You are making the classic mistake of equating pedophilia against

boys as being a gay problem. You liken it unto a straight male attacking girls.

There is no correlation whatsoever between gay adults and pedophilia against boys. None whatsoever. In fact, if you look at the
sorry instances of adult sexual attacks against boy scouts, it is not gays who are attacking them, it is "straight" pedophiles. Pedophilia
is not a condition that finds its roots in sexual orientation. That's a convenient myth that too many in this country accept as truth.

I'm surprised and disappointed that you've made such a comparison. I always assume that DUers are more enlightened than the typical
blogger. Looks like there's plenty of work to do on this issue in our own house.

[Jacobin]

14. I don't think most parents

of teenage girls would allow their daughters to go on a camping trip with a male scout leader.

Are they presuming straights are pedophiles?

[bullwinkle428]

35. I spent several summers attending "sleepaway camps",

with boys and girls, and male and female counselors all together in the same general area, and there were never any problems. Your assertion doesn't appear to hold a lot of water as far as my experience goes...

[Jacobin]

36. When I was in the boy scouts

it was a long time ago. Like in the 50's and 60's. We had camping jamborees with hundreds of kids, but only boys were around. Things may be different now. I don't know.

Most of the camping trips we had were just a dozen or two scouts with one scoutmaster sleeping in tents.

I can tell you that parents I know would not allow a dozen or so teenage girl scouts to go on an overnight camping trip with a male scoutmaster.

[AllegroRondo]

39. I am a male Girl Scout leader

and I *have* gone on camping trips with my daughters troop.

Granted, I was never the only adult there, and adults never sleep in the same tents as the girls. But the parents didnt have any problems with it. And it was a great opportunity to teach the kids some of the outdoor survival skills I picked up in the military.

[Jamastiene]

52. Precisely.

Some people need to make really big leaps in their own dirty minds sometimes, IMHO. Kids love to learn survival skills and those skills are in short supply in this day and age. We have moved so far from a point where we can cope with something as simple as losing electricity for 3 days due to a bad storm. Learning simple survival techniques should be something every parent wants for their child.

[AllegroRondo]

64. they were surprized by some of the simplest things

"you can eat plants? ones you just find outside?"

[Jamastiene]

98. Can I ask you for an opinion on something?

I don't know whether you watch the television show called Survivor, but while I was staying at my mother's house a few years ago, she watched it, so I by proxy watched too. I noticed those people having a really hard time making fire and noticed there was always at least one person there with glasses on. I know you can use a magnifying glass to start fire using the sun's rays, because I used to do solar etching. Basically, I would burn (using the sun's ray through the magnifying glass) family names ( i.e. The Smith Family, The Jones Family) into nice looking wooden signs for people to hang in front of their houses as decorations. On more than one occasion a neighbor, who was a teacher would bring hot dog weenies over and suggest we make a small fire in her bbq pit to cook them on breaks.

Long story, I know, sorry. But my question is why do those people never try using the sun glasses to start fire. It seems like it would use way less energy and get fire sooner for them. I was just wondering what your opinion is on that. Thanks in advance. I love learning about survival techniques myself even as an adult.

[bullwinkle428]

60. This would have been in the early-mid 1970s for me...

[bullwinkle428]

65. The camp that I attended is alive and well and still thriving today -

Google is my friend!

http://www.camplakeland.com/

Being a kid today is so much cooler - they didn't have the go-karts, driving range, mountain biking, mountain boarding, ropes course, etc. when I attended 30+ years ago!

[Jamastiene]

50. Actually, many many parents allow it and often.

Church groups in my area do camping trips all the time. At least half that time, males are the chaperones and lots of young girls, and teenage girls at that, go. Pedophilia is in the same category as rape. It's not about sex. It's about control. Sexual orientation is really not the issue. It's pedophilia. I wonder why the BSA didn't ban pedophiles from their organization. If they were so concerned about pedophila, why did they feel the need to go picking on gay people instead of addressing the issue of pedophilia directly? They should have banned pedophiles instead if they really wanted to solve their problems.

[Radical Activist]

25. A boy can be in scouts until they turn 18.

Since 16 is the legal age of consent in many states, we aren't just talking about pedophilia.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. You'd need to go into more detail to convince me.

You say "There is no correlation whatsoever between gay adults and pedophilia against boys". Taken literally, this is clearly untrue - anyone who sexually assaults children of the same gender as themself is, at least semantically, homo/bisexual.

Do you mean that there's no correlation between propensity to attack children of one gender or the other and overt sexual orientation? Or no correlation with sexual attraction to adult members of one gender or the other? If so, can you provide any links, please? It's a sufficiently surprising claim that I'm disinclined to believe it without reputable sources, I'm afraid.

[stopbush]

44. "Sufficienly surprising?"...or are you just uninformed?

You can easily do your own research on the net, unless you can't spare the time it takes to type in a search.

But, I'll play along. Here's an article from UC Davis: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

You get one freebie and that's it.

[gollygee]

48. That isn't my understanding

I used to write for a newspaper, and we had a really high Child Sexual Conduct rate in the area where I was writing back then, so I wrote a series of articles about it. The main prosecutor I talked to said that in regard to molestation of pre-pubescent children anyway, men who prefer women in their adult relationships (so men who are presumably straight) seem to often molest boys. Some just molest whoever is convenient regardless of whether they are boys or girls. I don't have any links or anything but that's what the prosecutor who was in charge of CSC cases at that time in that city told me.

Do you have any sources to the contrary? Because I'm going to believe what I was told back then unless I'm given better information.

[cboy4]

32. But here's the thing. Gay male scout leaders ARE currently taking

teenage boys on camping trips. They are just not "out."

Just as gay male PE teachers and coaches are around their male students/athletes in the locker room.

Just as gay male swim team and other sports coaches are around male kids.

Parents who have hang-ups about these situations definitely are unjustly associating pedophilia with homosexuality.

You may not like to hear this, but sometimes, the truth hurts.

[Radical Activist]

33. I think top scout leaders know this.

The only cases I've read about where scout leaders were banned from the organization are when a local leader comes out publicly, such as appearing in a newspaper article about the local pride parade. At that point, the organization is forced to confront the issue, and sadly, I don't think most parents would back up the BSA if they allowed openly gay men to continue leading scout troops.
I've never seen any evidence of the BSA going after closeted scout leaders.

[cboy4]

37. That makes me feel a lot better knowing you've not seen any

evidence of the BSA going after closeted scout leaders. :sarcasm:

They shouldn't have to be in the closet dude.

It's 2007...not 1977.

What exactly are you afraid is going to happen if gay scout leaders are allowed to work for BSA?

[Radical Activist]

41. I'm just correcting

assertions I hear all the time that the BSA is on some kind of rabid witch-hunt to out scout leaders. Nothing is gained by exaggerating the issue in some kind of attempt to make the boy scouts look like the KKK.

If gay scout leaders were allowed to work for the BSA I would assume that the Mormon and Baptist churches (the two biggest sponsors of scout troops) would withdrawal from the organization. They wouldn't have much of an organization left. That's what I think would happen, to answer your question.

Personally, I think they should let each individual scout troop make their own policy. That way, the churches that sponsor troops can have a policy that doesn't conflict with their own beliefs, but troops that are fine with a gay scout leader can have one.

[cboy4]

54. It would be a much better situation if the Boy Scouts were

set up like Little League in every community throughout America.

No questions are asked about whether the coaches are gay.

Do background checks on coaches to see if they have criminal records of child abuse if need be.

But I think it's absolutely wrong to prohibit individuals from working around kids just because they're gay.

And furthermore, even if these churches were to abandon the BSA....you seriously think the Boy Scouts would be finished?

I don't.

Other organization would surely come forward to take over and keep things going.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. The assumption that gay people have no control over themselves is maddening. n/t

[cboy4]

49. And that's puting it mildly! n/t

[JackBeck]

34. I don't see a problem with either of your examples.

As long as neither of the Scout Leaders are pedophiles.

[donco6]

47. OK, Brave One, here goes:

I'm a gay man. Never, ever in my entire life have I ever desired sex with a boy. Not even when I WAS a boy! My age or older, yeah. Now I know there are people out there who crave that for some unknown reason, but eliminating gays from scouting won't solve that problem. There are plenty of otherwise "straight" men who would endulge their pedophilia with little boys on a campout. It's not a "gay" thing, it's a human thing, and the scouts are very dangerously mistaken if they think they've eliminated the possibility by banning gays.

[Mad_Dem_X]

92. Well said! n/t

[northzax]

53. that's because you were a scout

before the Southern Baptists and Mormons took the freaking thing over.

I was a scout in the 80's (topped out at Life, back then you had to be 16 to go Eagle, and I couldn't see myself waiting two years to rise one more rank and then top out. Anyway, even in the heartland of America, I had a gay scoutmaster. did I know he was gay? no, didn't even think about it. but then, at some point years later, I was thinking and it just hit me (so I asked my mom and she replied "of course, you didn't know that?) now, of course, the wingnuts running scouting have made a big deal about it.

what I think is really sad for the scouts on this whole thing is how people panicked to find the missing kid. I mean good, you found him, but he's a fucking Boy Scout, shouldn't he be able to hack a night or two in the woods? Kinda the whole point, right?

[gravity]

18. The discussion wasn't about gay boy scouts

They were talking about the missing boy.

I disagree with their policy about gays too, but it doesn't mean that every time the organization is on TV, you have to bring that up. The purpose of their organization is not to hate gays, so bringing it up just marginalizes the disappearance of the boy.

Also don't assume the all boy scouts are gay hating bigots, because it just makes you as bigoted as they are.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. My two kids are cub scouts and I will be damned if I let them

grow up to be bigots.

[WI_DEM]

26. it sounds like according to this thread that there are several members of DU who were boy scouts

(I'm one too) who did not grow up to be bigots.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

28. So you're not 'cowardly' enough to snipe, just to explain yourself?

??

[bryant69]

30. Yep - you see i am only 2/3rds cowardly

Or, to be more precise, my cowardice quotient (or C.Q.) is 78.5%

If I were completely cowardly I would have followed my first instinct and not posted at all.

Bryant

[WI_DEM]

43. Whatever

[seemunkee]

29. Former Scout and leader

I was a scout for many years and was a leader when my son was a cub. When the SCOTUS ruling came out we both decided that it was time to separate from the Scouts.
Its a shame. I enjoyed my time as a Scout and learned a lot about the outdoors that is still important to me today. I met my oldest friend and camping/climbing partner in the Scouts 37 years ago.

I don't see why this has anything to do with the story about the kid getting lost though.

[stopbush]

31. It has something to do with today's story for me and a number of other

posters because the BSA has an anti-gay policy. Their uniforms may say "clean little god-fearing help-the-old-lady-across-the-street do-goodniks" to most
people. To me, the uniform serves as a reminder of the bigotry that the adults who run the BSA have embraced as policy.

Until they overturn that policy, that's all they represent, because such bigotry in this day and age far overshadows any good that the BSA may do.

AFAIC, any story on any given day about the BSA is - to me - about their discrimination, and worse, the media's wholehearted characterization of an openly
discriminatory group as a model of something that is good in this country. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just that important an issue to me.

[Raskolnik]

40. They're KIDS for Jebus' sake!

Of course the BSA is in the wrong when it comes to their stand on homosexuality, but I doubt very much that the kids you're calling "gay-hating bigots" are even aware of the policy's existence, much less that they hate gay people.

Do you really think Meredith Viera should have torn into a bunch of twelve-year-olds and demanded they explain and defend the BSA's policies?

[stopbush]

42. She could have asked their troop leader, couldn't she?

Maybe the kids don't know about the policy. Is it right not to tell them?

Here's the deal: the BSA has an openly anti-gay policy. It's public record, and they took it all the way to the SCOTUS. If they had an anti-woman policy or an anti-black policy, you can be sure that activists would be sure the public was aware of it every time the BSA made an appearance on TV, just like the media makes a big deal about the bigotry of the KKK every time they show up on TV. But since the discrimination is against gays, it's conveniently forgotten or actively avoided whenever the BSA makes an appearance. Worse, the media holds the BSA up as some paragon of virtue. The fact that the BSA chooses to surround their spokesmen with kids to take the heat off speaks ill of them and the media that looks the other way when it comes to this repugnant policy.

Let's face it - there is no heat on the BSA and their anti-gay policy because in 2007 America it is just Jim Dandy to discriminate against gay people. The fact that this open discrimination is charged up with uniformed and willfully mendacious claims of gays being somehow linked to pedophilia is disgraceful.

I firmly believe that the BSA will reverse this policy within the next decade. They'll do it because the rest of society will become more understanding of gays and less and less tolerant of bigotry in any form. At that point, I will be able to see the BSA for something other than the bigoted organization they now are, and I look forward to that day because it will mean that our nation has matured to the point where one more minority has gained the equality that was guaranteed to them by the Constitution.

Until that day, I will make sure that Americans - and Duers - are reminded of this policy. Its their policy, not mine, and if they aren't willing to parade that policy before the world then I'll do it for them.

[gravity]

55. What you are requesting is completely unreasonable right now

The kid got lost in the woods and almost died, and you start accusing the kid of being a bigot. You are making baseless accusations towards the kid right after he had a life threatening event.

I disagree with the boy scouts about how they treat homosexuals, but that's not the purpose of their orginization. Comparing them to the KKK is just ludacris. If it was the orginazation God hates fags, you would have a point, but you are sounding like an idiot in this case.

Like you said, they will probably reverse their policy in 10 years, so they are far from being a huge gay hating organization.

[texastoast]

59. De facto Scouts are much like Clinton--they don't ask

Let's just don't bring it up. They don't ask overtly whether a child is gay, or if their parents are gay, or even if they believe in God. It's all pretty unstated. Yes, the policies are written, but I don't recall having a philosophical discussion about it among the pack or troop in 17 years. I don't recall a parent ever having been asked about sexual orientation or religious beliefs (notice my avatar), and I don't recall a parent ever asking whether the policies were enforced.

[Raskolnik]

62. I'm not sure you understand the problem many of us are having with your position.

No one on this thread is defending the BSA's policy. No one on this thread is condoning discrimination. As much as you apparently feel otherwise, this isn't a contest about who dislikes anti-homosexual discrimination the most.

What many on this thread are taking issue with is your vehemence that a bunch of pre-teen kids who had nothing to with the policy and who probably have no feelings one way or the other about homosexuality should be referred to as "gay-hating bigots" and compared to the Brownshirts.

Do you honestly think that haranguing a bunch of kids (much less a kid that just had a near-death experience, for crap's sake!) because of the BSA's national policy is an effective way to change people's minds, or are you more concerned with letting the world know how morally superior you are to a kid that doesn't shave yet?

[riderinthestorm]

78. I believe the OP was wondering the boy left the camp because he was harassed

The leader wasn't asked why the boy may have felt like he needed to leave. Was he bullied and harassed and if so, why? Kids can be pretty cruel to anyone who is "different" and it seems like it would be a no-brainer question. Since the BSA have an open discrimination policy against gays and atheists, it would seem to be fair that perhaps the commentator could have pointed out the potential that the kid was picked on for... what? Being gay? An atheist? Wierd? Nerdy?

I'm not sure it's such a stretch that the interviewer couldn't have asked the troop leader about it, a leader who lost the damn kid under his watch in the first place. If the kid was "bored" (which is now the current raison d'etre for his leaving), why was that as well?

I'm not defending the kid leaving - he was clearly wrong to strike out on his own but exploring the "why" doesn't seem to be out of line. And if the leader doesn't really know "why" (or perhaps doesn't want to articulate the REAL reason why), I'd wonder about that too.

[Raskolnik]

82. And in the process, the OP called a bunch of kids "gay hating bigots" & compared them to Brownshirts

Which, in my opinion, is rather ridiculous.

[riderinthestorm]

83. An analogy too far, true dat.

I was going more by the OP than the rest of the posts.

For me personally, I do wonder about parents that push the Boy Scouts though, knowing about their bigotry and religious discrimination. This would seem to be a pretty big deal to progressives who care to pass those ideals along to their kids. My kids know (and the youngest is 10) why we don't shop at Walgreens for example (because of the BC issue and the pharmacists). We also don't patronize a local ice creamery (Oberweis Dairy) because of the bigoted, racist owner. I know it's tough since the Boy Scouts are in a unique position to potentially be such a great org for boys but sometimes that's the way things fall. I believe the BSA's policies are pretty heinous myself, so heinous that I boycott their fundraisers which is the only way I can make a statement, although I recognize that my boycott of the org is pretty easy for me to say since I only have girls.

[Raskolnik]

89. Not to quibble, but those statements were in the OP.

The issue here is *not* the propriety of the program. I doubt very much whether anyone on this board is going to defend their policy as either necessary or proper. The issue is whether a bunch of kids, one of whom just about died, should harangued about a backward policy they had nothing to do with, and most likely know nothing about.

[riderinthestorm]

91. He wasn't asking Ms. Viera to harangue the kids about the policy

he wished she would have asked them why the kid might have wanted to leave.

And you're right, my bad, he did call them brownshirts etc. in the OP - to be fair I have agreed with you that his analogy went too far whether it was in the OP and/or elsewhere.

[Raskolnik]

93. I don't think we disagree.

ps. I know I shouldn't, but I do still buy from Oberweis from time to time. That douchebag can make some tasty dairy, and that's just a fact.

[riderinthestorm]

94. LOL!!! I have it lucky, I can get ice cream from Cold Stone Creamery instead

of Oberweis which is actually a tad bit closer anyway. :7

True story, I had the Oberweis family keep their horses at my farm for many years and the mother was so awful, when their daughter finally got out of the horse phase I began my boycott right then and there - probably 15 years ago or more. Elaine Oberweis was such a bitch! Then of course her husband (now ex) got into politics and it was a slam dunk from then on for me.

[riderinthestorm]

56. The BSA are no different than orgs that won't allow blacks or Jews

for example, like those abominable country clubs that excluded Jews and Blacks. I'm finding it amazing that anyone would think it's okay to patronize or participate in an org that endorses and supports this kind of bigotry.

I have two girls so I never did participate in the whole Boy Scouting organization but I stopped buying BSA fundraising items the day the SCOTUS decision came down. I make a point of telling them when they are standing outside the grocery store soliciting for donations for wreaths, popcorn or whatever why I won't buy from them - leaders, scouts, hangers-on and all.

[DarbyUSMC]

57. Tell me what you think:

The scenario:

A guy comes to town; gets a job as a school bus driver; all the kids love him and want to ride on his bus. He volunteers to be the assistant scout master. The scouts start hanging around at his place on weekends and sometimes in the evenings. Parents and kids alike like him and feel kind of sorry for him as he has "confided" in many town folk that his wife was killed in an auto accident and that his son lives with his grandmother, the mother of the dead wife. He states he is trying to get custody but doesn't have enough money for lawyers at the moment. Some wonder why he lost custody but no one wants in be intrusive. He grows very close to one family in particular; both boys in the divorced mother's home are in his scout troop. He has many suppers with the family and one day while playing cards the mother catches him in a contradiction. No big deal. A little while down the road --- another contradiction/lie. Where he graduated; where his "foster parents" live (who weren't his foster parents, come to find out); where he lived before coming to the area ----- one and one aren't making two, if you will. No earth shaking information; no malice of forethought, so to speak, so the fibs are overlooked by all because hey, everyone likes him and it's a small town with broad minded people. After a couple of years rumors are going around the school but no one is 'fessing up to knowing anything. Suddenly he leaves the BSA troop in the small town to become the Scout Master in a town three miles away. He has bought property and is building a house in the first town where he still lives but him living there is no problem for the BSA in the nearby town because everyone likes the guy. The mother in the family he has adopted, so to speak, has concluded in her own mind, that he is asexual. She knows for a fact there was no wife and son as by now she and her children have met his "monster" parents who aren't monsters at all. They seem to dote on their son who is in his late 20's. Time goes on ----- a total of about eight years before one day the shit hits the fan and the naive town's people and the even goofier naive mother find out that the guy is gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They also find out that he has taken "advantage" of many of the scouts in both towns including the sons of the mother in the scenario.

No, all gay men aren't pedophiles or whatever term is appropriate for men who seduce young teens. However, now in those two towns, caution is used when anyone volunteers to be involved with the BSA. They'd prefer a married man with a son in the troop. No, that is no guarantee there won't be abuse.

Did anyone in town bring a suit against the BSA? No, not that I know of. Would they have had a leg to stand on? I don't know. So maybe these things have happened in other places; other towns or cities. Maybe the BSA is being too careful. Maybe it's all been swept under the rug as it was for years and years in churches, Catholic and otherwise.

And what of these boys who trusted this man? They don't want to talk about it. When I read about the missing scout in NC, the first thing I thought was "who was he with while the others were hiking?" The news we got here was that an adult leader had stayed behind with him because he didn't want to go on the hike. I heard that version twice but now am hearing that he wanted to hitch-hike home.

Because people have had and heard of situations like this as well as other kinds of abuses dealing with heterosexual teachers etc., they do not want to put their children in the hands of anyone. It may not be "right" but people in the BSA; people in communities base their opinions on their life experiences, IMO. It's sad that teachers are suspect if they hug a student. It's sad that a single man who loves children is turned away from the BSA, whether he's gay or straight. Maybe the blame should be placed where it belongs, on the criminals who prey on our children. They've made it a sorry world for all well meaning people who work with or deal with children in any way.

[kath]

58. I don't like the BSA's discrim. against gays, nor do I like their discrim against atheists.

Too bad there's not an INCLUSIVE organization for boys out there.

[Colobo]

61. The scouts are potentially good organization

That is sadly supported by a number of backward people. Still, many great people are in it, and I don't hold it against the kids.

I love Girl Scout Cookies by the way.

[riderinthestorm]

66. The Girl Scout org is different than Boy Scouts

The Girl Scouts' policy is inclusive of all girls regardless of sexuality, religion, disability etc. unlike the Boy Scouts which discriminate against gays. Someone mentioned above that the Boy Scouts also discriminate against atheists, is that true? "Out" atheists are also out? (heh)

[AllegroRondo]

67. Yes, I was "asked to leave" for being an atheist.

The Girl Scouts, however, didnt have a problem with it.

[riderinthestorm]

70. Ugh, another reason to continue my boycott of the BSA.

Sorry to hear about that for you.

My daughter loved Girl Scouts - stayed in all the way through high school, her leader however was over 80 years old for her Senior troop and my (very active) daughter chafed a bit at how this limited the selection of activities that the girls could/would go on. But I was always proud of them for ALWAYS considering this wonderful older woman when they decided what they were doing, always deciding with respect and inclusion of their leader.

She would have LOVED having you as a leaderthough - she's a hiker, camper, backpacker and all around nature girl. My second daughter just dropped out because her leader only organizes "girly-girl" things. LOL. I think it's fantastic that there are male leaders in the Girl Scouts - very cool.

[AllegroRondo]

76. She can always look around for another troop

Just check with your local Girl Scout council, and see what troops are organized in your area. Talk to the troop leaders and see what kinds of activities they are doing.

If its not practical or theres not a troop doing activities she likes, she can even sign up as an independant Girl Scout, and do activites on her own, through www.studio2b.org. (but I think her local council would still be involved) They started this a couple years ago for girls who lived in areas that didnt have troops. Girls pick what activities they want to do on their own, get the work validated by a parent, and they can earn awards just like girls in a regular troop.

This year, we let the girls pick and run what activities and badges they wanted to earn. 6 girls, so each one ran the show for a month. One girl liked fashion design, so I learned how to sew. One liked pets, so we volunteered at the humane society. We're even doing a pinewood derby (like the boys scouts) this year. I get to teach them about power tools.

[SidDithers]

75. Another reason not to love 'em...

Religious Principle, Declaration of
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no person can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, acknowledges the religious element in the development of youth members. However, the BSA is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious development. Its policy is that the organization or institution with which youth members are connected shall give definite attention to their religious life. Only adults willing to subscribe to this declaration of principle and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

http://www.scouting.org/identity/los/los.jsp?typ=los&how=alfa&wat=R

Rational thinkers need not apply.

Sid

[Bill McBlueState]

87. thanks for posting that

It boggles the mind that they don't say which god everyone's supposed to have an obligation to. Do you get to pick your favorite?

[Horse with no Name]

71. I looked at that picture of that kid

and we were ALL kids once.
He looked like one that was probably picked on. Considering he was forced by his parents to go on camping trips, it seems like the there is more to the story.

[SidDithers]

74. Any organization that needs a separate web site...

to discuss and promote their legal issues, is an organization with too many legal issues.

http://www.bsalegal.org/

Sid

[Initech]

77. Penn & Teller recently did a Bullshit episode debunking the BSA's discriminatory policies

First off, the first thing they found was their discriminatory policies were IN FACT religious based - the group gets a lot of their funding from the Mormon church.

Second - they did an experiment where they pit five gay guys against five straight guys in a variety of tests that the Boy Scouts put their Scouts through - things like knot tying and tent pitching, etc. The gay guys did better in every single one of the tests, and they were especially quick knot-tiers.

Kinda makes you wonder why they discriminate in the first place, doesn't it?

[Kelly Rupert]

80. Yeah, I'm sure those kids are all homophobes,

who forced the kid to run away.

Or, you know, it's possible that some people are not driven by hot-button poltical issues. Shocking, I know.

[Arugula Latte]

84. We wouldn't let our son join the Scouts -- We started our own boys group.

We're a gay- and athiest-friendly bunch of liberal parents and our group has been going strong for more than three years.

[BoneDaddy]

90. That is a little over the top

doncha think? Not all scout masters are pedophiles, and the boys in the boy scouts should not be ridiculed cause the organization discriminates. It is not all or none.

The boy scouts do alot for their members and teach great skills. If you want to attack them, attack the organizing body.

My boys will not attend the scouts for that reason, but we have to resist this all or none thinking that is so indicative of the right winger mentality. We come off sounding like them.

[Madspirit]

95. I hate the Scout's anti-gay policy

...but I don't understand how you can look at a bunch of little boys and think bad things about them. They are just kids.

(The Girl Scouts openly support gay rights which I've always found odd. I guess the two are not really linked.)

Anyway, I truly hate the policy but you're despising children. Just despise the policy. I even had a straight woman friend of mine with a five year old boy who wanted to join, ask me what to do. It was the only boy's club in their tiny town. He is only five. I told her to let him join at least until he is actually old enough to explain this stuff to. All HE knew was that he wanted to be with his friends. Some things you can actually change from the inside and I am not willing to make a tiny child miserable.

Also, I think discrimination based on sexual orientation is every bit as EVIL as racial discrimination, just as Coretta Scott King said. I obviously would not have told her to go ahead if the Boy Scouts discriminated against persons of color. I just think racial discrimination is easier to explain to a five year old than is discrimination based on sexual orientation. ...and I did tell her to only allow it until he was old enough to explain it to.

Just setting the facts straight. I am not a revisionist when it comes to gay rights, being a lesbian and all. I just don't have the same response to the kids themselves as I do to the policy and the leaders of the organization.


Lee