The Dems better "grow a pair/spine/guts" and fight the Rethugs on the auto loan package

[DainBramaged]

or they can expect the next four years to be nothing but fucking deadlock in the Senate. And then payback when their time comes up for re-election. Oh, And Harry Reid, he is proving he is ineffective as our leader, for the Brazilionth time. He needs to go. No more Mr. Nice Guy Harry, if you can't grow a pair, we'll get somone who HAS a pair.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081211/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos_414

[trotsky]

1. You might want to change "pair" to "spine"

unless you want a flamewar on this thread.

[Captain Hilts]

3. That's awfully white of you, Trotsky. I'll start. "Pair" of what?

[AngryAmish]

12. shoes?

[DainBramaged]

4. I'm not dumping "pair", thanks for being the correctness police once again.

[backscatter712]

10. Pair of testicles? Pair of ovaries?

Pair's an equal-opportunity word in this context. :evilgrin:

[Starry Messenger]

26. My attack ovaries are unoffended.

[DainBramaged]

30. Thanks.

:hug:

[slutticus]

60. No. Don't change it. It's time to fight the outrage BS.

[Jim__]

2. The thing is, if the pukes block it, and the economy collapses ...

... they'll still blame it all on the dems; who won't know how to turn it around on the pukes.

[DainBramaged]

5. Correct, and did you notice NO presence on the MSM by the Dems???

Multiple pair needed.

[Occam Bandage]

6. The purpose of the bailout is to allow Detroit to retool, so it can be a long-term healthy industry.

If you think they can do that without lowering labor costs, you're just setting yourself up for another bailout fight as soon as they blow through this one.

[DainBramaged]

9. They DID lower their labor costs, or are you buying into the Rethug meme?

You folks keep forgetting, unless you dump the hundreds of thousands of pensioners (ever talk to a Toyota or Honda pensioner?) those cost aren't the same. Isn't it good enough the YAW has taken over administrating the health car plan, and that they ARE ALLOWING G to delay (if not forgive) the payment for nest year?


You are spewing rethuglican shit.


http://www.researchrecap.com/index.php/2008/12/10/autoworkers-pay-only-small-factor-in-detroits-problems/


The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves, he writes. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers. Wall Street analysts have done similar calculations.

The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

So maybe Toyota, Honda and Nissan and Mercedes Benz and BMW and Hyundai need to lower their labor costs too?

Oh and new hires only get $14.35 an hour for the Big 3, that was given to them in 2007.

What's next. work for free SO the White collar class can only afford cars???


Give me a break,.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Oh, okay. Good to know that there are no actual problems then.

Detroit's labor costs are fine, their car quality is fine, and they make the right type of cars people are buying.

I suppose, then, that we can cancel the bailout?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. You will undoubtedly get the stock answer to this question.

Which is that the operating environment for the Big Three is the reason for their problems. Curious that Ford seems to think it'll be just fine without a bailout, unless the other two go under.

[DainBramaged]

29. Let's get this out front, are you for or against the bridge loans?

Stop playing verbal polka here.

[DainBramaged]

24. If the credit market imporves which is the ENTIRE problem

in the first place. (sigh)

[Two Americas]

17. really?

"Healthy industry" depends upon lowering wages?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. "Healthy industry" depends upon profit, good cash flow, and long-term viability.

Not terms one associates with the big three these days.

[Two Americas]

41. from one point of view it does

You are right, from the management point of view, from the conservative point of view, that is how things are.

From the traditional Democratic party and Labor point of view, healthy industry depends upon the well being of the workers and the general public. Profits are the fruit of that. Profits do not create strong communities and a thriving working class, strong communities and a thriving working class create successful businesses and profits.

From Lincoln to FDR to all of the great Labor leaders, that has been the point of view of all who were not on the side of the wealthy and powerful few.

Here is Lincoln on this issue:

It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. Are you seriously suggesting that UAW members are poorly treated?

We are not talking here about an industry that treats its employees like slaves. You are not seriously suggesting that the big three's problems are due to poor treatment of their employees, are you?

[Two Americas]

56. what on earth?

I can't defend statements I didn't make.

What do "slaves" and "poorly treated" have to do with anything?

Are you saying that we should be pro-management until and unless "we are talking here about an industry that treats its employees like slaves?"

Does supporting Labor therefore mean that one is "seriously suggesting" that members of a particular union are "poorly treated?"

[deaniac21]

62. If the auto companies are nationalized, then we don't have to

worry about profit.

[DainBramaged]

28. I caught that too. He's always in my threads fighting against Labor.

I had thought that a few here would finally understand, but they keep "spinning" our wheels.

[TheKentuckian]

7. I've had enough. It's time to fight them tooth and nail on this.

If they threaten to filibusterer then let them and hang this around their necks. If leadership doesn't want to stand up for Americans then they must go.

[karynnj]

8. In January we will have 58 or 59 Democrats, now we have 50 and that

counts Lieberman. To pass this it is agreed that we need 60 votes - that means we need at least 10 Republicans - if we have all the Democrats - and Biden and Clinton vote.

Reid is now speaking of possibly 3 votes tonight. They need to do something because it is too important.

[Two Americas]

15. why the double standard

How come Republicans don't need 60 votes in order to get their way?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Because they own the Presidency?

Did you skip ninth grade civics?

[Two Americas]

35. didn't matter

The Republicans got their way when they didn't have the presidency.

No need for insults.

[karynnj]

33. To pass something they would have needed 60 votes as well

had the Democrats been willing to filibuster - and occasionally they did. It takes less to stop things then to pass them. (The Democratic leadership was reluctant to filibuster - even when they should have - as on Alito.)

In addition, this can pass with 60, if Bush were against it, we would need 67 to override a veto.

[Two Americas]

42. they fight

They fight for the interests of the people they represent, the wealthy and powerful few, no matter the circumstances, relentlessly, ferociously.

[karynnj]

46. Who are "they" in your post

Republicans, Democrats, both ????

[Two Americas]

57. Republicans

Republicans and right wingers.

They fight. They don't make excuses.

[OhioChick]

11. Agreed.

K&R

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. Payback by whom?

By your own admission the UAW will cease to exist as a political and economic force in this country if the bailout fails. Of course, it may well be that they cease to exist even if the bailout succeeds. I'm afraid to say that you guys don't have a hell of a lot of leverage at the moment.

[Two Americas]

20. "you guys"

The working class and organized Labor is "you guys?"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. No.

Mr. DainBramaged has made something of a name for himself here as a rather feisty public relations agent for the UAW. "You guys" refers specifically to the UAW. But by all means, feel free to read whatever you like into my statements.

[DainBramaged]

27. Feisty is rather benign.

And why shouldn't there be at least one of us here. I AM OUTNUMBERED tens of thousands to one.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. I'd much rather that there were more of you here.

It'd make the place more interesting, that's for sure.

[DainBramaged]

36. ARE YOU a Union member, and are you for or against the bridge loans?

KNOW you aren't from around here, I'm just interested in your "participation" in these threads about OUR Unions and their livelihood.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. I support giving them as much money as they want.

Hell, I support giving them three times as much money as they're asking for, because I don't really want to be back here having the same conversation six months from now once they've blown through the current package.

And don't assume that you know anything about me, my life, my history, or where I'm from. Save that shit.

[Two Americas]

38. what on earth is wrong with that?

"Mr. DainBramaged has made something of a name for himself here as a rather feisty public relations agent for the UAW."

That sounds like a very good thing to me. I applaud him for that. Are we supposed to think that is a strike against him or something?

[Two Americas]

44. ok, then

So the UAW is not organized Labor? How so? Or DainBramaged should not be an advocate for the UAW? Why not?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. The UAW is not the entirety of organized labor.

And DainBramaged is not the entirety of the UAW, thank God.

[Two Americas]

58. who said otherwise?

Who said that the UAW was the entirety of organized Labor, or anything at all about DainBramaged.

The UAW could be the worst union in history, and DainBramaged could be the worst possible spokesperson for Labor. So what? That is no justification for arguing a pro-management position, is it?

[DainBramaged]

25. DO you thinks the other great Unions will not remember how the UAW was treated

when the Democrats come with their hands out in 2010 and 2012?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. Unfortunately, some of us will also remember how Democrats were treated by the UAW.

On CAFE standards, for instance. You would do well to remember that politics is a two way street.

[DainBramaged]

32. Really even though they came hat in hand begging for help?

You didn't answer my other question regarding your support. And some of us, that means you are a Union member right??

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

61. Do you remember that scene in Citizen Kane where Boss Getty was pressuring Kane to drop out of the..

race for governor? The two men argued and Susan Alexander said "What about me?"

[gizmo1979]

37. We haven't had leverage for a long

time.They have been threatening us with China for the past 8 years.However we keep fighting to keep good jobs here not just for unions but for everyone. The big 3 set the wage structure for the rest of us.If they got a good contract so did we.If they go,we really won't have any leverage and all the anti union people will be happy.Just be careful what you wish for from wages to safety standards unions lead the way.If you don't believe it look it up.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. Unfortunately, the best case situation as I see it...

...is probably going to entail both benefits cuts and layoffs. However, people around here seem to be getting fixated on employee compensation as being the problem, as opposed to ineffective management. I don't feel like the UAW leadership has been particularly helpful to their membership with some of their recent actions.

[gizmo1979]

49. We need to do a much better public

relations job.We should be in the public eye for the help we provide communities and stuff.In this instance I can't believe we're not screaming about the wage realities,maybe we are and no one is listening.

[DainBramaged]

50. No one is listening

DU is a case in point.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. It's difficult to get any traction on wage issues...

...when *everyone* is fearing for their own jobs. There is a certain selfishness at work here, I think - "Why should I care about them when I've got my own problems. Hell, at least they've got a union!"

I agree that they should do a better job of talking about specifically the things you've mentioned - workplace safety, community involvement, etc. There's another thread floating around here at the moment detailing the help that the big three and the UAW gave after Katrina, and specifically calling Vitter to task. More of that would be nice.

[Celebration]

16. I just heard there will be a vote tonight n/t

[RiverStone]

23. We have long, long ago noted that Harry needs to go...

Too bad they don't listen to DU! :think:

[ColbertWatcher]

40. What I don't get is ...

... why are the sheeple so compliant?

Have they no voice of their own?

Do they not know what's going on?

Did they not see the investor class bailout?

Do they not see the consequences of not bailing out working people?

Are the sheeple so stupid that the GOP-controlled media can lead them around so easily?

[leftofthedial]

51. we've been threatening "democrats" with payback next election for eight years now

and it never happens.

instead we just get more and more and more DLC apologists here defending the move to the right.

[DainBramaged]

52. Yup, I know my enemy here, and it starts with a D.

:hi:

[Lifetimedem]

53. Harry needs to go

He is USELESS

[natrat]

55. pelosi and reid are crooks,it's beyond obvious-same with dodd frank and on and on

[snake in the grass]

59. I detest both Pelosi and Reid.

They are nothing more than enablers to the criminals in the Whitehouse and are not deserving of their positions as leaders in the House and Senate respectively.