How many unemployed people in the U.S. are "shovel ready"?

[CTyankee]

I'm wondering how much the shovel ready infrastructure projects will help. Back in the 30s we had a different workforce situation so the New Deal's putting people back to work building bridges and roads really paid off.

So, how will this help the out of work events planner or HR benefits coordinator or any of the myriad office jobs we have today?

Also, how does this specifically help women who are out of work if most of the jobs are centered in the male dominated jobs? This was not a concern in the 30s, altho I could see some women going into these jobs, just as they did "Rosie the riveter" work during WWII (it will be interesting to see how many Communications majors will make such a switch, regardless of gender...). If there is to be a boom in professions where women currently are overrepresented, I have yet to hear about it.

I am assuming their will be some benefits to office jobs that support the infrastructure programs, but I am not sure as to the extent of it.

Or maybe I am just being unimaginative. I would like to think that...

[Traveling_Home]

1. I hadn't thought of that - hmmmmmmm nt

[JDPriestly]

2. You touch on an important point. Thus far, Obama has not

dealt with the issue of the huge numbers of computer technicians and programmers and white-collar workers who have been displaced in recent years (not just this year. This has built up over the span of the Bush administration.) Well educated Americans cannot get jobs. Executive secretaries, etc. And the clerical work has been or is being shipped off to India. Those are the entry level and fall-back jobs for educated Americans.

The American job market is like a bone that has been picked clean by vultures.

[Ghost in the Machine]

8. Maybe people should learn how to get their hands dirty and sweat their asses off??

White collar workers are no better than the rest of us... you do what you've got to do to survive.. period.

If you're too good to get your hands dirty you won't survive long if/when the economy crashes and you have to rely on yourself...


just sayin'...

[JDPriestly]

14. We aren't going to be able to pay for oil with the wages earned

"sweating our asses" off. Digging ditches is respectable work, but we need to invest in creating better technology. We are an aging nation. Many of those who are jobless are men and women over 50 who have worked at white-collar jobs all their lives. I don't think they are going to be very efficient at digging ditches or construction work. Those programs are great for construction workers who have lost their jobs, but not so good for 40-year old laid off secretaries, teachers and computer technicians.

My father was bookish an worked in one of Roosevelt's programs during the depression. But he was very young and strong and healthy. What is more, he had grown up on a farm and was used to physical work. Take the average college grad today. He has never milked a cow. The football players will be able to adjust, but that shy kid who played the violin, forget it. It's not a lack of willingness. We all have different abilities and talents. Roosevelt also instituted a huge arts program funded by the government. We may need something like that. My husband was horrified to learn that only one student in his freshman comp junior college course had ever heard of Johann Strauss.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. They should look at it as a retraining opportunity...

Of course there are many people who are *unable* to do manual labor, and I fully understand that. I worked construction all my life.... until i was disabled in a job related accident back in 2003. I used to make $1200-$1500/wk as a commercial roofer... I've made $2500-$3500 in 3 to 4 days installing ceramic tile, marble and/or granite.

I've worked with female pipefitters, female carpenters, female tile setters, etc... the only thing that keeps physically able people from doing *anything* is their unwillingness to do it. I've gone from a job making $15/hr to one making $10/hr... because it was far better than making $0/hr and I had a family to feed.

[CTyankee]

25. For the young, yes. But this post isn't about feeling superior to anybody,

it's to look in a hardheaded way at what the infrastructure projects will look like, given today's workforce. Tomorrow's will certainly be shaped by the job opportunities out there but we're dealing with unemployed people right now and many, many of them were not trained for jobs building structures.

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. All those construction projects will need architects, engineers, project managers, site supervisors,

secretaries, receptionists, payroll clerks, etc...

There *should* be opportunities for everyone, shouldn't there?

[bertman]

36. Absolutely right, Ghost. And if we rebuild the Gulf Coast from Katrina, Rita and Ike's

devastation we're going to need lots of folks on computers helping organize materials, job schedules, purchasing, etc. Along with blue collar types.

America needs more blue collar workers in the construction industry. Women do just fine building things if they are willing to do those jobs. Like you, I have worked with many women carpenters, electricians, etc. who were damn good at what they did. But over the last 15 years there have been fewer and fewer of them in the trades. Don't know why.

Where I live we have many immigrants (legal and illegal) doing the construction work. Today American kids think working with their hands is demeaning. It's not. It's rewarding and often pays well. And it does take a brain to do the more complex tasks that those other than laborers do.

Seems like a no-brainer to get a civilian worker corps going to fix our devastated areas. I also forgot the folks who got flooded out in the midwestern states. They need help to.

CTYankee, this is an excellent post. Many of those unemployed folks who think they are not "shovel ready" could get that way pretty quickly if they decided it was a good way to make a decent living.

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. Very well said, bertman... thank you

It helps to think things all the way through... you get the bigger picture..


Peace,

Ghost

[CTyankee]

38. Hi bertman. I hope you will consider what I said about women in the trades

being subjected to sexist treatment, attempts to humiliate them, insults, sabotage of their equipment, etc. as to reasons why they are not in the trades any longer. Women in the trades are NOT in a level experience with male workers. You must know this given your background and your sensitivity to women workers. There is a whole body of law on this. It has been one of the hardest fought battles women has fought for equala rights under the law in the workplace. I encourage you to research this and to talk to any woman who you might know, who might have experienced such sexism.

So this is a problem if we are truly moving toward a big infrastructure jobs program. I don't think it will be easy for women...

[bertman]

47. I agree with you, CTyankee, regarding the obstacles women in the trades face. The

company I now own had five women carpenters at one point about 20 or 22 years ago. But it was a rarity to find that many in a small company--ours was a coop formed by four men and two women.

My business partner is a woman and she's been everything from a surveyor's assistant to commercial rod buster to framing and trim carpenter and is now a production manager who gets lots of respect from the men she works with (and over). But, it was a long road getting there. A lot of the men resented her inability to lift as much weight or carry as many 2x4's but she was very smart and a hard worker who did anything she was asked and never sought special treatment--except when she was pregnant as hell. But that's another funny story.

For years we actively advertised for women who wanted to learn carpentry and building, but eventually we stopped because we had no takers. The sad part is that we are a company where a woman will get as much of a fair shake as a man, as long as she isn't a malingerer or a dumbass.

I personally know at least five women who own their own building companies and all of them swung a hammer on the way up the business ladder. So, it's not impossible or even improbable for a good, strong, hardworking woman to be successful IF she gets hired in the right company.

It's up to all of us--men and women--to work to make the workplace hospitable to women who want to make blue-collar jobs their future.

I still think that President Obama could create some outstanding public works projects by rebuilding the Gulf Coast. Hiring women could be a mandate along with job training for those men and women who are interested in careers like building, electrical, plumbing, roofing, masonry, etc. Right now we have too many non-Americans working in America when we could be creating excellent opportunities for our workers who are unemployed or underemployed.

We have laws on the books about discrimination and sexual harrassment, so the President could call on all Americans to help change the way the workplace treats women so ALL Americans can have better lives. If anyone can persuade us to do that, in my opinion, it is Barack Obama.

[riverdeep]

18. But when I go to Wall Mart, I get the lowest prices, so it's all good.

:sarcasm:

It's the end result of a society that a) believed that short-sighted individuality was more important than long-term community and b) was lied to and exploited and manipulated by their 'betters' all the while shaking them by the ankles to get that last bit of change.

[monmouth]

3. I hope to never under estimate the willingness and knowledge of people

in this nation to learn how to do what needs to be done. "Rosie the riveter" is a great example. People in construction (many women in the field) and others in various fields will adapt, learn, and who knows, might be happy in a new work environment. Nothing like a paycheck to pay the bills to inspire..... This is and has always been a nation of "go getters" and "git er done" people. I'm thinking people who lost their jobs (many of whom hated them anyway) might find an area they learn, do well in and feel good again. We can only hope....

[CTyankee]

13. We can take Rose the Riveter just so far. Back in the late 30s, early 40s

not nearly as many women got professional degrees as do today. There was a glut of females to recruit in those days and many of them did not work previously. Women married much earlier and had children earlier. Women were barred from many professions. Few became doctors or lawyers (I forget when I last heard the expressions "lady lawyer" or "woman doctor" but I did hear them for many years). So a lot of women were young, healthy and trainable in factory work.

Today this is not the case. Just look at the statistics on how women college students outnumber men college students. Just how many young women will choose polytech schools so they'll be in demand for the upsurge in infrastructure jobs is a good question. And it might happen, if the jobs pay enough and advancement at the same pace as men's is not going to be a problem. Women currently in overwhelmingly male dominated fields have had the extra burden of sexism and sabotage by their male coworkers.

[monmouth]

16. I have a female friend recently lost her position in education (I think

she has her Doctorate). Anyway, she absolutely had to work. While in college she worked as a waitress. Living in the Palm Beach area, she said WTH and is working as a cocktail/waitress in a very fine hotel. Since the outlook of her going back in the near future to education seems not in the cards, she's quite content in this new/old situation. Believe it or not, the hotel she works in offers (minimal) health benefits and is a year-round position. She considers herself lucky.

I agree with you, there are many who will face daunting challenges. Learning to drive everything from a forklift to a bulldozer could be challenging.

[Codeine]

4. Any of you can do physical labor.

Male or female, a little back-breaking won't kill you. Welcome to the world of the blue-collar workers you've been ignoring or looking down upon all these years.

[JDPriestly]

19. My friend is 63. She worked as an executive secretary to

top level CEOs and executives all her life. She is an excellent secretary, but she can't get a job and has lived up her savings trying to find one. You don't know what you are talking about. She raised two kids and worked long, long hours. Welcome to the world of white-collar workers where you get a good salary but work 50-70 hours a week without overtime pay.

[Obamanaut]

45. And that 50 - 70 hrs w/o overtime is not uncommon for the typical

farm family - man and woman. It's sorta everywhere.

[shadowknows69]

46. Well speaking personally

due to my nearly un-functioning spine and chronic excruciating pain, I'd have to take so much Codeine that I wouldn't be able to operate an intricate machine like a shovel.

[Mike 03]

5. Fantastic question. This has been a huge topic of conversation

on Bloomberg Radio over the past month or so. I have no good answer. But I can tell you I live in a town where about one third of the workers work in construction, and they are shovel ready. But another third are real estate people, and they could never do that.

[Codeine]

9. Yes they could.

None of you are too good to lift a shovel, and after a few weeks you'll have the strength needed to get it done.

[nebenaube]

12. As I sit here...

I'm wondering how many months from now it will be before I will be a candidate for hip replacement. Sure, I'm on-line for the moment... When the shit really hits the fan, I guess I'll just keep mending the tent and foraging for wild edibles. A job with a shovel will cripple me.

[seemunkee]

15. Physical disablitly aside

I can understand if there is some mitigating circumstance why a person wouldn't be shovel ready, BUT just because you used to be a real estate agent or did some kind of office work shouldn't be a reason.

[JDPriestly]

21. Codeine, you are a fool. Would you be able to write a legal brief?

Or prepare a prescription? Or analyze a financial sheet? We need to maintain the skills of people who can do those things. Our economy will not rebound based on menial laboring jobs.

The world of the 1930s was provincial. Trade was not what it is today. Air freight was uncommon. And sea travel was much slower than today. Commercial refrigeration was not what we know today. My point is that we have to compete in a global economy. Construction jobs will employ people who have lost construction jobs, but we cannot, as a nation, afford to allow educated people's intellectual skills to decline. Those are the skills we need to capitalize on in order to compete in the global market.

We need to use the skills of the educated to create products and production facilities in which we can manufacture what we need. We need to stop importing products from countries that exploit cheap labor and pollute the environment.

The manual labor jobs are stop-gaps for the young and for those who are skilled at that kind of work. The programs will not succeed if they attempt to train 50-year-olds to dig ditches or construct bridges. Get real, please.

[Codeine]

34. Of course not,

but I could learn many of those skills. Those who already know them are not special, and should not be held above or considered too good for whatever job is available. I'm offended by the notion that some folk are considered too privileged or too delicate to bust a little ass when needed.

[JDPriestly]

41. You might be surprised at the things that "those people" have already

done, especially the older ones. Don't be such a snob. People have different talents. It's not a matter of being too good. It's that we can't afford to allow people's talents for math or science or writing or law or other things to go undeveloped. If we do that, our country will simply wither away and turn to chaos.

We also should never have allowed our industrial jobs to be outsourced. But I remember when I warned about that and no one would listen. And now, I'm warning you that placing tomorrow's or even today's highly qualified white-collar types and computer engineers, etc. to dig ditches is just as much a mistake as outsourcing the industrial jobs was. You can't kill the goose that laid the golden egg and expect to keep doing well.

[Warpy]

6. Creating shovel and pick jobs also creates office jobs

How else are the shovel and pick people going to get their hours tallied and their paychecks cut? How are they going to know where and when to dig in the first place?

Every type of job spins off another few dozen jobs. There will have to be an additional clerk at the market to check out their groceries, maybe one more assembly line worker to turn out a few extra cars a year for the pick and shovel workers who need transportation to work, more truck drivers to make sure the stores have goods to sell them.

This is why economies run from the bottom up. Every working person creates demand that indirectly employs more people.

Remember, no rich man ever handed out a job he didn't have a poor man with money in his pockets ready to pay for.

[On the Road]

11. A Lot of the Men Who Will be Taking These Jobs

may currently be working in call center, office, or other settings which typcially have a better gender balance. Even an opening for a heavily male position may thus result in employment of both men and women.

[CTyankee]

17. I am also hoping for green jobs that can hire many diversely talented people.

We may see an upsurge in such jobs in not a long time. I am thinking of jobs that help create a green society and I am thinking top to bottom and all the related areas connected in.

If I am right, this will all mean a revolution in higher education in this country...

[JDPriestly]

26. When we lived in Austria in the 1970s and 80s, they foresaw

precisely the situation we are seeing. They recognized that they would not be competitive in a global economy. So they adopted a philosophy that small is beautiful. They tried to develop special product and service niches -- areas in which they could produce needed products on a small scale for a small market at a decent return. Of course, the ability of the Chinese to steal any idea and produce a cheap copy of any product with low wage labor probably defeated that strategy too, But, the concept was good.

In the end, the only way we can put Americans back to work is to renegotiate trade agreements so that we only import goods from countries that pay their employees livable wages (by our standards) and that comply with high environmental standards (in reality, not just on paper).

If we do that, we will have an even playing field and be able to compete. The stop-gap public works jobs are just that -- stop-gap. I do not like this, but -- it's a case of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg. Slaughter that goose and the eggs stop coming. That's what has happened to the U.S.

I have a small garden, and I can tell you no matter the motivation, no matter the will, not matter the love of digging and lifting, you get to an age that you just don't last long at it. Farmers work longer at physical labor than other people. They start young and develop great strength. But I know from my family, that even they have to slow down as they age. And we have an aging population. The Baby Boomers are a huge, aging mass, many of whom will not be very good at heavy lifting and digging, no matter how hard they try.

[Sydnie]

7. Well, this is also a generation of "gym goers"

many who have tried to maintain their physique. Now they can do it and get a paycheck instead of paying to go somewhere and expend energy on a treadmill or stairmaster or "spinning" and not getting anywhere for the effort. Not to mention that it will support the creation of other jobs (roach coach drivers or the like) to support the work force on the roads.

Not an ideal situation but it's better than a stick in the eye.

[JDPriestly]

29. As a gardener, I can tell you that walking a treadmill and working

out do not prepare you for hours of heavy lifting and digging. Age is the most important factor, sorry to say. You may be able to run a marathon and still not be able to do hours of heavy garden work such as digging holes for a fence or lifting cement blocks.

[H2O Man]

10. WPA & CCC

My father said these were the best government programs ever. The CCC was more of an overall success. But the WPA had more than "shovel" jobs. Older men, for example, were hired to paint.

[JDPriestly]

31. Painting is a job you can do when you are older.

as long as you don't have to climb. Your sense of balance deteriorates as you age (at least it does for a lot of people). That's why older people are inclined to fall more.

[guitar man]

20. I'm working a desk job now

But I came from the blue collar world, for the right money I can go right back. I can drive a heavy dump truck, operate some equipment, burn,fit and weld, sandblast and a few other things I did for a living along the way. I'm kinda ready to get out from behind this desk and actually do something for a living again.

[riverdeep]

32. I could go back, too.

But It would suck for me. I liked not having to use my body for a living as I got older. Climbing on top of trucks in negative temps gets wearing.

But I could do it. Basically in good shape, skills like forklift work and safety training.

But I disagree with the idea that using your head is not 'real' work. It can also be exhausting, just in a different way.

[Rhiannon12866]

22. That is an excellent point.

Many women now work in what were considered male-only jobs, see them directing traffic during road or bridge reconstruction, but most are not suited to do the heavy lifting. The office jobs will be scarce and they'd have to have some knowledge of the industry to qualify. In a previous era, the man worked while his wife usually stayed at home, running the house and looking after kids. Since this is no longer true, the female workforce may suffer much more... :-(

[riverdeep]

23. Another thing is that this nation is largely out of shape.

Europeans that come to this country are generally shocked by the normalcy of obesity. People drive around a parking lot for seven minutes to avoid walking.

As for women, if the whole point of putting people to work, they'll adapt. There are plenty of marvelously in shape women who can do physical work, but it's true that that doesn't apply to the average woman, who still largely carries around the idea that exertion is not feminine.

[CTyankee]

30. Well, if you think that women don't think they should exert themselves you

should meet my granddaughters. Every one of them (3)has at least two sports activities each season. You name it: softball, basketball, LaCrosse, soccer, swimming, horseback riding, dancing. High exertion sports are the norm for them...

[riverdeep]

33. That's great.

I absolutely believe women should exert themselves physically, what I said was they don't think that. It's still a traditional society in many parts of the country.

Athletics has totally changed the way women look at the physical world, and unlike the case for men, participation in sports is largely beneficial. But it's also the case that most of these women will never be that active again. Many former college athletes become like everyone else-sedentary.

[CTyankee]

39. not if physical exercise becomes a part of their life. My granddaughters' parents (my daughter and

son in law) both exercise regularly, tennis, running, swimming, treadmill, weights, yoga, Pilates. All there. And they are in their early 40s...

[CTyankee]

42. I have become a broken record on the lack of obesity in Europeans in many threads

recently on the issue of genes and obesity. I was in Europe twice in 08, in May I was in Northern Italy and in October I was in Northern Spain. I NEVER saw obese people, just as I have not in all my travels to Europe over the years.

I DID see some overweight individuals, mostly older people, in Europe, particularly northern Italian cities and large Spanish cities like Madrid. I never saw it in Sicily a few years ago so I attributed that to their need to climb lots of hills, evenjust in their little towns (lots of hills/mountains in Sicily).

[trof]

28. If I can have THIS shovel, I'm yer man!

[Earth_First]

35. Personally, this stinks of the "Americans WONT do certain jobs" meme...

that fuels the immigration debate on the other side of the aisle.

If workers were paid a living wage in order to perform 'shovel' work, I believe that you'd find millions of able bodied Americans willing to perform infrastructure repair and development.

[CTyankee]

40. I agree with you, but I think it will be young and inexperienced. We do still

have the people who believe that a college degree will confer untold benefits upon them. That's not a bad thing. But they might have to do some heavy physical labor to get that education...

[TheKentuckian]

43. Lots are or can be made "shovel ready"

Americans are out of shape but its mostly because people on tight budgets eat lots of ramen, potatoes, mac and cheese, and fatty meats, which all put extra lard on the ass. Then you combine that with a sit down life style-car, office, and couch and you got a recipe for padding. Getting off our asses would do a lot for a great many.

I'm also not a believer in the McCain school of workers that thinks the average American won't be bothered to put sweat equity into their paycheck, whatever that check is for. I understand they've been trying to program it out of anyone that could even bother to graduate high school but most would look at more physical work, if it pays around the same or more than their sit around job.

[shadowknows69]

44. I'm still fucked

I'd give anything to be able to wield a shovel but thanks to a stupid driver I can't even stand for more than 5 minutes.