The safest car is the one that doesn't get in a collision in the first place..

[Fumesucker]

A common comment I've been reading her on DU regarding the smaller, fuel efficient cars that we should be moving toward as a society is that they are "deathtraps".

As a long term motorcyclist I have a little different take on small cars than a lot of people. On a motorcycle if you get into a collision with a car of any size you are almost certainly going to come out holding the short end of the stick. One of the characteristics of those who have ridden street bikes for a long time without injury is that they are extremely defensive drivers. The kind of bikes I like, moderate sportbikes, are considerably more maneuverable than just about any car and will outstop all but the most exotic cars, there are actually quite a few bikes out there now that have ABS, even some Harley models have ABS now.

The only thing between you and serious injury or death on a streetbike is your riding skill and ability to accurately predict what other drivers are going to do, I call this prediction ability "traffic sense" and it takes a considerable amount of training and experience to develop it. Long term bikers have learned to ride "in the gaps" where the cars aren't at this moment and probably won't be in the next moment.

The thing about small cars that a lot of drivers fail to understand is that they are more maneuverable and controllable on the average than a large car, they are also a smaller target for other vehicles than are larger cars. I've driven everything from an 18 wheeler to a Lotus Elite I could pick the front of up by myself.. I felt much safer in the Lotus than I did in the 18 wheeler because I knew I could avoid far more situations in the Lotus than I could in the 18 wheeler. Small cars are also *easier* to drive than large cars, the car becomes more an extension of your body than a vehicle you are riding in.

The biggest factor in driving safety is the skill of the driver and his or her ability to properly control the vehicle in a wide range of circumstances. A highly skilled driver in a small car is considerably more safe than a poor driver in a larger car, all else being equal.

IMO, those who call small cars "deathtraps" are often lacking in driving skills or possibly confidence in their skills. The licensing requirements in every state I'm familiar with are pathetic, you don't have to demonstrate any ability to control the car other than under the most benign conditions. Upgrading required driver skills would lead to far safer conditions on the road than any amount of car mass or safety devices.

For a safer driving experience, don't buy the urban assault vehicle, upgrade your driving skills and *pay* *attention* to what you and every other idiot on the road around you are doing every moment you are behind the wheel and the car is moving.

[InvisibleTouch]

1. That's a good perspective.

I certainly felt much more maneuverable and aware in my tiny little 3-cylinder car of years past, than I do now in my great big van (which, however, gives me a bit of a false sense of security). As it is, I need the van to transport my dog pack and the various accumulations of stuff that I haul home - but I do get what you're saying.

[Deja Q]

2. If other people knew how to drive instead of masturbating their texting cell phones...

[yella_dawg]

3. You're being sensible again.

Stop it!

[notesdev]

4. Almost 20 years now

driving a small passenger car, without so much as a bump or scratch

IMO someone driving a large vehicle without having a real compelling reason to do so vs. driving a car is like giving everyone else on the road a big middle finger

[trof]

5. A long, long time ago, in pilot training, I learned to 'stay ahead of the aircraft'.

Instructors kept trying to hammer that into my head.
Finally, I got it.
The very best pilots try not to get into situations that call for heroic actions and a lot of luck to get out of.
You learn hazard AVOIDANCE.

And that's how I drive.
I'm not just watching the car in front of me.
I'm watching several cars down the road, too.
And how long a traffic light has been green and checking cross street traffic even if I have the right of way.

To me, driving is like a gigantic chess game and I'm always trying to think ahead and keep as many options open as possible.
K&R your post.

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. My dad was a pilot that taught me to drive the same way

I've seen my Dad towing a boat avoid and go around an occurring accident ahead of us
whereas everyone else ended up crashing. He taught me the same way you discribe.

Must be a pilot thing, he also made glance at my instruments, tach, speed and engine temperature etc
every minute. I've avoided tons of accidents using the avoidance way of driving, you suggested

[trof]

12. Yep, continuous instrument crosscheck. It becomes second nature.

[Captain Hilts]

11. I do the same thing - but things get really crazy anywhere north of Quantico.

I've seen some weird, high-speed shit happen.

In a car your options to avoid an accident are very limited when someone does something stupid.

[Fumesucker]

13. The point is that you have to be *expecting* the stupid

And continually planning escape routes and evasive maneuvers.

It often feels like I know someone is going to do something stupid before they do themselves, I've been doing it for so long it's completely automatic on my part.

[Captain Hilts]

27. I do. Where do you escape to on the Capital Beltway? Only bad drivers get into accidents?

[Fumesucker]

30. Bad drivers get into a great many more accidents..

My wife's sister really shouldn't be on the road, she has run into an 18 wheeler head on, rear ended a school bus with her kid in the car, plowed over mailboxes, into ditches and into rock walls. In over thirty years of driving sis in law has never sold a running car, they were always demolished.

And yet she has no problem getting a license. :shrug:

[riverdeep]

22. That's a far cry from the way most people drive.

One of the things that I rail against is this idea of the car as an extension of the living room. You move from your couch to this other seat, turn on some switches, and now you can listen to the radio, talk on the cell phone, hold conversations, eat or drink, apply make-up, shave, maybe even read or watch TV.

All while two tons are whizzing past each other at 60 mph. Driving needs to be taken seriously.

[DemoTex]

42. Trof is spot on. Another benefit of rigorous pilot training is fuel management discipline.

I soloed an Aeronca 7AC several hours before I got my driving license on my 16th b-day. Of course I later flew military, corporate, and airline aircraft. Because of the fuel management discipline instilled in me in pilot training, I have never, ever run out of gas in an automobile.

[Captain Hilts]

6. I-95 and the Capital Beltway are NO places for small cars or motorcycles.

The highway is no place to rely on the kindness and competence of strangers.

[Fumesucker]

9. I live in Atlanta and have for the majority of my life..

We have a perimeter highway also I-285 and traffic here is faster than on the DC beltway while being about as heavy. I'm familiar with DC traffic because I've worked several jobs there.

I've ridden motorcycles about 200k miles in and around Atlanta in the last 40 plus years and never once been touched by another vehicle.

You learn to ride in such a manner that even if you were totally invisible you wouldn't get hit anyway, I'm ready to take violent evasive maneuvers at any given instant and I'm anticipating and projecting the actions of every driver around me I can see, it's completely automatic and I don't think about it at all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. SUVs are classified as light trucks so they can get around safety restrictions.

Generally, if people tell me they drive SUVs for the safety, I don't believe them. To put it nicely.

[slackmaster]

32. I thought the reason they were clasified as light trucks was to avoid fuel economy standards

They have the same safety features as other vehicles.

My 1998 Nissan Pathfinder has anti-lock brakes, driver and passenger air bags, safety glass, etc.

My informal analysis of SUV accidents reveals a few common threads:

- Young, inexperienced driver

- No mature adults in the vehicle

- Injured parties not wearing seat belts

In addition to the other usual things like alcohol and inclement weather.

[LeftyMom]

38. Both.

Until safety standards were recently firmed up (I believe the rules took effect in 2007) light trucks were not required to have lap/shoulder belts or head support in the center rear seat, for example, while cars were and had been for some time.

[pacalo]

8. And to drive defensively, as though every driver around you might possibly cause an accident.

After all, an accident can sometimes be caused by a careless, speeding driver whose car flips over to the oncoming lane, smashing into another car.

As a young, less experienced driver, I was hit from behind as I was parked at a red light, so I've learned to have a safe distance between me & the car ahead of me when stopped. I feel safer knowing that I could escape onto the shoulder if I saw a car coming full blast behind me.

[tridim]

14. I just started riding a bike again and am already becoming a more defensive driver.

I just hope I can build up my skills enough before someone tries to hit me. I'm taking the safety course in the spring.

At least this go'round I have an armored jacket and a full face helmet.

[dysfunctional press]

15. i was struck broadside on my bike by a station wagon that blew through a stop sign

two things worked in my favour- i had highway bars, and i'm not one of those morans that rides without a helmet. well- RODE without a helmet- due to my now brittle arthritic spine- riding would be a fool's errand for me.
when i had the accident, i was catapulted over the guy's car and landed on my head & shoulders(not the shampoo), and skidded down the street, which ended up putting me in the hospital with a broken collarbone, a broken shoulder blade, some bad roadrash, and a concussion. if i hadn't had the highway bars, i probably would have had a crushed leg as well- and without a helmet i probably would have had some MAJOR head trauma. in the ambulance, they asked me what hospital i wanted to go to(there are two in our town) i told them "ucla medical center" we lived just west of chicago, at the time but i thought that chad everett was way cool... on the way to the hospital on the west side of town, the paramedic kept tapping my collarbone and asking if it hurt- i told him "not really" and he said 'well it should- cause it's broken'... "then please stop hitting it."

when my parents came into the treatment room where they were cutting off what rags remained of my clothes, the first words out of my father's mouth have always stuck with me: "Great! who's gonna pay for this?" (compassion isn't his strong suit).

it didn't stop me from riding- but i did start feeling a lot less safe, and eventually just stopped riding altogether. now, as i mentioned about my spine, i couldn't wouldn't ride even if i wanted too. plus- i let the classification on my license expire, anyway.

[Fumesucker]

18. My brother split a full coverage helmet in half in one accident..

His head would have looked like a watermelon dropped on the sidewalk if he hadn't had the helmet on, as it was he was bruised and scraped but basically OK.

I would guess that at least 90% of collisions are avoidable if you are paying attention and have proper skills, of course there are always going to be the freak occurrence which you can't anticipate.

You were lucky and I'm glad you made it through the incident reasonably intact.

Edited to add: I greatly prefer a full coverage helmet to the fiberglass yarmulke a lot of Harley riders wear, about thirty five percent of motorcycle accidents involve injury to the lower face and jaw.

Another interesting statistic is that about 70% of motorcycle accidents occur in the first 90 days of ownership.

[Festivito]

16. Wow. I'm agreeing with YOOOOOOU! Nice post. /nt

[Fumesucker]

19. Thank you, I would rather agree than disagree.. n/t

[TahitiNut]

17. Too many drivers are already driving at the limit of their skills to have any in reserve.

Excessive speed for the conditions and drivers thinking about "arriving" rather than "driving" ... impatient and with heads filled with all kinds of thoughts EXCEPT what's happening HERE and NOW ... leads to death.

Leave ahead of time. Drive at the MEDIAN speed of the traffic around you. Keep clear and leave space between your vehicle and those to your front and EACH SIDE. Expect the unexpected.

I learned that driving my motorcycle ... and use it driving my car.

[Fumesucker]

20. Actually on a bike I prefer to ride a touch above the average speed..

Visibility to the front is far better than to the rear and I really *don't* like having people gaining fast on me from behind when I'm on a bike.

Other than that I agree with you.

[TahitiNut]

21. I count cars. Cars I pass minus cars passed.

I keep that to a SMALL positive number, typically a single digit number. It's a simple trick and it works VERY well.

[riverdeep]

23. One thing about small cars, they can be safe as long as they're not underpowered.

They need to have enough in reserve to be able to speed away if need. A scenario where you go through an intersection you think is safe cause you got the green, and here comes cell phone Larry, making the deal of his life, and you're going to hit if you can't get some juice.

You don't need a Shelby Cobra, a good Civic can work fine, but some of these cars I wonder about.

[Fumesucker]

24. I had a Suzuki Swift GT 1.3

Basically a Geo Metro..

It would touch 119 mph in fourth gear, was actually slower in fifth since that was an overdrive designed for cruising.

It would also smoke the front tires just from getting on the gas hard in first gear, didn't need to drop the clutch.

Amazing little car actually, felt like a rally car, very stiff suspension and positive handling.

[riverdeep]

29. I've been hearing a lot of good things about the Honda Fit.

The sport model with manual in particular. People love the handling, and they say the driving experience is remarkable for such a car.

Here's a kind of dorky one:



And a bit cooler one:

[Fumesucker]

34. Yeah, I've heard good things about the Fit also

Personally I like the way they look..

[TheWraith]

25. Actually, you start from a false premise: I've not seen anyone on DU describe them as "deathtraps."

What HAS been said is that a lot of the small, fuel-efficient models made by Detroit that are sold elsewhere like Mexico and Europe aren't sold in the US because they can't pass our crash-test rules.

My last car was a 1992 Pontiac Bonneville. With a curb weight just this side of 2.5 tons, a poor maintainence history before I got it, and a propensity on my part to floor it on the country roads, it still got 25 miles per gallon. And in all weather and hazards, it was the next best thing to driving a tank.

Frankly, I don't think that we should have to choose between efficiency and safety.

[Fumesucker]

33. I read "deathtraps" today on DU..

That was the reason for my post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4632095#4632344

And I've seen it multiple times before regarding small cars.

[LeftyMom]

39. Since that was my post, can I point out that you're working with a false dilemma?

There's plenty of room in between oversized vehicles and microcars, and that's both where the sweet spot is for safety* and where most people's needs lie.

*As a general rule, weight means greater safety in a vehicle up until about 4,000 lbs, which is roughly the size of a minivan or full sized sedan. After that there's no significant benefit in accident performance and often a significant reduction in maneuverability.

[Fumesucker]

43. LOL .. Your words exactly..

"I've not seen anyone on DU describe them as "deathtraps."

You said that when you had called them "deathtraps" yourself.. It's hard to get much more disingenuous than that.

And again, you are speaking strictly of safety in a collision, I'm speaking of avoiding collisions in the first place.

I bet you that if you were in a 4,000 lb sedan and I was in my 800 lb Lotus and we were in a contest to see if you could ram me that you couldn't do it, I could drive circles around you.

That's what I'm talking about, sheer accident avoidance capability.

[LeftyMom]

45. No, somebody else said that.

Maneuverability is a factor in collisions, but obviously not the only one or even a particularly major one in most cases. Most accidents are caused by driver error, so while maneuverability gives the ability to avoid some accidents it also gives bad drivers the ability to cause them faster, by darting in and out of traffic, etc.

Further, I think you've made an unwarranted assumption about me. I drive a fairly small and rather efficient wagon. It's just not a microcar, because I'd like to be able to transport my rapidly growing kid and some groceries at the same time.

[Fumesucker]

48. Sorry, I misinterpreted what you said and confused you with the other poster..

I'm well aware that most collisions (not accidents) are caused by driver error.

If someone is driving badly they are more likely to crash in a less maneuverable vehicle which has less capability of allowing you to correct errors.

I personally would like to see the driver's license requirements tightened substantially, proper training of drivers is essential for keeping the roads as safe as possible.

The last time I took a driving test the examiner gave me a 95 out of 100, I asked what I did wrong because I wanted to correct whatever my error was and she told me she just never gives a 100% mark.. :shrug:

[Spike89]

26. Great post

I too have been a long-term cyclist. I took about a five year break after my last bike wore out and I moved from S. Cal. back to rainy Oregon. When I got a new bike last Winter, the 1st thing I noticed was just how much more involved I was in the process of getting places. I also noticed very quickly just how detached I had been as a driver (never been in an accident either 2 or 4 wheel in ~35 years). Stereo, passengers, comfy seats, a climate controlled environment, and a screen (windshield) not unlike a TV--it all leads to complacency behind the wheel.

Every one I know with significant motorcycle miles under their helmet is a good, extremely defensive driver. I almost wish there was a way to get that sense of awareness and vulnerablity installed in all drivers--without the bloodbath that would happen if the roads were suddenly flooded with fledgling cyclists.

Just as an aside: I actually assume no one can see me on my bike--I commute in a lot of crappy weather in winter near dawn and dusk, even aware drivers might have trouble seeing me and although I know I should, I just can't wear day-glo--I'm a black leather guy all the way.

[riverdeep]

28. One more thing, I thing people drive way too fast and recklessly for Hwy conitions.

In general. They have to take their vehicles into account. A BMW can drive 80 mph no problem. They can also stay a little closer to the vehicle in front of them because if something happens, they have decent brakes and maneuverability. You can't do that safely with a Ford Explorer. At 80 they're close to maxed out, and their brakes are terrible and they lumber like a beast in handling. If someone slows down suddenly in front of them, it's catastrophic. Yet there they are, a few feet behind someone at 75. Supposedly they carry insurance, they do understand the concept that things don't always go according to plan?

The concept of passing lanes is also becoming a quaint concept, regrettably.

[Fumesucker]

36. I guess you missed the passing lane flamefest yesterday and today?

There was a pretty good thread all about that..

[slackmaster]

31. My mom used to tell me the most dangerous part of any car was the nut behind the wheel

She was right.

[carlyhippy]

35. good point, but what if the other person isn't a safe driver on the street with you?

I have an SUV for safety for my family, I am also a very careful driver. I had a small car a few years back, and barely avoided an accident on an icy road by a driver in a caddy who slid thru an intersection, had they hit me, there would have been nothing of my car or us. I feel safer in my SUV, didn't like seeing my kids against the doors in the back seat of the little fuel efficient car. No matter what vehicle someone drives, they need to learn how to drive defensively and be extra mindful of their driving, get off the cell and for god's sake, quit texting while driving!

[Fumesucker]

44. You avoided the accident with the Caddy in a small car..

And you quite possibly wouldn't have done so in an SUV.

Thanks for making my point for me.

The single greatest safety feature in any car is an alert and competent driver.

[carlyhippy]

52. no, I would have avoided the accident in my SUV guaranteed

I would have done the same manuever in my SUV and would have avoided the caddy. the only difference had I been hit, the caddy would have hit the bottom of the door, vs the small car it would have Tboned right at head level.

[LeftyMom]

46. SUVs skimp on safety features.

Further, if you drive a truck-based SUV rather than a car-based version (for example, an Expedition rather than a Highlander) the more rigid frame would transfer more of the accident forces to passengers in an accident. Your kids would actually be safer in a minivan or (provided your family's not so large that you need additional seats) a reasonably sized sedan. If you're worried about side collisions, just make sure you have side curtain airbags. Those side collisions are actually much more dangerous in an SUV because they tend to result in rollovers, which are among the least survivable accidents.

[catnhatnh]

37. Two Points....

...the first being that skill won't save you and second we need cars like motorcycles...

The Last day of October, my brother and I were t-boned at a 4 way stop sign. On the day of the collision I had driven cars for 39 years. I also had and drove commercial trucks for over 15 years. My motorcycle licence whih I renewed today Ive had since 1972...But I was merely the front seat passenger.

The driver had carried his MV license since 1974, his bike license since about 1976 and commercial truck since 1989-he carries it still (I surredered mine).

So if we take three separate permits we were licensed to drive shit for just under 150 years. Neither of us were ever involved in an acident with injuries. Then an 86 year old lady changed things. Driving the most basic item, we both suffered broken bones....

That said-we need an "ultralight car". If you and I and each citizen can choose to ride a motorcycle,than the choice is clear that the choice to use lightweight vehicles to hypermile is both valid and needed. What IS needed are low speed lanes between towns and cities.

I won't call names, but a solution lies in lighter weights and slower speeds.

[Fumesucker]

51. Set the speeds too low and boredom becomes a significant factor..

Back in the days of the double nickle, the joke was that driving across Texas wasn't a trip, it was a career.

The slower you go the more your attention is likely to wander, I think the speed limits are mostly not far off correct now, fast enough to keep most people from falling asleep at the wheel but not so fast that most drivers can't handle it if they pay attention and are driving a vehicle in reasonably good shape.

[PJPhreak]

40. In a nutshell...

"The biggest factor in driving safety is the skill of the driver and his or her ability to properly control the vehicle in a wide range of circumstances. A highly skilled driver in a small car is considerably more safe than a poor driver in a larger car, all else being equal."

BING! BING! BING!!! WE HAVE A WINNNNA!!!

As a Truck Driver and an Avid Gearhead (Motorcycles,Automobiles and Mt.Bikes) you Sir hit the nail on the head!!!

Ya'll want to reduce oil usage?

Help make REAL Mass Transit a reality?

Get cleaner air?

Reduce Greenhouse gases?

And maybe Reduce your Auto Ins. as well?

I'll bet Ya'll would want to in an instant...as I Do

There is a very simple solution...Stricter Driving Licensing Standards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Quick Example...To fly a Piper Cub or Beechcraft Bonanza you need hundreds of hours of REQUIRED TRAINING! If you screw up and crash chances are that you will hurt no one else except yourself and maybe those also on the aircraft.
Now lose control of your 2003 Ford on the I-95 Beltway in D.C. and you will More Than Likely not only hurt yourself,but possabily MANY others

So why is it harder to get a Single Engine Pilots License Than a Drivers License? Obviously your chances of hurting yourself or others are greater in an Automobile than an Piper Cub.

Make Drivers More Qualified,to do my job I had to go to Driving School (6 Mo. and 2200 Bucks) had to Co-drive with another Driver for three months,and Solo for 9 Mo.More before the Co. said that I was Qualified to Pilot a 80.000 Lb 18 Wheeler Loaded with Flammables down the Interstate.

Sounds like a P.I.T.A.your probably thinking....34 Years,Millions of Miles.....not a scratch on my Rig,any other Vehicle,NEVER placed an Ins.Claim (Personaly or Professionally)EVER!
Now imagine if Everybody could say this? Yes 30 percent of drivers would lose their Driving Privileges,some would get more training,some would not,hence creating a need for a much better Mass Transit System.

[backscatter712]

41. Smaller cars have tough safety requirements.

They have to have airbags, ABS, crumple zones, extensive crash testing, etc.

The standards are much tougher than for SUVs and trucks, which have more of a tendency to roll over, crumple in a bad way in accidents, etc.

Between the enhanced safety features, and the better maneuverability of small cars, I'd say that in the hands of a skilled driver, they're quite safe.

[deaniac21]

47. Your argument sounds to much like the "guns don't kill people"

arguement.

[Fumesucker]

49. I fail to see the connection..

Could you possibly elaborate a bit?

[deaniac21]

53. Your are talking about a car as if it were keeping itself safe.

[Fumesucker]

55. Actually, I'm saying the exact opposite..

It is the driver who keeps the car safe..

[flvegan]

50. We need a Lotus Elise with Benz S-Class technology, then.

Because, let's face it, there are far to many distracted/shitty American drivers.

[rbixby]

54. You can never be too careful, even in a big car

I was the road manager/driver for a band for a long time, and we made a lot of road trips in my big conversion van towing a huge trailer with all the gear in it. Because the thing is built like a tank, I never really worried too much for my own safety, but I was always worried about hitting someone else, so I drove like a grandpa in it most of the time, going the speed limit, or maybe a couple of miles over it, and making sure I always had enough following distance to stop if I needed to. I definitely agree that a lot of people drive beyond their abilities, I'd be driving 30 down the freeway in a snowstorm, normally I wouldn't even be out on the roads, but we had to get to the gig, and people were passing me left and right like crazy, going 60, 70 miles and hour on the super icy freeway with very low visibility. It seemed like about half the cars that passed me going really fast ended up in the ditch within a couple of miles. My biggest fear was always someone having an accident in front of me and not being able to avoid it, because big vans don't maneuver very well, especially with a dual axle trailer behind them, I even had nightmares a couple of times about that happening and me being able to do nothing but jam on the brakes and hope for the best.
The closest call I ever really had didn't involve another driver, but a moose that walked out onto the road sometime past 2am in the Yukon territory, I locked up the brakes and skidded probably 150 feet, coming to rest about 20 feet from the moose, that just kind of gave me a surprised look and sauntered off the road. Careful driving might not get you all the chicks, but it will definitely help you avoid getting hurt or hurting someone else.