A sign of progress in Iraq?

[Gullvann]

Sorry to start another thead on this.

But, isn't it a sign of progress that you can now throw shoes at your leaders?

Imagine that under Saddam?

Or any of the other authoritarian rulers in the region.

It just would not happen.

I hope the shoe trowing becomes popular. There are a few politicians here in Norway that deserves some big and heavy Norwegian winter boot thrown in their general direction :-P

[Idealism]

1. I'm pretty sure the guy will be jailed for a long, long time

So really, whats changed? That he wouldn't be shot on site? Thats sooooo much more civilized

[Gullvann]

2. I hope he will not.

Afterall, it was quite a harmless protest. And, a funny one too.

I will have to try and follow up what happens to this guy. If he and his family dissapears now, I will have to take to the streets again. grrr.

But, I honestly hope it was a sign of a more free people?

Sounds stupid, but I took a bit of hope from it all.

In addition to the chuckles.

[Idealism]

4. You should look up "honour killings in Iraq" on google

There is a void of law in much of the country still, we haven't "civilized" or "liberated" the country in any way. The man will be jailed, you may not hear of it, but he will be detained guarenteed (if he isn't hanged).

[Gullvann]

5. I know "we" haven't "liberated" or "civilized" the country at

all.

We have to regain our civilization at home first.

The current government in Iraq is seen as not being legitimate by many people.

I guess my only point was that the people in Iraq are less scared of their current leaders than they were of Saddam?

So, perhaps there is hope for a better future?

[Idealism]

9. Something to remember

Aristotle said many years ago you cannot have a truly enlightened, civilized society without a strong middle class to keep the country from turning into an oligarchy. The people of Iraq just are not ready on so many differant levels for that type of change, you can't force democracy down a country's throat--especially at the end of a gun like it presently is being issued. Honestly when you look at the number of civilians killed, Saddam looks tame compared to the United States. Saddam may have gassed up to 100,000 Kurds in the 80s, but the US has killed over 1.2 million Iraqi civilians in the less than 6 years that we have been there. So who is really the oppressor of these people?

[Gullvann]

10. Aristotle said many wise things.

It's a tragedy what happened alright.

To make it worse. The war agitated many of the immigrant communities in Europe, making that whole situation worse as well.

Oh, and when Saddam killed the Kurds in the anfal campaign. He was "our bastard".

What will Obama do now?

[Idealism]

11. Hopefully he will get us the hell out of dodge

No reason for us to be there, they have sovereignty now, even if the government isn't exactly legitimate in people's eyes. That will change once we leave if they can keep the country from anarchy. It is a giant mess :/

[Gullvann]

13. I hope you are right.

And, I hope that the progressive forces then will have it easier. When they can work without being seen as "american lackeys"

[Idealism]

15. It will be a hard thing to do but

Violence in the region may go down, if the 'infidels' are seen to no longer be there. The Iraqi government has a lot of forces to resist, between Al-Sadr and his flunkies, to Iran-backed terrorists. They are going to have their hands full, but hopefully with us gone it won't be our problem.

[Gullvann]

16. I like that you seem to have a more realistic

approach to the war than most.

It was bad before the war. The war was hell for many years. And, it is likely to still be bad after the U.S. leaves.

What was it all for?

[Idealism]

17. Only Bush knows the real reasons

It sure as hell wasn't to take out a dictator, because we have a fair share of them much closer than Iraq. And if it was based on oppression levels, Sudan is in much worse shape. My guess is that its a combination of proving Bush Sr. wrong and raping the country of its oil riches. When Rumsfeld was pitching the war initially, he figured future oil profits into the equation to justify why he thought the entire war would only cost $60 billion.

[DCKit]

3. I prefer to believe they'll make a whole lot of noise about it...

then quietly release him in a few months.

He is, after all, an international hero.

[Idealism]

6. Iraq is still under US influence and will have to pretend to care

If there is one thing that you should understand about Saddam was that he knew the only way to rule Iraq presently was with an iron fist. Rule of law is whatever those in charge say it is, and if there aren't harsh punishments for that type of civil disobedience, the rulers will be overthrown by zealots.

[Gullvann]

8. I just hope that the progressive forces in Iraq (and elsewhere)

fight really hard to make their mark. The socialist movement was suppressed by Saddam. But, I guess the invation and everything has made the Mosque and those powers more powerful :-(

[Gullvann]

7. Get him on Oprah :-)

[bigtree]

12. reminds me of Stephen Hadley's comment today

. . . that the agreement itself was the 'political progress' they had been promising.

I hear roadside bombs helped ease Iraqis' rush-hour traffic.

[Gullvann]

14. Who is Hadley?

Roadside bombs helping rush traffic?

Heck, it might be the ultimate tool against global warming from CO2 car emmisions :-(