"you can't have integrity if you don't believe in god"

[ensho]

said a caller on Washington Journal this a.m.

where do people like this get these ideas? from preachers? religious radio preachers? neo con radio mouths?

besides being dangerous, the religiously insane are boring.

[Heidi]

1. That's not an idea. It's mental masturbation of the lowest sort.

It has nothing to do with ideas.

[unpossibles]

2. from stuff like this

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. !!!

:mad: :grr:

[Idealism]

7. Weren't they the traitors in the Civil War?

The ones who wanted to break from the Union, and such?

[rockymountaindem]

8. Not in WV. They counter-seceeded from Virginia n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

10. Hmmm

So... not having imaginary friends is considered lunacy.

Down the rabbit hole for the brazzilionth time.

[polmaven]

51. Personally,

I find your statement as offensive as that of the caller referred to in the OP. I am a Christian, with strong belief. I do NOT insult your integrity or you intelligence for not believing. Why do you fell justified in insulting mine?

[MountainLaurel]

25. Ah, the good Father Briggs

On the bright side, he's not spreading his propaganda anymore unless he's doing it from beyond the grave.

[DonEBrook]

3. Some people are born integrity-deficient and -need- an authority to tell them

how to behave. That's fine except when the authority is more fucked up than the congregant.

[lolly]

4. It's a common meme out there

I remember seeing a op-ed piece in the LATIMES a while back devoted to the premise that there was no possibility for morality without religion.

Many churches teach that, and, from what I can tell, many private religious schools pound that into their students' heads.

A common argument used in this case is "Stalin, Hitler, and Mao were all atheists, therefore atheism makes people immoral and is responsible for evil in the world."

[unpossibles]

people who believe that scare the hell out of me

honestly, I'd rather trust someone who does good because they want to, not just because they thought they had an all-seeing sky-cop watching their every move.

[Lex]

18. exactly right

I feel the same way.

[Selatius]

19. Then you would have liked this guy:

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."

-- Thomas Jefferson

[KansDem]

28. Agreed.

I know atheists who are more "Christian" than many Christians...

[sinkingfeeling]

14. Hitler claimed to be a christian just like Bush.

[ensho]

and the Pope's men sexually abuse kids

with integrity I would assume

[TrogL]

32. Hitler was Catholic

...and the rest is fallacy of the undivided middle.

[lolly]

43. Also a pretty blatant "Hasty Generalization"

But that doesn't stop them.

Those 3 seem to pop up anytime I've come across this argument.

Was Hitler really Catholic? I've heard that he had a mish-mash of Teutonic legend/masculine Christianity beliefs, but not that he was Catholic.

Anyway, the argument tends to go circular, as well, because they start with the unspoken assumption that of course Hitler couldn't have been a Christian, because he was evil. And then the fact that he was evil proves that non-believers are evil.

They also frequently believe that Hitler persecuted the Jews because they were religious and he hated religion.

[hootinholler]

54. Hitler may have been an athiest in private...

But with the slogan Got Mit Uns, he was rather religious in public.

-Hoot

[Aristus]

55. Stalin and Hitler were most definitely NOT atheists. Stalin, although leading a nominally

atheist state, made frequent references to God in his speeches, and attended seminary for a while in his youth.

Hitler larded Christian references all through "Mein Kampf", and insisted that it was the world-historical Christian duty of the Germans to eradicate the Jews. He even rebuked Heinrich Himmler for attempting to replace Christianity with a sort of neo-pagan Germanic religion. Hitler knew how badly he needed the support of Germany's Christians for his political goals.

[Voice for Peace]

5. that's a great line:

"besides being dangerous, the religiously insane are boring. "

[madmom]

9. When my in-laws used to say similar things to me I would just say that my

integrity and morality is far better than their's because it comes from the heart and doesn't have the threat of hell hanging over it!

[el_bryanto]

11. There is a rationale I suppose

I think the argument goes if there is no God, if there is no ultimate standard of Good and Evil all we are left with is our own preferences. In the absence of a God defining Good, how can Good be defined? Or can there be a "Good," beyond "Well this is a nice way for people to act."

Of course there are responses to these questions, but the flip side is that, for most people, if you think you have the answer you don't keep looking.

Bryant

[Bill McBlueState]

22. it's true;

"Why do people behave altruistically?" is an interesting question. But "because my god told me to" is not much of an answer.

[Lex]

12. I once asked a very religious friend of mine that if she found out

there were no god, would she still do the right thing (honesty, fair play, good deeds, etc.) and would she teach her children to do the right thing?

She was totally confounded.

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Had The Same Experience

Nearly identical to yours.
GAC

[JNelson6563]

33. On my path to atheism years ago

I was talking to my brother about it. He said "If there's no hell I'm going to be pissed!!" haha He was of course just being a smart ass, a take off on those who aren't complete hateful assholes simply due to the fear of hell.

Julie

[monmouth]

37. My step-grandmother was big on the "family rosary" after dinner, once

or twice a week. One night my cousin got up from his knees, groaned a little and stated he "was really going to be pi$$ed if this was all for nothing." He was grounded....LOL.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Just about the ultimate statement of ignorance.

And no doubt, when they "god"..they mean THEIR version of "god".

Fanatics, particularly proselytizing fanatics are right next to love of money as the root of all evil.

[RiverStone]

39. Yes! And they are generally way too ignorant to understand their arrogance

Good post! :hi:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. It's an admission that belief in a deity is a form of social control.

Used to bribe or threaten people into good behavior. It does have some validity but it's not an argument for the existence of any deity.

[Dukkha]

17. ask Mitt Romney how that idiotic stance worked out for him

by claiming "freedom requires religion". that was a real boost to his campaign.

[demgurl]

20. From Penn Jilette.....

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

[BrklynLiberal]

21. I never knew Jilette was so eloquent.

[demgurl]

41. Yes, he is eloquent.

He makes very good points, I think. I wish more people felt the way he does in regards to how you live your life.

[awoke_in_2003]

29. "sex, Jell-O"

Or, sex and Jello-o at the same time :) Seriously, that was a well written piece.

[Terran]

36. That kind of agrees with my feelings about altruism

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

IMO, altruism is an evolutionary advantage over the 'murderous ape' model. Being nice to each other helps spread genetic diversity and promotes survival of infants. So I think if everyone understood that there is no god, there'd still be some background urgency toward good behavior. Just a thought.

[demgurl]

42. That is the part that really touches me.

If you believe you only have one chance to get it right then you are more apt to take it seriously. Mind you, I am Buddhist so I believe we get many, many chances but I still strive to live my life in the best way I possibly can.

I also agree that altruism has an evolutionary advantage. And, honestly, it does not hurt to be nice no matter what. I just think that being nice for the sake of being nice is much better than being nice because you are deeply afraid of the consequences if you are not nice.

[Terran]

47. Someone agrees with one of my wacko evolutionary theories!

:loveya: :hug:

[dmallind]

23. From all those, and, collectively, all of us.

Us here being American society. When atheists are the least trusted, least politically palatable, must ignored and marginalized minority opinion group in the nation, we as a nation say it's OK to dehumanize anyone who does not believe.

[ensho]

24. well, they may have tried to dehumanize me but they failed

I chose reality when I was about 11 or 12

[awoke_in_2003]

30. Good for you...

it took me a bit longer. I was 37 (a little of 3 years ago) before I finally got it through my thick skull.

[dmallind]

31. It's not in your mind they seek to dehumanize you

It's in the mind of the vast majority who have not chosen reality - the ones who will refuse to vote for you regardless of your political opinions or acumen, who trust you less than Muslims, Mormons, blacks, Jews, gays and other traditionally despised groups by wide margins, and who see no problem with a president-elect calling you non-citizens.

Since there's 80%+ of them and at best 14% of us, only a couple of percent who care enough to even claim the word atheist, it doesn't matter how resilient we are to dehumanization personally - it's how gullible and credulous the guys who haven't chosen reality are, which by definition is not a comforting criterion by which to judge them.

[ensho]

53. I think there are way more then 14% - many people can't give their

true feelings due to family/job censures

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Is this the same God who has his underling extort protection money from the sheep?

Pass the basket Brothers and Sisters if you'd rather have a condo in heaven than be on the eternal barbecue.

[Birthmark]

27. My answer to such people...

...and ONLY such people is "You can't be honest and believe in god."

[surrealAmerican]

34. It's projection.

I'm very wary of people who say things like this: they're dangerous. If they really believe that the only thing that keeps them from harming others is their "faith", they are libel to do as much harm as they can justify within that faith.

[malaise]

35. I heard that moran

She should talk to Haggert and Bush- in any order.

[hamsterjill]

38. Oh, hogwash!

I am a Christian, but I have plenty of friends who are either agnostic or atheist and they have plenty of integrity.

The best explanation that I've heard is that people who believe like this are simply very insecure. They want everyone to BE just like them, because anyone who is the least bit different than them frightens them.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. There are silly people everywhere, that's all

Of course, that's nonsense.

[dysfunctional press]

44. they generally extend that to mean that if you believe in god, you must have integrity...

which is why one woman on the emmett till jury wouldn't vote against the minister what done it.

[lolly]

45. Also why millions voted

For the "good Christian" George Bush.

[killbotfactory]

46. If a person is incapable of behaving morally and with integrity without the threat of hell

or the promise of heaven, then they are not a moral person and will act accordingly whenever they think they can get away with it.

[MountainLaurel]

48. That's my thought on it as well n/t

[qwlauren35]

49. It's not an idea, it's an opinion.

I would say it's ignorance, and probably from being very sheltered.

If life looks very black and white, then one's opinions will be too.

Many people assume that those of us who are non-religious don't follow any moral code, and don't understand our values.

If you don't "swear to God", then what higher authority to you call upon to witness your sincerity?

If you're raised this way AND it fits what you see around you, there's no reason to reject it.

[sakabatou]

50. ::holds up banner reading 'Citation Needed'::

That's what I'd do with this caller.

[Maestro]

52. Wow.

I have been lucky to be around some rather intelligent Christians who would never say anything like this, but I have noticed that the lower the IQ the more this comes out. Gullible people will believe anything including the fact that we would all fall into depravity if we do not believe. How stupid.

[Locrian]

56. hell

I always thought that the belief in hell was positively repugnant. That someone could accept that a "god" would be the worst mass torturer in the history of existence. That "loved" ones would burn in pain and torture FOREVER if they did not "accept" this god. That this "threat" was the only thing that made us "human" and "moral".

The belief in hell makes an immediate distinction between the "us" and "them" of a cult. It is by definition the worst form of discrimination and hate for fellow man (and woman).


If there is a "trickster" god (um, there's not) - the concept of hell is the greatest "trick" of all.