I'm Disappointed in Biden

[iamjoy]

I'm very disappointed in Vice-President elect Joe Biden. He and his wife bought a dog from a breeder. Millions of good animals are destroyed each year because there is no one to adopt them. This was an opportunity for VPE Biden to lead by example and show the country how easy it is to get a good dog from the local shelter or rescue society.

Nope, he had to act like an elitist and go to a breeder.

It's very sad.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Actually, I agree with you. nt

[fadedrose]

268. On the surface, I agree, but..

This puppy will be trained for whatever the Vice President wants it to do, tricks and routine stuff, in addition to whatever the Secret Service might want - like loud noises, guns, drug/bomb sniffing, and other weird stuff. It would be easier to train the dog if it's background were known. It can't have fear of lightening or allergies, or thrown shoes.

On the couch next to me is a dog that my son got from the rescue center that we love dearly. She's a pure beagle and the most wonderful dog a person could have. But this isn't the Vice President's residence. Biden is a man, not a kid, and he wants it for company and to accompany him on jets, etc. The dog needs to be very special if it's going to be with rulers and royalty, not to mention the President's family and dog/dogs.

President Obama wants his dog for the girls. It needn't be trained for anything other than to lick their faces and not poop in the house. This dog can easily be selected from a shelter and through the eyes of children, would be the best dog in the world.

If the President, however, wants a dog for himself, he would do well to follow Biden's example and select a dog with good breeding so it could be useful as well as lovable. One can never have enough protection.

[DainBramaged]

2. I am too, but I look forward to the good he will do in the People's house

If that is the worst we can say about him in the next 4 years, I'll take it and try to adopt an animal to make up for his 'error'.

[Mojambo]

3. A shelter dog never would have passed the vetting process. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. Well, a mutt WAS vetted in as pResident in '00 and again in '04.

:evilgrin: The Bu$h family are mutts. I do not mean to degrade mutts in general, just bu$h family mutts.

[verges]

130. Obame refers to himself as a mutt. nt

[Runcible Spoon]

8. why?

is there some official code somewhere that says that only purebreds may grace the Vice Presidential abode? There is absolutely no reason to believe that a pound puppy would be any less suitable of a pet than a purebred.

[The Doctor.]

173. Either you're the straightest straight-man...

or that actually went over your head.

:silly:

[Runcible Spoon]

202. didn't tweak my sarcasm meter....

I wasn't in a giggly mood on this thread :evilfrown:

[Orsino]

185. The lack of a birth certificate would tie up the adoption in courts. n/t

[The Doctor.]

172. Ughhhhh....

You spay me.

[LeftyMom]

4. It's a scamtastic puppy mill too.

:grr:

[Runcible Spoon]

5. yep, it's hard to believe they wouldn't have vetted this better

either that or they didn't care...either way it sucks for the poor dogs who die in shelters everyday...

[laconicsax]

25. And you know that it's a puppy mill how?

[LostinVA]

28. Because it is

A "front" business, 200+ dogs, 250+ puppies a year, etc. LeftyMom is right.

[laconicsax]

34. I'd have liked a link, but finding out on my own was more fun.

Definitely a puppy mill.

http://abbyk9.blogspot.com/2008/12/breaking-news.html

[Muttocracy]

44. Had seen the AKC suspension but not those #s... Only hope it will educate people

and I think people will pay more attention to the Obamas than the Bidens.

[LeftyMom]

30. Because there are five litters currently on site. Because the owner was suspended from the AKC for

a year for filing fraudulent registrations. Because some of the dogs are kept offsite. Because the kennel operates under multiple names. Because Google Earth doesn't show nearly enough space for 80 dogs in the house, so they're being kept in outbuildings. Because she sold 250+ dogs last year, by her own admission. Because there's no way to socialize that many dogs.

Plus it's rural Pennsylvania, which is puppy mill central. And she's got a K5 license, which is a license to house 250+ dogs annually, which is way too many for a normal breeder.


Any one would be suspicious. All those facts together? It's a mill.

[laconicsax]

46. I hadn't seen any of this prior to responding to your comment.

All I had seen was OPs saying that Biden got the dog from a breeder and comments calling it a puppy mill with no supporting evidence or links--it was reminiscent of the Obama puppy threads where breeder=puppy mill was automatically assumed, regardless of fact.

[LeftyMom]

51. Understood. I only saw a few links, so I did my own research.

Independent verification is always good.

[LostinVA]

52. I personally have nothing against REAL breeders, who breed to better the breed

Especially for working breeds like GSDs and Border Collies (we aave two from working lines) and field breeds.

[LostinVA]

47. Posters need to understand that getting suspened from the AKC is almost impossible

They LOVE puppy mills, they are their bread and butter. They have some horrible millers who are AKCers in good standing,so to be suspended means you are the worst of the absolute worst.

And, lots of those PA puppy muills are run by those wonderfully quaint Christian Amish and Mennonites. The Gov of PA has adopted puppy mill dogs who have wound up in rescues -- and has tried to get laws passed to shut down the mills.

As Haruka just said, all you ahve to do is look at the poor pup to know it's not a "real" GSD. Haruka grew up with the breed, and her mom just got a puppy from a top Schultzhund breeder -- that puppy looks like one from Germany, or how they looked here 30-40 years ago.

I really am surprised about this.

[DonEBrook]

38. ALL commercial breeders run puppy mills. It's the DEFINITION of them.

:grr:

[laconicsax]

43. I was asking how LeftyMom knew, since I hadn't read anything that supported the accusation.

After finding out that it is, indeed a commercial operation, I agree that it's a puppy mill.

You can chill the fuck out at your leisure.

[DonEBrook]

62. I am hereby leisurely fucking the chill out ... or chilling the fuck out...

or outing the chill fuck...well, something. :D

[Journeyman]

7. Yes. If that's what he did, I have to agree with you . . .

I hesitate to admit this, but we got one of our present dogs from a breeder. It was a particular breed my daughter was convinced she had to have. It turned out to be a wonderful animal, but when we went to get a companion for her, we went the rescue route instead and have enjoyed our second dog as much as the first. Actually, we like the rescue mutt better, probably because we know his story and realize what our intervention in his life has meant for him.

[Cattledog]

10. I have one dog from a breeder and 2 from shelters

[lonestarnot]

14. Couldn't tell by looking which is which.

[Journeyman]

16. Ya lost me. . .

I haven't a clue what your response is supposed to mean, either as an answer to me or a comment to the OP.

[Cattledog]

17. Originally for OP

[Journeyman]

23. I thought so . . .

great looking dogs, by the way -- and I agree with lonestarnot, you can't tell by looking at 'em which is which,

[DonEBrook]

42. We have a heeler mix that showed up in our driveway as a barely-weaned pup

2 years ago. She was literally hours away from death from all sorts of ailments. Got her to the vet and now she is happy and healthy (but 95% deaf...although she doesn't know it) :-)

[bdamomma]

45. cute dogs, and look very well behaved.

can't tell either.

[HillbillyBob]

57. We love cattle dogs, my aide dog is a cattle/springer spaniel mix

that the owners of the orignial parents were going to destroy them because the male cattle dog got in to the spaniels pen and she had mixed puppies. Aussies have great sense of humor too.
She knows when I am going to have a seizure 4 hrs to a day or two out.
Our other two are a chessie /smooth collie mix shelter dog and a collie/kuvasz mix who was badly abused and neglected that came from a shelter too.
Now that we live in the country and have acres with fence we may take in yet another one or two, but they each have to have time go blend in to the family.

[XemaSab]

156. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of your dog, would you?

We've got a springer mix and a cattle dog mix, and I'm really curious about what a mix of THOSE would look like.

[XemaSab]

155. Dingoes!

:bounce:

(We've had two cattle dog mixes in the past few years... they're GREAT dogs. :D )

[tblue37]

193. Oh, my. I am in love with your dogs! nt

[shireen]

236. too cute!

those are three very adorable little fellas!

[shireen]

237. too cute!

those are three very adorable little fellas!

[Dappleganger]

238. We did the same...

one from a breeder and the other from a rescue. The one from the breeder is gorgeous, but she is so stubborn and disobedient. The one from the rescue, on the other hand, is so easy to get along with and very easy to train.

[northernlights]

9. I'm with you on this one

Every time somebody buys a dog instead of rescuing, another dog is put to death. It is a sad fact.

I truly wish Biden had chosen to save a life. There is no love like that of a shelter pup.

[pnwmom]

39. Maybe Biden didn't want to get a dog with all the problems coming from

being born in a puppy mill and ending up in a shelter.

[LostinVA]

63. Most rescue dogs aren't puppy mill dog with problems

WTF???

Most rescue dogs haven't been abused. They just haven't been wanted.Many are young dogs: puppies to a year old. Both of our Border Collies were rescues, both puppies, both from excellent working lines, and both very healthy and happy and not abused. Your post is Animal Rescue Myth #1.

[pnwmom]

83. My post is based on what I found when I tried to get a puppy from one of the

local shelters. The vast majority were adults, and the few puppies -- other than pitbulls -- were closer to 6 months old than to 3.

[LeftyMom]

122. Adoptable puppies near you.

http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=&pet.Age=baby&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=seattle%2C+wa

Plenty of great dogs, looks like most are private rescues, though probably a lot of those were removed from municipal shelters to get a better chance at placement.

[populistdriven]

171. A friend of mine has a dog that was found in a dumpster she is the best pet/friend you could ask for

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

67. HE BOUGHT A PUPPY MILL DOG

[pnwmom]

84. Do you have a link for that?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

88. Read the thread

[Shardik]

11. Okay, I'll go to a shelter tomorrow and pick up a pup to be my Lab's buddy

to offset the Biden's getting a pedigreed dog...

Uh, and my getting one too.

I think I'm serious here. I also need my head examined for adopting another canine. I'm already sending my vet's kids to college.

[MiniMe]

72. Look for Lab Rescues too

I volunteer for a lab rescue, if you PM me and tell me where you are, I can tell you what rescues operate in your area. :hi:

It's hard to tell the responsible breeders from the mills sometimes.

[burythehatchet]

116. My career as a foster for Atlanta Lab was short circuted

when I adopted the first dog they placed with me.

[MiniMe]

121. Yeah, sort of a hazard for fostering. LOL

I have 2 now, the 2nd is a puppy mill dog. But I still foster, I like helping the dogs and my dogs enjoy the company.

[Shardik]

200. Wow! I may have found a four month old black Lab

a couple of hours away...

"Four month old black Lab female.

Bred by an irresponsible back yard breeder who could not sell this puppy so he left her chained outdoors to become weak and debilitated and she has suffered damage to one of her rear legs.
Fortunatley, a neighbor involved with Golden Retriever rescue heard the screams of a puppy and when she investigated, she found this poor baby with her leg twisted up and away from her body. Knowing the puppy was in a great deal of pain and needed medical attention, she pleaded and encouraged the breeder to give her up to rescue so she could receive the proper care she needed.

We are glad to say that Miracle is on the mend and doing great!
By the way, Miracle comes from a back yard breeder in xxxxxxxxxxxx.
Another good reason not to buy a puppy from a back yard breeder!!"

I have sent an email and hope that it works out.

[MiniMe]

210. Great job!

Are you considering adopting her? I'm glad you went to look at rescues! :hug:

[Shardik]

213. I am.

But they haven't returned my email or phone call yet.

"Labrador Retriever rescue of Middle Tennessee is a non-profit organization which is based upon individuals that foster and/or provide assistance for Labradors needing new homes.
Many of the Labradors that come through Labrador rescue are those given to rescue because their owners can no longer care for the dog for such reasons as divorce, job change and relocation or perhaps the owners did not realize that the cute puppy they purchased for Christmas would grow up to be such a responsibility. Other Labradors brought to us may come from shelters or they may be strays.
Regardless of why the Labrador is in our rescue program, we make every effort to rehome these individuals with superb families or caring individuals.

Labrador Rescue is not a facility, pound or shelter.
Most Labradors in our program are being fostered by individuals that provide a temporary home and care until a permanent home can be found."

If you have any pull with them, PM me.

[MiniMe]

215. Be patient, most rescue volunteers have full time jobs and they are doing

what they can to help the dogs in the rescue. It's hard to be patient when you are excited about something like you are now.:hug:

[Shardik]

234. Thanks...

I spent all night talking with my Lab to assure her that she will still be loved. :)

If this one doesn't work out I'm sure there's another pup out there.

[MiniMe]

239. Tell your dog that this will be her dog.

And she will be your dog. :hug:

[Shardik]

242. Great idea.

I reeally hope this pans out.

[Retrograde]

233. I'm not a dog person, but I got two cats yesterday

from the local shelter. One kitten, one 4-year old, not related. They're in "armed truce" mode right now.

All the dogs I had growing up were pound dogs, and most of my cats were. Good, healthy animals despite the occasional personality quirks. But that makes them interesting.

[Inspired]

12. Maybe he wanted this puppy?

Let our new VP enjoy his new puppy without the guilt trip. At least he didn't buy it from Petland.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. What's the difference if he gets the dog direct from a puppy mill or from Petland?

Both are puppy mill dogs.

[Inspired]

87. What should happen to puppies born in puppy mills?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. The owners of the puppy mills should be arrested and tossed in jail for a long ass time

And never allowed to have animals again.

The dogs should be rescued, spayed/neutered and adopted out, so fucking scumbag SOCIOPATHS don't profit off them and perpetuate the cycle.

What do you think should happen to puppies born in puppy mills?

[Inspired]

99. What do I think should happen?

I think they should go to good homes, like the home that the Biden family is going to give their new puppy.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. I agree that they should go to good homes, but that criminal sociopaths shouldn't make a profit

I don't understand why you have a problem with my viewpoint.

[Inspired]

179. I actually agree with you more than disagree.

But I understand why you think I have a problem with your viewpoint. I apologize for that because I am on your side. I'm just not going to go negative against Biden.

I was sincere when I asked the question about what should happen to the puppies. It's a question I've asked myself many times.

I have 2 cats that I rescued from our local shelter. I didn't get them as kittens. They were both older cats and they have some behavior problems (why else would they have been given up) but I love them to pieces. They are both in my home to stay.

If I ever get a new pet, I will go back to the same shelter.

I just think that the Biden's should be able to enjoy their new puppy without any guilt. I think their hearts were in the right place. Their puppy is going to be well loved and cared for.

[leftchick]

197. what is really strange to me

Is his dog trainer he hired actually recommended this particular puppy mill. It is maddening he did not know better!

:grr:

[OwnedByFerrets]

219. The same thing that happens to MANY of them....they should be

rescued. Happens daily.

[sandyj999]

91. They are one and the same. n/t

[AllentownJake]

13. I think there is some compromise on this issue

Seriously as long as the dealer was reputable and not a puppy mill I don't see the problem. I understand the desire to save animals however, certain breeds have certain characteristics that people want. If I had the money right now and the space I would get a Komondor puppy because I like the breed. The way the breed looks and its personality traits. Plus if you buy from a reputable breeder they don't give you animals unfixxed unless you pay extra...because well the family line is a valuable commodity to them.

I'm all for muts but certain breeds are absolutely awesome and if I'm making the time commitment to a dog in training and the monetary investment I'm willing to pay up front for a better chance I get a dog with the qualities I like. With a mutt you don't know what your getting.

That being said I have adopted two cats from a shelter and they are absolutely wonderful.

[LeftyMom]

24. It's a puppy mill. nt

[Cattledog]

15. Elitist?

Get off your fucking high horse! One of these dogs is from a breeder the other 2 are rescues. Am I an elitist?

[gaspee]

174. The one on the far right

Is the dog you got from a breeder, right?

[Cattledog]

266. You win the prize!

[gaspee]

267. It's actually quite clear

Which one is the pure bred cattle dog. But I'm one of those silly people who goes to dog shows. We've got a nice working blue heeler who is taking a lot of breed wins in the shows around here.

My friend with a huge ranch in Texas has had heelers for as long as I can remember. Great dogs, but they need a job or they're not quite so great.

They're all beautiful, but it's pretty clear which one is all heeler.

[opihimoimoi]

18. I will stick up for our man Joe....he is an old guy and if he wants a GS dog

and can afford one...why not....the kind of dog/breed he desired are not found too often in pounds. Hence his action of purchase...

Its his business and none of mine...

If ole Joe is a Happy Camper for the dog...So be it....

I had them in my younger years, G Sheperds, Samoyeds, and mutts.....my best was a mutt of terrier/chiuaua.....small crap to clean, not smelly, and an ankle biter....Chiquita was our best dog...

[LeftyMom]

20. No shortage of GSDs in rescues and shelters.

Here's a list of adoptable german shepherds near DC. Took me <30 seconds.

http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?breed=german+shepherd&tmpl=&preview=&animal=Dog&preview=&zip=washington%2C+DC

[opihimoimoi]

26. Whatever.....perhaps he didn't know of the availability and just wanted a dog of his choice

AKC. Male....Puppy....not mixed.....who knows...

The fact is he got one and we all should be Happy for him....

I am....

[LeftyMom]

33. And a shelter dog that could have been adopted died instead.

Fuck breeders.

[opihimoimoi]

70. NOBODY SAID LIFE HAD TO BE FAIR and W/O GUILT....ITS a fucked up world

we got all kind s of global troubles...big kine probs...Over POP, Lack of food water top soil reason sanity, rising oceans, dying reefs, loss of jobs, loss of homes, etc etc

and we gonna worry about Joe's Dog?

[LeftyMom]

106. Then go start a thread about those things. This is a thread about his dog.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have clicked, so stop bitching.

[opihimoimoi]

111. Look who is bitching.....stop being fucking dog cop

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. In some places there are "dog cops" precisely because of the type of person Biden got the dog from

Just an FYI.

[LeftyMom]

119. Sorry, no. Animal issues are kinda my thing, and I do rescue, so this matters to me.

If you don't want to read about this, ignore the thread. Or me, fuck if I care.

[jrockford]

253. Maybe he didn't know? That's absurd, he has more people helping him than any of us

but you can blindly "be happy for him" if you like.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. Well, if he wants a German Shepherd, there are tons of rescues and there are REAL breeders

There's no reason to buy a German Shepherd from a puppy mill ever. They already have so many problems.

He definitely has the money to get one from good lines, like my mom just did. Parents from Germany, top Schutzhund titles. They look like German Shepherds should look. Not the deformed excuses for GSD's that the AKC is peddling these days.

[iamjoy]

107. Afford It?

That is a problem in this society, people think because they can (afford something) that is alright. It's not always right. Just because some one can afford a Hummer and afford the gas for it doesn't make it right to own one, because their use of gas drives up prices for everyone - even those who can ill afford it.

Just because some one can afford a purebred doesn't mean no one else is affected. There are thousands of dogs killed each day in this country, in part because no one wants to adopt them. Breeders contribute to the problem. When people buy from breeders, they are supporting that.

While I am disappointed, I don't overall think less of VPE Biden - I'm saddened by this decision.

[OwnedByFerrets]

220. You are so very wrong. You can find every breed of dog....

thousands and thousands of them registered and purebred at shelters and rescues.

[Libertyfirst]

19. Dogs from breeders need homes also. n/t

[LeftyMom]

22. Breeders need to stop breeding more while dogs are dying for lack of homes.

If they cared they'd put the needs of animals ahead of their profits.

[gaspee]

175. Profits?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I've been breeding dogs for 15 years. Haven't made a profit on a litter yet. I must be doing something wrong.

I know where every single dog I've ever bred is. I rescue dogs that come from puppy mills and irresponsible breeders.

Guess I'm just pure evil.

[LostinVA]

177. That's because you aren't a miller

I know alot of Border Collie people -- REAL BCs, not those fluffy, fat big AKC Barbie Collies -- they all breed to better the working lines, and they operate at a loss. EXCEPT for when they breed a Sheepdog Trial champ.

[hughee99]

21. I'm actually not a fan of the "get a pet" stuff

that goes on in politics. If you like dogs (or cats, or horses, or whatever), you'd probably already have one. They don't come with the position so you can run them out on the lawn for the occasional photo op when you need to "soften" your image and then forget them the rest of the year.

As the owner of a dog who would have been on his way to the shelter had I not taken him, I would have liked to see Biden get a rescue/shelter dog.

[LostinVA]

27. It's from a puppy mill, not a breeder

I am very disappointed in the Bidens for this.

[pnwmom]

29. It's not that easy to get a healthy young PUPPY from a local shelter,

unless you want a pit bull.

Most of the dogs are older, and given up by their owners because they didn't work out. They often have training issues, too. Biden has enough on his plate. He's owned German Shephards in the past, and he's purchased this one from a reputable breeder.

I don't think any of us should begrudge either Biden or Obama their chose of a puppy.

[LeftyMom]

31. Bullshit. Here's a list of adoptable GSD pups near DC.

http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=german+shepherd&pet.Age=baby&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=20001

[Greyhound]

41. Sorry LeftyMom, I was so outraged, I didn't stop to read your reply first. n/t

[LeftyMom]

48. No problem.

[Greyhound]

40. Utter bullshit. How many breed specific rescue organizations would you like me to list?

OTOH, Joe Biden has made a career out of disappointing us "little people", so why would anyone expect different now?

[pnwmom]

110. And they're usually older dogs or dogs with problems, and that's why

they were given up by their owners.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. I have TWO purebred rescue dogs (Border Collies)

Neither of them have issues.

We got Mick with his ABCA registration papers at 6 months old. He's from TOP working lines. He was given up because he ran around too much and chewed on things. Guess what? He's just a high-drive Border Collie. He's quite calm around the house if he gets a bit of exercise and doesn't chew on anything, he's not supposed to, because we give him lots of toys, which the former owner apparently didn't.

Beag was a fluffy 4-month-old pup. No problems with her. She's actually unbelievably well-behaved. She was given up because the former owner was an idiot and bought her right before moving cross-country to PA.

You're just being fucking ignorant if you think all rescue dogs have problems or are old. Lots of them were given up because their owners were too stupid to realize they shouldn't have a puppy or picked out the wrong breed.

[gaspee]

176. Every pup we have in rescue right now

Has issues. All are from millers.

Two of them need thousands of dollars worth of surgery so they can walk normally because of luxating patellas.

Most dogs we get in our rescue (Shiba Inu) are young adults or teenagers who need a lot of work. The people bought them from millers, not breeders, and had no idea what they were getting into.

Very rarely. And I mean once every few years, do we get a young, healthy pup with no issues.

That said, the teenagers, with the training they get in rescue and foster care, by people who know the breed and how to handle them, make FANTASTIC pets.

Puppies are a huge commitment. I am extremely careful where I place my puppies. Shiba litters typically average 3 puppies so I'm never in a rush to place them and never have a problem placing two to three puppies a year into homes that are prepared for the challenges of a puppy.

I am sick and tired pf the broad brush used around here on anyone who breeds animals.

My dogs are my life. I know lots of people "in dogs" who are the same way. There is a huge difference between a responsible breeder and a miller.

On DU, all breeders are painted as evil.

You're wrong.

[LostinVA]

178. think you need to tell Haruka "You're right."

She's AGREEING with you. She also isn't anti-breeder, as you can see if you raed the thread. We're friends with lots of people who do rescue, and who breed -- specifically Border Collies and guaqrdian dogs. Around here, most of the puppies in rescue AREN'T mill dogs, but stray litter dogs.

Don't get confused and argue with someone who thinks teh same way you do!

[gaspee]

212. Sorry

I meant that to the radicals whose agenda is actually to "free" dogs from the bonds of ownership - their agenda is no pets whatsoever. Which I find to be a really sad idea. Pet companionship is a wonderful thing -

Edited to add: in my part of the country (southern New England) we don't have enough shelter dogs to meet demand. We import them from shelters in other parts of the country (mostly the south and midwest.)

For the people here to demand that I don't breed companion animals because there are animals in pounds - I tell them to police their own damn backyards and keep their nose out of mine.

It's just so frustrating to listen to these wankers go on and on when they know absolutely nothing.

Oh yeah - we get that in the LGBTQ forum too - the clueless trying to educate us.

I have to take a vow to myself to never click on one of these breeding threads, LOL! My blood pressure can't take it and I don't have health insurance.

[LostinVA]

227. I shouldn't, either -- and neither should Haruka

Because of the Clueless about Puppy Mills contingent!

It's good you don't have enough dogs for shelters. It's sad there are too many in other parts of the country.

[LostinVA]

53. Twaddle -- go to PetSmart any weekend -- lots of healthy puppies, even GSDs

And, most AREN'T Pits or Pit mixes.

[XemaSab]

160. I went to the pound last month

They had puppies, young dogs, and older dogs.

They had dogs that were given up for behavior problems, but a lot of the dogs they had were family pets surrendered because the owners were getting foreclosed on and couldn't keep them. :cry:

I wound up getting a young dog that was picked up as a stray. (I wanted an older dog, but little Maddy looked SO SAD I had to get her.)

Maddy is a German Shepherd/Border Collie/????, and she's a real sweetie. She's the second dog we've adopted from the pound, and we're 2/2 with getting great dogs so far. :D

[jules1962]

192. BALONEY On NO PUPS AT SHELTERS

There are dogs of all ages at shelters and rescues. I have been involved with these programs for half of my life. No excuse to go to a puppy mill EVER. I am really pissed about Joe doing this. There are to many dogs that need homes now.

[PVnRT]

205. What?

I sat and watched my girlfriend at the time who worked for a shelter put down five perfectly healthy puppies in one day. Because people like you think that anything from a shelter is clearly defective and hostile and will have behavioral problems, she got to murder them.

But, I guess the AKC zombies who just HAVE to have the hip, pure-bred dog don't really care anyway.

[jrockford]

254. Uhm...that's completely false. LeftyMom has posted links numerous times, but you continue to repeat

this garbage.

Why?

[adadem]

32. Agree, too

Best dog we've ever had is a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Labrador Retriever mix from a rescue.
He was scheduled to go to a testing lab when he was rescued from the county pound.

Here he is....Cody

Bellowood Rescue

[pnwmom]

37. Pretty dog! Looks more like a lab, but with the GSM coloring. Nice. n/t

[Muttocracy]

35. I'm disappointed too. Wish they'd gone for breed rescue.

Several stories suggested it came from talking to some police who had GSDs and who narrowed down breeders. I wonder if the Bidens even know about breed rescue (many people don't), and the cops may not have suggested it. (A number of police departments do work with GSD rescue groups - some of the young GSDs that are too much for families to handle need a job to do and are perfect for police, tracking or SAR work).

He could have gone to MAGSR - http://magsr.org/ - they get puppies sometimes and I'm sure they'd have been happy to save one for the VP!

I doubt I'll ever have anything but mutts myself, but I support breed rescue and have volunteered for several groups. Often those people know the needs of their breed and which homes for them are the best. And I prefer the saying "If you breed, rescue; if you don't rescue, don't breed." One of the best dog rescue people I ever met breeds GSDs. She breeds a single litter every few years and there are LONG LONG waiting lists for her dogs. If a breeder doesn't have a waiting list before the puppies are even on the way, they're not being responsible. I was initially sad about the decision, felt a bit better looking at the dogs on the breeder's website (they are not the obvious genetic nightmares many GSDs are), but then when I saw how many puppies at once... I wouldn't call it a puppy mill since I think of that term for places that sell to dealers and not direct to the public, or for places that are breeding dozens of dogs of various breeds and keeping them in cages... but it's not an ideal breeder. She also isn't working any of her dogs for working titles which is a bad sign in GSDs.

I can't imagine the Bidens or the Obamas really having time for a young dog in general. I saw two posts on my local Craigslist last night from people with kids under the age of 4 looking for large breed puppies. Sigh.

on edit - seeing the #s posted upthread - yes, it's a puppy mill :(

[DonEBrook]

36. I thought that exact same thing when I saw the story...that woman dog breeder disgusted me.

goddammit, he could have done so much better. grr.

[deaniac21]

49. Me too, for decades. Thank goodness Obama is in charge!

[tledford]

50. I demand that Biden resign.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

55. Don't roll your eyes -- puppy mills are a HUGE and horrible problem in this country

[tledford]

60. I'll allow myself to feel sorry for animals once we've quit allowing PEOPLE to live this way.

And yes, I love (and own) one dog and two cats -- all rescue pets.

Perspective, people, perspective.

[LostinVA]

61. Gosh, I'm able to feel and empathy for BOTH humans and animals

I have the PERSPECTIVE that all living creatures deserve the right to happiness.

[DonEBrook]

64. Some of us might think your emphasis on the "own" part is a bit strange.

I don't think that, of course...not me. Er, not I.

[LostinVA]

66. Yeah, I noticed that too, and commented on it to my wife

:wtf:

[DonEBrook]

73. It probably is innocuous. I tell people "I HAVE 3 dogs and 2 cats"

which is kinda like saying I "own" them but I don't ever use that word...it doesn't describe how I/we view our furry friends...as 'property'. :-)

[LostinVA]

78. We have two Border Collies and a kitty

I've never used that word to describe their relationship to me, because they are honestly family members. I totally understand why people during Katrina wouldn't leave without their pets.

Actually, the spoiled buggers DO kinda own us.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

74. I'm sorry, but I'm capable of caring about both people and animals

It's sad that you can't.

[PVnRT]

206. Oh Christ

Yes, yes, we can only care about ONE FUCKING THING at a time. My apologies.

Care to tell us all what we're supposed to give a shit about? I will make it my all-consuming passion to the exclusion of everything else.

[sandyj999]

54. This is America.

I have rescued many dogs including a Greyhound from a dog track but if I want a dog that has a specific look to it then I will go to a reputable breeder and spend my American dollars on a dog. I see nohing wrong with it.

[Greyhound]

58. Why am I not surprised?

Let me guess, you just found out, once the economy hit you personally, about how fucked life has become in the last three decades, too?

[LostinVA]

69. But this isn't a reputable breeder -- and the pup doesn't look like a "real" GSD

[sandyj999]

81. I know nothing about this breeder.

But if she does have multiple litters going then in my book she is a puppy mill. I am talking about people that have a particular breed of dog and may raise a litter or two of puppies because they love the breed. Not knowing that much about German Shepherds I wouldn't know what to look for. I am more of a Welsh or Airedale type of person. And as far as horrible puppy mills go I was amazed to find out the Amish are some of the worst offenders. I won't get all wound up on puppy mills now or the pet stores that sell them as this isn't the right forum for that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. She sells over 250 puppies a year

[sandyj999]

90. Then yes she is running a puppy mill.

More like a factory. They condemn Michael Vick for what he did but she in her own way is no better. It's all exploitation of animals.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. I agree -- both should be in jail for a very long time and never have another animal

[sandyj999]

102. Isn't a police officer or someone it that line of work involved in this?

And if so why would he deal with someone like that? Doesn't say much for his character.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

104. Lots of cops are low character

Hell, we had one in a nearby town that stole a bunch of breakfast sandwiches from a convenience store AFTER collecting money from the other cops to pay from the sandwiches. He apparently did it almost every day.

This place also has a "front" kennel that is apparently quite nice. The owner has another facility made to house up to 250 dogs. That's probably the bulk of where all the breeding takes place.

[sandyj999]

109. I am not only in Michigan but very near Detroit.

Dishonest cop is not an unheard expression around here. It kind of fits with the dishonest mayor. And actually Petland is a nice clean shiny front also.

[VAliberal]

56. What happens to 'puppy mill' bred puppies at your average pet store

when they are not purchased?

Looks to me like it sucks all the way around for the dogs.

[DonEBrook]

65. More especially in east Asia.

:scared:

[mentalsolstice]

59. I'm going to go out on a limb here

I'm against puppy mills, and have given plenty of donations to my favorite rescue (pugs). However, I'm not against reputable breeders (and I don't know if Biden's breeder is reputable, or not). I've seen plenty of DUers here support a particular breed rescue. I have bought (the breeder had 2 females) and I have been adopted, as my current pug, oddly enough, was a stray.

If we want to continue dog breeds, then buying from reputable breeders is, at least, understandable. Many of us support certain breeds, because they fit our needs (a good apartment dog, good with children, good for the elderly, good for the outdoors, etc.).My husband and I like pugs, as they're low-maintenance, generally quiet, and easy to travel by car with. However, when looking at our local rescue on any given day, there are not any pugs that would fit into our lifestyle because of special needs (require lots of medical attention, do not travel well, can't have another pet in the household, etc.). The pugs that don't have special needs are in high demand and adopt out very quickly.

Our current pug, a stray, is aggressive. We had to keep her separated from our elderly pug while she was still alive. Currently, we also have yellow Lab (another stray with special needs), and we have to supervise the two of them constantly. Fortunately, I'm at home most of the time, so supervision falls upon me. If I had a job, one or both of our dogs would not fit into our household, because of their special needs.

I can see why the Bidens would get a young pup that can be trained for their specific needs. I realize any dog can end up not being a match, however you probably have a better chance with a well-bred, well-trained pup meeting your specific needs. As for the dogs in shelters or rescues, I blame the puppy mills, and the uninformed buyers of pups, whether they buy from a mill or a breeder.

I guess what I'm saying is...I support good, responsible breeding practices...and responsible, informed ownership.

This being said, whether they come from a reputable breeder or a rescue, you'll have to pry my pugs out of my cold, dead fingers (I've had them since I was 7 y.o., and I'm 48 now)!

edited for clarification

[LostinVA]

75. I don't ahve a problem with REAL breeders either -- but this is definitely a puppy mill

I actually like having breeders who breed for the betterment of the breed -- especially for working dogs like Border Collies, Heelers, GSDs, etc. We have two Border Collies, both from excellent working lines (which means they are NOT AKC!), and both rescues.

Haruka's mom just got a GSD puppy from a great breeder in NY State -- they bred one litter every two years. The parents are highly-rated Schultzhund dogs from German lines. I, personally, have no problem with this, although I know some of my compadres on this thread do, and I respect that. I just wish the Bidens had done this, instead of feeding the PA puppy mill horror.

Oh,and Pugs suck.

hehehehehhehehehe

KIDDING. They are cute little goofballs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

76. My issue is that he went to a puppy mill (with a front business)

Not that he got a purebred. My dogs are purebred rescues, and my mom just bought a GSD pup from a great breeder.

[MiniMe]

77. I'm guessing that this "breeder" was recommended to him

Many people don't realize what it means to check out a good breeder. I just hope that the pup doesn't have health problems or a genetic problem like hip dysplasia. I think that education on puppy mills is in order here.

[LostinVA]

80. Yup, good post

[Muttocracy]

148. yes, some K-9 officers suggested this one :(

[elleng]

79. If this is the worst you have to say about Joe Biden,

then we're lucky.

DITCH the 'elitist' bit; thats a REPUB sound bite, dontcha get it?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

82. I don't think buying a pure bred dog is elitist

I do think buying an AKC conformation dog is really stupid, and I think supporting a puppy mill is fucking ignorant at best.

Unfortunately, he bought a puppy mill dog.

[iamjoy]

98. I Think So Much of Him

I think a lot of Joe Biden. In spite of his bizarre allegiance to the vampires better known as credit card companies, I think he's basically a good guy who looks out for the common folk. Despite his verbal gaffes (which are sort of cute) I think he's smart. I

That's why I'm so surprised he didn't go for the mutt, the common dog. The dog who will be killed if it doesn't get a home. That's why I'm surprised he bought from a questionable dealer - if he wanted a purebred, there are other routes to take. To me, there's something pretentious about insisting on a purebred from a breeder. That's why I use the term "elitist."

Hey, it doesn't make me dislike Joe Biden. It would hardly be fair to judge him on that basis. Our country does have far bigger problems. Besides, my husband's parents bought a standard poodle from a breeder and the puppy is adorable and smart. BTW - from what they say, it was a good breeder, they met the lady and dam before the litter was even born. Yet still, fond as I am of my father-in-law, he can be a bit of a...well...elitist.

[OwnedByFerrets]

221. Its not elitist? Its repugnant to buy from a puppy mill.

[flvegan]

85. So am I.

Yup, I've got a great GSD in my rescue I'd have been happy to adopt to him, as do dozens of other rescues across the country.

[LostinVA]

92. I was wondering where you've been!

[flvegan]

93. Sorry, Top Gear was on.

[Sewsojm]

94. My Girls,

I wish more people would go to shelters & rescue's , my two girls have been a real joy,


Sheba



Angel "not living up to her name in this pic"

[smokey nj]

95. Looks like Angel had lots of fun in the mud!

:rofl:
Beautiful puppies you have there!

[Sewsojm]

100. Thanks,

Thanks, I couldn't believe it when I saw what a mess she was, had no idea she had been playing in the mud till it was too late, you'd never guess she looked like this when I got her,

Angel pup,

[smokey nj]

103. So cute!

[LostinVA]

96. What pretty dogs -- Sheba is especially striking

[Sewsojm]

105. thanks,

thanks, Sheba is a very striking looking dog and the most intelligent dog I've ever owned, I was told they thought she was part Belgian Shepherd & German Shepherd.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

115. Yeah, she's gorgeous

German Shepherds are my favorite breed, but LostinVA won't let me have one...so we have two Border Collies instead. They are awesome in their own right.

[XemaSab]

161. What would you guess Angel is?

:shrug:

Beautiful dogs!

[Sewsojm]

228. We think

We think she's mixed Sheltie & Collie, the rescue people listed her as part Sheltie.

[OwnedByFerrets]

223. Angel made me LAUGH OUT LOUD. Thank you for sharing.

[NeedleCast]

108. Demand Purity!

[MasonJar]

112. i agree with you as an animal lover. My 4 animals are all ones I saved.

However, all animals are important; it is not an animal's fault that it comes from a breeder. So the new dog of the Bidens will undoubtedly be a wonderful addition to the family and a special friend to the country. I am pleased that animals are getting attention in any way. The only plus of Bush family politics was the references occasionally to Barney and Mrs. Beasley. The others are all scum.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. I'm sure it'll be a great dog

But I'm saddened that the vice president elect chose to support a PUPPY MILL.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

117. We visited our local shelter for six months with no luck.

The dogs were close to ten years old, many had expensive health conditions and the few younger ones were pitbulls, a breed I
personally would want to raise from a young age or not at all. Spaying and neutering programs have been very successful in
many urban areas, but finding a puppy or young healthy dog has become a huge challenge. If you have the money and time to
invest in expensive healthcare or extensive retraining great, not so great for many others.

[flvegan]

118. Seriously? Posting this from Seattle?

A cursory search for a "baby" dog on Petfinder in one of your zip codes brought up quite a few rescues, and while some were pit bulls :eyes: a great number were not.

[LeftyMom]

120. I know a lot of rescuers in the PNW. There are no lack of dogs needing homes.

And no, they're not all old, sick, or pittie mixes, by any stretch of the imagination. Would you like some phone numbers? I can have you a house full of dogs by the weekend.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. Honestly, I think you didn't look very hard at all

I live in a much smaller area than you, and there are tons of great dogs every weekend at the PetSmart by me. Including TONS of puppies.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

128. Honestly, I did.Our last three dogs, all adopted, had a wide range of issues we

dealt with as they presented themselves. Two were adopted over the age of six and the pitbull mix was a two year old that had been
poorly treated prior to being adopted.

The King county shelter in Bellevue, Wa. has had serous issues in the last couple years, many stories have appeared in the local news regarding
the poor care of the animals and the conditions at the shelter. Most of these issues are a direct result of underfunding. We would go on
the weekends and the place would be packed, a combination of people retrieving their lost pets and families looking for adoptable pets.

I never tried Petfinder, guess I assumed there would be a lot of puppymill breeders there, but we certainly tried are hardest to find a younger dog at the
shelter. We did "rehome" a sweetheart a few months ago and have decided to let our next dog find us. Funny how that works sometimes.

[LeftyMom]

129. Petfinder's shelters and rescues only. No breeders. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

131. Petfinder is all rescue animals for adoption -- no puppy mills

I have two adopted Border Collies with no real issues. Well, Mick is stubborn as fuck, a total "hard" dog, but according to his trainer, that's the line he comes from. They bred "hard" dogs. Beag is just a total sweetie, even though she comes from cattle lines. Growing up we had a shepherd/pit mix that was abused and thrown out. She just had issues with old men in red coats. Most dogs in rescue come from idiot owners, and they're there through NO fault of their own.

There are tons of young dogs/puppies up for adoption by me, and the Seattle area is definitely bigger than where I am.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

135. Thanks, we'll check it out.

[HughMoran]

124. We could only find non-social dogs from Puerto-Rican streets

I agree that he should have attempted to find a dog more in need, but it's not always possible to find the breed or personality you desire from the shelters and rescue societies. We searched all of the locations within 50 miles - the choices were minimal at best (west of Boston).

We did end up adopting a small breed mutt from Puerto Rico and it was extremely anti-social. We made no progress with it at all and it ran away one day - never to be seen again :( Then we got lucky and a stray found it's way to our house. Nobody ever laid claim to the dog, so we ended up with a good mutt after all :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

126. I don't care that he didnt' rescue a dog

I care that he bought a dog from a fucking puppy mill.

There is NO excuse to support them.

[HughMoran]

127. True. We got advice from a very ethical breeder friend or ours

...as we wouldn't buy a dog from a puppy mill if it was the last dog on earth.

I can definitely relate to the annoyance if he did truly buy from a sleazy puppy-mill.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

133. The "breeder" he got his pup from sells 275 puppies a year

That's a mill.

She also operates her business under a couple names, and has a 2nd facility licensed to keep up to 250 dogs. I'm guessing that Biden got his dog from the "front" kennel, and the dogs really come from the other kennel. She even got suspended from the AKC for a year for falsifying registration papers. It's pretty fucking hard to get the AKC to suspend you, because they make most of their money off of puppy mills.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

132. Here is an example of available dogs in a county shelter with a population of

1.2 million. http://www.kingcounty.gov/safety/AnimalServices/adopt/pets.aspx?type=dog

Here is a news story reporting the deplorable conditions at that shelter.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/17509724.html

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

134. What's wrong with getting a dog from there?

Also, there are definitely more places to adopt a dog in your area than just that. You're just being obstinate for some reason.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

136. There's nothing "wrong" with getting a dog from there. That's why we went there

nearly every weekend.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

137. You should get Bella, she's beautiful

If I didn't have two dogs, and live in NJ, I'd get her.

[LisaL]

138. Bella is a pitbull.

The poster clearly stated she doesn't want to adopt an adult pitbull.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

139. I know that Bella is a pit bull

She also looks like a young adult dog to me, and is apparently friendly. Shelters do temperment test their dogs.

I was just saying what dog I would personally adopt, because I think she's pretty, and I don't harbor any irrational prejudices against certain breeds.

Thank you, lizzy, for looking out for EmeraldCity.

[LisaL]

140. With all the stories about pit bulls, I would never adopt one,

even from a puppy. I got bit by a dog as a child and had to have rabies shots.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

141. Yeah, I got attacked a few times by a vicious dog that eventually ripped someone's face open

And had to be put to sleep.

It was a lhasa apso.

Those fuckers should be banned. My friend got scratched by a feral cat once rescuing it, and had to get rabies shots. I think cats are too dangerous to own.

What kind of dog bit you?

BTW, those news stories about "pit bulls" involves all sorts of breeds/mixes of dogs.

[LisaL]

142. The dog that bit me wasn't a pit bull.

Might have not been rabid either, but the owners said they killed it and they didn't produce the body for testing, so I had to have rabies shots. And back then those shots were way more painful than they are now.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

143. So why don't you harbor an irrational hatred towards that breed instead of pit bulls?

Seriously, your post about getting bit and needing rabies shots made no sense in the context of what we were talking about.

I don't hate or have an irrational fear towards lhasa apsos. I wouldn't own one, but that's just because I like bigger dogs.

[LisaL]

144. Cause if it was a pit bull, it might have caused some serious damage.

Gee, at least the dog that bit me wasn't a big one. It was a sick drooling dog of undetermined ancestry.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

145. All big dogs can cause serious damage, in case you didn't know

I've got a 40lb border collie with a grip you couldn't believe. If he felt like it, he could cause SERIOUS damage. I've seen him hang onto stuff with his jaws, and carry 20lb tree limbs in his mouth.

Perhaps you better just not go near any dogs over 20lbs or so. Anything bigger could potentially cause serious damage.

[LisaL]

146. Well, thank you for advice, but I already try not to go near

any large dogs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

147. Pit bulls are not large dogs, nor are border collies

Large is like 75lbs +.

[lukasahero]

198. Satos take a little effort to socialize

Living "west of Boston" myself, I can recommend half a dozen rescue groups for specific breeds and shelters that bring up abandoned puppies from the south as well as from the islands.

I have to admit, I'm unimpressed with your reference to your Sato as "it". However, please don't disparage Satos as anti-social. Ours is a little princess. She's afraid of people for good reason but has responded exceptionally well to training and socialization. And, since every day brings something she has never experienced before or some new level of trust and confidence, she is a source of endless pride and joy.

[Political Heretic]

149. It's weird when it feels like some people would start a revolution in the name of animals

But can barely be moved out of the complacent "center" when it comes to people.

But on the other hand, animals are perhaps sweeter and cuter than people so.... :)

[Runcible Spoon]

152. All of the people sticking up for rescue dogs are hardly what I'd call complacent centrists

They are passionate and active in a variety of causes as well as the health and future of the Democratic Party and the US in general. I know this from reading their posts for YEARS.

[LostinVA]

183. Thank you

Both Haruka and I are complete Lefties (except for Haruka's annoying pro-Death Penalty thing). We are active in many, many "people" causes, as well as "animal" causes. We just realize that we also need to "revolt" for the voiceless.

[LeftyMom]

159. I don't see a lot of complacent centrists on this thread.

That gave me a good laugh though. :rofl:

[LostinVA]

184. That is something I have NEVER been called

Usually I'm being called a Pinko or "dangerously Liberal." I'm a card-carrying member of both the US Socialist Party (the card is red, btw) and the DSA.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

181. Well, my dogs are cuter than you

But I post on a lot of issues around here, which somebody already pointed out to you.

[Political Heretic]

208. That may be true, but animals get disproportionate, passionate, dare I say fanatical attention

With a level of personal investment and intensity that I don't see about most other issues here.

[LostinVA]

249. Then you don't read enough threads

And it isn't being "fanatical," it's being advocates for the voiceless, including our own family members.

[Political Heretic]

260. I read plently and read just fine.

It's my opinion.

[Iggo]

150. And if no one gets those bred dogs, what happens to them?

Do they then need rescuing, and is it then okay to get one?

[LeftyMom]

154. Puppy mill Q&A here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4659931

[Iggo]

157. Thank you.

That's exactly what I was looking for.

:hi:

[LeftyMom]

158. No problem, that's why I wrote it.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't know much about this issue, which helps to perpetuate the problem.

[LostinVA]

186. And many people think it you get AKC papers, they can't be mill dogs

Puppy mills are the AKC's motherlode. The AKC is the biggest enabler in the country.

I admire many Border Collie, Cavalier Spaniel, Portuguese Water dogs, et al breeders who fought -- including suing -- having their breed recognized by the AKC. They know it'll usually ruin them. If anyone on here wants any of the above breeds, look around: many breeders have their own organization and don't register their dogs with the AKC (or allow their members to do so). They breed to better the breed, not line their pockets (ie Border Collies belong to the ABCA and are bred to improve the working lines, Cavalier people are trying to breed out the genetic heart defect by not breeding dogs with the defect, etc.).

EVERYONE should read LeftyMom's link AND Donald McCaig's "Dog Wars." McCaig is a well-known Border Collie guy/sheep farmer in VA, who spearheaded the lawsuit against the AKC to keep BCs from being recognized by the AKC. He's a great guy and a real dog lover.

[MiniMe]

162. And many of them end up in rescues or the shelter

When they can't adopt they out when they are cute puppies. The point is that if you buy from a puppy mill, you encourage them to breed more. One of my dogs is a puppy mill dog, he came from an Amish puppy mill through a rescue I volunteer for. Amish puppy mills are the absolute worst. He was kept in a crate in a dark shed for the first 6 months of his life until he was rescued. He still has trust issues, he is 2 now and a great boy, but he is scared of new people because of how he was kept. Add to that that they overbreed their dogs, a litter every time they come into heat until they don't produce any more. Hardly any contact with people, only other dogs. The reason these mills are in business is because it is profitable, there is no concern for health problems that they may be breeding.

Do a google search on Amish puppy mills to see what conditions these dogs live in. It's absolutely horrible.

[LeftyMom]

167. A friend of mine got his papered, dog show competitor bulldog that way.

She was bred pretty much continuously until she was three or four, then she had some kind of issue delivering a litter and had to be spayed. The breeders dumped her on a rescue since she making them money any more.

[LostinVA]

188. Haruka's mom has a kitty that was a "kitten machine" at a kitten mill in NJ

She was basically too weak to have another litter, so she was thrown away.

She is a nice dainty thing, who is definitely NOT the breed the miller said she was. She had been kept continuously pregnant. She weighs about 10 pounds, and was HALF that when the MIL brought her home. She had alot of fear for a long time. She wouldn't come near me for months, no matter how I coaxed here -- now, she's my buddy.

She came from a "real" breeder whose kittens had CFA papers.

[LostinVA]

187. Amish and Mennonites

[iamjoy]

182. Yes...Market Forces

at first, these animals will wind up in shelters or rescues. As the puppy mills notice their demand slacking, they will continue to decrease supply by not producing as many animals. You will then have fewer animals ending up in shelters or rescues and fewer animals being put down. Maybe the puppy mills will even go out of business and only leave responsible breeders who deal with a few litters a year. I do believe some of them are good and do it for love of the breed (and why not make money at what you love) rather than pure profit. There will always be demand for it, I guess.

Of course, we also need to encourage responsible pet ownership - if you aren't a licensed breeder, you should spay or neuter your pet.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

222. According to Hearts United for Animals, some of the millers

are setting the dogs free in the woods to fend for themselves because demand is already dropping off.

[IsItJustMe]

151. Puppies from puppy mills are dogs too you know.

[LeftyMom]

153. Go read this thread.

I've addressed most of the questions that are popping up from people who are ignorant about the puppy mill problem there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4659931

[LostinVA]

189. Who said they aren't --- we are all making the point they ARE

We don't want any more dogs to suffer.

[Missy Vixen]

163. We have two cats from the same breeder

We went to a breeder because we lost our Maine Coon mix, Merlin, to fibrosarcoma. We wanted to know something about the health of both parents, and we wanted to make sure there were no unnecessary vaccinations.

We are NOT "elitists". To claim we are is asinine. I'd also like to add that our breeder and her husband are liberals that were active in the cat fancy for many years, including lots of volunteer work with purebred rescue.

It's Biden's choice where he got his puppy. It's certainly not our business.

Julie

[LeftyMom]

164. Two dead shelter cats. Check.

:grr:

[Missy Vixen]

165. Considering the fact we've had several shelter cats previously

it's unfortunate that you'd choose to take that tack.

Julie

[LeftyMom]

166. It's unfortunate that people are intentionally breeding more animals when so many die

for no other reason than lack of an adoptive home.

I do cat rescue. I know from unfortunate experience (and equally unfortunate expenses) just how difficult it is to place even the most adoptable, cutest and youngest cats, just because there are so many more than available homes to take them. I certainly take behaviors that compound the problem personally, they make the lives of the animals in my charge (and all the others that aren't so fortunate as to have somebody to look after them) quite a bit more difficult.

[Missy Vixen]

168. Again, we've had multiple shelter cats previously

I might add that we had many more health problems and vet bills with those cats than the two we currently own.

Ultimately, it is our choice.
Julie

[LeftyMom]

169. An irresponsible choice is still an irresponsible choice.

[LisaL]

180. Oh give me a break. If there were no breeders, they would be

no different breeds. Now, it might be well and fine with you, but to many people it's not.

[Missy Vixen]

209. That's funny

Maybe I should upbraid those who've elected themselves the arbiter of what's Good and Correct for some of their life choices, too.

After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, is it not?

Julie

[LostinVA]

190. I have one kitty from a breeder, I don't mind REAL breeders

Biden got his puppy from a puppy mill, which makes it my business.

[Sanctified]

170. Please, this is trivial bullshit.

Elitist is acting like it's morally superior to get a rescued mutt over a purebred, get off your horse and stop nitpicking non issues.

[BlooInBloo]

201. Yup.

[calico1]

191. I agree. The puppy is cute but I hate

breeders. So many dogs get put down each year for no other reason than lack of enough homes for them. People who support breeders and pet shops contribute to this whether intentionally or not.

[leftchick]

194. 'Why'd You Do It, Joe?' on line petition. Definately a puppy mill dog

http://www.nppmwatch.com/BidenActionAlert.html

Why'd You Do It, Joe?


On Thursday, December 11, 2008 information about Vice President-Elect Joe Biden's purchase of a pure bred German Shepherd made the news. The breeder was listed as Linda Brown, owner of JoLindy Kennel, a Pennsylvania facility too small to require a
state kennel license.

But Linda Brown owns more than just JoLindy.... she is also the owner of Wolf Den, a PA state licensed K5 breeding facility.

Given the number of puppies and dogs available in Biden's own home state of Delaware, not to mention the thousands of dogs available in the surrounding states of New Jersey and Pennsylvania, animal advocates are asking: Why'd you do it, Joe? Why didn't you help a dog in need?

Letters (such as the sample below) expressing your concern with the Vice President-Elect's decision to purchase from a known commercial breeder may be sent to:

The Honorable Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
1105 N. Market St.
Suite 2000
Wilmington, DE 19801-1233

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

The Honorable Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
24 NW Front St.
Windsor Building, Suite 101
Milford, DE 19963

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

SAMPLE LETTER

From radio and television ads to newspapers, the internet and even highway billboards, it's hard to miss the message that companion animals are in trouble in our country. There simply are too many animals and not enough homes.

While it's wonderful that you have decided to bring an animal into your life and family, I can't begin to express how disappointed I am that you chose to go to a commercial breeder in Pennsylvania - a state known to harbor countless puppy mills and pets shops that keep puppies and dogs in deplorable conditions - versus a shelter or breed specific rescue.

Was it the photo of the dogs on the JoLindy website that lured you in? Given your political power and the access you and your staff have to untold amounts of information, how did it happen that no one bothered to tell you that the breeder from whom you purchased your puppy also operates a K5 Pennsylvania breeding kennel by the name of Wolf Den. In case you didn't know, the K5 Pennsylvania license allows breeders to house and breed in excess of 250 dogs and is commonly held by facilities referred to as puppy mills.

As an animal advocate, I'd like to think you simply made a mistake but if you could overlook the details surrounding the background of a living creature, such as why the breeder from whom you purchased the puppy feels the need to run TWO kennels of which one is a licensed K5, what other important details will be overlooked by you and your staff in the future?

You had a wonderful opportunity to set an example for constituents across the country that puppies and dogs in shelters and rescues are deserving and in need of good homes... it's a shame this ship sailed without you.

Sincerely,

Your Name
Address
Telephone Number


Please don't miss this opportunity to communicate with our future vice president and to let him know that his purchase of a puppy from a known commercial breeder is not only a concern but a serious disappointment.

[RhodaGrits]

195. There are many good breeders - the shame is that he bought

a puppy from a puppy mill. I wouldn't call them breeders. Breeders are responsible and work hard to choose healthy stock and socialize the puppies well. They almost always lose money on any "sales" of pups after screening for potential congenital diseases and paying for good veterinary care and then marketing the pups to appropriate screened homes. The good breeders make a lifelong commitment to take the pups back at any point in their life and re-home them if something happens. I've had both rescued shelter dogs and purebred dogs from good breeders - it's the puppy mill people that should be put of business along with a lot of large scale factory farming.

[leftchick]

196. I agree! Here is where he should have gone

http://www.gsr-sp.com/



Baron
German Shepherd Rescue of SE Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA



http://www.magsr.org/




and he should adopt an abandoned young adult.

[LostinVA]

199. For those denying this isn't a puppy mill -- kennel has been cited

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/harrisburg_politics/Kennel_where_Biden_bought_puppy_is_cited.html

HARRISBURG, Pa. - The state Department of Agriculture has issued citations to the owner of the Chester County kennel where Vice President-elect Joe Biden recently bought a puppy.
In a kennel inspection report posted online Monday night Linda Brown, owner of Wolf Den kennel, was cited for violating the dog law for failing to provide records for dogs purchased or sold and failing to produce complete rabies vaccination records for her adult dogs. Rabies vaccinations are required for all dogs over three months of age.

Dog wardens also found a strong ammonia smell inside the house where a number of dogs are housed, and broken wires and piping in several outdoor kennel areas. As a result they issued warnings for maintenance and sanitation and will conduct a follow up inspection in the near future, the report said.

<snip>

Brown, of Spring City, who also operates as Jolindy's German Shepherds, holds a commercial kennel license that allows her to keep more than 250 dogs. She had 84 dogs on the property when the inspection took place on Dec. 10.

[suston96]

203. Just watched Jack London's "Call of the Wild" last night....My first dog was a German Shepherd.....

They are noble. hard working animals. Maybe he can get it to pull a sled.

[LostinVA]

204. Not with those hips

[PVnRT]

207. My dog is a Katrina rescuee

But, based on the responses here, she is "troublesome" and "has problems" and should probably just have been left to die, particularly because she isn't a fucking purebred (honestly, if you really care about that, go to hell). Honestly makes me wonder what these posters would do with a mentally handicapped family member, or someone suffering from a degenerative illness.

[OwnedByFerrets]

226. Thank you for your compassion. We have a puppy mill

Bichon named Simone that we saved a yr and a half ago. She is still troublesome and I wouldnt trade her for anything. She has a loving home and will have as long as we live.

[elkston]

211. Puppy purists are getting annoying. LOADS more relevant issues to discuss. (n/t)

[LostinVA]

214. I don't see any puppy "purists" on this thread -- whatever the hell they are

And, I do believe puppy mills is a very real and relevant problem. The voiceless deserve just as much advocacy as anyone else.

[PVnRT]

217. Gee, maybe you could tell us what we're supposed to care about, then

The only "purists" here are sanctimonious assholes like yourself who get pissed because we aren't discussing what you deem to be important.

[dysfunctional press]

216. petfinder.com is a FANTASTIC resource for finding shelter/rescue animals...

you can search by breed, age, sex, geographic location...

we've gotten two kittens and one dog thru the site.

[OwnedByFerrets]

218. I am with you. He could have set a wonderful example, but

chose to perpetuate puppy mills.:spank:

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

224. Here is an example of why we get worked up over puppy

mills

http://web.me.com/cindyleighleigh/Site_2/A_Tzu,_Too.html

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

225. Here's an example of why we get worked up

over puppymills

http://web.me.com/cindyleighleigh/Site_2/A_Tzu,_Too.html

[La Lioness Priyanka]

229. so much sympathy on this thread. makes me sad to think about the thread in which people

expressed disappointment at biden for being against gay marriage and were told to shut up.

funny.

[lukasahero]

230. Don't be fooled

The same people here defending the dogs are your brothers and sisters in arms for gay rights. It's the ones telling us to get over this "trivial" issue who also tell us to shut up about gay rights.

[LostinVA]

250. Exactly!

How's your newest furkid doing?

[lukasahero]

251. She's a test

She's entering "teenage-hood" and testing her boundaries - I have the scrapes and bruises to prove it. ;) But she's a good girl. I can't even express how it feels to watch her grow more confident and overcome her tremendous fear. (She just graduated Beginner Obedience.)

How's your new one doing? Has the whole family adjusted to the change? BTW - I know you have working lines - how do exercise them? Do you two live on a farm? Miss Bella has considerably more energy than my old Beau and we're looking for ways to let her express that energy in less... destructive ways. We're making her some agility obstacles now.

[LostinVA]

252. We would LOVE to have enough acreage to have sheep for them

It's too expensive here. We're hoping we can one day. Mick has his "sheepies" (herding) once a week, and we're taking Beag with him so she can watch. She watches and then Haruka puts her on the sheep for a few minutes. At her age, she's more interested in the trainer's Border Collie than the sheep! He also has geese and duck herding, so if she's too hesitant with the sheep (which she may be because of her personality), we'll train her on those.

They go to the dog park and play outside, but I have to tell that that getting Beaq is the best thing we ever did for MIck: they wrestle and chase half the day, and play Border Collie games (ie herding one another, Mexican Standoff staring for fifteen minutes at a time, etc.). It keeps both of them very stimulated. Also, Haruka's Mom has a GSD puppy almost four months old, who is already bigger than Beag and Mick. She ad our dogs play great together. Sometimes Haruka's mom calls on the weekend and asks Haruka to drop off Beag for a few hours so she can tire out her puppy!

She's doing terrific! She fit in with everyone in the house very well -- she and Mick get along really, really well (except for the occasional normal sibling tiff). She's getting so big, and is starting to show that she will be a dominant bitch and Mick better just get over it! She'll just walk up and take his toys and rawhides now, when HE was the one doing it last month. He stands there like WTF??? She's good with the kitty, too. She's a very sweet, friendly dog -- who is also entering her terrible twos/teenager years.

[lukasahero]

255. You can "rent" sheep?

I guess I knew that there were places you could take herders to do their thing but never really thought about it.

We take Bella to the dog park but I'm no good in the cold (more than just the "I don't like the cold" no good) so we're not getting her out as much now as we would like. I'm thinking of sending her to "day care" a couple days a week just to keep her socialized and exercised through the winter. We're also looking into lure coursing since she's got a lot of sight hound in her but again, that's not until spring.

We have a neighbor who has a Golden the same age but I think they think Bella's too rough (their Golden is older and outweighs her by 40 pounds!) I'm afraid a second dog is not an option. :(

[LostinVA]

256. We take Mick to his trainer's sheep farm close by

However, he does indeed rent sheep to people who have the land for them and want them for their dog, but don't want to buy them! You pay about $300 a year, and pay for their feed and vet care. He puts them in his trailer and brings them to your place.

I know people who swear by Dog Daycare. If you can afford it, go for it!

Yes, Mick and Beag, and Dakota when she's over, roll around the floor wrestling and snarling and nipping. We ignore it, except for when they get too loud when we're watching TV, or when they do it on our bed. It freaks out Haruka's mom, who can't quite get it that they are socializing, playing, and having a great time!

[lukasahero]

258. "roll around the floor wrestling and snarling and nipping"

Yeah, my problem right now is that Bella tries to do that with ME! :rofl:

Doggie Daycare it is I think. Thanks for the input.

[LostinVA]

259. I told Haruka someone may think we abuse the dogs

They both have little pieces of fur missing on their heads from their playing.

Yup, they have to do it with someone -- Mick tried to do it with us. Having three pets' vet bills is pushing it for us, but getting Beag was a great decision -- especially for Mick. We suspect he thinks she's the best toy EVER!

[superduperfarleft]

231. If it makes you feel any better

I think Biden's a colossal dick for both opposing gay marriage and for adopting a puppy from a puppy mill.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

232. it does. thanks.

[LeftyMom]

241. And for drug war bullshit, and for voting for the Iraq war authorization.

But other than that...

[Sex Pistol]

235. I agree with you 100%. And it is very sad.

[madmunchie]

240. Sorry, a German Shepard coming from a reputable breeder is the best choice.

When you are getting a dog that can be aggressive/dangerous, the more you know about his back round the better. Especially if the dog is going to be around children.

I have gotten dogs from both sources shelter and private, if I were to get another Shepard, or even a Doberman, pit bull, rottweiller.... knowing the dog is coming from a reputable breeder trainer and that the line is a good line is a help in ensuring safety.

I think that Biden wasn't acting as an elitist, but someone who is making a responsible intelligent decision. Calling him an elitist because he chose where he wanted to get his dog from, to me is pretty offensive and prejudiced.

[LeftyMom]

244. A puppy mill is not reputable. The breeder was kicked out of the AKC for a year for submitting

repeated falsified papers, so no, buying a dog from her doesn't really mean that anything was known about his line.

Next time read the damned thread first and then post. It's all explained way the hell upthread.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

248. Not to mention the citations for how filthy the place is

[madmunchie]

261. YOU read the what the op wrote, the OP didn't say ANYTHING about

PUPPY MILLS, THE OP SAID B R E E D E R !!! You need to not only get glasses, but to get your foot out of your mouth!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

264. Biden got the dog from a puppy mill

You're saying he got it from a reputable breeder, which is flat out wrong.

You should read what you're responding to.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

246. Biden bought the dog from a fucking puppy mill, that has already been established over an over

I'd take a temperment tested rescue shepherd over a puppy mill bred one any day.

[madmunchie]

262. AGAIN, not talking about PUPPY MILLS, YOU ARE, I am talking about

reputable breeders vs. shelters. AND my POINT is to be calling names because one chooses a breeder over a rescue is WRONG.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

263. You said that Biden got the dog from a reputable breeder and he didn't

He got it from a mill.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

247. Biden bought the dog from a fucking puppy mill, that has already been established over an over

I'd take a temperment tested rescue shepherd over a puppy mill bred one any day.

[Mind_your_head]

243. Biden made a bad choice. It shows he doesn't understand the issues/problem. eom

[kristopher]

245. Try prozac

[hamsterjill]

257. Disappointed, too

Especially after all of the hoopla over the dog the Obamas will get, presumably a shelter dog.

It would have been wise and wonderful if Joe had taken the train to the local shelter and brought home a mutt thereby saving a life.

After all, aren't we ALL really mutts?

[City Lights]

265. I agree. nt