Marines Co-Managing 'Sobriety Checkpoints' in San Bernardino County

[Hissyspit]

Domestic Militarization Comes to San Bernardino County

Posted on 2008 December 14 by bbvm

Marine Corps Air and Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) Provost Marshal (head of a unit of military police) and the local California Highway Patrol office will begin working together 12/12 — and through the holiday season — in a joint effort to reduce accidents and drinking and driving. The combined mutual cooperation between the Marine Corps Military Police and State enforcement officers will begin somewhere along Highway 62. The CHP will set up DUI roadblocks with the presence of Military Police. A violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Gary Daigneault discussed the ramifications of this joint effort today on his 107.7 F.M. Talk Back show. Mr. Daigneault and his callers seemed to be very concerned. On its face, one may think this is a good idea. But it’s not. I agree with Mr. Daigneault and his callers. Most of which seemed to think this is a very bad idea. Mr. Daigneault contacted a Constitutional Law expert, and the attorney informed him this is absolutely unconstitutional. It’s NOT permitted under the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, 8 U.S.C. § 1385. It’s my understanding that the Constitutional Law expert said CHP officers could be arrested out there working with the Military Police because it’s a “felony.”
Democracy depends upon abiding by the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, I challenge anyone to go out there and put a citizens arrest of the CHP officers, then call 9-1-1 and have a sheriff come out and take charge of your prisoner. Just kidding, of course, but a very brazen citizen legally could attempt to such a thing. But don’t even think about it.

Many of his callers vocalized that this joint effort or mutual cooperation between the military and the CHP is going to be very intimidating. They (as I) are very concerned the CHP is going through with this action. It’s not really clear what the specific role of the Military Police will be… To assist; to observe; to train; to make a strong military presence; to take charge of military offenders detained by the CHP? Nonetheless, whatever, it’s unconstitutional; it’s a felony. I contacted the Morongo CHP office.* The dispatcher said the program will be in effect tonight. When I asked here were it was going to be, she said call back tonight after 7:00 P.M. But I politely protested, these DUI check stops are public. She said I have to speak with CHP Public Affairs officer after seven.* A call to the CHP Public Affairs Officer’s number* after seven got a recorded message to call from 9-5 during business hours. Query: why wasn’t I told that?

By the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, 20 Stat. 152, 18 U.S.C. § 1385, it was provided that “it shall NOT (emphasis added) be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress… .” The effect of this prohibition, however, was largely nullified by a ruling of the Attorney General “that by Revised Statutes 5298 and 5300 <10 U.S.C. §§ 332, 334> the military forces, under the direction of the President, could be used to assist a marshal. 16 Ops. Atty. Gen. 162.” B. RICH, THE PRESIDENTS AND CIVIL DISORDER 196 n.21 (1941).

MORE

Via Mark Crispin Miller

[DS1]

1. Terrible idea

/former jarhead

[babylonsister]

2. Rec'd. Really bad precedent. Illegal should be enough. nt

[intheflow]

3. Link?

I'm k&r'ing b/c I know you're a reliable source and I have no doubt this is true, but you need to add the link before you get flamed, my friend. :hi:

[charlie]

9. It's not looking good

This is the original source, Big Bear Observation Post:

http://bbvm.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/domestic-militarization-comes-to-san-bernardino-county/

[intheflow]

10. Thanks for the link, Charlie. n/t

[charlie]

14. The radio show host

says he has a CHP fax that bolsters his claim:



which was later amended and reissued:



I'd wait on this story before deciding its veracity. We'll know soon enough anyway.

[indepat]

94. That no one in this administration gives a flying fuck about the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

or anything other than implementation of their extreme RW corporatist PNAC agenda could be convincingly argued. :P

[dixiegrrrrl]

24. Same thing was done in Mobile Al and announced casually in press.

National Guard and Highway Patrol on I-10, Thanksgiving.
Very common in Al. for local cops to set up checkpoints, sometimes in neghborhood streets, sometimes county roads, less common on freeways, but now I am hearing reports of many freeway
(interstate) checkpoints, esp. SW states.

Anyone else notice this in your area?

[unapatriciated]

41. labor day weekend on highway 92 in georgia...

I was on my way home from work at around 10:30 pm. Every car was stopped westbound on highway 92. Flashing lights stated you needed to have your drivers license ready for inspection. The officer took my license and went to the back of my vehicle and ran it did a walk around check of my car returned and shined a flashlight to do a quick check of interior of my vehicle. They were many cars pulled off the road where they were doing full searches.
When I asked why we were being stopped I got no response except thank you and have a good evening. It was very intimidating.

[L0oniX]

92. I think they should also be used as hall monitors at our schools.

:sarcasm:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. They're shoveling on as fast as they can.

Bury that damn Constitution.

Another WTF moment in U.S. history.

[bjobotts]

99. First it will be breathalyzers...later it will be "Papers please".

[bjobotts]

100. They want us to get used to a military presence.Martial law is next.

[bjobotts]

101. A militarized police presence.Full automatic weapons etc.....WHY...

[bjobotts]

102. Because of an economic collapse and great depression causing starvation and homelessness

[bjobotts]

103. Reganomics have come home to roost.Very wealthy vs the rest of us.

[bjobotts]

104. Little by little then suddenly we look around and see a police state.

[bjobotts]

105. Unconstitutional and illegal but the "law" is doing it anyway?4 our protection? ha

[bjobotts]

106. COL. SMEDLEY BUTLER----REPORT

[snot]

5. Where's the ACLU? (And pls consider donating, everyone.)

Somebody needs to file for a restraining order.

[hay rick]

6. Executive privilege.

So an appointed Attorney General can nullify an Act of Congress. Rhetorical question: why do we even bother to elect members of Congress? We can just have ten or so appointed people appoint a President and be done with all the political/democracy stuff.

[htuttle]

7. "Ihre Papiere, bitte"

It sounds better in the original German...

[Soylent Brice]

61. holy crap, i was thinking the same thing.

:scared:

[williesgirl]

8. This is fucking illegal and must be stopped before it spreads. rec'd

[tblue37]

52. It already has spread, according to several posts above yours. nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

11. I'll call Rep. Capps office tomorrow to see what they know

or if they have heard of this. Its not in her district but its close.

This, if true, is a constitutional problem which needs to be addressed immediately.

This is a sneaky way of breaking the law by Bush.

[rhett o rick]

88. There is nothing sneaky about this. Where's my shoes? nm

[jody]

12. I expect many more such incidents to condition We the People to accept martial law. n/t

[Mari333]

13. oooo they can NOT get away with this n/t

[opihimoimoi]

15. Get Arnolllld to stop this shit....he is still the GOV

[rhett o rick]

89. Sorry, dictator trumps mere governor. nm

[coalition_unwilling]

16. DUI checkpoints are themselves of highly

questionable constitutionality, based as they are on a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment's prohibition on warrantless searches and seizures WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE.

So what's a little violation of posse comitatus going to hurt when the 4th Amendment has been shredded?

Come to think of it, California's so-called "Three Strikes Law" makes a mockery of the 5th Amendment's prohibition against double jeopardy so, really, what's a little violation of posse comitatus by comparison?

[dothemath]

117. and the pendulum will swing ........................

For the poor, dumb schmuck who has one too many in an attempt to drown the misery inexorably coming down on him and his family, the pendulum swings toward the end labeled Disaster. Be damned careful at any so-called routine stop. Until you have been given permission, the constitution notwithstanding, to proceed on your way, you are OWNED by 'the law'. Indeed, I have heard more than one law enforcement person say "I am the law". And now, in case you lacked understanding before, law enforcement has changed the paradigm with a quantum leap upward. A contingent of military personnel with the capability of doing God knows what to you, your family and maybe the town you live in, lurks with a threat that should chill your blood.

Picture this. A husband and father, accompanied by his family, on a public road, finds himself in the equivalent of ... hell, pick one - 1930s Germany, Russia for nearly 100 years now, Zimbabwe - NOT America. Until the jack-booted thugs give their permission to proceed, he, and his family, rank right up there with hundreds of people kidnapped, sent to Gitmo, kept for years in isolation, many tortured, never charged with a crime, then released without ever being told why they were kidnapped in the first place.

Having a sense of humor may not be able to stop blood flow, but it still does have some value. Which brings me to politicians. At one point in Bill Maher's move, Religulous, Maher is interviewing a senator regarding whether politicians are smart. The senator's response is "being a senator does not require an IQ test". I may not have the details exactly right, but close enough. One example and then I will quit. If I have heard it once, I have heard it hundreds, maybe thousands of times. Politicians talk about 'representing their constituents'. Bullshit. Politicians represent their agenda. When an overwhelming majority of US citizens said 'no bailout', in their inimitable way, politicians voted their interest - which is the corporate interest. So much for representing the constituents. How about representing the source of re-election funds and other riches not available to hoi polloi. That could be getting ready to change, my fellow prisoners. Obama raised about 3/4 of a billion dollars from guess who - people. Ten, twenty, thirty bucks at a time. Woohoo! Talk about a new paradigm.

[Crabby Appleton]

17. The Marines are not part of the Army or Air Force

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 67 > § 1385 § 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

[babylonsister]

18. Even sneakier. nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. Thanks....Though I can't remember a historic precedent for the Marines used

with police in US history or California history. I'm glad you included that title and will have
to research it more before I call my Rep tomorrow, I'm sure the feds are trying
to make a precedent with this.

[Fumesucker]

42. That must be a rewrite of Posse Comitatus..

There weren't even airplanes, let alone an airforce, when Posse Comitatus was originally written.

[pinqy]

48. There is a DoD regulation

That also forbids the USMC and USN from acting as posse comitatus. However, it's not clear that these checkpoints are a violation of posse comitatus unless it can be shown that the MPs are acting against civilians.

[GP6971]

19. Sorry to say, but nothing illegal and

this has been going on for years. We had joint patrols when I was stationed in NYC back in the 70's and early 80's. It's quite common where there is a significant military population in the area or military personnel transit a high profile area.

It actually worked out well...it fostered a greater cooperation between the locals and the MPs. We took care (or handled I should say) of the military and relieved the civilian courts.

[anigbrowl]

29. Shhh, you'll rattle the tinfoil hats with your common sense.

Just because San Bernadino is home to some large military bases and people in forces are still subject to military law while off-base shouldn't interrupt a good uninformed paranoia session.

[Bill McBlueState]

30. there's no conspiracy theory here

Members of the military are performing police duties in apparent violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Just a simple observation; no accusation of conspiracy.

[anigbrowl]

36. I'll worry about it after the arrest a civilian.

Which I don't believe is going to happen.

[endarkenment]

82. That reminds me

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Good luck with that complacency of yours.

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. Civilians aren't subject to military law dumbass

and the combine use of civilian and military police is illegal

[anigbrowl]

35. Nobody sugested they were.

Nice line in insults you have going, though.

[sorval]

66. oh piss off

its a valid point to discuss, if you dont want to talk about it, and want to ridicule the people who do, then maybe you should pick somewhere else to troll. seriously, piss off.

[Richard Steele]

32. You're so wrong, you'de need to stand on a chair with binoculars to see "right" from there.

It's clearly, blatantly, directly ILLEGAL...and the fact
that it may or may not have happened before doesn't change that.

I feel that I should add: I don't believe your little story.
Back it up with some LINKS, please won't you?

[northofdenali]

40. If it weren't for our local military (Army and Air Force)

Fairbanks would NOT have recovered from the major 1967 flood. Nor would many of us be alive after an unprecedented winter storm in September of 1989 (the Year of the Exxon Valdez) had our military not been out in force.

But we're a small town with a known history of cooperation with our military residents at Ft. Wainwright and Eielson Air Force Base.

However, the MP's and AP's stay on their respective bases unless specifically requested to assist the Borough (County), which hasn't happened since Pipeline days.

Bad precedent here - unconstitutional and illegal. I don't blame the Marine Corps but do look at Guv Ahnold and wonder why this is being allowed.

[sorval]

69. ah another fairbanksan

good point, the military can be useful in emergencies, as national guard. But traffic checkpoints are a different sort of law enforcement.

[northofdenali]

81. Agreed, 150%!

If you've been up here any length of time, you know what I mean - when I was going to Lathrop in the late 60's, early 70's, during Viet Nam, all we had at Ft. Wainwright were the true fuckups. Some of the most fun Army dudes I've ever known!!

[acmavm]

44. NO shit for brains, violations of the law and the Constitution NEVER work

out 'well' for the citizens of this country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Having violated the law 30 years ago does not make it right to do so today.

The MPs are out of their jurisdiction. They cannot stop cars, ask for ID, search cars. All they can legally do is stand on the sidelines and wait for CHP to turn military personnel over to them. If they are doing anything more than that, except possibly directing traffic, they are in violation of Posse Comitatus.

[spanone]

21. this is part of the bu$h* legacy that will haunt us for generations

[TexasObserver]

22. This unconstitutional use of military in America must be stopped.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. This. n/t

[bluesmail]

25. and I thought * put an end to Posse Commitatus. Never mind.

[EFerrari]

38. I did, too. The Patriot Act? n/t

[20score]

26. That used to be a bragging right of being an American. No soldiers on the street.

I'm making a call tomorrow. It can't hurt.
K&R

[bertman]

27. Tiny steps that go unrecognized until it's too late. A few Marines helping the cops here and

there, then they start showing up at county fairs and sporting events. Next thing you know they're doing SWAT duty and making arrests for civil and criminal actions.

The slippery slope gets slipperier.

President-elect Obama are you listening. We're asking for your help here. Hello.

[Raksha]

28. This is absolutely frightening!!!

I live in San Bernardino County...in the city of San Bernardino, as a matter of fact. I'm not all that far away from the Morongo Basin.

Re Many of his callers vocalized that this joint effort or mutual cooperation between the military and the CHP is going to be very intimidating.

I suspect that indimidation of the citizens is the WHOLE point of it. They know it's unconstitutional. They know we know it's unconstutional. It sounds as though they are making a kind of test case out of it--after all, the CHP hardly needs help from the Marines to arrest drunk drivers!

The most terrifying thing I can imagine is if the intimidation is successful, and if they actually pull it off without a major protest.

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. Google Map highway 62 and the distance from the base

I think they are out of their jurisdiction

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Twentynine%20Palms%2C%20California%20highway%2062%20military%20base&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

[dysfunctional press]

34. who's going to volunteer to make the citizen's arrests...?

hands..?

[newtothegame]

37. Bad idea on their part...

But fighting anti-drunk-driving efforts and heaping praise on foreigners who throw objects at the US President shouldn't be DU priorities...gives the Freeptards way too much ammunition.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. Fighting drunk driving laws?!?!?

Try defending the United States Constitution. You don't seem to get it at all. And this pretense of being worried what others will think, while calling those others rude names, seems a tad out of joint, old mole. The Constitution should always be priority number one. Learn that fact.

[MindPilot]

65. It's also a "driver's license check"

It's "papers, please?" under the guise of "keeping us safe".

Those who would trade safety for security and so on...

[Rebubula]

76. As Someone...

Who has lost close friends to drunk drivers...I have no problem with sobriety checkpoints. Driving is a privilege and NOT a right.

Now...what I do have a problem with (assuming the OP is not hyperventilating over a possibility) the military handling such cases. As another poster mentioned - in this country we do not have our Military roaming the streets.

In this case, I do not see how a sobriety checkpoint is trading security - I would say it improves it by getting assholes who do not care if they kill themselves or others (after 30+ years of MADD ads and 100,000 deaths due to drunk driving, it should be an Attempted Murder charge for DD - at the very least a felony FIRST TIME with mandatory jail time) off the roads.

Fuck drunk drivers and fuck their apologists.

[MindPilot]

77. Are you suggesting I am a "drunk driver apologist"?

Sobeiety checkpoints have been shown time and again to be completely ineffective at stopping drunk drivers. As another poster pointed out, cops at a checkpoint will unconstitutionally detain and search thousands of inncoent people to find one or drivers a little over the legal limit. (Which is in fact not an accurate indicator of imparement at those low levels.)

The drunks who kill people are usally on their third or forth DUI and testing at two or three times the limit. The simple fact our current laws don't work is because it's not about getting drunks off the road; it's about getting and keeping them "in the system". It's all about the cash.

[olegramps]

110. Enforcement of MDD agenda

The vast majority of drivers stopped for DWI or DUI are stopped because of some minor infraction. Such as having a light out. The punishment goes far beyond the crime of being slightly over the limit. In fact breath analyzers can provide a higher reading than a blood alcohol test since they can be manipulated by the tester. The tester can have the person blown in an intimidate them to blow harder which will give a higher reading. A person should never take a breath alcohol test if they have the choice to have a blood alcohol test which is far more accurate. Not all states even allow breath tests since they can be inaccurate.

[DonEBrook]

113. So are you okay with cops (and marines) sneaking into your house to "look around"

just in case you might have done something illegal?
:eyes: :puke:

[FiveGoodMen]

118. You make me so fucking glad that there's an ignore list!

[dmallind]

119. And fuck you for using made up numbers

Ever looked at those "drunk driving" statistics? Do you know where they come from - a "HBD" checkbox on a FARS report which is only even the result of a test less than 50% of the time and where officers are known to check it automatically for any accident past 11pm, and which even when responsibly checked can include any such "evidence" as an empty bottle of pills or recycling including booze bottles in the car? Did you know the "D" in HBD" also stands for drugs - including prescription drugs? Did you know that a car driven by a lifetime teetotaler climbing a kerb and striking a pedestrian walking home from the bar is a "drunk driving death" in these statitsics? Or that they include any trace of alcohol not just over .08? An alcohol amount that can be from a day previously or even a squirt of Chloraseptic? Ever noticed that over two thirds of "drunk driving" deaths are only of the "drunk driver" anyway - a punishment even neo-prohibitionists like you don't suggest?

But even if in an insane world you assumed that all "drunk driving" deaths are the fault of people who are actually driving and actually drunk and with all innocent victims, taking MADDs own estimate of the number of drivers who drive impaired on a given day means that a person could drive drunk every night for over 1000 years without killing someone - the risk is that low, again even with the silly inflated numbers. The risk of being seen by a health provider and dying because of their mistake is greater than that of being killed by a drunk driver. I assume you are intellectually honest enough then to seek felony convictions and jail time for doctors who make any error even if no-one is hurt?

Fuck neo-prohibitionist hand wringers and their apologists.

[sasquuatch55]

120. Yea, and fuck the law, the constitution....

....and keep alcohol legal:sarcasm:; as it is a great revenue source for law enforcement and government! I'm not condoning drunk driving or alcohol, and I have no problem with sobriety checkpoints. This is just another form of corruption.

[Downtown Hound]

70. The freeptards are way too busy trying to prove

that Obama is really a clone of Geghis Khan who is in fact an alien from the planet Vulcan and has come to enslave the human race in the name of homosexual Islamic terrorism or whatever the hell else their latest conspiracy theory is. They have absolutely no legs to stand on if they're looking for ammunition against us. They have devolved into new depths of paranoia and delusion it has shocked even me.

This topic is actually a serious issue. At the RNC there were regular divisions of the U.S. Army (not National Guard, but regular Army) assisting the police in their brutal crackdown on protesters. Every day the line gets blurred more and more between military and police. And that is NOT a good sign for democracy. This needs to be talked about and brought out into the open more.

This has nothing to do with fighting drunk-driving efforts. This has everything to do with protecting America from what could easily and in fact already has become serious constitutional abuses.

[Peace Patriot]

39. San Bernardino County just went Democratic (in voter reg) for the first time in

about 30 years! The corrupt Puke/fascist establishment that has been running things is probably worried about all these 'commies' running around taking over the county and the nation! And you can bet that they will be profiling Hispanics and blacks in particular, to get more Democratic voters in jail and off the voting rolls.

I was just cheering the successful Democratic voter registration effort there the other day. I should have known that counter-measures would be taken. Very entrenched, very corrupt, very far rightwing cabal running San Bernardino. One of the worst corpo vote counting systems and county registrars in the state. The SB county registrar SUED our new, reformist CA Sec of State (Debra Bowen) to try to prevent the mildest of reforms (and lost in court, thankfully). The people of SB need to clean house--and they need a big broom. And they need to start with getting rid of the current county registrar. I'm sure that the Democrats finally achieving a majority is due to Bowen's strong oversight, and not to anything SB county or its registrar did to encourage voting. They are slimy crooks.

[antimatter98]

43. Another pitchfork moment. Gates has allowed this---Obama's SecDef.

We're the frog in a pot with the heat being turned up ever higher, in small
increments.

In this case, the 'heat' is more and more militarization of our lives, domestic
spying unabated, and a financial lockdown/crisis and employment crisis.

Will we jump out of the pot before it is too late?

I doubt it because we: 'just cannot believe it, and don't want to over react.'

Welcome to Freedom.

[Mugweed]

45. Welcome to Amerika

If you think having Democrats in power is suddenly going to reverse this trend, don't hold your breath.

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Thanks For Your Concern

I think you're wrong. We shall see.
GAC

[Mugweed]

86. Not "concern"

But thanks for playing "concern troll" labeler.

I've watched the slow militarization of law enforcement in the USA since Reagan's first term (not necesaryly the use of armed forces in law enforcement, as a normal course of action). I never saw any backslide or huge turnaround during the Clinton years. I'm just saying get used to it, because I really don't think the death of Possee Comitatus is one of the Bush legalizations that Obama is going to concentrate on reversing.

On edit - here is a link to instances of both Reagan AND Clinton deciding Possee Comitatus temporarily null and void for "emergencies". http://science.howstuffworks.com/delta-force4.htm

Get used to it. There's always some lame excuse to go with it.

[ProfessorGAC]

109. I Labeled Nobody

And i labeled nothing. I simply disagree with you. Are you above having mere humans not agree with you?
GAC

[madrchsod]

47. it`s legal....the posse comitatus act was signed away by bush...

another "law" that obama will have to restore

[pinqy]

51. Already done

The revision to the http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sup_01_10_10_A_20_I_30_15.html">Insurrection Act that was changed in 2007, which expanded the President's ability to use Federal troops, was repealed in 2008.

[SteveM]

116. Thanks. We keep up with this in the "Gungeon." (nt)

[pinqy]

49. It is NOT unconstitutional!

Anyone saying so is displaying their ignorance. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution or its ammendments that forbid using the military for police work. The Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878 as part of the deal where Rutherford B. Hayes bought the election by promising the electors from former Confederate states to end Reconstruction including the removal of Federal troops. The main purpose of the Posse Comitatus Act was to prevent the Federal goverment from protecting the rights of former slaves. The same deal allowed Jim Crow laws.

I find it odd for liberals and progressives to defend a law whose purpose was to allow segregation and oppression of African-Americans.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinqy]

73. What part of "Constitution" do you not understand?

Show me any restrictions in the CONSTITUTION. Or are you unfamiliar with that particular document. The Posse Comitatus Act is an act of Congress, not part of the Constitution.

See, "Unconstitutional" means "against the Constitution." There is nothing in the Constitution against using military for police work, and there were no laws at all against it until Hayes bargained with the ex-Confederates to buy the Presidency.

And note, I didn't express my opinion of this, if it is happening, because I've yet to see any mainstream reporting of what is actually occurring.

[jhrobbins]

84. My great, great uncle who was a speaker of the House here in Texas

was also a friend and college roommate of Rutherford B Hayes. I used to tell this because I thought it was a big deal until I found out what kind of prez old Rutherford really was. Now I only tell when this sort of post comes up.

[jbane]

53. Marines helping the community by keeping drunks off the roads.

What's the problem? Are they shooting the suspects? If I lived in your community I would be glad they're out there.

[nichomachus]

58. There's no evidence that these roadblocks "keep drunks off the road"

That's just bullshit. We had a roadblock here the other night. They wasted a huge number of person-hours, inconvenienced a lot of drivers, stopped over 1,100 cars and nailed one guy for suspicion of DUI.

I can't believe there was only one drunk on the road that night. What the cops need to do is get off their asses and enforce moving violations. Then, they'll find the drunks.

The other day I was at a major intersection. The light changed. After it was green for a little while, a guy came from the cross street and blew through the red light at about 60 mph. He ran right in front of a cop who totally ignored him.

The roadblocks are just ways for the cops to look like they're doing something.

[MindPilot]

79. Yeah but like giving up your shaving cream at the airport, it feels good

Of course if you oppose sobriety checkpoints--as another poster pointed out to me upthread--that probably means you are a "drunk driver apologist". :shrug:

[acmavm]

64. That's just ignorance talking. The military is to be used to guard

our country and defend our country against foreign enemies. The end.

We have a National Guard as well. Wonder why they're not using them? Afraid they aren't as brain-dead gung ho as the Marines?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hissyspit]

85. The oath is not an act of Congress, nor is it part of the Constitution.

And guarding against enemies foreign and 'domestic' does not automatically mean police action within the United States, particularly in violation of an act of Congress.

[pinqy]

93. Please read what I was replying to..

...so you'll understand context. Your post has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

And why do people keep failing to notice that there is no act of Congress forbidding using Marines as law enforcement? The Posse Comitatus Act ONLY applies to the Army and Air Force. Dept of Defense regulations (but NOT any act of Congress) apply the same restrictions to the USN and USMC.

But in any case there's no evidence that these Marines are being used in any way that would violate Posse Comitatus. If they're there only to deal with military personel, then there's no Posse Comitatus involved.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinqy]

111. Source?

Please cite your source that the intention is to intimidate the American people rather than regulate military personel. And I was only talking about the idiotic claim that the US military is ONLY to be used against foreign threats. Did they not cover the Civil War in your school? Or perhaps you simply support the right of states to oppress their minorities, which is the only reason the Posse Comitatus Act was passed: so that the Southern States could enact segregation and keep down the uppity ex-slaves.

[acmavm]

115. So, what's your rank?

[endarkenment]

83. yeah it is just a minor legal technicality.

:wtf:

[Selatius]

90. The Constitution never provided provisions to allow the military policing powers over civilians.

The police department was established for that role. The Marines were established for a different reason.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

95. I think we should set up checkpoints at 30 mile intervals

just for you. Sounds like you would be all for it.

:eyes:

[Piewhacket]

54. did this actually happen? I think it plainly illegal.

its now 12/16, whats up on this?

[DeanDem10]

55. Didn't Congress let the administration

Didn't Congress let the administration get away with suspending posse comitatus? I thought that it had. If not, certainly, BUSHCO suspended it. And the militarization of our domestic police was just what opponents were concerned about.

[happylib]

56. now you can be tasered by jarheads and cops to death

Just great!!! Now you can get randomly tasered by the thugs for noncompliance, diabetic seizure, asking a question or anything they make up on creative writing reports. Excited delirium coming to street corner near you.

It truly is us against them were all the enemy to those guys.

Cops and military are the dumbest humans on the planet. Are the cops so dumb they can't do illegal checkpoints by themself anymore? They are tards to need help now? I've seen these checkpoints. Its 50 cops with 2 of them doing the checkpoint, and the other 48 standing on the side of the road telling stories to each other about how macho they are and who they beat the piss out of and tasered and laughing about it all.

[bluedawg12]

57. Caesar crossing the Rubicon was a big deal then and today.

Who ever controls the military has a lot of power and if that power is used internally against one's own citizens that's fascism and a dictatorship.

That seems to be the underlying concern and the reason we don't mobilize Federal troops for domestic matters.

This is not about being anti-drunk driving laws. geesh.

[ensho]

59. NO NO NO NO

the military and local police should not work together unless it is national emergency like Katrina, and the national guard is overwhelmed and needs help from the military.

[LostinVA]

60. Theya re ONLY allowed to do taht on military bases -- that's it

Posse Comitatus Act forbids it -- and rightly so.

[Golden Raisin]

62. Swell. Is Blackwater "helping out" next?

[EnviroBat]

112. God I hope not.

If you didn't stop "quick enough" for one of those retards, they would open fire killing you and your entire family. I personally wouldn't stop for any Blackwater asshole. I will not recognize them as an authority, but as criminals. I will consider them a threat to my life and liberty, and I will defend myself.

Blackwater should vanish for good.

[Golden Raisin]

121. I'm sincerely hoping that among

the long list of desperately important priority items on Obama's "Fix-It" list is dealing with Blackwater. Under Bush/Cheney we got too accustomed/acclimated without much protest to having a private army of stormtroopers/mercenaries/Prussians hired for pay (hired on our tax payer dollars!). I would like to know exactly what the Joint Chiefs have to say about this second "unofficial" armed forces. Then again, perhaps I should be careful what I wish for.

[Joey Liberal]

63. Imagine being stopped by the Marines?

This is crazy.

[truedelphi]

68. Circa January 2003, the CIA had on its website that one of its goals

Was to figure out how to get American Armed Forces to turn on us civilians.

Well after five years of kicking in doors in Iraq, and shooting at anything that moves, the Marine vets and Army vets are too PTSD'ed to figure out that there is a Constitution. And if ordered to turn on us, I bet many of them will.

[OwnedByFerrets]

71. This is BULLSHIT!!!!!

[Joanne98]

75. NO NO NO!

[Danger Mouse]

78. Hmmm. Looks bad.

Sounds like a bad idea.
Lot of knee-jerk reactions in this thread, though.

[Solly Mack]

80. Not good. Not smart. Not helpful...at all.

Bad idea...very, very bad idea. Dangerous.

[rhett o rick]

87. Posse Comitatus Act, what? Do you think we live in a democracy? If you do, prove it to me. nm

[Bigmack]

91. Never mind Posse Comitatus...

in the Corps, we used to say "The two most dangerous things in the Corps are... a 2nd Lt ("Butter Bar") with a map, and a PFC with a duty belt (with pistol).

Everybody at those checkpoints better understand the rules of engagement, and everybody better hope nobody has flashbacks to checkpoints in Iraq.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

96. I live in Yucca Valley, which is where this is happening

The Marine base is about 20 miles from here (I can see it from my house -- literally) so the Marines often come to town to shop at the Wal-Mart, etc. There's obviously a lot of support for and experience with the military, so most people won't find anything wrong with their presence at DUI checkpoints.

After all, they're just trying to keep us safe, aren't they?

What's ironic is that as an individual in the military (I was one) you take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Somehow the Bush administration has made people believe that the government has the power, not the people, and its purpose is to protect the "Homeland" and not the rule of law.

I don't know if we will ever recover the rights we've lost under this illegal regime. Outside the blog sphere I don't hear a lot of discussion about it. Hell, even our so called "leaders" in the Democratic Party say that those who keep bringing up the need to restore lost or diminished Constitutional rights are part of the "far left" or "fringe" and not part of Real America (they've been taking Sarah Palin pills or something).

Obama taught Constitutional law; hopefully he will make restoring its power a prime goal of his administration.

[MrScorpio]

97. If the jarheads were standing to the side and taking custody of drunk GIs,

While the local law enforcement did all the contact work and initial interaction, identification, and questioning of drivers, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

But I'm afraid that this is not the case.

It's unconstitutional and belies police state tactics.

[The_Casual_Observer]

98. What's next?

Make no mistake, these are military checkpoints set up on a public highway. They can kill you, no questions asked.

[illuminaughty]

107. Boil the frog slowly and serve us up some tasty

martial law. It IS happening people! Illegal.

[sarcasmo]

114. Martial Law!

[pinqy]

122. FINALLY an unbiased report

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=9534627&nav=9qrx">Joint CHP-Marine Corps Checkpoint Raises Suspicions

Marine Lt. Thomas Beck tells News Channel 3 the Military Police were not arresting people. They were just watching the checkpoint to see how they should do it on base.

"We were not actively participating in enforcing any laws. We were there to observe and observe only, " said Lt. Beck.

The California Highway Patrol says they invited the Marines to tag along.

"We had the DUI checkpoint and invited the Marine Corps in a show of good relations between our two departments," said CHP Officer Rob McLoud.

So quit the paranoia, there's nothing illegal here.