Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Alright, please smack down this Reich Wing bullshit

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 09:51 PM
Original message
Alright, please smack down this Reich Wing bullshit
Edited on Mon Dec-15-08 10:10 PM by phostur
if you get a chance:
From Gregory Knox,
In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me.

You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream".

The dream is over!

The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities and that still the masses will line up to buy our products

Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states:
There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not.
You're right, it's not JUST management. How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week

How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?

How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:
Over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.

What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?

Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?

The K car vs. the Accord?

The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?

Do I need to go on?

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades.

Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and something else would happen where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up that is how a free market system works, it does work if we would let it work.

But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work that we need the government to step in and "save us" save us, hell we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a clue that this is what's really happening but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams, yeah THAT'S important.

Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?...

How can that be???

Let's see.

Fuel efficient

Listening to customers

Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago

Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"

Efficient front and back offices

Non union environment

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know in their hearts

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way). I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through.

Radical concept, huh!

Am I there for them in the wings? Of course, but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.

Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people it's coming whether we like it or not

The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away". I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied "we might not do it in a year or in four". Where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office?

Stop trying to put off the inevitable.

That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000

People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits

That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home

Let the market correct itself people, it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world and probably turns back to God.

Sorry don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news"


Gregory J Knox
President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. "most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers""
My answer to that - fuck you Mr Knox.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ogneopasno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ford is still making the Pinto? I can buy a 2008 K Car? No shit?
Here's a pint of STFU, on the house.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Paragraphs would help me critique it.
Otherwise not worth my time
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Roger that. I'll fix it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Mr Knox is un-American
and should read his 20th century history before prescribing what is, in effect, a free-market shock to be administered to the labor and remainder of the middle class of the US.

The symptoms are not what he says, they are exactly the opposite, therefore the results will not be what he expects, but the opposite.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. That is exactly what these free-market, globalist Repugs don't get
in economic terms, they are treasonous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. I love how he lists "fuel efficent" "responsive front and back offices" and "non union enviornment"
together, like being built by underpaid labor is a feature that buyers seek out in a car. :eyes:

Also, whoever taught that man's freshman composition class should be summarily executed, because that is some seriously unstructured drivel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Let's just surrender the the Japanese companies
What ever happened to the concept of actually fixing our problems instead of just giving up hope. Have we become that cynical?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Gregory J Pro Unemployment Herbert Hoover Lustin' Knox, STFU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. We have let the market take it's course under your dreamboy, Chimpy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks guys. I plaigiarized a bit, but here's my e-mail back
reply all of course:
Mr.Knox makes some good points, but I question his patriotism and love of his fellow countrymen when he makes statements like "our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" ". I'm sorry, but when we're spending $10 billion a month in Iraq, is it so much to ask to bail out an AMERICAN COMPANY! Have we devolved that low, to the point where it's a sin to ask for a decent wage in this country? I guess in Mr.Knox's world, we just should surrender to the Japanese and call it a day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Knox Machinery, Inc. sells Japanese tooling items
They don't make anything they are like an Industrial K-Mart


http://www.knoxmachinery.com/products.html

He might have his own agenda, so his business is the first place to look
then the next thing to see is how he treats his workers.

Thanks for the paragraphs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Holy shit, that is hilarious! I'm sending that forward. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. This is his business model but he's a salesman for foreign companies.
Edited on Mon Dec-15-08 10:46 PM by Ichingcarpenter

He put this in letter and it matches what he does;



"Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago

Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"

Efficient front and back offices

Non union environment "



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Figures. If he actually made stuff, Knox wouldn't be spouting this crap.
Greg, like the repukes, want the US to be a purely service economy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. They sell Bridgeport milling machines. No American companies even make
CNC machinery any more. Maybe he should switch to televisions and computers. Oh, wait, nobody in America makes those either. I guess pore ole Mr. Knox will just have to shut down the fucking company and lay off his employees to please the people here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. Uh Greg! The competition also SUBSIDIZES their auto industries! Hardly Adam Smith.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Horseshit. Here's The Proof:
Edited on Mon Dec-15-08 10:32 PM by MannyGoldstein
German industries are very heavily unionized, perhaps the most unionized in the world - and their unions are powerful. In one recent instance, the forced the ouster of the CEO of a huge semiconductor company. They get great benefits, including 5 weeks + vacation a year, to start! Yet, Germany is the biggest net exporter of goods in the world. And their auto companies are doing fine. If unionized labor were inherently bad, then Germany could not have the success that it has.

I know from firsthand experience that, in a dysfunctional company, all things turn dysfunctional - including the unionized labor. Function or dysfunction comes from the top. Period.

(Evidence to a Republican is like a cross to a vampire.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Arghhh!
It burns! It burns!:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Its an important point you made to help debunk this
Also in Germany the union is on the board
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boomerbust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. You Can Tell
This Motherfucker never did a days worth of work in his life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. Why post this here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. (smile) OK
we'll see
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Uhhh, yeah. Thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. This sounds like something that you find on SNOPES.COM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Actually it is because its an semi effective lie
that can be proven false and at the same time go viral
since it is filled with enough half truths that could give it credibility
to the half informed..


I think as a piece of propaganda it needs to be attacked and
disproved on SNOPES.com. I'm sure it will come up there.

Good Point.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I'm going to post this on the Snopes message board. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. OK, my humble attempt
if you get a chance:
From Gregory Knox,
In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me.

You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream".
--- Yep the democracies that are called labor unions are a plague for those who want total control over others.

The dream is over!

The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities and that still the masses will line up to buy our products

--Making enough money to buy a house, send their kids to school is too much money? Lazy? If a union brother slacks off, he will be held to task by his fellow union workers. His slacking off makes it harder on everyone, and sullies the name of the union. Lazy is not a union value.

Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

--You are wrong. Again, unions are a sign of a democratic nation. But then you are a business owner and don't like your absolute rule challenged.

Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states:
There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not.
You're right, it's not JUST management. How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week

--Just because they don't jump when you snap your fingers, doesn't mean they are up to something subversive. Your problem might not be the first job on his work orders.

How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?

--Line work is hard, dangerous, and wears the body out. Union and management knows what pace is the most productive over a long period. A newbie might be working really hard to impress his supervisor and peers, but he doesn't quite understand that a career is a marathon, not a sprint. Working at a fast clip around heavy machinery leads to mistakes, injuries, and a shortened career. The average useful life of a line worker at Toyota is 12 years. There's high turnover due to repetitive stress injuries. Find a pace you can maintain for eight or more hours.

How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:
Over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.

What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?

Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?

The K car vs. the Accord?

--How about something from this century?

The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?


-- See my above comment.

Do I need to go on?

--No, you've already made a fool of yourself.

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades.

Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and something else would happen where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up that is how a free market system works, it does work if we would let it work.

--Milton Friedman in your vest pocket, or is it Ayn Rand up your wazoo?

But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work that we need the government to step in and "save us" save us, hell we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a clue that this is what's really happening but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams, yeah THAT'S important.

--Oh, now he's playing the "Socialism card."

Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?...

-- They are getting big subsidies from their home country, and real sweetheart deals from "right to work" states. They are also being bailed out by their countries as I write this.


How can that be???

Let's see.

Fuel efficient

Listening to customers

Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago

--Can't blame those on the unions. They build the car management designs.


Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"

--Oh, now I am seeing a bit of bitterness. Did someone shun you?

Efficient front and back offices

Non union environment

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know in their hearts


I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way). I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through.

--Give back all those tax credits for all those kids.


Radical concept, huh!

Am I there for them in the wings? Of course, but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.

Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people it's coming whether we like it or not

The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away". I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied "we might not do it in a year or in four". Where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office?

--Since then the bottom has fallen out of the world wide economy and bush is MIA.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable.

That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000

--Florida is an extreme case.

People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits

--Where did your family come from?

That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year

--Why? back in the eighties I knew workers at Toyota making $75,000 a year. Don't you want the same for our workers in Detroit?

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home

-- Gee thanks, I'd never had figured that out.


Let the market correct itself people, it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world and probably turns back to God.

Sorry don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news"

--You must be well off enough that you believe you can weather the storm of a depression, or survive social disruption that's sure to happen if you put three million people out of a job to teach them a lesson.

Gregory J Knox
President and --asshole
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Awesome....thanks for the reply! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I'll second the awesome.
Edited on Tue Dec-16-08 08:42 PM by PerfectSage
Another reason to support the big3 bailout.



Further adding to the troubles in the world's former financial Mecca, the US Congress, acting on largely ideological grounds, shocked the financial system when it refused to give even a meager $14 billion emergency loan to the Big Three automakers-General Motors, Chrysler and Ford.

While it is likely that the Treasury will extend emergency credit to the companies until January 20 or until the newly elected Congress can consider a new plan, the prospect of a chain-reaction bankruptcy collapse of the three giant companies is very near. What is being left out of the debate is that those three companies account for a combined 25% of all US corporate bonds outstanding. They are held by private pension funds, mutual funds, banks and others. If the auto parts suppliers of the Big Three are included, an estimated $1 trillion of corporate bonds are now at risk of chain-reaction default. Such a bankruptcy failure could trigger a financial catastrophe which would make what has happened since Lehman Bros. appear as a mere hiccup in a hurricane.





Federal Reserve sets stage for Weimar-style Hyperinflation
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11401
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. We know the Reps want a total collapse so the US can be rebuilt in their
own image, like they attempted with Iraq and New Orleans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Mar 13th 2025, 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC