Responsible Dog Breeders- How To Spot Them

[KittyWampus]

I've done feral cat rescues and have only ever owned black and white tuxedo kitties who most certainly weren't purebreeds. However, I've also known 2 people who bred dogs- Great Danes and German Shepards. They love their animals and probably spent more money caring for animals than they ever made from selling litter pups. They were very particular about who adopted their pups and spent time and effort making sure pedigrees ensured healthy results.

While it's great to encourage people to adopt from shelters, I really would like to take a minute to point out there's a place in the world for responsible animals breeders and how to spot a responsible breeder.

If I leave anything out, please let us know.

Signs of a Responsible Dog Breeder:

*Sticks to one or two breeds

*Usually has no more than one or two litters a year in their homes

*Limits each bitch to about three litters in their entire life

*Probably raises pups in the house so they are socialized from birth

*Allows prospective owners to view kennels if kennels are used

*Many don't ship pups

*Doesn't sell to anyone without interviewing first

*Charges enough to BARELY cover costs. A pure bred dog won't be less than $1000. Sometimes if a pup isn't best representation of breed or has issues it'll be sold for less but responsible breeders fully disclose all issues

*Generally insist on spaying of animals. Sometimes they stipulate a pup be allowed to breed once

*Have taken time to study pedigrees

*Probably belongs to a Breed Association and will be in good standing with that organization. Take the time to check. This does NOT mean American Kennel Club (the devil in disguise)

***Some breeders go to the trouble of bringing animals over from Europe to improve the breed. Europe has much higher standards.

[elleng]

1. Thank you for this.

Here's an example, imo:


http://dogwebs.net/lazyriver/

[XemaSab]

80. No link to the puppycam?

:shrug:

[elleng]

86. puppycam

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shayla-%26-her-golden-retriever-puppies

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. Given how she was during the birth, I don't know about that

The woman is nuts.

[XemaSab]

98. She's a total freak for sure

but according to the guidelines above, she's a responsible breeder.

[elleng]

101. Who are you talking about?

Goldens breeder or someone else?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

103. The breeder with the golden retreiver puppy cam

She was nuts, manhandling the pups, letting other cats and dogs jumping in and out of the whelping box. Moving all the puppies around constantly, etc.

[elleng]

104. I've watched her every day, since night of their birth;

I missed the early part of the day, when I understand there was lots going on. As I see her, the pups development, and mom's 'recovery,' its clear that she (Sue) knows what she's doing, explains everything when viewers have questions, and is very conscientious.

She certainly doesn't have an 'ordinary' life, but she sure isn't 'nuts.' She loves what she does; she runs a kennel and ranch. The 'other cats and dogs' live there, know the mom dog Shayla, wanted to see what was happening. The pups have to be handled regularly for various reasons, relating to their well-being.

Here's tonights assesment of puppies weight gains:

green, blue, red, & beige have gained 5 oz
teal & white have gained 6 oz
pink & yellow have gained 7 oz

[Runcible Spoon]

2. also, responsible breeders limit their bitches to 3 or 4 litters a LIFETIME

and yes, true breeders rarely make money, it's not the primary objective for them. The health and well-being of their dogs is!

all that said:

PLEASE ADOPT.

[KittyWampus]

3. Added that to the list.

[jhrobbins]

119. We have two pure bred poodles that we love to death and if we had it to

do over again, we would absolutely get these dogs (one is a Phantom female-if you have never seen a Phantom poodle, google it-they are marked like Dobermans; and the other is a red poodle), but I will never again buy a dog from a breeder while wonderful animals languish in cages(I can barely write this). My partner and I rescue cats and we have dealt with a couple of feral cats that we turned around with constant affection. I won't say how many cats we have currently, as I would like to retain what little reputation I have here, but suffice it to say, it is a lot

[flvegan]

4. "Responsible" breeders that don't also do breed rescue are worthless.

If you're going to contribute to a problem, you damn well better help out with it.

[KittyWampus]

5. Responsible breeders aren't contributing to any problems. They make sure all their animals

are well taken care of. Hence, the word "responsible".

[flvegan]

21. 5 million animals euthanized each year.

They contribute to that. It's simple supply/demand. Do I have to explain that to you?

[superduperfarleft]

22. Gotta get rid of the excess stock somehow.

After all, the new 2009 puppies are in!

[flvegan]

31. I laugh every time I see the term, "responsible breeder".

Can't tell if it's an attempt at justification or an apology.

[KittyWampus]

34. So you are a zealot. It explains why you can't see the obvious need

to educate people about not buying from animal mills and not allowing their pets to indiscriminately reproduce.

Those are the two REAL issues. A zealot can't distinguish between the stick they are chasing and the hand that holds the stick. You focus on the stick.

Not buying from mills and preventing unwanted litters are issues that largely depend on educating the public (hence my starting this thread) and also funding.

Responsible breeders are on the right side of the two REAL issues.

[superduperfarleft]

37. I think I'm going to breed some filipino children.

After all, I love their breed. They're just so pretty, plus their dark skin will match my drapes.

Know any good orphanages?

[KittyWampus]

39. A better representation of your bad attitude= all couples should stop having their own kids

since there are already enough out there for adoption.

Any one wanting to have their own child is irresponsible for bringing MORE kids into the world when there are already so many homeless.

[superduperfarleft]

40. Different flamewar for another thread. (removed n/t)

edit: and my point was more that someone adopting a child is doing so because of a desire to help someone, not because they find the particular physical attributes of that child attractive. (and if they did, I think we could agree that would be sort of a fucked up reason to adopt a child)

[flvegan]

43. No, I'm consistent.

I promote spay/neuter programs and disparage folks from buying a dog and getting one from a rescue...like the one I run. Breeders are responsible for the deaths of as many dogs as they sell. End of story.

[KittyWampus]

44. You're not "consistent". You're trying to stamp out an activity that results in pets finding loving

homes.

I'll post this again.

Eliminating the excess domestic animal population will occur by making sure animal mills don't prosper and unwanted animals aren't born.

Responsible breeders aren't involved in either of the above situations.

END OF STORY.

[flvegan]

47. No, I'm trying to stamp out an activity that results in pets finding their demise.

Breeders are nothing short of much smaller scale mills. They both provide the same service, just on a different scale.

[LeftyMom]

48. Damn right.

[KittyWampus]

55. Ah, another zealot who can't distinguish between those who act responsibly and those

who ACTUALLY cause the problems.

Sadly, you are very vocal.

[LeftyMom]

72. Overpopulation is the overarching problem.

Most of the related issues stem from that.

[KittyWampus]

54. Responsible breeders don't contribute to any pets finding their demise. They take care in placing

their animals' offspring.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[flvegan]

57. You must've flunked economics

because you sure don't know shit about supply and demand.

[KittyWampus]

58. You sure don't know shit about demand for purebreds. It exists. Hence, the need f/RESPONSIBLE

breeders and the need to educate people how to avoid animal mills.

You are a proponent of the Magic Wand Method of dealing with this problem.

Just wave a magic wand and people will just stop wanting specific breeds of animals.

Well, a Realist sees the need to educate people rather than trying to guilt people out of what they want.

My method= people making educated choices.

Your method= turning people off and having them ignore the problem and remaining uneducated because your attempt at laying a guilt trip on them is counter productive.

[flvegan]

60. I agree, they should avoid the "responsible" breeders

and visit a breed specific rescue. Nothing you're saying trumps the fact that every bred dog equals a dead dog.

[KittyWampus]

62. That was a typo that was just fixed. Nothing your saying disproves the obvious FACT

that responsible, loving breeders don't place their pets in homes where the animal will be abandoned.

You're too much a zealot to realize that if someone is set on a bred of dog (for instance) they're going to get one.

And if the face of that reality, it's best to educate these people on where to find someone who raises healthy pets.

[flvegan]

66. So these breeders are fortune tellers, are they?

They know the exact course of the lives of the family they're selling a puppy to over the next 15 or so years?

So, some simple math: 30% or so of all shelter dogs are purebred. You're saying that NONE of them come from these so-called "responsible" breeders? Uh huh. You know that for something to be a fact, it has to be unquestionably true. So...fail for you.

I recognize that if someone is set on a breed of dog they'll do what they can to get one. They could go to a breed specific rescue, find one in a shelter or buy one, thereby killing a shelter dog.

[Critters2]

82. I was set on a beagle. Twice. And I found them. One at a shelter,

the other from a breed rescue. My next dog won't come from a breeder, either. And will be a purebred.

[KittyWampus]

33. Responsible dog breeders make sure their pups don't go to new owners who will abandon those pups

Do I have to explain that to you?

You want to keep 5 million animals from being euthanized?

Make animal mills illegal and spaying animals in non-breeder homes a priority.

Eliminating animal mills and unwanted pets is largely a matter of education but also funding.

[flvegan]

42. Okay, so I do have to expain it to you.

There are a finite number of "spaces" where dogs can go live with people. People have a choice of adopting one from a shelter or rescue, picking up a stray or going to a breeder/store and buying one. If you fill one of those limited number of "spaces" with a dog bought from a breeder/store, that action is ultimately responsible for killing a homeless dog. If you sell dogs, either as a breeder or a store, every dog you put into the system kills a homeless dog.

Get it now?

[Robb]

46. Well, you're assuming a few things that may not be.

For example, not all dogs are appropriate as pets in all households, and not all people adopt a dog for the same reasons.

Also, there are many people (of which I are one) who have adopted shelter dogs because of the experience I had raising a kennel dog. I doubt I would've gone for it if I hadn't "cut my teeth" on my first dog. Who, it could be argued, trained me to be a good dog owner.

So it's not entirely a zero sum kind of deal. :shrug:

[flvegan]

50. Nothing I stated was an assumption.

[Robb]

76. Well, yes it was.

You assume every person who gets a kennel dog would otherwise have gotten a shelter dog.

[jhrobbins]

121. I think that what he was saying was that for every canine requisite,

a dog that will fit those parameters can be found in shelters. If an individual really doesn't want a 'mutt', but would rather have a 'pure breed' (no such thing), they can be found in breed specific shelters as well as the possibility that a regular shelter may have the breed one is looking for - it is a matter of checking in with them regularly.
I know that this will never totally come to pass, because there are so many that will not have anything but a 'pure breed', but perhaps the huge numbers of shelter animals can be reduced by adoption.

[jhrobbins]

120. I understand exactly what you mean.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

90. The woman that we adopted Beag from is one of those breeders

She breeds Border Collies, but she also does a lot of work rescuing area Border Collies, taking them into her home until she can get them homes. Apparently, rural PA has a big problem with Border Collies getting dumped off.

[superduperfarleft]

6. There's never anything responsible about breeders. Ever. n/t

[KittyWampus]

8. That's a fucked up, ignorant attitude.

[superduperfarleft]

9. So is continuing to breed domesticated animals for the privileged class

When there are millions of animals starving in the streets and dying in shelters.

I bet you think no-kill shelters are better too.

[KittyWampus]

11. Since I've probably spent more time than you caring for abandoned and feral cats

maybe you want to reconsider your last line?

Just because there are so many irresponsible pet owners who don't spay doesn't mean those who love a particular breed of dog shouldn't enjoy caring for them.

[superduperfarleft]

14. Ooh, a pissing contest.

You don't know shit about me or what I've done, so stick to the point.

You know what a "responsible breeder" is? Pier One. You know what a puppy-mill is? Wal-Mart.

Those with the typical american consumerist attitude of "I want it cheap and I want it now" go to puppy mills, while those with the equivalent of an "I'll impress my equally-shallow neighbors by wasting money on crap I don't need" attitude go to "responsible breeders."

You love a breed of dog just like you love a new handbag. So yes, you are part of the problem.

ALL breeders are part of the problem, not just puppy mills.

[KittyWampus]

18. I've never owned a purebred animal. And there's nothing "consumerist" about seeking out an animal

who you are willing to lovingly take care of and train.

There may be people who buy animals as accessories. A LOT of breeders won't sell to them if they detect that in the prospective buyer.

[superduperfarleft]

20. Ah, so it's selfishness. Got it.

Lucky for the animals that there's plenty of animal rescue people to clean up the mess that you and your breeder buddies keep creating.

edit: It's an animal, not a stamp collection.

[KittyWampus]

26. Responsible dog breeders don't create problems as they are very careful where their pups are placed

do you have issues with reading comprehension?

Animal rescue people (like me) are rescuing animals from people who run puppy mills- that is, breeders who don't socialize or care for the pups or screen buyers.

[superduperfarleft]

30. I read fine, it's you who is being obtuse. n/t

[LeftyMom]

49. I'm guessing not.

Probably because I know the poster in question.

[Runcible Spoon]

23. Super, your heart is very obviously in the right place but...

There will always be a market for animals bred for specific things like appearance and performance. Humans have been selectively breeding animals across culture and time since just about, well, since domestication. Native Americans selectively bred their horses and dogs. When the Nez Perce lost the war against the US Cavalry, the Army shot their beautiful Appaloosa horses to demoralize them. They Tribe today is interbreeding with Asian stock to revitalize the breed without having to resort to imbreeding.

Yes, a lot of people who want these animals are wealthy. But they DO love their animals. Trying to outlaw breeding will result in taking breeding underground, which is never a good thing where animals are involved. Regulating breeding, and giving visibility to breed rescues and mutt shelters alike, and educating the public to make responsible decisions is what will lessen the problem. There will always be a market for dogs whose pedigree can be traced back 10 generations, but most people who go into a pet store and pick up a mill puppy are just clueless and would certainly make a better decision if they had better information.

This is a hard subject because just about everyone, aside from puppy millers, truly love their animals. I do agree with the sentiment that every puppy bought equals a dog that must die in a shelter somewhere, but the reality is that some people want a purebred dog and you're not going to change their minds on that. The best we can do is push adoption first, and make sure that breeding is something rare and special, not a fucking cottage industry!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. Privileged class?

:rofl:

Yeah, come check out my house.

[Botany]

16. You can not be more wrong

I have dear freinds who are breeders.

One day one of the owners saw a Doberman Pinscher being mistreated ...
Ron walked up to the owner and gave the man $300 and bought the dog
on the spot .... even though his kennel raises labs & Cavalier King Charles
Spaniel .... that doby lived out his life @ that man's side and was a wonderful
pal .... the owner is also a vet and when a medical problem made him have
to put down the doby he did it himself and cried over his dog's body.

BTW the give pups to Pilot Dogs & send out older labs to be comfort dogs
to senior citizen's homes & hospices ....

The owners are republicans too.

[superduperfarleft]

17. OMG, one little random anecdote has totally changed my opinion!!! n/t

[Botany]

25. You would be a lucky person if you had those breeders as friends

and that one little random anecdote goes to the character of the man

BTW I have a bunch of other good stories about those breeders ....
such as going out on nasty rainy night to save a neighbor horse from
dying and not taking a penny for it.

[superduperfarleft]

28. I look at like making up for the damage he and his ilk have caused over the years.

If he gave a shit about animals, he'd quit breeding them and spend that time in animal rescue, helping to clean up the mess that he helped perpetuate for so many years.

[Robb]

36. Which is why

...you're no doubt writing this from your hut in Peace Corps Mali.

[superduperfarleft]

38. What the hell does that have to do with breeders?

<insert bunny with a pancake on his head picture here>

[sudopod]

41. OMG, one loud asshole on the internet has totally changed my opinion!!! n/t

[hootinholler]

117. !

:rofl:

-Hoot

[Botany]

7. Over all good ideas

This kennel has lots more than 2 to 3 litters per year and
ships pups but does it in the right way. Sally & Ron Bell Borador's kennels

I have one of their labs under my feet right now.

***********

BTW Joe Biden got his pup from a good breeder not a puppy mill.

[Runcible Spoon]

10. No, Biden's dog came from a puppy mill.

I'll dig up links if you insist but there is plenty of research in the other threads.

[KittyWampus]

12. Probably a case of sheer ignorance on the issue. Which is why I posted this thead

not to continue the debate on Biden's choice.

[Botany]

19. Looks to me that Joe did his homework on the pup

Jill Biden promised her hubby that if he and Obama won the election they too would buy a dog

Biden's pup, from Jolindy's German shepherd kennel in Spring City, will be trained and housebroken over the next several weeks and delivered after the inauguration.

The owner of the kennel says Biden told her his grandchildren will get to pick a name.

Mark Tobin, who coordinates the K-9 division for police in Biden's home county of New Castle, Del., will do the training.

Apparently, Biden had Tobin scout out breeder Linda Brown beforehand. Brown said Tobin called her up, came to her house to check her out, and told her she had “beautiful dogs.” And, that’s pretty much how it all began.

Brown says the Vice President-elect will be relieved to find his new puppy isn't a political beast.

The puppy he chose is "very even-tempered" she said, and will make a nice family dog.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28221617/

[OwnedByFerrets]

27. The more that puppy mills are supported, the longer they will

exist. Dont support them, they will go away. PERIOD.

[flvegan]

29. And having the VP elect as a client will surely boost that mill's business.

Thanks again, Joe!

[Runcible Spoon]

32. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The breeder was a miller:

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/harrisburg_politics/Kennel_where_Biden_bought_puppy_is_cited.html

Google around and you can find a LOT more. The breeder falsified litter registrations, and has a special permit to keep 250 dogs. There were 84 dogs on the property when the citation was issued. She has a show facility and an additional facility that churns out the puppies.

But yeah, this topic was not about Biden..

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

93. Biden got his dog from a puppy mill

Sorry.

[Muttocracy]

108. actually the one Biden chose is a puppy mill

or at least a very poor breeder if people want to get hung up on definitions. She runs two operations, a large one and a huge one under different names.

No working titles on her dogs. Four simultaneous litters on her website.

AKC violations. Violations with PA Dept of Ag (and PA is NOT strict) for lack of recordkeeping including where her dogs are now, and the conditions in which she's keeping them.

I can dig up links from other threads if you need them.

The cops who helped Biden with this screwed up.

[BobRossi]

13. Pretty accurate.

I would add that it is a good idea to contact breeder's associations and inquire about specific breeders.

[KittyWampus]

15. Thanks, I added that.

[OwnedByFerrets]

24. With millions of canines being killed yearly, is there such a

thing as a "responsible" dog breeder. I believe its highly debatable.

[Robb]

35. Considering the overwhelming majority of "incarcerated" dogs

...are not purebred, it would stand to reason it's possible the majority of breeders are finding homes for their animals.

My aunt has been involved in the purebred Siberian Husky scene (there's no other way to describe it) for decades. When it became known in the family several years ago that I wanted a dog, emails began flying between her and about a dozen other "husky people", not to determine what kind of dog I would have -- as obviously there was no question it would be a husky, they figgered :D -- but rather which kennel's dogs were appropriate for my life in the high country of Colorado.

Eventually I got a call from a woman who "inherited" one of the breed's foundation kennels, this line of dogs, from the "founder" decades earlier; apparently she worked for the woman who started in on them. All this was of course new to me. She grilled me for about an hour, three different phone calls, about the kind of life I would be offering a dog.

Apparently I passed, and she sent a dog she had no intention of breeding; contrary to rumor, not all dogs that will not be bred are killed, hers are all put into the life of "simple pet." Instead of show/working dog; her kennel wins awards in the ring, and her dogs finish Iditarod and work in remote parts of Alaska where they still do all that. Her breeding program was to accentuate the beauty of the dogs, without losing any of the "working dog" traits.

FWIW, the dog I got was about 10 months old, and was free (although I paid for his flight to the lower 48, about $100 at the time). The personality match to me was uncanny (clearly the breeder knew him well) and he was about the best doggy ever.

Later I adopted another husky who was facing death in a post-Katrina shelter. I like to think of it as, the "fancy" dog adopted me, and I adopted the pound husky. Good deal all the way around.

[OwnedByFerrets]

78. .....

"it would stand to reason it's possible the majority of breeders are finding homes for their animals." IF that statement is true, would it not stand to reason that if they "werent" being bred, more mutts would find homes?

[Robb]

84. Yes

...If you believe all potential purebred buyers would adopt all shelter dogs equally.

[TahitiNut]

45. I'd add to that ...

* Often invest more in the accommodations for the dogs than they do in their own homes, cars, and possessions.
* Insist that the new owner pick up the puppy on the 49th day. (I STRONGLY recommend this.)
* Insist that the new owner return the puppy to THEM instead of abandoning it or selling it.
* Conduct beginning obedience training and field training for the new owners.

Dog shows (field and bench), veterinarians, and breed associations are good sources of recommendations and ratings.

[LeftyMom]

51. Unicorns: How to Spot Them.

They're in the back yards of the responsible dog breeders.

[flvegan]

52. +1

:rofl:

[KittyWampus]

56. In the end YOU end up being a part of the problem. You're screwed up attitude shuts off those

who might otherwise hear the necessary message which is- if you insist on a purebred animal go to a responsible breeder.

[flvegan]

59. And visit with the lovely unicorn in their backyard.

If you insist on a purebred animal, go to a breed specific rescue.

[Robb]

61. Which exist, it should be pointed out

...because of people having an affinity for a particular breed.

Not all families are ready for all kinds of dogs.

[KittyWampus]

64. Ah, so you WANT the puppy mills to continue so those who want a specific breed can rescue them

from deplorable conditions.

That is so screwed up it's hard to reply.

[flvegan]

68. At what point did I say that?

I understand that you're clinging to a losing argument with both hands, but suggesting such a blatant lie is just pathetic.

[LeftyMom]

63. Nonsense. If you insist on a purebred animal (which is dumb) then go to a rescue or a shelter.

My Dad likes boxers. Every dog he's had in his adult lifetime was a purebred boxer, though not a papered one (papers don't matter if you're not an asshole breeder or a dog show nitwit) and all of them came from our local municipal shelters.

Better still would be to get over the idea of boutique dogs, and realize that any loving companion who fits well into your home is deserving of care, whether or not they fit some arbitrary breed standards.

[KittyWampus]

65. If you want a child, go to an adoption center. Oh, and as someone who worked at a shelter

MOST purebred rescue animals have health and behavioral issues that many people don't want to deal with.

They most likely weren't socialized properly, house trained or have birth defects that are expensive to repair. Etc, etc.

[flvegan]

70. Having volunteered and sat on the BOD of mine, you fail again.

MOST do not meet the criteria you've suggested. That, or you don't know shit about evaluating animals in a shelter environment.

SOME do, MOST do not.

[KittyWampus]

77. I hope to Ceiling Cat you NEVER have anything to do with public outreach.

[flvegan]

87. Your concern is noted.

I've built a pretty solid rescue that does a good amount of public outreach, so looks like your prayers go unanswered.

[LeftyMom]

71. Not really planning on having another, but thanks for the advice.

In response to your edit: That's not my experience at all.

[Critters2]

83. My beagle, a rescue purebred, has earned her CGC and Rally Novice titles,

and would probably do even more if there were more non-AKC competitions around here. She can't compete in AKC meets, because she's not papered and, even more disgustingly, not "intact". But she's healthy and well-trained. And a purebred rescued dog.

[superduperfarleft]

75. Fucking win.

:rofl:

[Maru Kitteh]

122. OMG. That was beautiful!

:toast:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. My brother bought a gorgeous dog from a breeder who met all those criteria

The dog had to be put down because of extreme aggressiveness and destructiveness, even towards members of the household. My brother and his family, who have always had dogs without any major problems, were at their wit's end and tried everything else. According to the vet, that set of behaviors is a rare but known flaw in that breed and is incurable, but the breeder claimed that there was no such syndrome.

[XemaSab]

85. Cocker Spaniel?

:shrug:

/been there, done that, NEVER owning a purebred dog AGAIN

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. English setter

Absolutely stunningly beautiful dog--with the personality of a sociopath.

[Coyote_Bandit]

67. There

certainly are responsible breeders. And I would not hesitate to get a dog from a responsible breeder.

As a matter of principle I will not accept an animal from most rescue groups as I do not agree with their placement terms. When I take in an animal I am making a commitment to that animal not to some group who deemed me worthy to care for the animal. Because I have made a commitment to the animal and care for it, have opportunity to observe and know its character, needs, preferences and range of experiences I am most qualified to make decisions regarding the care of the animal. Not the rescue group. The terms of placement of most rescue groups are such that the groups is unwilling to totally surrender responsibility for the animal to me. Virtually all of these groups retain some interest and responsibility for the animal. For reasons I have already detailed that is unacceptable to me. If something were to happen to me I have both a home and an alternate home which would take my animals in and care for them. The residents in both those homes know and are familiar with my dogs. I have no assurance that those arrangements would be acceptable to or honored by a rescue group - but then it doesn't matter since I am not under contract with any such group and have no commitment to such a group. Ultimately, I view my commitment to my animals as far more important than any commitment to a rescue group.

Currently, I have two pure bred papered dogs. I learned of and obtained both dogs by making inquiry through local veterinarians. I consider them both rescue dogs though neither came from a traditional animal rescue group. Both dogs were in need of a forever home. Both would have otherwise been difficult to place (one was a renal dog at 5 months of age, the other was poorly socialized and vision impaired after having been attacked by another dog). With just a little bit of effort most anybody can locate and adopt an animal in need of a home - and often without cost.

[lonestarnot]

69. There is no such thing.

Too many dogs are destroyed daily.

[TuxedoKat]

73. I don't have anything to add

to what you've said just that I'm a fellow Tuxedo Cat lover too. One of these days I'll figure out how to put a picture of one in my icon space. I rescue cats too, on a smaller scale. Tuxedo cats are my favorite cat, but I only have one right now. I had another sweet, little Tuxedo Cat, but she died of FeLV this year. My other cat is a purebred Siberian -- purchased from a responsible breeder. My husband will only allow this type of hypoallergenic cat as he is allergic to cats.

[Lisa0825]

102. My Tuxedo gal...

I rescued at about 6 weeks old, about a week before a major cold spell, complete with freezing rain. I am so grateful that I saw her little face poking through the fence when I did...

[TuxedoKat]

116. Ahh...

what a beautiful, sweet little kitty! Thanks for sharing. :) I was trying to post some photos to you but I can't get my computer to cooperate. Maybe if I send them to you personally at DU. I will try that.

[PatSeg]

74. Amazing how "black and white"

this issue is to many people - no middle ground whatsoever.

Thanks for a reasonable post on the subject, even though some of the responses were a tad bit opinionated.

[ColbertWatcher]

79. Good post. Thank you. n/t

[Dappleganger]

81. They will also take back dogs

Ones with behavior problems, have been abandoned, etc. Every responsible breeder I have ever met *insists* that if you can no longer care for the dog, you bring it back to them, period. It is in their contract, along with the spay/neuter clause.

Good breeders do not want problem dogs running around and misrepresenting their efforts (kennel). They will either re-train and re-home that dog or keep it for life.

Also, the best breeders only do so for the betterment of the breed--physical and temperment genes must be of the highest standard. If a dog isn't throwing good genes, that one should be spayed/neutered and sold as a pet for a lesser cost.

[Muttocracy]

109. Yes, lifetime contract is a minimum - and breeders who can't guarantee it

are either breeding too many, or dogs they know will come back for health or behavior reasons.

[XemaSab]

88. So-called "purebreds" will probably be obsolete in 50 years

Dogs bred for appearance are often inbred and genetically weak animals.

Both my aunt and my grandma had "purebred" toy poodles. Between the two animals, there was diabetes, kidney failure, epilepsy, knees that would pop out of joint, tooth loss, hair loss, congenital spinal deformity involving VERY expensive surgery, PLUS behavior problems such as constant barking and wetting in the house.

Okay, they were cute and fluffy little boogers, at least until their health problems caught up with them, but cute and fluffy is NOT worth thousands of dollars in vet bills every year.

"But people want cute and fluffy toy poodles, and by selective breeding, we can make them cuter and fluffier!"

Yeah, you COULD breed a dog with a 75-pound body, two inch legs, and long droopy ears that drag on the ground, but SHOULD you? :shrug:

"Purebreeding" is all just Nazi bullshit.

Here's a MUST SEE DOCUMENTARY about "purebred" dogs:

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/pedigree/video/x6l7hl_pedigree-dogs-exposed-part-1-of-6_animals

I think there's a real reason why fancy crossbreeds have been popular in the last few years, and that's because most of the old breed lines are collapsing.

I've got three mutts, and they're all terrific dogs. Aside from Pip's allergies, none of them have any health problems, and they're all happy, active dogs. Sometimes a little too happy and too active. :crazy:

(If someone wants to breed a puppy that won't chew up the couch, let me know. x( )

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. I think the designer mutts are popular because people are idiots and they have cute names

They're often from mills and cost as much, if not more, than purebred dogs.

And for a double bonus, they're often subject to the genetic defect of both their parents.

[XemaSab]

96. That too

:D

"For my next dog, I want a stinkypoo. It's a Staffordshire/keeshond/poodle mix. It should go well with the new fall colors." :crazy:

They're subject to the same genetic flaws because their parents were bred by the same group of Nazis that put together the "purebreds" in the first place.

[RobinA]

124. So, I Can't

buy mutts OR purebreds?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. The point is breeding unhealthy mutts for profit is bad

Adopting mutts (or purebreds) is good.

I have two purebred rescue dogs. My mom has a German Shepherd from a good Schutzhund breeder. I'm fine with that. If she bought a puppy mill dog, or a AKC conformation dog, I'd be pissed at her, because neither of those should be supported.

[superduperfarleft]

105. RE: "Nazis."

I'm glad someone else said it. I agree with you 100%.

If I were talking about human children when it came to "the good of the breed," I'd rightfully be cast as eugenicist scum.

[Muttocracy]

110. Funny how inbreeding turns into purebreeding for marketing purpose... nt

[davsand]

92. Good breeders have to love that particular breed in EVERY way--flaws and all.

I haven't known too many dog breeders, but the two that I have known were breeders because they especially loved that particular breed and wanted to see it perpetuated. For them, anyway, it was more about the dogs.

I have known (casually) a couple of cat breeders that were less worried about the animals and more focused on the "money and fame" of being a breeder. One had a female that had a slight defect according to that particular breed standard (a kink in the tail, as I recall.) That breeder was aware of the "defect" in that female yet she allowed her to have a couple more litters of kittens over the couple of years I was around.

She got really (SCREAMINGLY) pissed at me one time when I asked why she was allowing that female to pass those genetics on to further generations. She kept on yelling that it was all about getting more (insert breed) cats out into homes. The last time I saw her was at a cat show where that female had been disqualified for her "defect."

Amazed the hell out of me because all my animals have been rescues and it never occurred to me that something as minor as a kink in a cat's tail could pose an issue to anybody. Hell, I was mostly worried about missing, sick, or defective (necessary) body parts, heart worm or FELV status--ya know?

Anyhow, I think there is a very real disconnect for some folks on both sides of this issue. The puppy mills are one extreme end of the spectrum where the animals are a commodity and some (NOT all) rescue groups feel every animal should be accorded the same levels of legal protection as human children. Either extreme makes me uncomfortable, but I figure that if I'm gonna error I'd rather it be in treating my animals TOO well.

Peace to you all, I am touched by the passions here on both sides because it speaks volumes about the kindness of the DUers.



Laura

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

106. I personally have issues with breeding for "looks"

Obviously, this doesn't extend to cats, because specific breeds of cats aren't bred for a purpose.

But in dogs, I have HUGE issues with breeding for show conformation. It results in lots of health issues for the dogs. I have two rescue Border Collies. Both are from working lines. They were bred to work, and it shows in how they act. People always ask if they're Border Collies mixes (or a heeler mix in the case of Mick), because they don't look like the fluffy, fat "Border Collies" that the AKC is breeding now. The AKC hasn't even recognized them for long at all, and their version is already completely different than the working version. Bigger, fluffier, dumber, more hyper, and less healthy. Border Collies have a reputation for being insane, because they are bred to act that way. It's a shame.

Just like the German Shepherds being shown are totally crippled. My mom has a German Shepherd pup from German schutzhund lines, and it's completely different than the dogs you see on TV. Her hips aren't sloping and lame. She comes from dogs that are bred to do protection work, and crippled dogs just can't do that.

[Muttocracy]

111. really interesting site on GSD conformation

I'll give a rescue group some hits on the way there...

http://gsrne.org/gsd_standard.htm links to http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/12_Type_Comparison/Comparison_Types.html

One of my half-GSD mutts actually looks more like the early 20th century GSDs then the AKC ones do now.
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/GSDhistory.html
http://www.justshepherds.com/debate.htm

[davsand]

118. I agree that some of these "breed standards" have weakened the animals.

German Shepherds with hip dysplasia because of the "desirable" sloping hindquarters, Persian cats with serious sinus and eye deformities due to that "desirable" pushed in face, Manx cats with spinal issues--the list goes on and on. Pisses me off to see breeders working to WEAKEN the breed. It isn't a matter of even breeding for "looks" I don't think. How attractive IS a crippled dog or a malformed cat, really? How attractive is the human that BREEDS an animal to be weaker or less able to survive?


As with all humans, there is a spectrum of breeders out there. Some are more in line with my thinking than others, and I do not understand any breeding program that weakens the animals in any way.



Laura

[FreeState]

95. One more VERY important: let you contact and visit other dogs they have adopted out

The reason for this is if there is any problems being passed genetically you can tell via the other dogs. Responsible breeders do not breed dogs with underbites, testicles that do not descend, hip problems etc - being a pure breed and having papers never insures health.

[this_side_up]

97. 160 dogs drowned. She saved 4 puppies.

Through darkness and hypothermia, Nancy Punches waited. The demon water of the Chehalis River had overtaken her property, erased the lives of her 160 prized show dogs and pushed trees the size of train cars against her manufactured home.

Nancy Punches is also an American Kennel Club judge.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1228714003232070.xml&coll=7

In all of the articles I've read about her and the dogs...not one
word about employees helping to socialize the dogs, dog walking,
training etc.

I don't think she has any employees or even friendly dog-lovers to help.
And people have given her at least 1 purebred to help start
up her operation again.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

99. No one should have 160 dogs, AKC judge or not, she was a puppy miller

The AKC is scum.

[this_side_up]

114. Thanks. I agree she is a miller.

Any time I read or hear about her, I want to scream.

In one article, she said......have to pull myself up by
my bootstraps. Bootstraps is another code word, I guess.
So many of them use it.

A couple of times a week, I drive by the faded sign
that was installed near the sidewalk about 8-9 months
ago: Pitbull puppies, the number of males & females
and phone number. The sign is still there. I wonder
how many of that litter are still living in the home
and if they've bred the mother again.

Anything for a buck.

[bertman]

107. I'd like to take this opportunity to go on record saying that I intend to BUY my next dog

from a local breeder. Probably the same guy my current Lab came from, or maybe the one we got our previous Lab from.

We didn't buy either dog for showing or hunting--just for pets. And what fantastic family members they became. We love them like our kids.

We bought them from the breeders because we had friends who had bought from them and loved their Labs. Word-of-mouth referrals are always the best.

We have also had pound pups and will probably get another one to go with our Lab, two adopted kitties, one bunny, and one snake.

I don't feel in the least guilty about buying a Lab from a breeder who obviously cares for and doesn't abuse his/her dogs. All the ranting about puppy mills and dogs being bred for beauty and all the other asinine, hysterical wailing from the anti-puppy mill Nazis hasn't swayed me one iota. Just showed me that there are always going to be people who think they know what everybody else should be doing and have no tolerance for dissenting opinions--because they are the experts and they are right and nobody else knows jack.

I agree that puppy mills need to be regulated, at a minimum, and are not an enterprise I would support. But I knew that before I read all the crazy ranting on this thread. Maybe if some of you fanatics would just present your case and let people decide, instead of acting like you are the ONE and ONLY source of reliable information, you might actually win some converts.

Oh, and the overpopulation problem is due to irresponsible owners. People who do not have their animals neutered are the problem. That will only be remedied when local governments require spaying and neutering.

[Muttocracy]

112. "If you breed, rescue; if you don't rescue, don't breed" and a waiting list

They have a waiting list before they even breed a litter, plus taking dogs back, contracts, home visits, small # of litters, dogs with working titles, honest and open about genetic testing and keep themselves current, and they RESCUE on top of breeding.

I'll never get anything but a mutt from a shelter or rescue, or maybe a purebred rescue, but some of the most dedicated rescuers I've known were breeders or former breeders.

[Waiting For Everyman]

113. My last pet was a feral black and white tuxedo kitten (when found).

Coolest cat I ever had, and there were many over the years (some dogs too). That cat was a genius and hilarious, and physically talented in odd ways too (not to mention very beautiful). One example: from sitting calmly at the bottom of a curved stairway sometimes, it would suddenly take the mad notion into its head to tear off running up the flight of stairs so fast that after the first ten steps, he was running UP ON THE WALL banking around the curve (about 4 feet high), and then back onto the stairs to the top! Funniest thing imaginable! He looked like a luge sledder in the Olympics. His name was Top Cat (after the '60s cartoon) and we called him T.C.

We nursed him through a severe illness he had when found, but he had kidney problems from it which eventually killed him 8 years later. That was a pretty long lifetime though, considering he wasn't expected to live the night when my son found him (as a young teenager at the local convenience store on his skateboard - this poor little starved thing staggered out from behind a dumpster and latched onto him - of all people to pick from those who were there - what's funny is, my son was not at all the "softie" compassionate type, but the kitty chose well because it got rescued; I figured any cat that could win over my son, had my vote).

I'd like to have a pet again now, but not until my home's secure from threat of foreclosure. I don't want to put an animal through getting adopted and then not being able to take care of it, if I have to move somewhere petless. Hopefully soon, if I can solve that problem in the next few months though.

Anyway just felt like sharing 'cause I'm a tuxedo kitty fan too.

[yewberry]

115. Though I'm one of the quieter "kooks" on the board,

I've gotta chime in.

I have a lot of difficulty with the notion of "responsible" breeders. I've lived with purebred dogs; I've lived with mutts. My husband is a dog trainer. My experience with dogs is probably wider than most.

I've personally fished a bag of dead puppies out of a pond.
I've personally peeled the carcasses of purebreds up off of the office floor and put them into the freezer, for no real reason other than the fact that the owner no longer wanted to care for them.
I've personally fostered biters.
I've personally rescued a purebred who was accused of biting, but who was actually abused.
I've personally lived a lifetime with a dangerous "liberated" rottie.


I've personally lived in a home with "responsible" breeders who:
*Sticks to one or two breeds
*Usually has no more than one or two litters a year in their homes
*Limits each bitch to about three litters in their entire life
*Probably raises pups in the house so they are socialized from birth
*Allows prospective owners to view kennels if kennels are used
*Many don't ship pups
*Doesn't sell to anyone without interviewing first
*Charges enough to BARELY cover costs. A pure bred dog won't be less than $1000. Sometimes if a pup isn't best representation of breed or has issues it'll be sold for less but responsible breeders fully disclose all issues
*Generally insist on spaying of animals. Sometimes they stipulate a pup be allowed to breed once
*Have taken time to study pedigrees

Despite all of that, that breeder, like all "responsible" breeders, added to the problem of the massive population of unwanted animals. Sure, she found good homes for "her" dogs...but really, if she hadn't bred those dogs, those good homes would have found other dogs. It's that simple--there are already too many dogs (and enough purebreds, thanks very much) for all of the available homes.

We as a country kill millions of unwanted dogs and cats annually. What is "responsible" about creating more of them? Why shouldn't people resent or fight against a system that continues to escalate a massive overpopulation problem?

[Maru Kitteh]

123. Thanks for this post! You are absolutely 100% correct.

There is NO SUCH THING as a "responsible" breeder. The most humane breeder can only create more suffering.

[KittyWampus]

126. Just like parents who have kids create more suffering by bringing yet MORE

children into an already over-populated earth rather than adopt babies already born.

All because they want a kid with their own DNA and shared biological traits.