Nissan workers who voted down UAW representation taking days off without pay to avoid layoffs

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2008/12/14/Southern_auto_workers_resent_bailout/UPI-35751229266421/

Southern auto workers resent bailout

Published: Dec. 14, 2008 at 9:53 AM

<snip>The GOP senators, led by Bob Corker of Tennessee, demanded unionized Detroit autoworkers take pay cuts to level their wages with those earned by non-union counterparts in Southern plants owned by Japanese automakers Nissan, Honda and Toyota. That position has strong support among the workers at those plants, The Washington Post (NYSE:WPO) reported Sunday.

"Over here, we're taking days off without pay to keep the company going, but the unions for the Big Three aren't willing to do that," Kathy Ward, 54, who has worked 27 years at the Nissan plant in Smyrna, Tenn., told the newspaper. "Everyone has to give a little in times like these."

Union opponents "use the phrase, 'You don't want the Yankees telling you what to do,'" a Southern organizer told the Post.

http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/04/companies/nissan/

UAW loses Nissan vote

October 4, 2001: 7:03 a.m. ET

NEW YORK (CNNfn) - The United Autoworkers Union has failed in its attempt to organize a Nissan Motor Co. plant in Smyrna, Tenn., as hourly workers there voted better than 2-to-1 against representation.

The vote concluded late Wednesday was yet another unsuccessful attempt by auto unions to gain a beachhead at the 16 car assembly plants opened in North America by Japanese or German automakers.

Nissan (NSANY: Research, Estimates), Japan's No. 2 automaker behind Toyota Motor Corp. (TM: Research, Estimates) and just ahead of Honda Motor Co. (HMC: up $1.87 to $68.50, Research, Estimates), said the vote should be a clear sign to the union that employees at the plant outside of Nashville did not want to be unionized. The company's statement said the vote was 3,103 to reject the union, and 1,486 for representation, and marked the fourth attempt in 12 years to win representation. snip

The union issued a statement accusing management of using pressure tactics such as surveillance of union supporters and threats to close the plant in order to win the election. It vowed to continue its efforts in the future.

"Obviously we're disappointed that the UAW supporters at Nissan came up short in this election after working so hard and standing up to Nissan's intense anti-union campaign," said a statement from Stephen Yokich, the union's president.

[deaniac21]

1. Unions are becoming a harder sell all of the time. The

membership rolls have been steadily declining since the 1960's.

[gorfle]

12. What can a Union actually do for me?

What can a Union actually do for a worker anyway?

They got us all the fair labor laws we enjoy today, but what purpose do they serve now?

[LanternWaste]

15. Collective bargaining

"They got us all the fair labor laws we enjoy today, but what purpose do they serve now?"

Maintain and act as a watchdog for those fair labor laws-- even as recently as 1993, the Union was the catalyst for the Family Medical Leave Act. So we can easily see that the Unions are still fighting for fair labor practices (unless of course, one thinks contemporary labor is just, righteous, and fair as it currently stands...)

Collective bargaining.

Unions enable due process in the workplace and facilitate a strong worker voice in the broader community and even in politics-- a counterbalance, if you will to any unchecked powers and/or abuses of the employer.

As one who perceives the person to be more imporant than the market, the above, off-the-cuff listings are quite important to me, however, the mileage of a cheap-labor conservative or a Libertarian may differ drastically...

[gorfle]

19. That sounds great!

Do you think I could make more money if I joined a Union? And if my employer tries to lay me off, can they stop it? If I join a Union, does everyone in your company have to belong or can you be a "Union of one" and still get Union benefits? What are the requirements to join one? How do you know which one to join?

[LanternWaste]

21. would be better answered by your local union rep I imagine.

"Do you think I could make more money..."

That question, as with the others would be better and more fully answered by your local union rep I imagine. :shrug:

[gorfle]

23. Is there a list of Unions somewhere?

I work in engineering. I did a Google search on "engineering labor union" but nothing much came up on the first page.

I found a reference to Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace here:

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/10/28/boeing-reaches-deal-with-machinists-is-its-engineering-union-ne/

But I don't work in Aerospace. I design computers.

[gizmo1979]

30. doesn't matter.I'm UAW

But I make Faucets.

[gorfle]

34. That's great!

Maybe that other engineering organization will take me in if there is nothing more applicable to my field.

Why don't more white collar workers Unionize? It seems to me that thought is the most transportable and easily off-shoreable commodity of all. Engineering jobs are constantly going overseas. It would seem like a good Unionization candidate if the Unions can help stanch the flow of jobs leaving the country.

[gorfle]

39. Another question

If you go on strike, what keeps the company from just hiring someone else to do your job?

[CANDO]

49. Public pressure

Shaming the employer for looking for wage slaves. The more people belong to unions, the less there are who will cross your picket line. I am a 19 year Teamster truck driver and our labor contract specifies that I do not have to cross a picket line to deliver or pick up freight.

[DainBramaged]

74. I think you know all of the answers, you just think being contrary is cuet

[gizmo1979]

75. Nothing.

Just trust,and peoples fear of being a scab.

[LanternWaste]

54. You design computer-- bless your little heart!

You design computer-- bless your little heart!

I'm sure if you diligently applied yourself, you could locate a union that would accommodate your position and career much better than I.

That is, if it's actually important to you. However, if you're looking merely to score a few rather undramatic rhetorical points, more power to ya, chief!

It's your time to waste...

[gorfle]

24. I think I'll contact these folks

http://www.ifpte.com/index.html

They seem mostly related to ship building but maybe they can point me in the right direction.

[gorfle]

20. And what about retirement benefits?

Does the Union provide any retirement benefits?

[LanternWaste]

22. I imagine it depends on which union.

I imagine it depends on which union.

As I live in Texas and don't work for the state, my knowledge of unions lies merely on the macro- rather than the micro-scale.

[CANDO]

50. Depends on your labor contract

Usually there is a pension set up in the contract language and is administered through the union in a multi-employer contract and through the company in a single company contract. In both cases there are labor and management trustees who hire investment professionals to handle the investment decisions as well as hiring auditing services to make things transparent to all.

[CANDO]

48. Help you keep all those fair labor laws!

You think they would exist in perpetuity?

[guitar man]

68. They can provide you with a contract

something most workers will never have in the absence of collective bargaining. Unless you're a high and mighty exec or something, you can be tossed out on your ass at any time for no reason at all with nothing since you don't have a contract (depending on what state you live in.

With a contract, life is better as a worker, trust me, been on both sides of that fence and I know which one I like better.

[deaniac21]

44. .

http://www.publicpurpose.com/lm-unn2003.htm

[1gobluedem]

2. Union opponents "use the phrase, 'You don't want the Yankees telling you what to do,'"

Way to shoot yourselves in the foot, workers....:crazy:

[nichomachus]

5. They'd rather take their orders from the Japanese n/t

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. Megane owns about 45% of Nissan

:rofl:

Now my 'real' name is Adrienne. I'm partly French and a huge French everything lover! :rofl:

Ooooooooh - I betcha they don't know who they REALLY work for . . . :rofl: A bunch of 'FRENCH' people. Ha ha!

Now, that would be the way to get them to ago against The Man! :rofl: Tell them his name is Pierre and he drinks wine and they'll unionize toute suite! :rofl:

[Dr.Phool]

69. They don't want to improve their lot in life.

They want to drag everyone else down into the hole they're in.

[mitchum]

70. Stupid CRACKERS would rather take orders from their Japanese masters

That's because, despite all of the "rebel" talk, southern whites are actually very servile

[billybob537]

3. Forien cars aren't selling in this economy either.

You're just one step ahead of a layoff. Does it matter if your auto plant closes or lays you off? The Japanese owners still have the money and you're out of a job.

[deaniac21]

6. The foreign ones have slowed down too.

[ogneopasno]

4. You bastards...if you were organized, you wouldn't HAVE to "give a little"! For fuck's sake!

You really effing think that taking days off without pay keeps the company going? You fucking BELIEVE that? When is the company going to give back to you? Probably about the time they finish building a factory in China and they can take the outsourcing one step further. For crying out loud.

[NorCalDem]

8. Exactly.

Next month they'll get laid off finally instead of being "asked" to "take days off." Then they'll cry bloody murder. What they don't realize is that this THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN if they were unionized!

Eh, stupid ignorant people who learn to believe the lies that unions are always bad. Nevermind the 40 hour work week, or worker compensation, or health and safety regulations, or health insurance, or minimum wage, or child labor laws.... No, all that stuff came about naturally. Workers NEVER had to FIGHT for those rights, so we should just let unions die already, they're "outdated" in our "modern global economy"

/rolleyes...

[gorfle]

13. But what have you done for me lately?

Next month they'll get laid off finally instead of being "asked" to "take days off." Then they'll cry bloody murder. What they don't realize is that this THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN if they were unionized!

How does a Union stop layoffs?

Eh, stupid ignorant people who learn to believe the lies that unions are always bad. Nevermind the 40 hour work week, or worker compensation, or health and safety regulations, or health insurance, or minimum wage, or child labor laws.... No, all that stuff came about naturally. Workers NEVER had to FIGHT for those rights, so we should just let unions die already, they're "outdated" in our "modern global economy"

Unions definitely did a great thing getting our fair labor laws in place. But now, they are in place. What do Unions do now other than force companies to pay higher-than-market-value wages and benefits for their workers? It would seem to me if anything Unions would increase the labor costs to a company and thus hasten, not delay, layoffs. How does it work?

[NNN0LHI]

16. On January 5. 1914, Ford Motor Company announced the five-dollar, eight-hour day

Now keep in mind that five dollars a day was big money back in 1914. And Henry Ford did that on his own. Henry wasn't just generous though. He realized that if people were going to be able to purchase his products wages would have to increase. Thats why he did it.

Don

[NorCalDem]

26. /gasp Are you serious?!?

"Unions definitely did a great thing getting our fair labor laws in place. But now, they are in place. What do Unions do now other than force companies to pay higher-than-market-value wages and benefits for their workers? It would seem to me if anything Unions would increase the labor costs to a company and thus hasten, not delay, layoffs. How does it work?"

Are you serious?!? Please tell me you don't believe that $80/hr bullshit meme you see bantered about too? Are you fucking serious?!? The fact that you said unions force employers to pay "higher-than-market-value wages" with a straight face is laughable at best! Unless of course you happen to think line workers shouldnt' be able to support a family anymore because that would put them at a pay scale "higher than market value" (what the fuck is "market value" anyway? What they pay workers in China? How about Indonesia, do we need to compete with their "labor market" too?)

:yoiks:

You also said some BS about how since labor laws are already in place unions are no longer required. As if management will voluntarily continue giving out labor benefits without the presence of a union? wtf?!?

[gorfle]

40. Well...

Are you serious?!? Please tell me you don't believe that $80/hr bullshit meme you see bantered about too? Are you fucking serious?!? The fact that you said unions force employers to pay "higher-than-market-value wages" with a straight face is laughable at best!

I thought one of the main goals of Unions was to demand higher pay and if you don't get it, you stop working? This is right off of the SPEEA web page:

http://www.speea.org/organizing/benefits.html

"We all know that union-represented employees earn more than non-represented employees (the U.S. union wage premium is the highest of any country). "

When I read this it was my primary motivator for getting involved in a Union. Are you saying it isn't true?

You also said some BS about how since labor laws are already in place unions are no longer required. As if management will voluntarily continue giving out labor benefits without the presence of a union? wtf?!?

Of course not - this is why you have to have legislation passed to enshrine these rights.

[NorCalDem]

43. No, the main goal of unions is NOT to secure higher pay for

their employees at all costs. If they feel they are not being paid enough, then yes, they fight for higher pay. Unions serve MANY other functions aside from securing wages.

Also, just because legislation is written, doesn't mean it's necessarily followed and/or cannot be unwritten. Unions are JUST as important today as they were 100 years ago, and anyone that thinks otherwise is kidding themselves (or is willfully ignorant).

But on second thought, after seeing some of your anti-union post history, i'm not wasting anymore of my breath on you. If you have to ask what good is a union for on THIS board, then you're either being coy or you just don't get it...

[CANDO]

51. " higher than market value"

Well, let me just say that when the union and management negotiators sit down at the bargaining table with their respective "bean counters", they do indeed set the "MARKET VALUE". It is the non-union wages and benefits within a given industry which are "substandard" in value. Dear god almighty, the right-wing conservo-memes have really sunk in out there! In a non-union setting, the manager says "this is what it pays, take it or leave it". You think that represents the standard market value? How about a team of professional compensation experts representing both management and unions sitting in a room hammering out a deal? My money is on THAT scenario being indicative of the TRUE MARKET VALUE in that given industry. Both sides being represented by a team of professionals.

[csziggy]

29. Fair labor laws are getting eroded - and US labor laws are not as generous as in many countries

Many people are conned into working overtime with promises of "comp time" - I cannot name one single person who ever actually was able to use the months of "comp time" they were promised. I know of one person who worked 80 hour weeks for over a year with the promise of an extended maternity leave when she got pregnant. She was not even able to take the normal maternity leave and had to go back to work less than a month after she had her baby.

People are not allowed to take the specified breaks or time for meals. Cost of living increases are a thing of the past. Real wages are effectively less than they were ten or fifteen years ago. Insurance is rapidly being lost by many workers.

"Higher than market value wages and benefits"? If all of the companies paid a real living wage and gave workers decent benefits, maybe our economy would not be stalled!

We don't need to get rid of labor unions - we need more of them and need them to be stronger!

[NorCalDem]

32. I cannot overstress how important your last point is!!!

We don't need to get rid of labor unions - we need more of them and need them to be stronger!

100% agreed, although Gorfle will come into to tell you that Unions are the root of all evil and that they ensure workers are paid too much :D

Lolololol, hahaha...

[Doremus]

58. Gorfle's the one on the right.

[Two Americas]

36. that is the extreme right wing point of view

Mouthpieces from the right wing think tanks are all over the media peddling this line.

[Jax]

41. Standard for this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4662706#4663048
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3616980#3617928

[Bill McBlueState]

64. that's a common misconception, for some reason

Unions don't "force" companies to do anything. Both a union rep and a management rep have to sign a contract, so the parties are jointly responsible for any perceived flaws in the contract.

[nichomachus]

11. The idiots really think it's a two-way street n/t

[Nederland]

31. How do you figure?

The economy is bad and cars aren't selling--THAT'S why they have to take days off.

Or do you somehow believe that being a member of a union makes you immune to economic realities?

[ogneopasno]

46. Believe me, I know that being a union member means you're hit with economic realities just like

other people. But being in a union can help ensure that the company spreads the hurt around, not just on the rank and file.

[Nederland]

55. That's not what I'm seeing in this recession

What I'm seeig right now is that workers in union shops are getting hit harder than workers in non-union shops.

[ogneopasno]

56. Really? How do you figure?

[Nederland]

57. Read the news

The unionized big three are on the brink of bankruptcy. The non-unionized auto industry in the south is suffering a slow down, but no one is talking about Toyota going under...

[Kalyke]

59. But Nissan is down 42 percent (the plant is Nissan in the OP).

And Ford is only down 31 percent since this time last year.

So... I do think it's a bit more than a "slow down."

[Nederland]

60. We are not talking about stock market prices

We are talking about workers being laid off.

[Kalyke]

65. I'm not talking about stock market prices, either.

I'm talking about sales.

Sales of Nissan are down 42 percent from 2007.

When sales are down, workers are laid off.

[Nederland]

71. Look

If you think that there have been fewer layoffs at GM, Ford and Chrysler over the past 10 years than Toyota, Honda and Hyundai you are clueless. The facts are that union workers these days have less job security than non-union workers.

http://edgehopper.com/what-toyota-knows-that-gm-doesnt/

[Kalyke]

73. Look (since you don't seem to have a clue what I'm saying):

I was not arguing who has more job security. I was pointing out that, since Nissan is down 42 percent from 2007 in sales, that employees will get laid off. Period. Ford is down 31 percent - quite a bit less - and has had lay offs. There is no reason to think Nissan won't since it's down further.

My comment had nothing to do with unions or the stock market - it has to do with supply and demand. Nissan sales are down and will continue to be down until the economy recovers - which will be longer than a "slow period."

I live in Tennessee. I hate foreign cars. I don't like that my state gave them tons of tax breaks. I think workers who are against unions are stupid - but none of that has to do with the fact that ALL car companies are suffering and these people in Tennessee at the Nissan plant PROBABLY will get laid off, despite their taking days off and the like.

[Nederland]

76. My mistake

I thought you were disagreeing with my assertion that non-union shops are better at protecting the jobs of workers then union shops.

[nini]

33. unions have little control over the economy in general though

we are in unique times here with the economy ready to collapse. Unions cannot stop layoffs if a company does not have the means to pay its employees.

I used to be a shop steward for the Postal Clerks union and am an avid union supporter - however to say workers don't sometime have to give a bit is ridiculous. The issue is employee sacrifices should not be the FIRST and ONLY option on the table. If everyone cuts back to save overall jobs then it's acceptable.

Unions are necessary but they also have to be smart in times like these.

[ogneopasno]

47. I agree with you that it is not the first, best and only option.

My (admittedly gut) response stems from the fact that it doesn't sound like Nissan is having its managers take any time off, or that health care is paid during that time off, and so on.

I in no way said that being in a union protects you from being laid off.

[nini]

53. If everyone sacrifices then I'm ok with it

If the execs are sunning themselves in the Caymans.. hell no.

[slutticus]

52. A lot of tech companies are doing this right now.

I know that Cisco, HP and Dell are trying it. Apparently, shutting Cisco down for 5 days can save quite a bit.


But only time will tell if it works.

[BOSSHOG]

7. Those old conservative family values are so heartwarming

Take less pay. Obey the foreign car company. You don't need health care for you family. Unions bad. Listen to right wing radio. Support a political party. Party first!!!

[NNN0LHI]

9. And you don't need a retirement benefit either

Just take this 401k that may go up in smoke just as you are getting too old to work any more.

Don

[BOSSHOG]

10. Proud patriotic Christian Americans

don't need no pension. We'll just "believe" everything will be alright. Just like they teach us on the radio and from the pulpit.

[malaise]

14. They'll change their minds when their plants close

as they will.

[KamaAina]

17. Taking days off without pay to avoid layoffs?

Isn't that kind of like, you know, a layoff? :shrug:

[sarcasmo]

25. It's a free off, no unemployment just a day off. Dummies, what's next, we will work for free.

[Obamanaut]

27. Not necessarily. It may be something like working 8 hours per

day for four days vice five. If an organization has, say 1000 workers, that saved 8 hours per week per worker adds up to a fair sized chunk of employees.

[NorCalDem]

28. Shhh...

don't tell the workers that

[boomerbust]

35. Well, here is one Yankee

Who told these Rebels what to do.

[Mudoria]

61. Didn't this guy have a bad experience at the Ford Theater?

[boomerbust]

67. AHHH !

Another Tobacco Road asassin lover.

[QC]

62. Here's another Yankee from much closer to your neck of the woods.

He shared your fondness for making broad brush slams against his fellow Americans.

[boomerbust]

72. Wow!

I can see the Obama Lincoln comparison really brings the haters out of the woodwork. The fact that you take that comment as a broadbrush tells me everything that I need to know.

[leftofthedial]

37. you think they are hurting now?

just wait until the UAW is really dead.

[suffragette]

38. This is the same short-sighted and selfish thinking

that the Republicans have promoted with regard to taxes, healthcare and Social Security.

They bought into the idea that they'd be fine off without a union during good times and would be able to pocket money that would be paid to dues. They similarly bought into the idea that all things collective are bad and those that are "individual" are good.

Now that times are no longer that good, they turn their resentment toward those who literally "paid their dues' and are therefore in better shape.

They wanted to (and thought they would, whether that actually was the case or not) reap more rewards, but now that there are consequences, they are lashing out instead of wanting to think about how they could have been wrong in the first place.

[ContinentalOp]

42. Fucking idiots -nt-

[knixphan]

63. to the 'can I make more money' question:

In my craft, the 'floor' is negotiated collectively ('scale') for each position. (aka 'you cannot pay any LESS than this amount')

An individual whose skill and personal value exceeds the average can always negotiate a personal wage that is 'above-scale', if the employer is willing to deal.

However, the scale is still valuable in this case, as the starting point for said negotiations, and also insures that an employer can't arbitrarily 'sweat-shop' a fellow co-worker.

Rising tide - all boats, etc. I was a Pres of a local for 5 years, and fought hard to protect scale rates for my baseline brothers and sisters, even though I was personally paid well overscale, due to my personal negotiations.

[Romulox]

66. They'll turn on one another when things get a bit tougher...rats always do. nt