Metric System. I know there are more pressing issues, but do you think Obama...

[El Supremo]

might finally let us go on it?



We do need to be part of the civilized world again.

[Subdivisions]

1. It was a metric mishap that marred the success of a Mars orbiter

NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

The units mismatch prevented navigation information from transferring between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in at Lockheed Martin in Denver and the flight team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Lockheed Martin helped build, develop and operate the spacecraft for NASA. Its engineers provided navigation commands for Climate Orbiter's thrusters in English units although NASA has been using the metric system predominantly since at least 1990.

No one is pointing fingers at Lockheed Martin, said Tom Gavin, the JPL administrator to whom all project managers report.

-snip-

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

[DuaneBidoux]

65. Lockheed still had more blame than not. Even in the U.S. serious science is done in metric.

While it might have been a screwup for NASA to assume that Lockheeds units were metric in science, even in the US, it is the burden of scientists to state when they are not using metric.

[meegbear]

2. And abandon Myanmar and Liberia?

NEVER!!

[GodlessBiker]

3. Hey, as long as Burma is still with us...

[Captain Hilts]

4. Canada does it half-assed. They use pounds and ounces.

Litres, kilometers and meters are fine by me.

I want to keep Farenheit and pounds.

[Oregone]

6. Well, in grocery stores, pounds and onces sit right next to grams and kilos...

So, Im always doing calculations a mile a minute here. Its one of the tougher things to adjust to since moving. Driving speed adjustments were easy though (which is all metric).

[SidDithers]

7. Lunchmeat in grams, milk and gas in litres...

people in inches and pounds, distances in kilometres, temperature in both celsius and farenheit.

It's still a bit of a mixed bag, but that's primarily because of the giant, non-metric country to our south.

Sid

[Horse with no Name]

50. I prefer kilograms

I only weigh half as much.

[PVnRT]

53. 2/3 as much, actually

[wuushew]

57. untrue

1 pound = 0.45359237 kilograms

[PVnRT]

58. Got miles/kilometers mixed up with pounds/kilograms

[Believing Is Art]

5. This would be met with a lot of resistance. Even from

the people you'd least expect. Back when I was an idealistic ungrad, I didn't understand why we didn't use metric. But after working in the field some, I can see how ingrained the English system really is. Switching would probably cause more problems than it would solve. People need to keep their units straight, regardless of which system they're working in. I'm in the aerospace/aviation industry btw.

[depakid]

24. "People need to keep their units straight, regardless of which system they're working in."

Especially when flying to Mars. :o



NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

The units mismatch prevented navigation information from transferring between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in at Lockheed Martin in Denver and the flight team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Lockheed Martin helped build, develop and operate the spacecraft for NASA. Its engineers provided navigation commands for Climate Orbiter's thrusters in English units although NASA has been using the metric system predominantly since at least 1990.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

[anigbrowl]

8. It would cost a lot of money, which is a good reason to do it

'Let's refit America'. The imperial measurement system is stupid and is holding back American industry. dump the Farenheit scale too. Per Wikipedia...

"According to Fahrenheit himself in an article he wrote in 1724,<2> his scale by based on three reference points of temperature. The zero point is determined by placing the thermometer in a mixture of ice, water, and ammonium chloride, a salt. This is a type of frigorific mixture. The mixture automatically stabilizes its temperature at 0 °F. He then put an alcohol or mercury thermometer into the mixture and let the liquid in the thermometer descend to its lowest point. The second point is the 32 degree found by putting the thermometer in still water as ice is just forming on the surface.<3> The third point, the 96 degree, was the level of the liquid in the thermometer when held in the mouth or under the armpit. Fahrenheit noted that, using this scale, mercury boils at around 600 degrees.

Later work by other scientists observed that water boils about 180 degrees higher than the freezing point and decided to redefine the degree slightly to make it exactly 180 degrees higher.<2> It is for this reason that normal body temperature is 98.6 on the revised scale (whereas it was 96 on Fahrenheit's original scale).<4>

According to a letter Fahrenheit wrote to his friend Herman Boerhaave,<5> his scale built on the work of Ole Rømer, whom he had met earlier. In Rømer’s scale, the two fixed reference points are that brine also freezes at 0 degrees and water boils at 60 degrees. He observed that, on this scale, water freezes at 7.5 degrees. Fahrenheit multiplied each value by four in order to eliminate the fractions and increase the granularity of the scale (resulting in 30 and 240 degrees). He then re-calibrated his scale between the freezing point of water and normal human body temperature (which he observed to be 96 degrees); he adjusted the scale so that the melting point of ice would be 32 degrees, so that 64 intervals would separate the two, allowing him to mark degree lines on his instruments by simply bisecting the interval six times (since 64 is 2 to the sixth power).<6>"

Jesus H. Christ. The Centigrade scale runs from zero to 100. Zero is the temperature at which pure water freezes, and 100 is the temperature at which it boils. That was easy, wasn't it?

[El Supremo]

9. All right! A MPA. Metrics Progress Administration.

Sound great. Employ people to change all the signs and markings.

[Johonny]

10. The only place I dislike using the metric system is

daily weather forecast. The Fahrenheit scale is actually kind of more convenient for day to day temperatures.

[anigbrowl]

11. You'll get used to centigrade.

0 degrees: water freezes. 100 degrees: water boils. 25 degrees: T-shirt.

It's really, really simple.

[anonymous171]

12. Kelvin is easier anyways.

[Johonny]

18. not really for day to day use

in a lab it's fine at home I like knowing the temperature on a scale that has more degrees between numbers. In K or C there's not enough to know if it's ok to put slippers on or not.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. You think you can tell the difference between, say, 9 and 10 degrees Celsius?

You're fooling yourself.

[SidDithers]

61. It's always OK to put slippers on...

:)

Sid

[Edweird]

13. I hope not. The metric system sucks.

[Fumesucker]

17. Without writing it down or using a calculator..

Subtract 7/32 from 3/4..

I was a carpenter for a good while and I can do it but the great majority of Americans can't, even if they fully understand fractions, which a lot of them don't.

Metric measurement calculations are much easier to do in your head than what we use in the USA.

How many inches in a mile?

How many centimeters in a kilometer?

The second question is far easier to answer, you just move the decimal point.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. Yeah, but then i can't

show off my mad fraction subtraction skills :)

[dysfunctional press]

21. "how many inches in a mile?"

who cares? how often does that really come up for the average person?

[anigbrowl]

29. How about 'how many miles per gallon'?

I'll give you the mpg and engine size of two different cars, you have to work out the efficiency index. Or so many many other questions.

[dysfunctional press]

35. that's fine- that's why t.i. makes calculators, and ticonderoga makes pencils...

go for it.

[PVnRT]

52. How is kilometers per liter easier to use?

[anigbrowl]

62. Because everything is based on pwers of 10

1000 meters in s kilometer, 1000 cc in a liter, and so on. Same way it's convenient to think of your income in thousands.

[PVnRT]

73. That doesn't explain how it's an easier number to deal with

My car gets about 39 miles/gallon on the interstate. That would be 16.6 km/L. The fact that metric is based on multiples of 10 really doesn't factor into that at all.

[anigbrowl]

74. Sure it does

I can look up the engine size in CC, which is a metric measurement. Most motorcycles with a number in the name, for example - the number is the engine size to the nearest round number, eg 'XYZ650' = 650cc. From that, it becomes trivial to work out the efficiency of the engine. Also, since liters and money are both based on powers of 10, estimating things like annual fuel consumption become trivially easy. Me, I like being able to do my math in my head instead of needing to whip out pencil and paper.

[Edweird]

25. "How many inches in a mile?" Other than for trivia, who gives a shit?

I am 6' feet tall. That has meaning. People can identify with it. If I say I am 1.8288 meters tall, that is bizarre and without reference. 5' is 1.5240 meters. Utterly meaningless and without relevant graduation. It's also goofy. If there was a point to changing, other than 'herd mentality' it would be different. There isn't. It sucks. I don't give a crap about portable decimal points.

Oh, and for the record, I worked my way up to VP of a General Contracting firm. I know my way around a tape measure.

[anigbrowl]

31. Hah, you're funny.

'That has meaning' - give me a break, you're just used to it. You might as well say 'that guy is two meters tall - 6 foot 8and a half inches is too arbitrary'. I'll tell you what the point is - increased productivity, fewer mistakes, much bigger market for both supplies and customers (if you manufacture anything sold by length/weight/volume).

[PVnRT]

51. 17/32

And, yeah, the number of inches in a mile is as useless to know as the number of centimeters in a mile. That's like asking how many millimeters are in a parsec.

[anigbrowl]

71. You'd be surprised

Consider surveying and map-making for example, including things like satellite photography. OR architecture, although nowadays you can use virtual computer environments rather than building models. but they're areas where you need to a lot of scale conversions. Or suppose you work for a food company, and you're trying to scale your tasty new recipe up to industrial quantities for manufacture. Or...well I could go on and on.

As was pointed out, scientists have been doing things in metric (or technically, SI) for years because it's just so much more convenient. In much of the world, industry and the technical professions have deduced that they're on to something.

[zagging]

56. I've never known a carpenter to use anything less than 1/8

as the lowest serviceable fraction. A cabinetmaker, maybe, but a carpenter? I've know some to scream if they get something like 5/16 thrown at them.

[anigbrowl]

28. Convincing argument you have there. 'It sucks'. I'm overwhelmed.

[Greyhound]

47. Once again, we are in agreement.

Surely a sign of "the end times".
"rofl:

[Romulox]

76. Agree. Metric system is poorly scaled to the human environment.

For example, the metric system needs a unit larger than the centimeter, but smaller than the meter.

[question everything]

14. Sure. He keeps talking about resoring science to the glory days

of... pre-Reagan so why not?

[HereSince1628]

15. Forget metric, let's go straight to S.I. n.t.

[El Supremo]

16. That's fine. That's what I think as metric anyway.

Hectares and all.

[harun]

22. He should, I would.

[dysfunctional press]

23. i hope not. at this point, i'd prefer the u.s. wait until i'm gone...

and there are a LOT of us in that group...and we vote.

[anigbrowl]

32. Then we'll be waiting forever, as others will make the same argument. You owuld change your vote ove

You Americans. And you wonder why we Europeans get that smug attitude sometimes. It really isn't that difficult, you know.

[dysfunctional press]

36. well- you are correct about one thing...

that smug attitude isn't really that difficult for you.

i grew up learning the same weights and measures i've used my entire life- and personally, i'm not going to stop using them- i do a lot of home remodelling, and i'll continue to use my standard tape measure, and buy my lumber by the foot.

if they start dispensing gas in liters- fine...i'll still fill my tank, or put in 10 or 20 dollars worth, or whatever.

the places where it matters- international trade, medicine and scientific endeavors(for the most part, eh nasa?)- the changes have pretty much all taken place- what difference is it to the rest of the world what system regular americans use to do their own day-to-day personal measuring? :shrug:

[PVnRT]

48. If Europeans get smug over a fucking measurement system

that speaks more about Europeans than Americans.

[anigbrowl]

69. It's payback for years of American triumphalism over giant everything

Seriously though, the rest of the world does wonder why America persists in using these measurements. It looks really 19th century to most people, the way UK currency looked quaint before decimalization (they used to denominate everything in guineas, pounds, shillings and pence, with 200 pence to the pound).

[applegrove]

26. We've had the metric system in Canada since I was a kid. And it is no big deal.

We still do height & weight in the old way. Mileage and science in the metric way. Weather is metric. Basically anything you use every day has gone metric cause it is easy to learn if you follow measurements daily.

[MrSlayer]

27. I certainly hope not.

I'm perfectly fine with feet and inches and ounces. Fuck that metric bullshit.

[anigbrowl]

33. So all the arguments against the metric system so far amount to 'I'm lazy'. Not impressive...

[MrSlayer]

37. I don't care if it's impressive.

I don't care for the metric system. I'm not interested in learning a new way when the old way is perfectly fine. Sometimes leaving well enough alone is the way to go.

[anigbrowl]

72. Would you like some horse with that buggy?

I don't mind if you want to keep using what you're sued to, but I think it's time to establish the metric system here as well so that younger people can grow up with it, and be more economically competitive in the future.

The old way is not 'perfectly fine'. It's actually pretty illogical, and costs us a lot of money in lost productivity every year.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. WOW Madagascar joined the wold FINALLY?

He should, for competitive reasons, the same way it was done in Canada would work

[anigbrowl]

34. Also: it would make US manufacturing more competitive

Think about it.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

38. What is this "US manufacturing" you speak of? n/t

[PVnRT]

49. How?

[anigbrowl]

64. Well, you wouldn't have to convert dimensions when buying or selling parts, for example.

[wuushew]

66. You would also enjoy greater economies of scale in parts

the adaptation of metric parts and fittings in automobiles is a good example. Still need 9/16 socket for spark plugs though.

[Blue_Tires]

39. but if we adopt metric measurements, we'll have to adopt the metric alphabet, too!

[yurbud]

40. how many kilograms are there to a stone? or a dime bag?

[anigbrowl]

67. Approximately 7.2kg and 3.5 grams

When I lived in Amsterdam I just bought my weed by the gram, If you look at your food packaging, it's all labeled in metric already, as well as imperial*. Some companies (Coca-Cola co I think) already standardized on metric a while back and sell in multiples of a liter.

Strangely, although people refer to the older measurements as 'english' or 'imperial', they're not, always. In the UK, a pint is 568ml, in the US, it's 473ml. This is one reason to drink in Irish bars, as they often use bigger glasses. I'm not sure why this difference exists. Pounds, on the other hand, are the same.

[yurbud]

75. aren't illegal drugs measured in kilos already? that would be a good way to hook younger generation

on metric system.

[ima_sinnic]

41. I think the answer is clear after reading this thread: ignorance, as usual, will rule

As a biologist, I love the metric system. It makes soooo much more sense than the "English" system and is sooo much easier to work with and understand.

But people grow up with something and think it is "better" and "easier" just because it's familiar and they're too lazy to learn anything else, especially something that would align us with the rest of the world. heaven forbid THAT.

[charlie]

44. Yeah, it's absurd

Hey, you guys! Do you want a simple base-10 system keyed off a single unit?

NO! Gimme ounces, pints, quarts, and gallons, baby! And while you're at it, lemme know if we're talking about the ounce-weight or ounce-volume of your Pepsi! Or whether we're measuring miles on land or sea!

Yoo-SA! USA! USA!

[ipfilter]

78. Balderdash! I suppose next you're going to say

measuring smallish quantities in fractions of teaspoons and tablespoons is inferior to grams.

[Oak2004]

42. I think it's not practical for the US to do it cold turkey

But we could go dual-system very easily. Simply require that everything be labeled in both systems (road speeds and distances included.

We're effectively edging towards that right now -- who here doesn't understand what they're buying when they buy a 2 liter bottle of cola? We all "get" what a liter is because we've seen liters on a daily basis. If we see 70 km/hr or 14 degrees Celsius or 500 grams every day, we'll universally understand what those measurements amount to, as well.

After a decade or two of dual labeling/dual use, it will be much more practical to make the switch.

[Greyhound]

54. That's what killed it the first time, "cold turkey" as you call it, is the best way to do it.

In general, people hate change and they will whine and cry and complain until they realize they've been using it for some time and nothing in their life has really changed.

"About an inch" becomes "a couple of centimeters", "give me a pound" becomes "I need about half a kilo", and so on. In the very short-term, gas stations will rip off customers because liquid equivalents are the hardest mental conversion and a couple extra cents per/liter is a lot for them, but competition between stations will force that out in short order.

Hell, just going to the IUPAC naming convention would make this worthwhile, and chemistry students would rejoice.

[anigbrowl]

68. I dunno about that...they went dual system over in Europe and it was OK

Most of continental Europe had been using the metric system for longer, but in the UK and Ireland they used both on the road signs etc. for the longest time, accomodating both older and younger people. Last time I was over there pretty much everything was switched apart from buying beer by the pint in a bar, which people are sentimental about. It's definitely doable and kept the complaints manageable.

Yeah, one does need to protect against price gouging, but as has been pointed out in other threads a lot of manufacturers have been quietly trimming the size of packaging at the supermarket anyway and it raises surprisingly little fuss. I'm thinking that switching to Metric is almost inevitably a Democratic policy, because such non-issues are exactly the sort of things Republicans like to make into political footballs (ie emotional rather than substantive complaints).

[4lbs]

43. We already tried switching to the metric system during the Carter administration and it only served

to confuse the vast majority of Americans and garnered very little support from American businesses, especially grocery stores.

[mwei924]

45. Americans can't even find America on a map..

..you really think we, as a country, could handle converting to the metric system? We're already in the crapper at math. Total disaster. The streets would be a crazy zone.

[wuushew]

46. kick

:kick:

[AngryAmish]

55. If we allow that kids will be playig soccer in the schools

[anigbrowl]

70. Ha :-)

[IDemo]

59. Not as many may complain when the national speed limit is set to 90

90 kph = ~56 mph

[The2ndWheel]

60. Such a lack of diversity on that map

There are only two colors, and one is the same almost everywhere.

[DuaneBidoux]

63. This has been hurting our exports forever. I think it is an important issue.

Americans hate the metric system as long as they don't use it and love it when they start. Americans love the English system until they actually have to use it (something I try hard to avoid).

[GoneOffShore]

77. It would be nice -

Liters, liters will keep us together
When some sweet talking quart
Tries to drive us apart
Liters will keep us together.