Obama is clearly a brilliant politician, I think the Warren pick was deliberate calculation.

[Fumesucker]

There is nothing that makes Reichtards happier than angry libs, particularly when we are angry at our own.

Obama is a consummate politician, I have no doubt he anticipated the angry reaction to Warren by gays and their supporters on the left, he is using us to boost his cred with the Reichtards.

We are being used as pawns by someone who is ostensibly on our side.

Edited to add: Those who aren't bothered by the Warren pick keep telling those of us who are that this is "a chess game", well I agree with that and we are the pawns that are being played. If you are claiming Obama is playing chess with this then you think that Obama has correctly predicted the reactions of the parties involved.

Otherwise he is a shitty chess player and your "chess playing" argument goes out the window.

[Kahuna]

1. Nonsense. What you're suggesting is that he is being mean-spirited...

Obama is not mean-spirited. So try to come up with a scenario that matches his true character. Not the character you have contrived.

[Fumesucker]

4. Obama is above all a politician..

Possibly the best one I've seen in my fairly long lifetime, I don't buy for a second that he didn't see the reaction to Warren coming a mile away.

[lapfog_1]

7. I think they thought it would rile some, but not to the extent that it has.

and THEY made a mistake (I doubt that Obama though much about this at ALL, given the other things that are occupying his time). They probably ran the name by him and he IS friends with Rick, so it was a go.

Easy mistake to make.

Had he THOUGHT about it... linked it in with Prop HATE, he might well have said something like "Invite him to breakfast, but use someone else for the invocation"

I really don't think he thought about it all that much.

[Fumesucker]

10. Warren is as offensive to us as David Duke would be to blacks..

Obama does *nothing* without a reason.

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." Franklin D. Roosevelt

[lapfog_1]

True, but OBama is FRIENDS with him. Has been for years.

Mentions their friendship in his book.

Friendship can blind him to political reality. Especially, apparently, when it comes to preachers.

He made a mistake with Wright and jettisoned him.

He is making another with Warren.

[Fumesucker]

17. Why isn't he friends with David Duke?

Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

[lapfog_1]

21. Huh?

Six of what, half of what?

You just jumped into the deep end there.

I don't know that he isn't friends with Duke. If they aren't, perhaps it's because they have never met?

Or are you saying that Obama can be friends with a homophobe but not a racist?

[Fumesucker]

29. Do you have friends that think you should not exist?

That's what Warren thinks about gays and what Duke thinks about blacks.

[lapfog_1]

31. More to the point, I have RELATIVES that think I should not exist.

Not to mention "friends" (ok, not close friends, but people I can hang with)

[Fumesucker]

32. You can pick your friends..

How you can "hang" with people who hate you so much they think you should not exist I have no clue.

Relatives are a different story, we have no way of picking them.

[lapfog_1]

33. Easy, we don't talk politics. Or religion.

So long as the conversation is left to weather and work and such, they can be quite congenial.

[Fumesucker]

37. Sounds like you are talking about coworkers..

Not my definition of "people I can hang with".

And in my experience, many fundies are totally unable to stay off the subject of religion for any appreciable length of time.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

54. You are right! You may not agree with me, but I'm going to say...

...I never liked Obama playing the politically correct "God game." Raised by an atheist, I've never viewed it as anything more than him politically savvy. That his alignments--first with preacher Wright and now preacher Warren--blow up in his face IMO are evidence of his willingness to politicize his religiocity. With designs on becoming president, he had to run away from his roots years ago. When Wright was exposed as a "Whack-a-doodle" (Marueen Dowd), Obama had to run away from him. Barack will roll a bowling ball down the center of the lane before he picks the proper congregation.

[meegbear]

13. So Obama did this to offend gays for political credence?

Then he should have David Duke do it so he could offend a larger segment of his base and gain even more credence.

[Fumesucker]

19. Duke offends Obama's sensibilities..

Obviously, Warren not so much.

[lapfog_1]

23. What makes you sure about that?

Do you personally know Mr. Obama?

Or are you making an assumption because Obama is half black?

[Fumesucker]

26. Show me the open racist on the inaugural program..

And I'll agree with you.

[lapfog_1]

27. Right, because all of his friends are in the inaugrual program.

False choice, improper subset usage.

[lapfog_1]

14. remove - dupe

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. picking someone who equates homosexuality to pedophilia, is mean spirited

[Orsino]

69. Coldly calculating, I think, rather than mean-spirited.

For all the hurt he's causing, he'd better goddamned know what he's doing. That Big Tent had better buy us enough progress to quiet the sobs.

[Creideiki]

62. Actually, yeah, apparently he is mean-spirited

[Hannah Bell]

75. you have the inside line on his psyche?

seems like half the folks here "know" what obama "is".

but the rest of us aren't supposed to judge what he DOES.

[lapfog_1]

2. Because other conclusions lead you to believe that he made a mistake

And we know he is infallible?

:crazy:

(What happens when it's discovered that we are being used as pawns?)

[Fumesucker]

3. The reaction to Warren was about as predictable as gravity..

I'm sorry, but anyone with the slightest clue of the battles that have been fought by gays for their civil rights could have predicted this reaction.

Obama has more than just the slightest clue.

[BeFree]

16. Actually no

The reaction is off the wall. Its crazy, Its dumb.

This Warren thing is nothing. Not a big deal. Doesn't even begin to measure up to any of even the most minor problems we face. It should just be ignored, forgotten and placed in the dustbin of history and all those upset should get a life and go on to do something that may mean something to their lives or someone else's life.

What a monumental waste of time this bitching and moaning about who the damn preacher is! While kids are dying of hunger in Iraq! What's wrong with you people?

[lapfog_1]

18. "get a life"

yeah, they should get a life.

Actually, I think that's what they are TRYING to do. Pretty much.

[Fumesucker]

25. Warren is as offensive to gays as Duke would be to blacks..

This reaction is not off the wall or dumb, it's entirely predictable for anyone with any degree of sensitivity toward the gay community, I'm not gay and I'm outraged at this bigot being given a national podium to advance his agenda.

[Ms. Toad]

40. Remind me to tell you how to feel

When you and your friends and family are being raped, murdered, losing their jobs for no reason other than who they are, being kicked out of their houses during the funeral of their spouses, being prevented from visiting their loved ones in the hospital, and when someone who advocates such behavior is given a place of honor on the national stage by someone who claims to be a fierce advocate for your rights.

No, we are not dying from hunger - but we are dying, and partly because voices like Warren's are honored rather than condemned.

[BeFree]

44. And all this gets you where?

What is it you hope to accomplish by railing against Obama?

I don't mean YOU, I mean the community.

Sure, LGBT are oppressed, we all know it, not many like it, but how is hurting Obama gonna change things for the better, and how is alienating some of us gonna help?

[Ms. Toad]

53. It is not railing against Obama, it is making sure he understands

what this invitation means to a large number of his supporters who were directly and indirectly hurt by the person he has chosen to honor at a time when he still has the opportunity to change and to apologize for this very hurtful decision. (And yes, I have communicated that directly to his inauguration team.)

As for being alienated, perhaps you ought to spend a little time really listening and trying to understand why this particular invitation is so painful, rather than adding to our pain by trying to minimize it and telling us our concerns and feelings are trivial. Frankly, I am as hurt and angered by the reaction at DU as I am by Obama's initial decision. Every time it seem we are finally able to squeeze our kiddie chair up to a place at the adult table, we are reminded that children should be seen and not heard - or in this case, perhaps not even seen.

How long have you been waiting for a drink at the fountain, and each time the fountain is within sight been told to move to the back of the line?

How many of your friends have been raped and murdered because of who they are?

How many of your children are you not legally related to you because Warren, and others like him, have outlawed your marriage?


How many of your "foster**" children belong to you because their straight parents kicked them out, sent them to reeducation camp, or psychiatric treatment when they realized that their children were gay?

{**By way of explanation: In many gay communities it is common for adult gays to informally "foster" teens who do not otherwise have an adult support system because their own families have rejected them}

How many times have you, or your "foster" children attempted suicide because of the daily torment associated with being gay in this country?


How many homes and belongings have you lost to legal family members who pretend you had no relationship with your deceased life partner of many years?

How many time were you told you were responsible for multiple election losses because you couldn't wait for the "proper time"?

How many times have actively campaigned for the candidate who does not fully support your rights, while remaining silent about a ballot issue that would destroy your marriage - and still been blamed for losing the election?

And then - after years of being spit on, even by members of your own political community - you are finally looking forward to celebrating the inauguration of the man who has faced discrimination and hatred himself, who says he supports your struggle for equal rights. Suddenly, rather than a celebration, once again, you are told to move to the back of the line, and wait your turn because in order to build bridges it "good political strategy," to use as a tool, one of the very people who believes all that you have been putting up with for all of your life is right and just.

And - when you express your deep pain and disappointment at this happening once again, at the hands of someone you had high hopes for - you are told by people who theoretically believe you are a human being and are entitled to full human rights that you need to grow up, stop complaining, it's only trivial, etc.

Building bridges is fine - I'm all for it. I don't know that I would use the invocation slot to do that - but I have no particular problem it it as long the evangelical bridge is not one who is nationally known for calling people like me child molesters, and actively working to break up my family. There are some around.

[BeFree]

65. And it comes to this?

You mean it all hinges on who gives the prayer?

I wrote a bunch of stuff and deleted it. Fuck it. I give up. I'm outta this mess for good. Hiding the threads to boot. I hope yall get your rights soon. I wish yall had 'em already, but there are people who are in far worse shape and need my help more, and are in more solvable situations.

Good luck and peace.

[Ms. Toad]

66. It doesn't all hinge on who gives the prayer -

but honoring Warren in this manner, giving his message credibility by placing him on the national stage with a wink and nod at his attempt to destroy the families of many of your supporters is deeply painful. We are being told, once again, that we have our place at the table is contingent on behaving ourselves and waiting our turn. It is something that can, and should, be easily remedied.

Frankly, I am grateful that you are leaving the discussion if can't grasp that this invitation is deeply wounding and should not be tolerated . As noted earlier, being repeatedly told what it is ok to feel, and when it is ok to express it is as hurtful as Obama's invitation to Warren.

[BeFree]

67. Me too, I'm out of it.

There is nothing but trouble getting involved in this issue, for me. The two sides will not even communicate with each other, all there is is hate, hate, hate. I wish yall well.

[madrchsod]

5. you know warren is`t liked by the rest of the fundies....

warren is to liberal according to the leaders of the right wing fundies....

if obama thinks this grifter is doing the lords work he been had. there`s a lot of people who have fallen for warren`s new age christian bullshit and unfortunately our president is one of them.

obama is aware of the shitstorm he has stirred up by accepting the committees recommendation. let`s not forget the role that our two democrats from california had in this decision.

[fla nocount]

6. We're assuming that he's actually in charge of something.

I find it hard to believe that the junior senator from Illinois set out two years ago the give the Clinton administration and the DLC a second shot at America.

[Fumesucker]

8. He could have vetoed Warren if he wished to..

I fail to see your point, could you clarify a bit?

[MrMickeysMom]

9. Yeah, I tend to agree with that

I think the argument between my husband's reaction, which basically was that Obama basically didn't have the "correct mix" was for me to say, "I'm trying to figure out WHAT the correct placement of people surrounding this cabinet and inauguration SHOULD BE.

I think Obama predicted the response (to inviting a wacko extremer to deliver the invocation) and it's basically the window dressing he needs. My argument back to my hubby is, "there has to be an underlying group of individuals with the necessary agenda to move all of America forward." Call me naive, but I don't think any of us can predict WHO are being used as pawns, and WHO is on the side of moving whatever kind of legislation forward needed to get us out of the biggest mess in history.

[Chulanowa]

11. Ah, Fumesucker!

Still posting about how fucking gawdawful Democrats are here on DemocraticUnderground? Well, no matter how big the tent is, I guess some people just want to hang out in the rain.

Ever consider he's giving Warren a microphone in anticipation of the dumbass hanging himself with the cord? People like Warren are an infected boil in our society. Do we cure this infection by ignoring it? Keeping it in the dark to fester?

[Fumesucker]

15. Right, the best way to defuse bigots is to honor them with national exposure.

I've been told multiple times that Obama is playing a chess game, that implies that there are pawns.

[Chulanowa]

35. Yup, put them up on a big stage with the nation watching...

And let them make a complete and utter fucking ass out of themselves, their organizations, their support network. Let them do that and see their sponsors and donors back the fuck off quicker than you can blink. Let them do that and see a sudden pouring of outrage from the majority of the nation - Some at the folks who facilitated the ass... but mostly at the ass itself.

Are you familiar with the phrase "give them enough rope to hang themselves with"?

Either Warren plays by Obama's rules... Or Rick Warren ends up in a fucking gutter eating cats.

Hell, no matter what, Rick Warren's losing a chunk of his followers and influence just by agreeing to show up.

Maybe it's just that so many here have had their senses dulled by eight years of Captain Dipshit... Hell, I know there's a fair number of posters who's only political experience comes from the reign of Dubya. But we're seeing actual politics here.

And yes, there are pawns. You are not one of them. Rick Warren is.

[Fumesucker]

36. Warren will be careful on stage.. He is a good politician too.

And the straying sheep will be brought back to the fold.

I live down here in fundietopia and grew up in the Southern Baptist church, I know all too well how fundies think.

[Chulanowa]

39. I was one

Not quite at the same level as these guys, and I did get better.

I expect Warren to be careful on stage. And he will then have a debt to work off for Obama. Really it ends up win-win. Either Rick Warren plays by Obama's rules - ceding his own ass to Obama... Or he doesn't play by Obama's rules, in which case his whole shindig implodes. So yes, I expect Warren to play nice. And I further expect he will continue playing nice. I wouldn'd consider him "reformed" but I do think it'll be a long period of "chill the fuck out" for him.

And I'm not sure about the sheep coming back home. Fundies have a funny way of breaking off over the silliest shit and creating new churches. It's why for every Roman Catholic church in a community, there's like eighty "First Holy Church of the Cross of Jesus of Nazereth" variations. Even if they do come back to Warren, he will have lost capital among htem. I'm familiar with hte workings of the whole thing, too. And fundie church gossip is crazy.

[immoderate]

43. This is good.

As I said elsewhere, this move by Obama brings Warren on board to a degree, and cuts off some of his power with the fundies.

I think Obama misread the potential backlash from his base, particularly GLBTs. The predominant reaction by atheists is, "So what else is new?"

--IMM

[DonEBrook]

71. He's "in the dark" about as much as Tom Cruise.

The sonofabitch is on teevee every fucking day. :grr:

[lostnotforgotten]

12. Supporting Bigotry Is Not Brilliance!

eom

[Fumesucker]

20. It depends on what your objectives are.. n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

70. Yes - If One Wants To Alienate Your Base - Mission Accomplished!

eom

[WhollyHeretic]

22. So Obama is using the pain of people whose civil rights were stripped away, thanks in part to

Warren, as a political tool? He is a fucking disgusting human being if they are right.

[fla nocount]

24. We're assuming that he's actually in charge of something.

I find it hard to believe that the junior senator from Illinois set out two years ago the give the Clinton administration and the DLC a second shot at America.

[sendero]

28. For the life of me..

... I cannot understand why anyone is surprised by these moves. Annoyed? Sure. Disapointed? Yes.

Did y'all think all that campaign rhetoric was JUST rhetoric? Obama said he would reach out to the other side and that is what he is doing in a big way.

I think he is reaching a little too much but on the other hand someone has to bridge the divide our country has become.

[Fumesucker]

30. I'm not surprised...

I paid attention to Obama's actions and not his words.

[Ms. Toad]

41. You can't build a bridge

by knocking out one of the banks on which the bridge sits. Warren cannot be a bridge, and Obama should have had enough political saavy to get it.

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Obama's Over His Head These Days

I've supported Obama from the start. But honoring someone who proclaims that I'm going to burn in hell because I don't believe in his doctrine? Shame.

I think that Obama's simply over his head these days. Hopefully, once he's completed selecting his administration, he can pick himself up and shake himself off. Although I suspect he will have a rocky few months at least.

[Fumesucker]

38. Shame? I agree, but I think it's far more calculated than you apparently do. n/t

[Marrah_G]

42. If it was a deliberate move then shame on him.

He was supposed to be different.

If he did this to score points with hate groups then shame on him.

If this was an anti-black, anti-racial marriage, anti-male speaker they would never have been invited.

But it's just gays and women right? so no big deal, they aren't really the important ones.

You would think he would know better.

[Bjorn Against]

45. There was nothing brilliant about this decision, in his attempts to unite us he has divided us.

If the choice of Warren was supposed to bring people together then it failed miserably, I don't think I have ever seen more division caused by any choice Obama has made.

[fla nocount]

46. FISA? n/t

[Bjorn Against]

47. Yeah that was certainly a divisive move as well...

I was really upset about his vote on FISA, but I would say there was a big difference in that case in that it was a bill that he was voting on and it was a case in which he only had two choices he could have possibly made, to vote for it or vote against it. I think he made the wrong choice, in fact I think the choice he made was completely inexcusable. If he would have made the other choice however then another group of people would have been very upset. When it comes to legislation there is usually not a unifying choice, no matter what way you vote you are going to upset some people.

Choosing speakers for the inauguration is a bit different in that there are thousands of possible choices he could have made, and he chose one of the worst possible choices out of those thousands. Sure an inauguration speaker will probably not have the long-term social impact that a bad piece of legislation would have, but there were many more choices available to Obama which would not have been nearly as divisive and because there were so many other choices I think that makes it harder for some people to forgive.

[fla nocount]

49. Every choice made by this administration tells us a bit more.

It seems that they're picking off pieces of the base one at a time too. Progressives, anti-war groups, educators, Sierra Club now the LGBT faction among others. They're taking bites and nibbles but they'll still clean the plate.

The FISA vote and the Bungling Bankers Buffoonery Bill should've told me all I needed to know but if I had known what Dec. 19th would look like I would have stayed away from the polls entirely or written in Dudley Do-Wright, I certainly wouldn't have canvassed, donated and volunteered. Without the vote of these groups being alienated who turned out for the "young black visionary" BO wouldn't be P.E.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Obama is a poltician playing politics-as-usual to woo the right.

Like most Democratic politicians he thinks he can ignore the left because we "have nowhere else to go."

[RedCappedBandit]

50. Agree!

[RedCappedBandit]

51. Too bad DU decided Kucinich was unelectable!

[PeaceNikki]

56. Yeah, it was DU who "decided" that.

:rofl:

[RedCappedBandit]

57. Get over yourself,

it was obviously said in jest.

[PeaceNikki]

58. Piss off.

[RedCappedBandit]

59. Gee, you would've thought it was I who mocked you! nt

[RedCappedBandit]

60. oops. nt

[Toasterlad]

79. The Juxtaposition of Your Post and Your Screen Name Gives Me a Headache.

[Vilis Veritas]

52. As long as 'We The People' are arguing amongst ourselves...

There will never be 'Change We Can Believe In...'

IMO...saddlesore

[Mari333]

55. well , it isnt working..the evangelicals on the xian forums

are mad as hell that warren is speaking.
and they still hate obama.
I have been reading them all morning.

[alfredo]

63. Have some faith in him. He's a very smart politician. He knows he will

have to cash in some chips to get his agenda accepted. Show some faith in Obama and your decision to back him.

[Fumesucker]

76. I don't have faith in anything..

And certainly not in politicians.

[alfredo]

81. there has to be a little so our society can function.

[Fumesucker]

82. Look where unthinking support has brought us in the last eight years..

The Busheviks had faith, it brought us ruin on an unprecedented scale.

Sorry, I'm going to ask questions and be skeptical of the answers until I see actual results.

[alfredo]

83. I not saying give them total license. I am saying we shouldn't

micromanage them. If we trusted them enough to vote for them, we should trust them to some degree once in office.

One move of a pawn doesn't doesn't expose the overall strategy.

[Fumesucker]

85. The squeaky wheel gets the grease..

As FDR was reported to have remarked when liberals approached him about the policies that would become the New Deal: "Now make me do it".

We have to make Obama do what we want him to do, I don't think Obama is particularly progressive or liberal and I believe it will take a great deal of pressure on the part of liberals to get him to govern in such a manner.

[alfredo]

86. I never saw him as anything other than a moderate to conservative Dem.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

64. One unintended consequence is that Warren and his views have been subject to much scrutiny-

I've certainly been educated. I thought he was just a cheesy Dr. Phil type, I didn't know how reactionary and biased he really is.

I saw a clip of the Ann Curry interview where she asks him that is if is ever conclusively proved that sexual preference is a metter of predetermined genetics, would he change his views and he said NO.

Now, that just makes him look like a dogma dunce -ignorant by choice, and I can't think that this is good for him or his followers.

[librechik]

89. I agree--Warren will be in the spotlight and subject to criticism and pressure

Is he really going to violate Obama's moment with a prayer that is not about finding unity and forgiving one another and following Christ's way? This could be a big moment for Rick if he is sincere (big IF, I know) but wouldn't it be great if he could say something humble and unifying? For the nation? Man, Obama would be like a magician if he could pressure Warren enough to do that!

Ack, he's a hack--he'll probably just blow his own horn, somehow.

[dbackjon]

68. FUCK OBAMA's Brillance.

Yeah, Hitler was a brilliant politician too.

[gravity]

72. I don't think it was Obama's intention to play anyone as pawns

There are going to be people who will get outraged by this, but I don't think it really plays into his advantage.

He probably wants to bring the country closer together like he talked about during his whole campaign, and show that we can find common ground with others, even if we disagree on some of the issues.

There will be some people who get offended, but the political costs is worth the gain of helping bring together most of the country in his eyes.

[fla nocount]

74. The Gee Dubious excuse, "it was my handlers, bum information." n/t

[readmoreoften]

73. Of course LGBT people are his pawns. I'm just surprised his strategy is to kill us all off in the

first five moves in hopes of a checkmate.

Brilliant? I don't think so. Politically aggressive? Sure.

[Fumesucker]

77. We really have no idea what Obama's true objectives are..

Politicians always change their tune once they are elected.

[Toasterlad]

78. You Are Giving Him Far, Far Too Much Credit.

This isn't "strategy". This is INDIFFERENCE.

Remember what Kanye West said about Bush and black people? That's Obama and gay people.

OBAMA DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT GAY PEOPLE, AND HE DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT WHO KNOWS IT.

He doesn't care that our people are pissed off, because he considers us marginal members of society who have no power to change it, and no right to attempt to do so.

[Fumesucker]

80. I'm not gay and it pisses me off too..

A substantial segment of DU that isn't gay is pissed at this, possibly even a majority.

Obama's enough of a God botherer where I suspect you're right though, he doesn't care about gays because his religion tells him that they are unclean. Never mind that he has almost certainly eaten shellfish, another unclean item according to the same book he takes his attitude on teh gay from.

[glitch]

84. I hope to God he isn't playing chess with our nation.

These are very serious and complex times, if I thought he hadn't evolved beyond the "grand chessboard" mentality I would be even sicker than I am about what I hope will be a rare mis-step.

[tbyg52]

87. Either your theory is correct, or he is way dumber than I thought he was.

I don't see any other explanation.

[eppur_se_muova]

88. He's trying to show that white preachers can be over-the-top crazy too?

Dude, WE KNEW THAT. The only people who need to hear that message are exactly the ones who are least likely to get it.