Should California be booted from the Union?

[NJmaverick]

As I read the arguments from those attacking Obama over the Warren issue, that seems to be their message. The attack Obama for Warren crowd is saying that those that supported proposition 8 should not be allowed to participate in our government. Since a majority of voters, in California, voted in favor of prop 8 it would seem the state should not be allowed to be part of the United States (how can we allow an anti-gay state in our Union?).

You know I understand the anger and dissatisfaction in the gay community. Prop 8 (and the similar measures in other states) were wrong by any measure. Yet anger and frustration have the potential to be dangerous or constructive. There can be constructive outlets (like educating the general public and getting them to see the error of their ways) and there are bad outlets (like blindly lashing out at anyone and everyone at the slightest provocation).

I am a very strong advocate of gay rights. Not just here (where such support improves one popularity), but in open and even conservative leaning forums (where such support causes a great deal of grief). Yet, I believe that the way to full equality is not done by force. Rather it's done by engagement and education, just as all other rights were achieved. What happened in California is a perfect example. The courts rightful gave a basic right, yet an ignorant public took it away.

You know I have seen hard core Republicans and Conservatives now admit that Obama was a better choice than McCain. That is an impressive and unprecedented accomplishment. With that sort of clout and universal support there is no limit on the positive changes Obama can accomplish. On the other hand if he became the liberal version of a petty partisan George Bush, I believe he would be as equally ineffective.

Respect and dialog are the path to the best future for our Country. To suggest a preacher that has sold over 40 million books is some sort of fringe element, is simply far afield of the truth. As unpleasant his views are, he represents the views of a sizable portion of our population. The only way for our diverse Country to thrive and prosper is to emphasize respect and tolerance of differences. As the old saying goes, united we stand and divided we fall. So give Obama some slack, don't worry about the petty things (like who says a prayer at his inauguration) and worry about important things (like how he improves the rights of gays and all Americans).

[derby378]

1. For once, I don't have to hear calls for Texas to be expelled

This really is Bizarro World!

[ContinentalOp]

2. That would be wonderful!

Please, please, kick us out. Thank you Prop 8!

[MindPilot]

3. Cool! Now we don't have to do all the work to secede voluntarily

We're keeping Vegas...

[last1standing]

4. That's why I want to see Stormfront leading the inaugural parade.

I mean we wouldn't want to ignore those fine, upstanding Americans would we?

[NJmaverick]

12. Strawman arguments are no better

[last1standing]

39. Yours was the strawman. Mine was the logical result.

You're ignorant about debate as well as civil rights.

[NJmaverick]

43. uh huh, pathetic

sigh... some DUers are beyond reason.

[readmoreoften]

42. No. That's not a straw man. That's an ANALOGY. And it's an apt one.

As the Southern Poverty Law Center, which considers the groups Obama is associating with hate organizations.

[Bluebear]

5. 'I understand the anger and dissatisfaction in the gay community' - but want you all to be quiet now

Right?

[tnlefty]

10. "Make our clothes and fix our hair"

Sorry, that part of Prop 8 The Musical just popped into my head.

[NJmaverick]

14. Funny I think made it clear what I think the community should be doing

I said they should be acting intelligently to improve the situation rather than blindly lashing out. Pretty sure that can not be translated by any ration or reasonable person into "be quiet now".

[Mari333]

34. thats the message I heard too

'sit down and behave like good little gays'.
it was so much easier on obama and other people when you all stayed in the closet.
:sarcasm:

[NJmaverick]

35. That would be a clear sign of a closed mind

you are incapable of hearing what is said, just what you want to hear.

[Mari333]

36. no, its what I saw during the struggle for civil rights in the 60s

black people told they were too uppity, getting too mad about this n that. need to behave, settle down, and negotiate .
same thing.

[NJmaverick]

37. Yeah it is, no spin will change that

[Bucky]

6. What would we call people who illegally emigrate to California? Glitterbacks?

Help me here. I'm trying to think of the most hurtful, dehumanizing slur against Amero-Californians I can think of. I fucking hate those traitors. Start bombing those fuckers NOW!

*what- wait... was I dreaming again?*

[Swamp Rat]

7. "The attack Obama for Warren crowd" ... or aka, Americans for Equal Rights for ALL.

[NJmaverick]

11. ONLY know or called that by the same attack Obama crowd

[Bluebear]

13. yeah that "same attack-Obama crowd". Obama is the victim here.

Now what were you saying about how you are so interested in gay rights?

[NJmaverick]

16. You need to take a breath and THINK

before posting

[Bluebear]

19. I can't, I'm one of those panicky drama queen gays trying to ruin the party for everyone

[NJmaverick]

22. You clearly are panicky and you do seem to love the dramatic

and I will take your word for being gay. Still it doesn't make your position any less illogical or destructive.

[Bluebear]

23. Here's an idea, then: stop presuming to tell gays what they "need" to do.

[NJmaverick]

24. Does that mean you are not allowed to tell straight people what they need to do????

somehow I think it doesn't. You feel that for some reason you are entitled to a double standard and an unjustified feeling of moral superiority. Unfortunately the victim card only goes so far.

[Bluebear]

25. Ah yes, the "victim card".

[NJmaverick]

27. Doesn't go as far as you like it to, does it?

there actually is some expectations that you back up your positions with logic and reason, just like the rest of us. You can't simply look down on people or tell them they are wrong, simply for being straight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I f you don't get it why people who are members of the GBLT

community are pissed, I suggest you pick a history book and read

I'd sugest any period where persecution of a minority was accepted.

Not even gonna suggest the usual one either, for variety sake you could use the 1960s and the American South

And asking Warren to do the invocation is that kind of an insult

If you cannot get it, nobody can help you

Me... I get the politics behind it.

And I think this is base triangulation, surrender to the right and it does not work

[NJmaverick]

28. You didn't even read my post did you?

you just went into knee jerk reaction mode. At least that is pretty clear by the title of your post.

[Bluebear]

29. Your turn to be called knee-jerk. Have at it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Nah this is the first time and last time I adress this person

on this issue

Lack of capacity to understand cannot be helped

And I expect him to report this as a personal attack too

[NJmaverick]

41. Your thoughtless knee jerk reactions will not be missed by me (or anyone else)

[Johonny]

8. Given the Californians are vastly under represented in

congress and absolutely screwed in federal tax dollars spent... I can't see how Californians don't end up net winners with the idea.

[taught_me_patience]

9. California would be better off

The $50B net drain of federal tax dollars per year is really hurting our economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. That CLOSES the deficit

right there

[ContinentalOp]

44. $50b? It looks more like $300 billion to me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Please do... we Californians we'll thank you

no pun or sarcasm

[Sanctified]

17. You would have to kick AZ and OR too. n/t

[NJmaverick]

18. Yeah pretty much, it all goes along with the illogical line of thinking

[Johnyawl]

30. And WA!!!

We're going with the rest of the left coast!

[Sanctified]

32. What sucks is WA, OR and CA are all very liberal.

So it means even liberals are voting against gay marriage.

[Cleita]

20. Go ahead but you get to keep Arnold.

Also, be aware that our tax money keeps your state going probably as we always get less back than we pay. Poor states benefit from our economy.

[dana_b]

31. considering Prop 8 won by only 4%...

that's laughable. Years ago prop 22 won by 20% - the gap is narrowing and I really believe that people will see the light and marriage for all will come soon (within 10 years maybe?). If California was to be kicked out, we all would suffer.

I do understand the point you were trying to make though, however those that don't see the Warren invocation as a big deal must understand that the GLBT community just suffered this loss (Prop 8) and now it seems as though they are being slapped in the face again with this. Give them a break and please be compassionate and understanding. We must stand with them when things like this happen. You're absolutely right about education though. I think Obama could use a lesson here.

[NJmaverick]

33. I stand by people in a postive manner

I can not pretend to be supportive if people are doing something that is ill concieved and destructive to causes both big and small. That is not the right thing to do.

[stillcool]

40. the reason why Prop 8 passed

was because of all the black people, as far as I recall. Why don't we just get rid of them?