"De-Fanging the Right" Obama and the Warren Move.

[Blue State Bandit]

"But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding..." BHO


Anyone who didn't see such a thing coming was not listening to Barack Obama before the election. He made it plain as day that he would reach out to the evangelical community. Such a task would be impossible to accomplish without such a move.

I understand that the GLBT community may not be pleased with the decision to have Warren speak at the inauguration, but some of the vitriol aimed at Obama is unwarranted hyperbole. Obama is not denying the GLBT community "a seat at the table". Anyone who honestly believes this is fooling themselves, and giving up their own seat. This can not happen. The GLBT community needs to be the counterweight on Obama's side. Walking away is what they (the whole right wing) would have done under Bush.

Yes. Warren is a bigot. But he's not a full Palin. And he has opened the door for Obama to inject change into the evangelical community at-large. This is an opportunity to wrest a huge chunk of moderate evangelicals from the clutches of the most venomous aspects of the theocratic fundamentalists that run that show. Believe me, there are way worse (Hagee, Parsley, hmm...) out there.

This will be known as "Classic Obama". Disarming his opponents. Getting his way in the end.

Rick Warren is taking just as much heat from the right as Obama is from the left. But the bulk of Warren's followers will now be open to the suggestions of an Obama Administration on many issues that would normally be blindly opposed if offered by any other Democrat. Warren's acceptance of this offer by Obama is a catalyst for change.

Here begins the de-fanging of the religious right. It will not happen over night, and it requires such a bold, and politically dangerous move to instigate such a change. Obama has made it clear that he stands with the GLBT community. Rick Warren has no sway over him on this issue. Civility disarms the discussion.

Warren is a means to an end. And that end includes isolating the radical fundamentalists within the evangelical movement. The opposition I'm hearing over this is no different from the cries I heard from the right over Obama's willingness to hold talks with the leadership of Iran. Where is the GLBT's righteous indignation over that? Iran actually executes gays. But do we not all agree that there is more immediate issues that needs to be settled first to allow that discussion to take place. And in such diplomatic exercises, agreement breeds agreement. If Obama can get the evangelical community on-board with climate and the fiscal responsibility of big business, it would be harder to continue the hard line opposition to GLBT equality. And those who cling to their hatred will be marginalized.

Rick Warren is one of MANY SPEAKERS at the inauguration, and will not be the only pastor to offer prayers at this event. But you can join me in turning my nose at him, or however you would be pleased to tell him yourself, just what you think of him... from The Mall.

And let us not forget, he just nominated an openly gay man, William White from the Intrepid Museum, to be the Secretary of the Navy. Not some honorary cabinet position, or a wedding singer gig at Woody's, an openly gay military leader. Something impossible to even conceive before Obama. And something which may someday lead to a lucrative notch for more "Village People" wedding cover bands.

Barack Obama is showing the GLBT community that he has not forgotten them. Don't be so blinded with disgust that you miss the bigger picture, and your places in the group portrait. Will we lose everything because we inherited our oppressor's worst traits: blind hatred, and an unreasonable sense of moral certitude? You have to knock down some walls if you want to change the country.

"“For the want of a nail, the shoe was lose; for the want of a shoe the horse was lose; and for the want of a horse the rider was lost, being overtaken and slain by the enemy, all for the want of care about a horseshoe nail.” Ben Franklin

[rpannier]

1. I know many people who are similar to Warren

This won't work the way you think it will.

This is wishful thinking.

And I still want to know where his invitation to the Grand Dragon of the KKK and the Leader of the Aryan Brotherhood to his inauguration are.

[Odin2005]

2. Bingo.

Obama KNOWS what he is doing. He can see beyond the superficial culture war framing that has empowered the Religious right and he is about to shove a stake through the heart of those frames. It will piss the purists off, but it will be a plus for the GLBT community in the end when the Religious Right threat is neutralized through clever politics.

[roguevalley]

24. giving them a place doesn't defang them. their bigotry is as close

to them as their own skin. I see nothing here that defangs them. There is nothing here that requires them to change. They will be justified. They are a vicimization driven sub culture. They get off on exclusion and they will see this as they see everything -superficially and short term- as justification
of their point of view. i know this bunch. Too many around me not to see it as they do.

[Mari333]

3. wrong. its not defanging them, its FUELING their bigotry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4682771

[boomerbust]

4. Well Said

:kick:

[KG]

5. it doesn't defang them, it legitimizes their hate.

[Mari333]

6. hell, it HONOURS their hate and bigotry. n/t

[Blue State Bandit]

19. You don't change minds with a hammer.

All the hammer does is make a bloody mess. The longer this wound festers, the more sceptic it will become.

Honor has nothing to do with this. It is necessity. We can't drive them into the sea. We all still have to live in the same country. Don't act like them.

[loyalsister]

7. People are so rigidly stuck in the Bush paradigm

Even Obama supporters are having trouble with the possibility of a real shift. It becomes more and more clear all the time how few people have read his books and listened to his speeches. This reaching out and building bridges is exactly what he said he would do. If we could all stand together on it, it would be a very powerful beginning to this presidency.
Are we forgetting that we have some massive economic problems to deal with? Should we play who matters most or maybe look for a vision that includes us all?

[offog]

8. I dunno about this.

It's one thing to reach out to opponents. It's another to cuddle up with bigot. Would Obama have "reached out" to someone who openly made racist comments, or campaigned on a platform appealing to fear of black people? To me, homophobia is no different from racism, except that homophobia is more socially acceptable.

I'm a straight middle-aged white woman who's had a membership at my city's gay club for a couple of years. The GLBT people there have been good to me, and aside from sexual orientation or gender identity, they're not much different from the other people I hang out with. They think about family, friends, careers, politics, and the weather just like everybody else. If some homophobe was to be a guest of honor at civic function, I'd be out there protesting along with my friends.

[Blue State Bandit]

20. It seems that if you rule out all the bigots...

you would have no opponents to reach out to in the first place. Wouldn't you say?

[roguevalley]

26. then don't rule out the bigots. there are plenty out there. give them

all a platform to preen on. Why limit it to just this one?

[Ms. Toad]

9. Sorry, but giving evangelicals - in general -

a place at the table is far different from honoring a particularly vile bigot, who recently was a key mover and shaker to remove existing marriage rights in the same election which put Obama in office.

There are numerous evangelical pastors who are not actively working against, and saying vile things about, your supporters. Honor one of them with a place at the inaugural table - rather than cramming hatred down throats of your supporters with a cruel reminder of what was lost - and at whose hands on the day you were elected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. That is the logic, it is called triangulation

and you know what? It does not work all the time, especially when used with the extremes of either side

And in this case this is the American Taliban

[Blue State Bandit]

21. The extreme are not the targets.

Their marginalization will be a by-product of the moderates casting them off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Sorry to disagree but the target of this are the American Fundamentalist

Christians and IT IS NOT WORKING

Listen to some fundy radio, or read some of what they are writing.

By the by, not that folks get this... the country is doing a LEFTWARD lurch, like 1932

You think the left will be marginalized for whatever the "center" wants?

If history is your guide, and it is mine, that is not the lesson of history

Either the country will turn to the extreme right (which we are not that far from) or the left, but the middle, center... is about to become a thing of history

But this is a mistake... granted, one that people will soon forget due to the economy... but a mistake nonetheless

[Blue State Bandit]

30. Obama's targets are young moderate evangelicals...

the ultimate goal is to marginalize the fundies by reducing their manpower. Warren's trip to Washington will give moderate evangelicals cover to support more progressive ideas. They can turn to their families and friends and explain why they support Obama by saying Warren approves.

Obama is after the audience, and Warren is a tool to gain that audience. Not all rank and file evangelicals are homophobes and bigots. Prop 8 will eventually fail. Obama is just co-opting another loser for his own agenda.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. This will work wonders if you look at history NOT

though this is the end of another American Revival, and like other American Revivals, the Fundies will exit stage left from the realm of politics

That is history, and that would happen with this misake (and it is one) or withouth it

[gravity]

11. It's classic Obama

He is picking off the right one by one, and they don't even see it coming.

[stillcool]

12. I would like very much for Obama...

to at least acknowledge how divisive this choice is, especially at what should be a celebration of 'we the people'. I understand those that say the right wing of the United States should be represented as well, and perhaps anyone that comes from that cloth is by the nature of the label, anti-gay, anti-women. But surely there is someone who is not as outspoken in his loathing of other Americans. I have to say that this choice has certainly brought gay rights front and center..and maybe the consequences will be positive, rather than negative. I don't live in California, but it certainly seems that the dialogue that this has opened up is necessary.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. legitimizing homophobic bigotry is fanging, not defanging

but I give up, this bullshit has gone on long enough. Yes you are all right. Brilliant move by Obama. Too bad is wasn't the Rev Phelps instead, how much more profound a defanging that would have been.

[BeFree]

18. Hey

Warren is bad enough. But the reason it is Warren is that he has been ballyhooed as the leader of America's evangelical is some other bs designation.

That's why, and Obama is doing just as he said he would always do: build bridges. I've done it before and it works.

I went to the crook's office one time and sat there asking questions and listening real hard. I had the guy spilling secrets. When it came time for a public meeting, I had the drop on the SoB and put him smack in his place: the bottom.

Same thing with Barack, he gets to know them and when the time comes he has the drop on them and instantly the power shifts.

Now we can all agree that some people have the right to be offended. But most are taking this way over the top and fail to see the political ramifications. But that's alright, they are rookies. Obama is the real pro.

[Lorien]

25. Well said n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. !

:thumbsup:

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. I have no idea how well this strategy will work = but it's worth a try

[glitch]

16. How about some early returns on how well legitimizing as de-fanging works?

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4685771

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. "Rick Warren is taking just as much heat from the right as Obama is from the left" - proof, please

because when I look at Baptist media, all they talk about is how liberals are annoyed by it:

President-elect Barack H. Obama has invited Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at Obama's inauguration ceremony Jan. 20 in Washington, D.C., and homosexual activists have reacted with outrage.

Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church, the Southern Baptist-affiliated mega-church in Orange County, Calif., angered homosexual activists when he endorsed Proposition 8, a ballot initiative that amended the state constitution to define marriage as being the union of a man and a woman. Prop 8, which passed 52-48 percent, overturned a state high court ruling that had legalized "gay marriage."

When the announcement was made Dec. 17 that Obama had invited Warren to pray at the inaugural, the angry reaction came swiftly from activists still smarting over Prop. 8's defeat.
...
Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, applauded Obama for choosing Warren.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=29535&ref=BPNews-RSSFeed1218

And when you see 'Warren defends himself', you find it's against a charge of homophobia, not against 'heat from the right':

Rick Warren, the Orange County evangelical pastor who'll give the invocation at Barack Obama's historic presidential inauguration on Capitol Hill next month, says he's not at all homophobic, as some gay rights groups have charged, because he supported Prop. 8 to ban same-sex marriage.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/rick-warren-oba.html

And all the news headlines are about Obama trying to defend the choice.

You're wrong. Unless you have some examples that the rest of us don't see.

[rucky]

17. The shortest path between two points is...

not this theory.

[Toasterlad]

22. You Are Absolutely Right. This IS Classic Obama.

You are also higher than free-basing kite if you think that Obama cares one iota for gay people.

[CitizenPatriot]

23. I'm done debating this issue

but here's something we can do something about:


Petition to kill Prop 8:

http://www.petitiononline.com/equlity/petition.html

donate to kill Prop 8:

https://secure2.convio.net/laglc/site/Donation2?idb=177...


At the urging of church President Thomas Monson, Mormons contributed more than $15 million to fund the deceitful advertising campaign that resulted in a small majority of Californians supporting Prop 8. For each donation of $5 or more at www.InvalidateProp8.org, the Center will send Monson a postcard to let him know a donation was made in his name to fund legal organizations fighting Prop 8 and to fund grass-roots efforts supporting marriage equality.

[scarletwoman]

27. You don't "defang" a movement by giving them legitimacy & credibility.

You defang them by refusing to cede any ground to them.

Don't try to feed me shit and tell me it's good for me. I refuse to eat shit, period.

sw

[dana_b]

33. yep. I think it's smart to sit down and talk to him

sometime but to give them and him an HONOR by having him speak the inauguration is insulting.

[HillWilliam]

29. This is magical thinking

One hundred percent of the time that the extreme right has been handed an olive branch, they have snatched it from our hands and used it to beat us with. Have we learned nothing? They never back down unless they are pushed down. Giving them the foremost place of honor, the kickoff no less, only serves to encourage them.

I agree that they should have a place at the table, but to seat one of their own (symbolically) at the head of it, and so quickly after Prop H8 and the ballot measures in Florida and Arkansas? That was a gaffe of monumental proportion, salt and iodine in an open wound.

The message seems clear: indeed, we are not forgotten. Once again, we were useful for our vote but when we want our place at the table, there seems to be no more room. If there are any crumbs on the floor, we shall have to make do with those.

[CTyankee]

32. I'll just bet you that Obama is relying on data to back up what the OP is essentially saying.

The same rationale was given in a story about Warren in today's NY Times.

The data probably shows a trending toward more gay acceptance among younger religious right members, fundies or whatever you want to call them. The hard liners are getting older and their vanishing point is probably not far off. How many will they leave behind that think they way they do? Will there be enough to replace them down the line or will they invariably become extinct?

I think this is Obama's bet right now. At some point our society stopped hanging witches for heresy and hasn't done so since. IT may just be that Obama is betting heavily that the trending on gay acceptance will become the norm with the dying off of the old generation...

[HillWilliam]

39. Yet hate crimes against GLBT folks

are still trending upward. Acceptance? Not so much in fundiworld. We've never been able to trust them, not in the least. Every single solitary time we've tried to trust, to reach out, to dialogue with them, they've only gotten crazier, more violent, more open with their irrational hatreds, more vocal about it, and more willing to act on it. I bet the way Obama is currently betting all of my adult life. Y'know something? It doesn't work.

You can't reason with people who don't want reason. They want everything all. Their. Way. All. The. Time. All or nothing. And if they destroy the nation when they can't have their way, they don't really care. They don't care what lives they ruin; they don't care what damage they cause; they don't care whom they hurt. All they understand is money and power.

Period.

I've had it. After Prop H8, Warren was the last and final straw. You can't reason with those people and after thirty years of activism, dialogging, reaching out, and trying, I find I'm no longer in the mood. There absolutely can be one bridge too far.

I'll advise PE Obama, right here, right now. I've been gay and an activist for my rights a lot longer than he has for his. I'm older; I've been around this block. He's making a fool's bet. The only thing those power-mad bullies will understand clearly is a big fat poke in the nose.

He's welcome to play fast-and-loose with his rights. He is absolutely not welcome to play with mine. By inviting Warren to his party, he isn't endangering his any at all. But he most certainly is playing with mine -- and they are not his to wager.

[CTyankee]

40. Violent thugs are just that. They must be stopped and incarcerated.

Hate crimes must be aggressively prosecuted and heavy punishments meted out. I certainly want Obama to have his Justice Department deal with any hate crimes promptly and severely.

As for hate speech, it's a problem. I've worked at women's clinics where the harrassment of women was intolerable to listen to, enraging and hurtful to our patients. But we also had counter demonstrators who expressed the prochoice side just as fervently. And we had wonderful volunteer escorts for patients. This was before the FACE legislation of the Clinton Administration. When they blocked access to the clinics or invaded them, the protestors faced federal penalties and literally received judgements that took their houses from them. It was a get tough attitude of Clinton's Justice Dept. and the legislation that Congress passed that got the protestors out of their line of business fast!

We straight people need to speak out more. I dialog with my other straight friends whether they like it or not. I dialog with my 13 year old granddaughter when she calls some kid "gay" in a deprecating way. I talk about how she'll find as she gets older that she has gay friends and how much that can hurt her friends. I can't change the culture of her entire middle school but I can sure as hell make it clear to her why her speech is wrong. Since my family is totally gay friendly I expect there will be a big discussion about Rick Warren at Christmas/Hanukkah. Bend that twig!

I am so sorry that you have worked so hard and become so disheartened. We will have to see what Obama actually does at the federal level and what encouragement he gives to the Congress to enact legislation that is beneficial to gays and especially to rescind DOMA which was an absolute disgrace.

Good luck. It certainly can't get worse than Bush and his crowd, and it may get a lot better. I am hoping for that and doing whatever I can. But then, I live in CT which is pretty liberal...

[Bucky]

34. If I'm really really nice to the popular kids, maybe they'll invite me to their parties

There's a time to make nice with your opponents and the inauguration is certainly a great chance to do so. But there's never a time to give unique honors to those who want to attack Americans' civil rights. Invite him to the White House for tea, appoint him to a panel on civility or fighting poverty. By all means, find common cause with any sincere public citizen willing to meet us in good faith and share the calumet of patriotism.

But don't turn the officiating of prayer over to men who preach a doctrine rejecting equality under the law.

[anonymous171]

36. You cannot defang the right.

They will attack you regardless of how right wing you are. If you are a democrat, or are to the left of Ronald Reagan, you are their enemy.

[kenny blankenship]

37. One reason why this is so painful is that the whole thing is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY

Obama was just elected in an Electoral College blowout victory. He won big against someone called a moderate Republican while being painted by his opponent and the media as the MOST LIBERAL member of the Senate. He is succeeding George W. Bush, the first Fundamentalist/Evangelical conservative President who is leaving office with the worst approval ratings in history and with the country on the brink of bankruptcy and depression. The Republicans are in general collapse after waves of corruption scandals, economic disaster, and endless war. And along with taking the Presidency in a walk, the Democrats will have just picked up 8 seats in the Senate. Reach out to the far right--why? The country just reached out to the left!

There was simply no call for Obama sticking his fingers in the eyes of the Democratic Party base in order to appease religious nutjobs --who in any case can't be converted into tolerant secular liberals until they first free themselves from the cults of scam artist hatemongers like Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard, and Rick Warren.

The venom in the religious rightwing will remain exactly as it is and was; but by exercising the power they sought for so long, they managed over the past 8 years to bash their own fangs out. Leave them be. You will not defang them. Picking up the snake and petting it will never change the venom that's inside it--that comes from its DNA (or if you prefer from its Intelligent Designer) Meanwhile as you hold it the serpent is growing new teeth. Do not put the imprimatur of this era defining victory on their religious poison and toxic politics by elevating and embracing them on the Inaugural stage.

[backscatter712]

38. Well said.

For all the hyperbole being flung around, the fact is that Obama has put the right wing in a spot too. They're now forced to choose between accepting Obama's olive branch, and by doing so, kissing Obama's ring, or slapping Obama back, and in doing so, making themselves look bad, and giving Obama justification to smack them down.

There is political good to be had from this.

Anyways, I'm taking a break for a few days - the mass-hysteria on this board has become intolerable. I'll be back after people calm down.

[bemildred]

41. "Divide and rule" may be applied to the right as well as the left.

Obama appears to understand this.

[leftofthedial]

42. what a load of bullshit.