some questions re: Arne Duncan and school reform

[ulysses]

I'm told that reformers like Duncan, Rhee and Klein want to fire the bottom 6% of teachers. Ok - I've worked with some folks who don't belong in the classroom.

- Is it safe to assume that standardized test scores will be the determining factor in who goes in that 6%?

- If so, any ideas for new careers for a special ed teacher who won't cheat on standardized tests? I have experience in retail book sales and some ancient skills in GUI web design.

- Given that there aren't exactly hordes of folks beating down the doors to teach, especially in Title I schools, who are the replacements for the six-percenters going to be?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I say every Congress critter who voted for the damn law should spend a year doing what we do

They are clueless.

Some Sec of Ed choice, eh?

My Obama honeymoon is over.

[ulysses]

2. I haven't given up entirely on Obama.

I like his Labor choice. But it certainly seems that he's making teachers a target in making his postpartisan bones. The fight goes on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. His Agriculture choice is bad too

But this Rick Warren thing sent me over the edge.

I'm done.

[KharmaTrain]

3. Investment And Reform...

Duncan came into a Chicago school system that was old and run down...a liability even in the finest neighborhoods. A lot of this was due to the School Board's over reliance on Federal funding in the 60's and 70's that were cut out during the 80's and then complicated by a battery of merit tests that eroded funding further...the "good schools" were suffering as they were dragged down by the poor ones and the poor ones were dragged even further in the hole as they lost even more funding due to their poor performances...a Catch 22 that led to the CPS being rated one of the worst in the country and a liability to the city overall...depressing real estate values and luring business.

Rich Daley, Duncan and others pushed to restructure the school system...more along a corporate model where good schools wouldn't be adversly affected by poor ones and focus could be made on increasing test scores systemwide. If anything, Duncan was an opponent of NCLB and helped clean out a school board that had been in decline for decades with fresh ideas and city money and support to back him up.

I've NEVER read where Duncan favors firing teachers unless they truly deserve it...discipline cases. If anything, the city, under Duncan has been bringing in new, younger teachers through their Golden Apple program to get better, more dedicated and enthusiastic teachers in tackling the severe problems facings many inner city schools. No, it's not paradise but compared to how the system in Chicago was, Duncan is viewed very favorably in this city by teachers and parents alike.

[ulysses]

5. the 6% figure came from NPR tonight.

If that's wrong, I'll be happy to amend my objections.

As to the corporate model - let's just say that it's fraught with stupidities.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Why doesn't anyone ever want to fire 6% of the administrators?

:grr:

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. We heard good things about Rod Paige in Houston too

But we all know how that turned out.

[Bucky]

20. I'm in Houston. If you heard good thing about Rod Paige it's cause you didn't ask me

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. LOL I will remember that next time

Back when Paige was being promoted as the best thing since sliced bread, my district sent a group down to Houston to tour some schools and meet with Paige. They came back completely unimpressed. Shortly after that, Paige's empire began to crumble.

[Bucky]

19. Thank you. He sounds like a good choice

NCLB is fucking headache; our school is top performing in almost all categories but they keep snagging us on technicalities that screw with our AYPs. Test scores have been improved every year for the last three years, our graduation rates are increasing dramatically, and yet we still keep getting pinged. It's maddening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. My school makes AYP every year but our district does not

It's a royal PITA. We work our tails to the bone and don't even get a certificate of recognition for it. And the schools that never make AYP get all the resources and some absolutely wonderful programs. The message is fail and get rewarded.

[KamaAina]

4. Duncan in the same breath as Rhee?

If justified, that is not exactly confidence-inspiring. :scared:

[ulysses]

6. what we seem to be presented with

is a mellow Rhee - this per NPR, fwiw.

[KamaAina]

7. Oh well, at least he can stick the J

at least they've got their priorities straight :sarcasm:

[ulysses]

8. meet the new boss.

This won't be very fun.

[PVnRT]

11. Hey, they gotta break those unions somehow

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner folks.

[PVnRT]

14. Should have heard NPR this evening

Duncan can "get along" with unions. It's going to take some "fighting" but he'll "reform" the education system.

I really, really hope he has a few undocumented workers cutting his grass.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. We had a union Christmas party tonight

We are AFT. I asked a few of the more politically aware teachers what they thought of Duncan and they all said our national president liked him so they were fine with with him. I asked if they knew he likes merit pay and not a one had any idea. Hopefully they are doing a little research this weekend. :)

[Bucky]

17. I'm a teacher and I like merit pay. I'm getting a nice bonus this year.

They still don't pay us enough, tho I expect there won't be many base pay raises coming our way in the middle of a depression.

[ulysses]

21. mind if I ask what population you teach?

[Bucky]

37. city schoool, but not inner city, mostly Hispanic, about 1/3 immigrants.

lower middle income, lots of poor families in the neighborhood, but not much a gang problem. It's a new school building and I'm certain that our aesthetics add a whole lot to performance expectations the kids place on themselves.

[ulysses]

39. general ed?

[Bucky]

44. Yep. Well, we have our share of SpEd, ESL (now called ELLs), ADHDs, etc

I teach history. But we're a mainstream school.

[ulysses]

46. so how does that work with merit pay?

I understand that our kids with special needs aren't usually self-contained any more - I work in a co-teaching environment - but whose performance gets scrutinized if your SWDs don't pass the test?

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Good for you

I teach special ed. I don't anticipate any merit pay raises in my future. I also keep asking how the ESL teacher, the Art teacher and the Music teacher will earn merit raises. And the counselor. How does that work where you teach?

[Bucky]

36. It's based on the school's over all performance

You don't want it individualized cause you need the faculty working as a team, not fighting over who gets saddled with the wrong kids.

Keep in mind also that our students' performances are based on "added value" - that is, did the students we teach perform well in comparison to other demographically comparable groups (our school isn't being compared to an affluent school in the burbs where the parents all have college degrees) and did the students we teach improve based on their individual scores - like if a kid who passed the last two standardized tests with a 90% score suddenly only passed your class with a 70% score, you're not going to get credit for advancing his learning.

It's a complicated formula, but it seems to reward real teaching results. Sadly, it still rewards teaching to the test.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. So everyone on staff gets a raise?

[Bucky]

45. Sadly, no, just the teachers & administrators. Last year in my dept...

When we earned the big bonus, we all chipped in and gave our own bonus to the TAs who'd helped in prepping our students for the standardized NCLB testing, but I'm sure most departments & schools don't do that.

I think there may be some paraprofessional hourly staff who get a piece of the action this year, but I'm not positive that's the case.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Well that's better than just rewarding those whose students scored well

But yes, it should be the entire school. It really is a team effort.

[Bucky]

16. Is Arne Duncan a union-breaker? Really?

I don't know much about him; I'd appreciate any info you could provide, thanks.

[PVnRT]

23. Start here

http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/

"Reform" in education is a code-word for supporting NCLB and relying on standardized testing.

[Bucky]

38. I'm a teacher. I know that the word "reform" means a million different things

I live in the education soccer scrum. Some reform is bullshit and some is extremely effective.

You need to be careful about throwing around labels.

[leftofthedial]

18. they'll just make classes bigger.

that way they can kill three birds with one stone:

1. they can pretend that "standards-based" education works because they've eliminated the "bad" teachers;

2. they can cut budgets;

3. they can move public education even further toward total destruction.

[gravity]

22. What ways do you think are most effective for removing bad teachers?

The problem is that there isn't a simple way to do it, like most of the problems with our education system.

[PVnRT]

24. The "reform" crowd thinks test scores are the Holy Grail

Everything can measured by standardized test scores. According to them, teachers are bad if they can't get their students to do well on that test and follow politically-formulated standards and methods instead of allowing them to be creative and reach students however possible.

[gravity]

27. What other way to you measure teacher success?

I do agree that there are major drawbacks to using standardized tests, but they do have some benefits.

I think they should be a factor in judging performance, but not the only factor.

[ulysses]

30. student progress.

I teach students with special needs and who often don't make the grade on those tests. They come to me 2-3 grade levels behind in reading and/or math - I'm supposed to be penalized for not moving a child with a learning disability ahead faster than his non-disabled counterparts? Let me know now, because I have a child of my own to provide for, and as much as I enjoy working with my kids, I'll go ahead and get my general ed cert so that I have a shot at some of that standardized testing love.

[gravity]

34. I agree

[ulysses]

35. with what?

That I should get out of teaching special ed?

[gravity]

40. Measuring based on progress

[ulysses]

25. the issue is in identifying who needs to go,

not in getting rid of them once identified.

[gravity]

28. That's what I meant

[ulysses]

33. ok, then.

Yes, it's a more complicated thing than can be done from DC.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Let's begin by being honest

Bad teachers are not the problem. Bad administrators, on the other hand, never get the negative attention they so deserve. :)

[ProfessorGAC]

42. And There's Too Many Of Them

Far too many districts (at least here in Illinois) are bloated at the top.

An Example:
A principal and two asst. principals, plus a staff of 6 for high school, plus princpal and asst. principal in middle school and a staff of 5, plus a principal and asst. principal for each of the two grade schools, and on top of that a superintendent, and his staff of coordinators and administrators.

All in a district that covers a township of 6100. 16 Administrators and a staff of almost 25 for 1400 kids? That's ridiculous!

You could get rid of half of them, move the office staff into the schools, and take that difference in pay and divide it up among the teachers.
GAC

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Same deal here

But most of our administrators are in the central office. I'd rather see them in the schools.

Here's a good one. My district just contracted with a woman to run HR. They are paying her $300,000. But she isn't an employee, she is a contractor and isn't getting any benefits, so it's okay. LOL

[ulysses]

47. back up.

:kick:

[ulysses]

48. sorry to keep kicking, but I'm trying to plan my family's economic future here.

If staying in special ed is going to cost me part of my potential earnings before long, I'd like to know as soon as possible so that I can make other plans.

[KG]

50. the fact that some kids may not be learning has little to do with teachers and much

to do from forces outside the classroom: radical changes in the american social structure.

teachers are a simply convenient target. and considering the working conditions and insulting salaries for a job that requires a degree, i'm surprised that anybody would want to make a career of public school education.

even you, uly, ya crazy bastid.

[ulysses]

51. the masochism helps, yes.

;-) Thanks, brother.

[LWolf]

52. Part of the reform

will include "different paths" to licensing.

Which will mean that any warm body who attended college for any reason will teach.

For less pay, of course.

The only way to fill those spots is to open the door to those with fewer skills and qualifications, for less pay.

Once that is done, the rules can be rewritten again, making teaching not a career, but a short term of public service.