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I Have Ambivalent Feelings about the Argument on DU over Obama’s Selection of Rick Warren

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:10 PM
Original message
I Have Ambivalent Feelings about the Argument on DU over Obama’s Selection of Rick Warren
First of all I am in full agreement that gays should have all the rights that other people have, including marriage. I do not feel that heterosexuals are superior to gays in any way. And I have never in my life said anything demeaning about a person for being gay.

Does that mean that I fully appreciate their feelings about the discrimination that they face? Of course not. I think that I have a reasonably good idea, since I know what it is like to be discriminated against, but I don’t claim to fully know what it is like to be in their shoes – though I would like to have a better understanding of it.


About people who are against gay marriage

I do not believe, however, that everyone who is against gay marriage is an anti-gay bigot. By the same token, I don’t believe that everyone who is “pro-life” is an anti-woman bigot – though I am pro-choice; I don’t believe that everyone who is in favor of the Iraq War and occupation is a warmonger who hates Iraqis – though I am passionately against that war; and I don’t believe that everyone who is against universal health insurance takes pleasure in seeing other people suffer – though I believe that everyone should have the right to decent health care.

One explanation that I sometimes use, in my own head at least, to explain people who hold views that are adamantly opposed to mine, is ignorance. Think about it. DUers are, on average, not only much more progressive/liberal than most other people, but they are also on average much better informed. I believe that ignorance explains a great deal. Actually, we are all ignorant to some extent. Consequently, we ALL hold at least some views that are wrong, simply out of ignorance. Some people who have been repeatedly told that legalizing gay marriage will ruin their own marriage or destroy civilization actually believe it. If I believed that, I’d be against gay marriage too. Some people who have been repeatedly told that we have to fight the Iraqis over there, or else they’ll come over here and kill us, actually believe that. No wonder they are against withdrawing our forces from Iraq.

Consider racial prejudices in the days of slavery. Even Abraham Lincoln, who was very much against slavery, a great President, and a very empathetic and intelligent human being, believed that black people were inferior to white people. Why? My explanation for that is ignorance. The great majority of white Americans in those days were woefully ignorant about black people. It is my belief that there is nothing that better helps to overcome prejudices than exposure to the objects of one’s prejudices. For, exposure to the objects of one’s prejudice helps to cure ignorance. And look how far we’ve come with respect to racial prejudice in this country over the past 200 years.

This does not mean that I excuse that kind of ignorance. We should all work to overcome our ignorance. An ignorant nation is a nation that is likely to tear itself apart, and it is one that is susceptible to tyranny. And some people are willfully ignorant. It is not a black and white issue – there are many degrees of ignorance. But still, I think that there is a distinct difference between someone who holds different views than mine out of ignorance and someone who holds different views than mine out of hatred and bigotry. And I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt – until they show me that they don’t deserve that benefit.


On Obama’s choice of Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration

I am disappointed that Obama picked Rick Warren to deliver the invocation. There are several things that I have been disappointed with Obama for. Initially I was unhappy about what I considered his denigration of the Democratic Party in his book, “The Audacity of Hope” – which is a big reason why he was not my first, second or third choice for the Democratic nomination. I compared his relative lack of emphasis on fighting poverty unfavorably with that of John Edwards. I am disappointed whenever he puts what I consider to be too much value on “bipartisanship”. I was disappointed when he spoke of escalating the war in Afghanistan. I was very disappointed that he voted for the FISA bill (HR 6304) that I believe greatly injured our Fourth Amendment. And I was very unhappy that he said he was considering going back on his campaign pledge to reverse the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy. I am more upset about some of these things than I am about Obama choosing Rick Warren, not because I don’t care about gay rights, but because I consider some of these things to have longer term policy implications than picking a speaker for a two minute speech, especially since it seems unlikely that Warren will voice his bigotry during that speech.

Yet despite all this, I still worked in Obama’s campaign, I was thrilled when he was elected, and I am still hopeful that he will have a very productive presidency. The fact of the matter is that, despite all my criticisms of Obama I also see many positive things about him, which I have voiced many times on DU.

So given all these somewhat contradictory views towards Obama’s actions, how would I sum up my views towards him in general? That is not easy to say. When I’m feeling relatively good towards him I tell myself that the actions with which I most disagree do not represent the real Barack Obama. I tell myself that it is necessary for him to do or say some of these things in order to establish credibility with “Middle America”. I tell myself that it will be necessary for him to “give in” or compromise on some important issues, in order to be able to deal more effectively with other issues. After all, that is what politics is all about.

But at other times I become exasperated by some of these things. Sure, it is necessary to compromise. But it is also necessary to lead. I don’t want a President that will go too far in accepting the status quo, just in order to maintain his credibility and get re-elected. Sometimes Presidents need to or ought to take risks. That is what leadership is about. Most important, a President needs to address and combat the ignorance of the American people – by educating them – rather than pander to it.


Conclusion

Obama’s rightward leanings have bothered me more since the election – simply because there appears now to be less need for them. Yet, sometimes I think that I’m unrealistic to think that he could suddenly move leftwards following an election (though usually I think that he has actually moved rightwards).

Though Obama’s selection of Warren doesn’t bother me as much as some other things he’s done, still it is upsetting. Why select a politically active bigot to give an invocation at your inaugural address? Is that really necessary in order to gain the approval of “Middle America”? And most important, what does this say about the way he’s likely to govern?

But the truth of the matter and the bottom line is – and I really hate to say this – that I really do not know how Obama is going to govern. Maybe some of his actions that I most disagree with will turn out to be motivated by tactical concerns, meant to position himself to accomplish really great things. Maybe he’ll get us out of Iraq, give us our first truly universal health insurance system in our history, close down Guantanamo while arranging to try all our remaining “War on Terror” prisoners in a court of law, end torture, steer us out of a depression, and make progress towards improving gay rights as well. If he does all that, his picking of Rick Warren to give the invocation will seem quite minor by comparison.

In other words, my opinion of Barack Obama is very far from settled. I plan to criticize him when I disagree with him and praise him when I like what he does. But my opinion of him really won’t begin to solidify until he at least begins his Presidency and we start to see some results.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. He thinks Jews and Catholics will burn in hell. He's anti-science and pro-evolution. nt
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm a lesbian and I agree with just about every word of your OP.
Good post.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. And you
are one of the most intelligent and articulate posters on this topic (and others in general), in my opinion, and I can't offer higher praise to the OP than that.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. That's good to know
Thank you.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you for taking the time to articulate all of that
I agree with the disspaointments and the huzzahs, and that we could be blown away by what his term will look like, and the smaller concessions will be overshadowed by the goodness that can be accomplished.
I choose to try and lokk for the sun behind the clouds.

- and while I totally agree with you about gay marriage, prolife etc and that I have no real way of understanding being the target of that kind of bigotry...it doesn;t mean I don't empathize and wish that this wasn;t such a slap int he face to many of us here..

- and by putting it all in context, a 2 minute prayer means nothing to me compared to what needs to be done to rebuild our country after the looting of the bushies.

all in all very well put! :clap:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Thank you
Let's hope that Obama is up to meeting the tremendous challenges that he will be facing.
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nevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. well said
I think your thoughts likely represent the thinking of a great majority of progressives.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe as you do, that many time beliefs are held
due to ignorance of a particular subject.

Thanks for the well stated post on the subject.

:hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I'm glad you liked it
:hi:
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sureiachan Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Agreement
Thank you for this post; I appreciate your standpoint and while I don't agree with you on all your points of disagreement, I am able to do so without incident. The strongest agreement I have with you is that we all need to wait until policies are enacted / put down and promises are kept / broken before we can assess what PE Obama is up to.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Weak analogy
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 12:26 AM by rpannier
I do not believe, however, that everyone who is against gay marriage is an anti-gay bigot. By the same token, I don’t believe that everyone who is “pro-life” is an anti-woman bigot

Someone who is pro-life is NOT anti-woman. Someone who believes that the laws regarding husband-and-wife should be what they were in the mid 19th Century is anti-woman.

That is a better analogy to gay marriage than abortion is.

Someone who is against gay marriage is either anti-gay because they hate gays or they fear them (or both)-- that includes the PE and the incoming Veep. Separate but equal is still discrimination and it is fueled by fear and hate.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I don't think you need to hate or fear gays to be against gay marriage
Many Christians believe that nations are punished according to the sins of their inhabitants. If you believe that God will punish the United States for allowing gay marriage, then it makes perfect sense to be opposed to gay marriage without actually hating or fearing gays themselves.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ah, so it's God who's the homophobe. I see.
And the idea that nations are punished because of the sins of some of their citizens echoes Falwell, Robertson and Hagee, and frankly, those aren't people I think Obama should give he time of day.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Then why do they ignore all the rules about them?
Jesus dispised divorce and called remarriage 'whoremongering'. But I don't see religionists paniced that God, who actuall stated his hatred of divorce, will punish America for that huge divorce rate. Why is that?
The old testament contains hundreds of rules dictating the behavior of married heterosexual couples that no one follows but the most Orthodox of Jews? Why don't they follow those? They are law, stated law. And yet none of them has a ritual bath, none of them avoid 'unclean' women. Why not? They were told to.
And St Paul from the NT says women should never speak in the gathering. And yet I see it all the time, religionists from Sarah Palin to Michelle Obama, speaking in church without regard to the law of God. Will America be punished? Why not? It is written, clearly and without question, that women are subservient to men. And they should be silent.
I say this to your self proclaimed christians: practice a shred of your own law, take the log out of your own eye, then we can talk about the speck in my eye. And he who would cast a stone best be without sin. Without sin. Is that you? Sinless? Is that your preacher? Is he pure? Or does that religion teach that only one was spotless, and that one refused to ever cast any stone or accusation at anyone, even the ones who murdered him. But I guess the christians of today have many who are superior to the Christ. They claim as much with nearly every action they make.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. step back from the ledge, tone down on the hate
I have not heard many preachers, nor met many Christians who are as judgemental as you just were in that post.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yeah they just hate and fear those who have specific questions
based on actual knowlege of the faith they don't follow. They have to come in and declare that God's law is all about others, and they refuse to address the hypocrisy of the hundreds of laws they reject that apply to themselves. They can spit, but they can not explain. Ask a question and they run, because they know they are not righteous. They know they speak division and seperation and they know who is the author of those things according to their own religion. The religion they use like an accesory, rather than actually practice. Fear of your self, hate of your self, the inability to stand and explain yourself. What religionists fear and hate is knowlege. They run when they face the truth.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. And some people believed, as Christians, that allowing black people to have equal rights...
was a sin, because they believed black people carried the Mark of Cain, and many other similar beliefs. Were they not racists?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Many would disagree with you on that
The term "pro-life" does not really mean pro-life. It is a euphamism for wanting to criminalize abortion and make it unavailable to women who need it. Some people who use the term may have something else in mind, but with respect to Supreme Court appointments, that's what it really means. Many believe therefore that "pro-life" is anti-woman -- and I agree that in many, perhaps most cases it is. But I don't believe that it always is. People have many different reasons for having the opinions that they do, and ignorance often plays a prominent role.

And don't you think that fear is often based on ignorance?
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. emotions are so stirred up, we're having trouble listening to each other here
Thank You TFC for an excellent essay.

Thank you for expressing yourself so well--the contradictions in this whole mess make it hard to sift. I appreciated gaining more clarity from your essay, as well as seeing thoughts I've posted myself put into crisper words.

Of course no one here is saying they like this situation but it seems we're all so stirred up that we're misreading each other, thinking that if someone is NOT screaming hatred for the liars and sanctimonious haters, it can only mean they are comfortable with this christofascist "blessing" the inauguration. Isn't that just another version of black and white thinking? And ironically, isn't it The Conservatives' black and white thinking that vexes us so?

Personally, I'm trying very hard to get past my disgust with the religious rightwing as a whole. It would be easy to rant and stand on my 15 minute soapbox, venting my loathing all over the place and feeling as if I'm empowered by the rush, but after years of doing that, I notice it doesn't help make anything better. As you say, it's the ignorance that explains them, and also frustrates us. For intelligent, intellectually curious people, sometimes that arrogant ignorance is the most infuriating thing of all. But anger shows us what we don't want; by contrast, it can show us yet again what we DO want--government that works for us all, not against us (to quote Obama). It can motivate useful action, which is good.


I've also tried to express my thinking that the uproar this Warren thing is causing CAN have productive results. The point I have been trying to highlight is that BECAUSE this is bringing the issue of gay rights into focus so intensely, it brings opportunities for further awareness, for more people to get with the program: that GLBT people are people. (Yes many will remain willfully blind; fine, let them go their way, even though that's not easy to let go of.)

At the same time, the opportunity is here for more people to see the hate and hypocrisy that these sick and very UNspiritual people deal in. Who knows--maybe through the heightened awareness this is catalyzing, Obama et al will see too.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Thank you Blanche
I didn't mean to imply that ignorance is the only factor. There is also hatred and the need to feel superior to other people. How much of which, and in what combinations is so difficult to tell.

I think you're right that the uproar could have productive results:

Progressives and, in particular, the gay and lesbian community criticized the president-elect's decision to give such a prominent role to a pastor whose views on torture, gay rights, and stem cell research don't align with Obama's stated agenda. Indeed, the backlash against the Warren selection has been swift and fierce, putting Obama's inauguration team largely on the defensive.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/18/obamas-talking-points-on_n_152056.htm


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm not at all ambivalent. It's a SPECTACULAR opportunity
for people to get up to speed. I'd like to think I wouldn't piss on Rick Warren if he were on fire. He IS a human being, though and I probably would. Still, this porcine, unctuous, authoritarian manipulator being thrust in America's face is a GOOD THING.

WHAT IS HE DOING THERE? WHO IS THIS GUY? Why is he in my face? Who wants him "crowned" as an international go-to guy? What is Christian Reconstructionism/Dominionism? Who is into this shit? WHY? The answers to these and other questions will provide an education to those who seek it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I like that way of looking at it
And people are indeed telling Obama how they feel about this:

Progressives and, in particular, the gay and lesbian community criticized the president-elect's decision to give such a prominent role to a pastor whose views on torture, gay rights, and stem cell research don't align with Obama's stated agenda. Indeed, the backlash against the Warren selection has been swift and fierce, putting Obama's inauguration team largely on the defensive...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/18/obamas-talking-points-on_n_152056.html
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. You said it!
:applause:
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. I like what you said. To me, it is much more important to weigh what he
has actually done as a Senator and not who he picks to speak at an inauguration. Life is never (well, almost never) black and white. Life is a long, sometimes contradictory series of nuances.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Isn't that the truth
It will be very interesting to see how Obama handles all this once he assumes the Presidency. He will be facing a monumental task. Let's hope he's up to it.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Very well thought out post
Thanks for sharing. And I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Thank you
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. Are people who are against interracial marriages racist?
and I mean as a matter of public policy, not necessarily for themselves.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I see where you're going with this
And that's a fair question.

I think a good part of the problem in discussing these things is that we have labels like "racist" and "homophobe" -- and I use those terms myself -- which are meant to put people into what we consider black and white categories, when in fact this isn't a purely black and white issue. There are different degrees of racism and homophobia and different causes for them, and I think that by lumping everyone together into a single category like that we make it sound simpler than it really is.

When I said in the OP that I don't believe that everyone who is against gay marriage is an anti-gay bigot, my intent was not to get into an argument over definitions -- rather it was to state my belief about motivations. What I was saying was that I believe that at least some people who are against gay marriage -- I don't know how many -- hold that attitude out of ignorance rather than out of malice. That's really all I wanted to say about that. I can't prove it, and I may be wrong. It's very difficult to know what motivates other people.

I do believe that a person who is against gay marriage today is less likely to be motivated by hatred towards gays than a person who is against inter-racial marriage is likely to be motived by hatred. I believe that only because I think that there is more potential today for ignorance about gay marriage than there is for ignorance about inter-racial marriage.

There are a couple of reasons for that. One is that gay marriage is a relatively new concept for a lot of people. And the other reason is that we are bombarded with anti-gay propaganda telling us of all the terrible things that could happen if gays were allowed to marry. So, partly for these reasons I believe that opposition to gay marriage today can be motivated by ignorance rather than hatred. By the same token, opposition to inter-racial marriage, say two hundred years ago, would more likely be based on ignorance than it would be today.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. The invitation of Warren is disrespectful.
Not for just gay people, but for women, people who appreciate science and for people who respect the rule of law in America.

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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
30. Read his legislation
Thats how you know what poli's are going to do. I am a little bothered that we spend so much time analyzing "poli-theatre" and not enough time discussing policy. You can not understand "poli-theatre" without reading legislation. It would be a little easier to identify trolls if we were more policy oriented.

I used to read a lot of post about how we don't know about Obama because he has not ever sponsored legislation. This is not true, which means people making these claims did not bother to google. Use the google. Read the bill, not a summary.

Glad to see that you are not dogmatic about the reasons and motivations for attitudes, beliefs, ideas, and values. Ignorance is a very large factor and related to both fear and hate, you are correct. Attitudes, beliefs, ideas, and values are not particularly stable. This is because they vary in strength and development. Many evangelicals believe that homosexuality is wrong because everyone in there life has always told them that the bible says so. This is an example of an undeveloped belief because multiple specific elements of the cognitive schema are missing. This specific belief also tends to be on the weaker side of the spectrum, meaning that the person is relatively "open to influence".

Additionally, attitudes, beliefs, ideas, and values change dramatically throughout the life-course. In general, people will hold more liberal attitudes during younger years and become more conservative in their older age. This is true for region of the country, degree of urbanization, and basic population demographics.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Great points
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WilliamHenryMee Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
32. Will he restore Trust in Government ?
The post and all the comments are really good to read. Of course all of "Time for change"'s posts are thought provoking.

How will Obama govern? That is a great discussion.

Will he restore Trust in Government (a topic I wrote about in: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WilliamHenryMee).

We know that the Bush Administration premise upon entering office was to "undo" everything that Clinton had done because "he had sex with a woman in the oval office." Right or wrong undo it ---because it has to do with a taboo subject for Republicans. If it had been sex with a male intern it would of been the norm as with Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho) and Rep. Foley (R-Florida). Or if it was a prostitute it would have been free market philosophy (Senator David Vitter---R-La.).

The family values crowd of the Republican Party is clearly morally bankrupt.

Maybe the Rick Warren gig is co-opting him and his 40 million book buyers into melding a workable governing style to get us through this economic malaise....
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