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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:45 AM
Original message
If Warren at the Inauguration Could Feed a Starving Child, Would You Let Him Speak?
A funny thing happened on the way to the election. The war in Iraq, which was supposed to be the defining issue of the election, took a back seat to the economy. The United States has been in recession for over a year. The Bush administration tried to hide this fact, but we have eyes in our heads. We could see. Home foreclosure rates in the early part of this year more than doubled from 2007. The U.S. lost 1.2 million jobs in 2008 and unemployment is now 6.5%. Forty-six million Americans, including nine million children have no health insurance. Twenty-eight million people are using food stamps to buy groceries—the highest number ever. The price of food and other necessities keeps rising, even as real wages keep going down for everyone except those in the very highest income brackets. Wealth disparity in our country has been getting worse since the late 1970s. The problems that accompany income disparity----depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, teenaged pregnancy, domestic violence, increased mortality from violence and chronic disease---continue to rise, particularly in areas which have extremes of poverty, like the south.

Barack Obama was elected, because the majority of Americans were fed up with the Republican culture of greed that allows business to feed at the trough of the public tax dollar, while condemning children to poverty. Paul Krugman wrote eloquently on the subject last winter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1

“Poverty in early childhood poisons the brain.” That was the opening of an article in Saturday’s Financial Times, summarizing research presented last week at the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

As the article explained, neuroscientists have found that “many children growing up in very poor families with low social status experience unhealthy levels of stress hormones, which impair their neural development.” The effect is to impair language development and memory — and hence the ability to escape poverty — for the rest of the child’s life.

Snip

L. B. J. declared his “War on Poverty” 44 years ago. Contrary to cynical legend, there actually was a large reduction in poverty over the next few years, especially among children, who saw their poverty rate fall from 23 percent in 1963 to 14 percent in 1969.

But progress stalled thereafter: American politics shifted to the right, attention shifted from the suffering of the poor to the alleged abuses of welfare queens driving Cadillacs, and the fight against poverty was largely abandoned.

In 2006, 17.4 percent of children in America lived below the poverty line, substantially more than in 1969. And even this measure probably understates the true depth of many children’s misery.


Imagine that. Almost a ten percent drop in the rate of children living in poverty in six years, because one president cared to do something about the problem. Since then, no one has had the passion of LBJ, who was mentored by FDR during the New Deal. The historians have taken care to sully LBJ’s image. He is the Vietnam War president. Period. Never mind that he decided not to run again in 1968 so that he could end the war. He would have achieved that goal, except the great war criminal Dr. Henry Kissinger, who was supposed to be handling the negotiations, told the South Vietnamese not to go along, because if they could get Nixon elected instead of Humphrey, he would get them a better deal. The powers that be want us to forget that LBJ gave us Medicare and the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act and the War on Poverty. They want us to forget that a president out of Congress, a former Senator and a shrewd deal maker with a Vice President who was also a former Senator was able to pass landmark legislation that revolutionized this country.

The powers that be are scared to death that Obama/Biden will be another LBJ/Humphrey.

The Democrats and Obama were elected with a very clear mandate. The number one issue was not the war. It was not the corruption of the previous administration. It was not “values”. It was the economy. Those voting for the Democrats wanted to see economic justice. Workers deserve a fair wage for work performed in a safe environment with assurances that they can express grievances without fear of retaliation. They deserve some measure of job security, as long as they can work together with the owners to keep their company profitable. The U. S. government should never do anything to make it more profitable for a company to leave this country. Voters wanted to know that agencies charged with regulating the safety of the (overpriced) foods and drugs which they buy are safe. They wanted to know that the people writing their mortgage were giving them the best deal they could.

These are not “fringe” issues. They do not affect only white people or Black people or folks with kids or residents of the city or the country. You do not have to be a citizen to care about economic justice. Straight and gay are affected equally by workers’ rights. So are men and women and young and old.

A funny thing happened on the way to the inauguration. Distractions started popping up right and left. Those who had schemed to get rich off the labor of the middle class had no intention of giving up any of their power. So, they started spreading the word to a certain group of workers---right of center, “clings to their guns and religion”--- that Obama’s agenda of ending poverty was a godless communist plot .

That is where Rick Warren comes in.

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2005/06/Evangelicals-Embrace-New-Global-Priorities.aspx

Usually when the words "evangelical" and "poverty" appear in the same sentence, the minister at the helm is Jim Wallis, Ron Sider, or Tony Campolo. And when Rick Warren is written and talked about, it's almost never in the context of any political issue.

But Warren, who is the pastor of Saddleback Church, a megachurch in Lake Forest, California and the author of the blockbuster book "The Purpose-Driven Life," is diving into the issue of Christian responsibility to combat global poverty.

The move took the form of an open letter campaign to President Bush, launched June 3 by Warren together with heavyweights Billy Graham and British evangelical John Stott and sent to over 150,000 evangelicals nationwide.

"I deeply believe that if we as evangelicals remain silent and do not speak up in defense of the poor, we lose our credibility and our right to witness about God's love for the world," Warren wrote in his appeal for participants in the campaign.

A top evangelical leader, Warren's support lends powerful weight to the cause of ending global poverty. Barna polls have found that Warren comes in near the top of the list when pastors are asked who they feel is the most influential evangelical leader. He was listed first in the "Time" magazine list of the 25 most influential evangelicals, along with other more traditionally political evangelical leaders such as NAE president Ted Haggard and Southern Baptist Richard Land.


Through his appearance at the inauguration, Warren will negate Sarah Palin’s socialist charges. Those who fear that the country is heading towards godless communism will be reassured. God does not look kindly on wealth disparity, his presence will say. Jesus smiles when we alleviate poverty.

Obama has invited another minister to speak at the inauguration. A veteran of the civil rights movement, Rev. Joseph Lowery. Rev. Lowery has spoken out in support of gay clergy and gay marriage, and he represents a much more liberal Church.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/religion/post/2008/12/60178434/1

Obviously, he and the Southern Baptist Warren do not see eye to eye on homosexuality. What about poverty?

Here is a Fox interview with Rev. Lowery, who issued stinging criticism of the Bush administration at Rosa Parks’ funeral earlier this year.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184603,00.html

Lowery: But right now we're witnessing the widening of the gap. There's something wrong when a handful of people have more than they'll ever need while millions of people have less than they always need. The gap is widening. There's something wrong.

Snip

But what I'm concerned about is public policy. We need a public policy that addresses the needs of the poor, that works toward full employment, that develops more opportunities for training, for job development, job training, for health care. We've got 48 million to 50 million people in this country with no health insurance. That's a weapon of mass destruction.


President-elect Obama is about to do what LBJ did. He is going to declare war on poverty. LBJ was able to use the memory of the slain President Kennedy to get revolutionary legislation through Congress. Obama will need overwhelming public support. Big business will call the workers’ right agenda “communism”. In a country like the United States, where over three quarters of adults consider themselves Christians, this can be a deal breaker. However, if you look to the south, the Liberation Theologists have worked political miracles in Latin American countries. If President Obama can get enough prominent ministers to support his economic plan, the Republicans can go fuck themselves.

For those who insist that it is intolerable to have anyone who is opposed to homosexuality speak about anything at the inauguration, consider that half of the Christians in the United States are Baptists or Catholics, and both Churches are intolerant of not just homosexuality, but also birth control, women’s right and a whole host of issues. Are members of both religions to be denied the right to speak in public at all about any issue, even when they have the power to do good, because they hold opinions that others find offensive? I think that the death penalty is murder. Can I insist that anyone who ever thinks that the death penalty is ever justified be prevented from ever speaking out on any topic, since I believe that person is a murderer? Can a vegetarian insist that a meat eater never speak out, because he believes that killing and eating an animal is murder?

On the other hand, if Rev. Warren is really serious about devoting himself to the issue of poverty, he will eventually have to make a decision. Which is more important? Work aimed at "curing" gays or the much more important task of alleviating the suffering of the world's poor. He can not continue to do both, because as this episode will have already shown him, one detracts from his ability to be effective at the other. If he is a real Christian, I do not think that there is any question which he will pick, once he is part of an effective anti-poverty campaign. The rewards will be too great.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. "When the protesters came, we fed them water and donuts"
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. And then...
"Jesus changed the water into wine and the donuts into Big Macs" -Jeff 30:9-97
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Water into a coke or orange soda
He better have changed some of those donuts into fries.

I love heavily salted fries.



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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Why do you hate Whopper Virgins? n/t
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
90. What do I look like ?
A bloody vending machine ?



:rofl:


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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
103. That just PISSES ME OFF!
You wouldn't like me when I'm angry!



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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Do not compare free speech with giving this man a national stage...
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 03:55 AM by Solon
talk about insulting! :grr:

ON EDIT: You do realize that Warren himself used "free speech" to advocate for the passing of Proposition 8, right? How fucking clueless can you be?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. I understand the anger, but the personal insult is going too far. nt
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Yes. The personal insults delivered by Prop. 8...
...to tens of thousands of Californians did indeed go too far.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. I predict few if any, will read this diatribe
False premise.

"Barack Obama was elected, because the majority of Americans were fed up with the Republican culture of greed that allows business to feed at the trough of the public tax dollar, while condemning children to poverty."

Rather broad brush you have there. And the main problem is you're no Picasso.

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. Enough with the personal insults. nt
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
111. I addressed the content, not the person
However, somehow, I'm not surprised you don't understand that. I made no personal comments and therefore also made no personal insult.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. "And the main problem is you're no Picasso."
In denial much?

"I'm not surprised you don't understand that."

Give me a break.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. Hey, you're no Einstein
Edited on Mon Dec-22-08 06:53 AM by Cronus Protagonist
And if that's an insult to you, perhaps you ought to deflate your ego a little, because, like the other poster not being Picasso, you are no Einstein, and that's just a fact.

I'm no Einstein either, nor Picasso, if that helps you get it. Still, I don't paint an entire election with a flawed argument, nor do I attack people for injecting a little humor into their postings. Lighten up a little, will you?

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. Lighten up? I am just asking you to bring reason to your post
Does personal attack contribute in any way to discussion though? When you personally attacked the author of the post, you betrayed your main argument.

Insults are not the same as humor.

Bring humor and reason to a post but leave personal attacks out of it.

"if that helps you get it"
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
71. And you're no Spock. Your Vulcan logic is failing you, Cronus. But you are living up to
your tag of Protagonist.

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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
113. Thanks!
And I never claimed to be Spock, and the false premise is clear. You can agree or disagree with it, but it clearly is not objective, accurate or true.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. There is no difference between Huckabee and Warren on any issue
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 03:58 AM by rpannier
Did you vote Huckabee last spring.

Back in the late 90'sit was Huckabee that said,"When are gonna stop laming 7 yaar olds living in their cars for economic problems."

As to your post on Warren...No.Because people like him always come with strings attached and that's not gonna change.
Spare me your comments about how I'm an awfulperson or whatever.

I live in east Asia. I've met North Koreans, been to Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, China and Thailand. I have seen abject poverty and worked with people who live well below the margins.
Dealing with people like Warren is like inviting a bear into your cave in the middle of winter because you want to sleep near his warm fur.
He will eventually eat you. Because that's what bears do.
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SoCalNative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. People like Warren
disgust me. They co-opt real spirituality to force their agenda on the weak who know no better.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
86. in op's title, one doesn't hinge on the other. As a church of Christianity, Warren
SHOULD BE DOING this kind of work. He's late to the table. Why? Because he's a sanctimonious bag of shit. A Christian's mission is to make sure nobody suffers. To assume that genuine outrage must be sublimated because a dickhead came late to a catastrophe is not right.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Are you suggesting we feed Rick Warren to starving children?
Cuz I could get behind that.
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Mmmm...
Soylent Rick.



(More fat then pork but tastes like chicken)
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'll get behind that
:thumbsup:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
69. !
:thumbsup:
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
91. Warren...
...the other white meat.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Republicans are very afraid...that's why I'm seeing a commercial
here in Nebraska saying that the auto industry should get nothing and tying in Blago and "union bosses." They don't want a middle class. Union busting and shipping jobs out of the country is there goal.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Agree the GOP is afraid. And they are not going to like losing their God monopoly.
Clever Freepers would be over here right now pretending to be "concerned Democrats" who care more about Warren at the inauguration than they do about the Iraq War or about starving children or about the health care crisis or about global warming or about torture or about the murder of Bush's enemies or about anything on earth. The way Clever Freepers were over here during the primary pretending to be Obama supporters posting about the Clintonista and cattle futures and Vince Foster.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. You're saying the Dems are now adopting the Dominionist Warren,
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 05:18 AM by Hannah Bell
& that's big points for the Dems?

Sure, if you want the Democratic Party to be known as the party of theocracy, to continue Bush's bullshit merging of church & state.

Not a good strategy if you have any respect for the ideals of the party.

oh, & if the dems adopt warren, you can bet the pubs will get out the word that warren's not to be trusted.

i've already seen it, starting with warren's CFR membership. Globalist, wingers don't like that.
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sureiachan Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. Interesting
Let's assume for a moment that the Dems "adopt" Warren by letting him give a 2 minute prayer. According to this line of thought here, there will be two ripples in society.

On the one hand, PE Obama has shown that he is willing to give equal time to people who don't share his views on everything. This will allow him to gain some footing with them, perhaps shaking the tree and prying loose some of the people who do not side with Pastor Warren based on Faith, but on Fear. At the very least, it shows that he is willing to work with people to be inclusive, so that everyone has a voice.

On the other hand, some of Pastor Warren's more flaky supporters as well as some of his partisan supporters now decide he's a liability and drop some of their support for him. Warren becomes less powerful as a result and because we've invested no more than a few minutes, it's easy for us to drop him as well, resulting in someone not quite as powerful as before because his most zealous and crazed supporters may now see him as tainted goods.

This could turn out to go very well for everyone but the Pastor and his agenda, though I don't hold out a lot of faith for that. I'm more of the mind that this was a political miscalculation and that the gains will be minimal, but one can always hope for the best results ...

In closing, I just want to say that this is the kind of diplomacy we are wanting in the Middle East, the winning of the hearts and minds of people who want to exterminate us, the crazy radicals who have stolen a religion of peace ... and the way we do that is by acceptance and showing them that we can empathize and see things on their level ... invite them over to see it's not so bad ... and gain trust and respect by showing the same. You may never win the support of the crazy leaders who are in it primarily for their own personal goals, but the rank-and-file gets it in their head that rabid and zealous support isn't founded and maybe - just maybe - it's easier and more satisfying to live in peace and tolerance (if not acceptance) than it is to waste their lives with hate. I don't see how this is much different at the end of the day ...
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Think again
if this is how diplomacy is to be handled we are in deep waters. Millions are angry. Obama is not 'we' he is Obama and we are we. You can not come in and allow the leader of one side to slander the other in a spotlight of honor while giving zero voice to the other side and expect to call that diplomacy. Diplomacy means keeping everybody talking. Obama's way has everybody screaming. Diplomacy means speaking to and with all sides, not giving a bully platform to one side and the cold shoulder to the other.
And a diplomat would most certainly not pick a leader of a faction that has just finished doing great harm to the other side to celebrate that victory along with his own. Good diplomacy does not set off fires of anger. It makes peace and understanding. To be very clear with you, Obama constantly says he's opening a dialouge, but then only one side speaks. When is he going to do what he says? I'll sit down with Rick or Donnie or any of Obama's anti-minority man friends. Any day of the week, any hour of the day, and the dialouge can continue. My people have been joined with good chruch people in that effort for decades. Warren and Obama have nothing to do with it. Never have. When will they?
If this is about making dialouge, then at long last let us see that happen. Warren making his prayer speech is not a dialouge at all. It is a wanking of Warren. A rich, fat, white, hate preacher. Gluttony. He should look it up.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
102. Obama has a pro-gay marriage minister and an anti-gay marriage minister. This is a dialogue
that few in the press seem to want to talk about. They would rather talk about Warren. Why is that?
I think I feel my next journal coming on...
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
72. Hear. Hear. sureiachan makes an excellent point about the diplomacy. Bluenorthwest,
not so much.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Diplomacy is what you use when talking to equals
eg a sovereign state talking to another sovereign state.

Obama is about to be president. Warren is a private individual. He doesn't deserve diplomacy any more than you would deserve 'diplomacy' from the IRS, if you decided to stop paying taxes.

By giving Warren time, you are making his point of view as 'valid', politically, as the non-bigoted one. This is the equivalent of saying "we'll teach creationism in science classes as well as evolution, to show that we're willing to talk to the other side".
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sureiachan Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #75
120. I don't agree
Arguably, Warren is the current top of the heap of evangelicals, or so I've been hearing. As a result, you have underneath him a veritable legion of people who will follow his words and actions. But not every person under him (by simple human nature) walks in lockstep. There will be variances in terms of zeal and emulation. If our leader, the top of our heap, makes overtones of peace and his followers show they are accepting and not the demons they fear, then it is possible, if not likely that the more moderate of Warren's followers will begin to question their own motivations as to why they believe what they believe. Do they believe that their leader's interpretation of the other side is accurate, or is their room for their own understanding in light of their "enemies'" actions in trying to reach out and listen.

You can't have it both ways. Either Warren is simply a private citizen and has no pull other than his own single viewpoints, or he is influential enough that giving his views any kind of legitimacy (no matter how little) is a dangerous example to set for others who think like him. So either he is, as you say, undeserving of diplomacy, because our actions will have no affect on others who consider themselves to be followers, supporters and subordinates, or he is, as I say, deserving of diplomacy because we have the possibility of wrangling some of these people away by use of tolerance and reasonable action.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. I've seen that ad, too
And it makes me want to puke!
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. I found your post to be very thought provoking
and well thought-out!
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. I can guarantee you no child will be fed or brought out of poverty
without being preached to, without their parents being preached and forced to follow religion whether they want to or not.

How blind to their methods are you really?

I was born, raised, and live in one of the really impoverished areas in the south. What do these right wing people do to help the people in the southern part of the US get out of poverty? Not a damn thing. Any area that is controlled by right wing religious fundamentalists is a truly dire area to live in. The poverty is rampant. The crime is rampant. There are NO opportunities unless you want your "career" to be working at Wal-Mart...and that's IF you are lucky.

They tell you to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps then ban the sale of any boots that have straps on them. They lie to you. The cheat on their taxes so they don't have to pay one damn dime to make money hand over fist in this country. The pillage, plunder, rob, rape, kill, and steal to get what they want, all in the name of God. You don't have services in these areas like you do in the other parts of the country either.

They just take and take and take. They never give. They never help. They never do anything that doesn't involve more and more money for them and nothing for the poor.

I know. I know how they operate. I've seen it first hand. I know the results of trying to extend an olive branch to them. They take it and switch you with it, then they beat you into submission. There is no winning with them.

I know you are looking for some bright side to make this all ok, but it's not ok. It is never going to be ok.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
73. Very bitter of you, Jamastiene. I too live in the South and have seen some moving examples
of religious fundies doing good things for people who were not of their religious beliefs or religous at all.

I'm an agnostic, so I have no dog in this fight.

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. If uninviting him could prevent one gay child from committing suicide, would you uninvite him? n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 05:08 AM by ColbertWatcher
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. yep
:thumbsup:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
93. Thank you. n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. As long as we are doing hypotheticals, I think this one is fair. nt
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. One hell of a lot fairer and realistic than the bullshit one in the OP! n/t
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
94. Thank you, you two! n/t
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
45. absolutely,
or if it could convince one violent person from believing that under this administration GLBT individuals are not safe targets for violence: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28319437

The connection between words of hate and actions of hate is real.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
95. "The connection between words of hate and actions of hate is real." Yes it is. n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
50. Good point
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
96. Thank you. n/t
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
57. Perfect. Thank you.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
98. Thank you, love your signature! n/t
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
87. Excellent.
Thank you.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. You're welcome. n/t
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
101. Best answer yet.
:thumbsup:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. I don't know about "best" but thank you nonetheless! n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. The RW'ers will try and destroy OBAMA no matter what he does
I very much doubt that the people who fear PE Obama are going to be so easily reassured.

I also doubt this pastor or his community would withhold food from a starving child or not participate in broader assistance if he were not honored as he is being.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Rick Warren is a liability when it comes to feeding starving children. Have to lock up the food
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 05:08 AM by Hannah Bell
with him around. He'd rip it from their starving fingers, the big porker.

Rick: the Bible recommends suicide for gluttony. Get right with God.

Just joking, agent mike.

Seriously, we don't need rick warren to feed starving children.

One of the big reasons some of them are starving is we keep funding wars in their countries, for starters.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. LOL! Good one! n/t
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. And people like Warren profit from those wars. n/t
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
27. I don't think either side would give up their ground even if it does alleviate Poverty.
JMO.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Denying women abortions does not alleviate poverty, it creates poverty
Denying gay people the ability to create legal families does not alleviate poverty, it contributes to poverty. The facts are already in.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Umm, feeding people alleviates poverty.
I guess you would say the Pope causes poverty too? And most religious leaders in this country?

I'm an agnostic, but some anti-religion attitudes here are so obvious that it really turns me off to a cause that I believe in. Its beginning to feel just as obnoxious and toxic as the stuff that made me run from religion in the first place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Feeding people alleviates hunger, not poverty, but it's a start.
The Pope is a prince, he probably doen't hang with poor people very much.

I'm not anti-religion in the least. I'm anti-@ssholery. There are very fine religious working their heads off in my town in the area of homelessness and poverty. On the other hand, if you mess with my peeps, I don't care if you're in uniform or not, you're going to hear from me.

:)
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whoopingcrone Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Yes, I'd say that.
and, I suspect, so would the millions of children throughout the world
who are compelled by his, and those of the institution he directs',
policies and practices his, and those of the institution he directs', policies and practicesto be born to parents who cannot possibly feed them.
Vatican Budget? https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/vt.html
revenues: $310 million
expenditures: $307 million (2006)

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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
82. It's beginning to feel obnoxious and toxic as Free Republic. {nt}
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Is there some reason that Rick Warren is the key to alleviating poverty?
This one guy?

The only reason he's a big shot is because he has the support of big shots.

They fund him, if they withdraw the bucks, he's nobody.

If they want to alleviate poverty, they have the means.

They DON'T WANT TO. The AlleviAtion of poverty seriously cuts into profits.
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I know I'll offend folks here, but I honestly believe there is.
INGREDIENTS
3 1/2 lb of Warren shoulder
1 Tbsp olive or grapeseed oil
Salt, pepper, italian seasoning to taste
1 large yellow onion, chopped or sliced
4 cloves of garlic, peeled
1/2 cup of red wine
Several carrots, peeled and cut lengthwise

METHOD

1) Use a thick-bottomed covered pot (oven-proof if you intend to cook in oven), such as a dutch oven, just large enough to hold Warren and vegetables. Heat 1 Tbsp of oil on medium high heat (hot enough to sear the meat). Sprinkle and rub salt, pepper, and Italian seasoning all over the meat. Brown Warren in pot, all over, several minutes on each side. Don't move Warren while a side is browning, or he won't brown well.

2) When Warren is browned, lift up the meat and add garlic and chopped onion to the bottom of the pan. Let Warren sit on top of the onions. Add 1/2 cup of red wine. Cover. Bring to simmer and then adjust the heat down to the lowest heat possible to maintain a low simmer when covered (we cook our Warren on the warm setting of our electric range)*. Alternatively, you can cook Warren in a 225°F oven, once you have browned him on the stovetop, and brought the liquid to a simmer (make sure to use an oven proof pan).

3) Cook for 3 1/2 to 4 hours, until meat is tender. (If you are using a pressure cooker, cut the time by half). Near the end of the cooking, add carrots, cook until tender, about an additional 10 minutes.

Serves 40-50.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I don't like fatty, slimy meat.
But :>)
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
34. What kind of help does Warren provide the needy?
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 06:36 AM by Oak2004
"...Warren further entangles religion and treatment in his very own "Purpose-Driven Nation," Rwanda. He offered to extend an undisclosed amount of aid to the country if it adopted his bestselling book as an action plan for the nation, using churches as centers for capacity building and American evangelical leaders as medical and development advisors to the Rwandan parliament. The plan included the provision of a set of development kits to churches such as "school in a box" and "clinic in a box," the latter of which Warren says will eventually include AIDS medicines. The problem with this arrangement is comparable to the problem with other faith-based initiatives entrusted with the distribution of state services: that the provision of aid and services is performed with state dollars but with no accountability regarding the fair and non-coercive availability of that aid."

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/12/19/untold-consequences-rick-warrens-aids-activism

Nifty deal, eh? He makes a profit, gets followers, Rwanda gets a few trinkets paid for by the US government (you do know that we fund Warren's "good works" through the faith based initiative, don't you?).

I'd rather hand the money over to the Agency for International Development, and let foriegn aid specialists with no funny agendas and subject to oversight do the work.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Agency for International Development has funny agendas as well.
Power always does.
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
65. yah, the problem with "faith-based initiatives" is that they use hunger, homelessness,
and other disempowering conditions as a lever to force their evangelism on the helpless, and to set the agenda for a wider scale social engineering. Such initiatives depend on the existence of the helpless, the more helpless the better, to justify the presence of the evangelists, who're there to spread a religious doctrine, a religious culture.

If Warren and co., including the rest of the fundamentalists, *really* cared about poverty, there would be NO homelessness in the USA. After all, it's the richest country in the world. There would be NO homelessness in the USA, and the case for the good that these fundamentalists claim to do, or care so much about, would be proven. We wouldn't hear such uniform vitriol against the very poor, about their "laziness", their "drinking and drug use", etc. -- all used as excuses for doing nothing, for putting the real thing, poverty, out of mind.

Actually, if these right-wing fundamentalists gave a good god damn they wouldn't mind paying a bit more in taxes to equalize conditions, and we all know what they (almost every damn one of them) think about THAT.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
110. Precisely. Thank you for your post. n/t
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
38. I'm personally a lot more concerned about feeding the hungry...
than I am about who speaks at the inauguration. I think most Christians would agree.
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #38
52. So am I. n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
40. If killing 50 would save 500, would you do it with a brick?
Would you do it with a stick?
Would you kill them ona train?
Would you kill them 'cause you're insane?

Let him? Who the hell has any choice? False hypothetical worthy of torture rationalization. What if we had this guy who could feed all the kids if we just tortured him? What if. What if the mule goes blind? What if we stopped playing word games and spoke in clear terms. What if.

What if the Chruch of Scientology feed far more starving kids than Warren's gang ever will, which they do. Should e-meters be handed out at schools?

If I feed a thousand kids, will Warren let love into his heart? A million? You put your faith in this charlatan Warren, just as Obama did with McClurkin. If they spew against gays, they are winners in Obama's book. Donnie has no hunger outreach, and he was there bashing my family for Obama too. What is the reasoning behind that? Did one hundered blind people get vision because Donnie was allowed to bash millions?

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
42. Why is this even a question?
Reaching out to Warren and his side isn't the issue. Providing him with a national stage right after he won his bigotry contest in CA is the issue. Obama is wrong, period.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
43. What if he were to shoot a puppy if not invited to speak!?!?!
:thumbsdown:
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
44. I take this as doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's a whole lot less about ending
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 09:43 AM by 54anickel
poverty and hunger while having everything to do to with gaining the credibility needed to maintain power and control. Their party is now out of power so this simply offers the opportunity to maintain a primary seat at the table for the fundamentalists. Both Warren and Obama are playing "opportunists" here and it's just plain wrong.

I'm not against giving them a seat under the big tent, just not one of the primary seats at the head of the table and certainly not by asking the GLBT community to give up the bench they've been asked to warm for ages. No, Warren and his ilk need to take a seat around the edges of the tent where people like myself, Wallis, Sider, Campolo and the rest of us choose to sit. Invite him to the party? Sure. Allow him to speak and give him public, political credibility? No f'ing way. Let's try getting the light of the non-fundamentalists out from under the dark shadow of the fundamentalists for a change. Maybe then we can begin to rebuild that wall of separation together.

Someone from the Interfaith Alliance would have been a much better selection to emulate the campaign promises of change and hope.



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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
46. If my aunt had balls, would she be my uncle? n/t
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
47. Brit admiring himself in a mirror: 'if I had 3 more inches I'd be the King!' his wife: 'if you had
3 less inches you'd be the Queen!'
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
48. No.
Doing good in another area does NOT in my book make up for doing evil in another.

JMHO
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denisrobert Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
49. What a dumb question!
"If Warren at the Inauguration Could Feed a Starving Child, Would You Let Him Speak?"

OMG teh moron!

This is a false premise because:

1. Warren cares not an iota about poverty. His "Purpose-Driven Life" is all about being a good fundamentalist, nothing there about being a good person. You see, Christian Fundamentalism believes, at its core, that it is belief in Christ which saves, and that deeds DON'T MATTER AT ALL. You can be a horrible person, as long as you believe in Christ, you are saved. That's the dirty little secret at the heart of modern fundamentalism.

2. Even if Warren did honestly care about the poor (he doesn't), HOW THE HELL WOULD HIS APPEARANCE AT THE INAUGURATION DO ANYTHING TO HELP???

as I said: what a moronic question...
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
53. Great post! A lot of people don't realize that Warren
has supported free hospitalization to everyone, and even won an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) for his work in that area.

They don't realize he supports nationalizing foreign oil interests and distributing land to local farmers - and creating government established farm cooperatives, in which profits are distributed according to the labors of the individual and the unskilled are trained.




Oh wait, that wasn't Warren, it was Saddam Hussein. Well, regardless, you can see my point - people get all focused on the negative details when they should be looking at the bigger picture.

Right?

;)
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #53
63. That Was Nicely Done.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
112. Awesome post.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
124. Saddam was certainly demonized
A big picture view might have made the Iraq war look less attractive. But now that Warren = Saddam = Hitler we must invade Saddleback church and create regime change there. We can win this cultural war!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
54. You are actually trying to equate one hungry kid with 18,000 marriages?
That doesn't even make a mark on the making sense scale.
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demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
55. Let me tell you a little story.
At first I was all for Hillary. I had been a fan of big dog and now I was going to vote for his wife. There were just a few things about Obama that bothered me. Then one day Ferraro made a very racist comment and Hillary did not say a word. She did not say Ferraro was wrong or try to distance herself in any way. I refused to vote for a racist and so that day I turned into a fan of Obama. I felt, at that point, that he really was for change. That he wanted to bring everyone togather and make it a bright new day in America.

If I thought he would go against the commitment of two people in love I would have stayed home and not voted at all. It sickens me that Obama would lend credibility to a but by having him speak at such a prestigious event. If Obama wanted to reach out to Rick he could invite him to the White House to speak to him privately at some point. He did not have to reinforce the guy's views and give him a platform that suddenly makes a larger audience listen to him.

As far as feeding one starving child goes, I do not see the correlation that inviting him to the White House 100% guaranteed would feed a child. And if it is only poverty that Obama is trying to erase, he could have invited Bono to the inauguration. Bono is a big proponent of getting rid of hunger and it really woudl have spotlighted the hunger issue in a big way.

I honestly do not feel it is an all of nothing situation and the only way to help hunger is by driving more people into Rick's church.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
56. "to be denied the right to speak in public" - who's advocating that, then?
No-one, of course - it's one huge strawman you've set up there, and you've been oh so brave in fearlessly knocking it down in the name of free speech. No-one is talking about 'denying the right to speak in public' - just as there aren't 300 million people being 'denied the right to speak in public' because they weren't invited to give a 2 minutes prayer at the inauguration.

"He can not continue to do both, because as this episode will have already shown him, one detracts from his ability to be effective at the other"

Huh? How has that been 'shown'? He is continuing to compare gay marriage to incest, polygamy and paedophilia - he did it again on Saturday. He's done similar things many times before. So, if you think this has been 'shown', then that must mean you're saying he hasn't done anything at all about poverty for years. That may be true (the links you gave would seem to show you wrong, though), but it would hardly be a reason for letting him have an official national, president-approved, platform.

If this shows him anything, it's that Obama will turn a blind eye to his hateful rhetoric about homosexuality, as long as there's some other area in which they agree. It's showing Warren he can have his cake and eat it.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
58. False choice. And your op is disgusing for suggesing it. NT
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Exactly. It implies we need to be extorted to help starving children. Repugnant.
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 10:38 AM by EndElectoral
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. I wonder if disinviting Warren would save the life of one gay teen, would that
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 10:38 AM by mondo joe
be worthwhile?
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. Yes.
Or it it prevented one (or a gang) of violent bigots from believing that GLBT individuals are fair game for violence under this administration, yes. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28319437

Words of hatred and acts of hatred are linked.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
77. Not a gay one, no. n/t
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
59. yes
sure
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
61. Too Bad You Diluted An Important Argument By Throwing Warren Into It
The fact that children are hungry is a tragedy that has absolutely nothing at all to do with a hate-spewing asshole getting an honor he more than doesn't deserve.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
64. That's why Jim Wallis would've been a perfect choice.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
66. I wonder about Warren's outreach
When the hungry go to get food do they force them to listen to their testimony? Many churches do. Some require you bring a program from your church's last sermon before you get food. Some justify saying if you really want food, you can listen a few minutes about Jesus. Our COC gives food with no questions asked.

Where was Warren when AIDS was called the gay man's disease?

When they give aid are there strings attached? My church supports the Sewing Project for Women of The Congo. No strings, no conversions

Community and global outreach are practiced by most churches. It is not a bad thing to question motives. Most churches go about their business quietly and do their part without expecting invitations in return.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Relgious fascists have often used food and other necessities as tools in their
efforts to control everyone.

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
70. Thank you, McCamy. It seems that many of us at DU want OBAMA to become BUSH--
listening only to the "pure" idealogues in his administration, shutting out all discussion on issues his "base" is against, and being an intolerant, closed advocate for the Left.

I am hoping beyond hope that President Obama will lean left in his policies and actions, but I also firmly believe he needs to be a much bigger and more inclusive figure than George W. Bush and his Republican predecessors.



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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. That's a falsehood.
No one has said Obama shouldn't dialogue with Warren and those like him.

Choosing to not HONOR a bigot isn't the same as shutting out discussion.
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antimatter98 Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
76. I'm sure Hitler fed some people. So what! n/t
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
78. not if he fed the child on lies, bigotry, ignorance, divisiveness and hatred,
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 12:26 PM by leftofthedial
which seem to be his staples.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. It's acceptable, to some here, to let gay kids die because of bigotry, as long as they're
a little more full of food.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
80. Warren opposes AIDS prevention measures such as distributing condoms in Africa
and he invests in corporations whose financial dealings create the very same poverty he claims to oppose.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
81. Would Warren not feed that starving child...
if he were prevented from speaking?

Sid
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
100. Good question. Warren does seem like an attention whore to me! n/t
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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
83. k&r! n/t
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. Warren personally worked on H8
Making allusions to other Christians who share this mans beliefs as a basis for suggesting that there was no real alternate choices is misleading. This man specifically and personally worked to remove the rights of the GLBT citizens of California. And he was successful. You cannot say that about all the other christians in this country. This is not the kind of man who should be honored on this day. This man should not be forced upon the members of the GLBT community who had intended to celebrate that day. There will be plenty of opportunities for this man to share in the work of the administration. Not this day, not this way.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
85. This post is a tad low on cause and effect..
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. What kind of logic is this?
I just don't follow....
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
89. No such choice exists.
Anyway, it is not only gay rights including the right to be free of workplace discrimination, but also reproductive and other personal matters. Ultimately, Warren represents embracing irrationality and hucksterism over clear thinking and honesty.
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hardtoport Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
92. How's this for a " what if "?
What if Obama set the example for America and said even though my religious belief is that a marriage is between a man and a woman, my scholarship of the Constitution says my religious belief gives me no right to deny others their rights? What if, by sending an unequivocal message on gay rights, he could help gay marriage to become a reality?

What if, by helping gay marriage become a reality, he could help that hypothetical impoverished child by having a loving gay couple adopt and feed that child?

The fact is that we could play the ' what if ' game all day. Your choice is a false one. We can both fight poverty and fight for gay rights at the same time. We can find right of center folks to reach out to without giving a platform to bigots. Hopefully the dissent expressed will cause Obama to carefully consider the quality of his choice of evangelical representatives when reaching out to the other side.



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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
97. If George Wallace could have saved a starving child, I wouldn't have wanted him either.
It's amazing how easy it is to blow off bigotry when the target is someone else's group.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. George Wallace changed. In later life, he renounced his "segregation forever ways".
So, that was a very bad choice for your side. Wallace proves that everyone is capable of redemption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace

Wallace became a born-again Christian in the late 1970s and apologized for his earlier segregationist views to black civil rights leaders. He said while he once sought power and glory, he realized he needed to seek love and forgiveness. His term as Governor (1983–1987) saw a record number of black appointments to government positions.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. You got the point. You wanna play a game of "gotcha" or do you want to talk about Civil RIghts?
Or do civil rights only matter when it's your own group?

Seriously. Why are you willing to let a bigot speak at the inaugural in a position of honor? If Wallace (before his "redemption") had been asked to speak at an inaugural, we'd have all been pissed off. Or, try David Duke.

Hmm, maybe I'll ask David Duke to speak at my college graduation. If there's any complaints from the Black students, I'll just tell them that we have to have a "big tent" and "reach across the aisle" and "look for common ground." And don't tell me that David Duke doesn't like gays either. You get the point I am making.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
116. It's not gotcha. Wallace was a human being. Not a symbol of ultimate evil
to be pulled out to scare people like the bogey man. That is what the Right Wing is doing now with Bill Ayers.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #116
125. It is "gotcha" and you had to post another thread to really get the "one up"
You're really twisting yourself into a pretzel on this one to support a very bad and bigoted decision on the part of Obama.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
106. What if Bush fed a starving child? RW calls Christians who fight for poverty socialists.
So who cares about his "feel good" charity if he advocates for a system that perpetuates poverty?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
108. And if Warren speaking at the inauguration causes many more to starve and die?
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
109. If Rick Warren speaking at the inauguration
could bring back Matthew Shepard, I'd be all for it. He's got a direct line to gawd, doesn''t he? Why doesn't he just arrange that, then we'll talk. Until then, if he needs the bribe of a public forum to get him to help people in need, screw him.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
114. Would Obama pull Rick Warren if he knew that one gay child would kill him or herself
because a family member said he or she was no better than a pedophile?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. He would pull him if Warren tried to say that at the inauguration, for sure!
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. He has said it, on air, AFTER he was invited to speak at the inauguration! To justify his views!
The invitation gave him the opportunity to say it to a world-wide audience. The invitation gave him a very much heightened gravitas, a very much heightened credibility, and a perfect opportunity to spread his hatred to the whole nation. He has taken the opportunity and has ran with it - and you are urging him on.

Are you totally blind to the reality of this issue?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
119. Yes, but in a port a potty two miles from the event.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
123. more than FDR's new deal, Kennedy and LBJ as well as much of the country
were motivated or inspired by Michael Harrington's book "The Other America" which shone a spotlight on poverty.
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