There is a difference between "being polite" and "sleeping with the enemy."

[Hepburn]

In case there is any doubt, IMO, inviting Rick Warren to speak is "sleeping with the enemy." It is validating his anti-gay and anti-women philosophies.

Being polite to him is saying, "Hello, sure I will sign your album cover." (Read Melissa Etheridge.) That is a personal act between people who may disagree about many things.

But...inviting him to speak on a NATIONAL platform at a NATIONAL event which signifies where our nation hopes to go? Wrong on so many levels.

JMHO

[Hepburn]

1. Thanks for the recs!

:hi:

Just seems clear to me that having Warren there sends the WRONG message to so many, to wit: It is OK to discriminate.

[NJmaverick]

2. It's a sad state of affairs when there are people referring to fellow Americans as "the enemy"

thankfully we have a great President that will lead our nation out of this moral sewer.

[Hepburn]

3. Never stop believing that the Evangels are our enemy.

They stand for putting the Bible above the U.S. Constitution. In my book, that makes them enemies of this nation.

JMHO

[NJmaverick]

4. The use of the term "enemy" to describe fellow law abiding citizens of our nation

is peverse, to say the least. I can see your "book" is no where near as noble as Obama's

[Hepburn]

6. Sorry...but as far as I am concerned....

...placing ANY book above what our Constitution stands for is WRONG and anti-American.

One should not compromise on what the Consitution requires. I do not give a shit what the Bible says and I am sick and tired of the Evangels and other RW fundies trying to shit-can our Constitution because the "Bible tells them so."

[Toasterlad]

69. So, You're Cool With The Fundie Plan To Forcibly "Cure" Gays?

[tinrobot]

9. ...and evengelicals love being your enemy.

Evangelicals are really good at dividing up groups of people into "us" and "them" so they can pit one group against the other for their own gain.

Treating them as an "enemy" simply validates that process.

[Hepburn]

16. They are NOT my friends and I am very clear on that.

As I said, there is being polite...but that does NOT mean I need to sleep with them.

I will NOT compromise my ideals in regard to gay, woman and stem cell issues.

Fuck the RR and the Evangels. They need to understand that their fucking Bible is NOT the law of the land.

JMHO

[tinrobot]

53. "Not friends" is very different than "enemy"

[NJmaverick]

17. Treating them as the enemy is doing the EXACT same thing

so I guess you approve of their tactics, since you want to adopt them.

[Hepburn]

20. They stand for just about everything I detest...

...they are not my friends and they need to understand that I will guard against them putting their bullshit Biblical principles into our secular government.

[NJmaverick]

22. "everything"?

you "detest" helping the poor? You "detest" helping those with aids?

[Hepburn]

29. I detest trying to convert those who need help while Bible thumping to them.

You feed people and aid people out of the goodness of your heart ~~ not because you wish to convert them. They think gays who have AIDS deserved to get it. Tell me that is an OK attitude to have while dealing with the dying. I think not.

I am an atheist ~~ I have worked the food banks and in the soup kitchens. I can guarantee I did that not because any fucking church suggested it. I have worked in projects that help HIV babies get adopted by single gay or gay couples. No fucking Bible told me to do that and I sure as hell do not see those gays who took AIDS and HIV babies as fucking "sinners."

The RR and the Evangels are the enemy. There is no doubt on that. Look at what pickets Family Planning Clinics and emotionally batters women who are most likely making the toughest decisions they could make in their lives.

How about those who would be benefitted by stem cell research? Let them die because the Evangels and the RR "chose life?"

Fuck them and their bullshit about putting the Bible first. IMO: People first ~~ and with the rights guaranteed by our Constitution. And that includes the right to marry the person one loves ~~ same sex or opposite sex.

JMHO

[NJmaverick]

37. You claimed to detest "everything" they stood for

now you are trying to be dismissive of the good things they stand for. You know the world is not black and white (even if our current resident in the White Housethinks so). It's full of shades of gray and few people are truly bad or truly good. It would serve you well to look to Obama's fine example. You don't need to agree with all positions and there are areas of common ground. An emphasis of the agreements combined with a little tolerance and respect, on both sides, can lead to wonderful things.

[Hepburn]

42. Obama's find example is inviting a homophobic bigot to be part...

...of a National Celebration.

I am not over-looking this.

[NJmaverick]

43. I guess that is one narrow minded way of looking at his noble efforts

at uniting a badly divided and wounded nation. Not a particularly good way of viewing things, but it is a way.

[Hepburn]

44. Lay down with dogs....

...one gets fleas.

You wanna support Warren ~~ your choice. But you are not gonna shame me into accepting him because he has done some good as well.

That is like saying, IMO, "Hilter was good to his dog."

So what...

[NJmaverick]

45. And Godwin's law is now activated

What is Godwin's law?


:Godwin's Law: /prov./ "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.

[Hepburn]

50. ...

...:eyes:

[Number23]

78. Wow! Posts like this are one (of the 6000) reasons that GD is soo much better than GD-P

There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

Had no idea about Godwin's law but this is too true! :rofl:

[Pastiche423]

68. What noble effort?

Sticking a known anti-gay, anti-woman fundie in front of our secular nation is noble?

In what fucking way?

[dflprincess]

72. It's not just Gays and women - Warren says Jews are going to hell

I imagine he thinks that way of anyone who doesn't pray to Jesus (or doesn't pray to Jesus the way he thinks they should).

I doubt Christ would be especially impressed with Warren's goods works when the guy uses God to denigrate any human being who isn't a heterosexual male who believes just like Warren does.

[Pastiche423]

74. Is there a reason you answered my post?

:shrug:

[dflprincess]

75. My intent was to agree with you

and supplement the list you had of who Warren is against. You mentioned that Warren is anti-gay and anti-women be he's also anti-anybody-who-isn't-Christian and I've noticed his religious prejudices haven't been mentioned much in the discussions.

How "noble" indeed.

[Pastiche423]

77. Gotcha!

I will never understand why Obama did this. There is no explanation.

[madeline_con]

25. War against freedom by religious bigots gets war in return.

There are many who understand nothing less. Maybe if they became Christians, instaed of merely calling themselves that, they'd learn what the word means. They have yet to master its basic ideals.

[NJmaverick]

27. An eye for an eye leads to lots of blind people, not peace or justice

[madeline_con]

31. Maybe it'll open some third eyes. n/t

[Hepburn]

32. Blessed be. n/t

[pampango]

46. Bush, the neocons, and evangelicals are good at dividing the world into the "enemy" and

the "good guys". They believe it is a sign of weakness to negotiate or compromise with the "enemy" whether that is Iran, North Korea, or "liberals in big government". The "enemy" is to be defeated and that's it. No compromise; no negotiation; just attack and defeat.

While many liberals switch which side the term "enemy" applies to (Bush, repubs, Southern senators,etc.), the tactic of no negotiation and no compromise with the "enemy" remains the same principle as the neocons use. It makes you think that many here agree with the Bush strategy of "you're with us or you're against us" and "no negotiation, no compromise, just confrontation", they just define who the "enemy" is much differently. The tactic stays the same, just the target changes.

Obama has campaigned on the notion that this is not how he operates. (Of course, Bush ran on a "compassionate conservative" and "reaching across the aisle" platform, too.) We will see if he really meant it, or if it was a campaign tactic (just like Bush).

[NJmaverick]

47. EXACTLY!!!

:applause:

[yowzayowzayowza]

57. 2nd that. n/t

[Leftest]

40. "WAR" on Drugs!

The WAR on drugs which is a war on Americans is by in large motivated by the Evangels. Seeking to undermine our Constitution with their theology and motivating a war against fellow Americans who wish to responsibly smoke pot are acts against our country and fellow citizens. I don't think its over the top to label as an enemy those who wage war against fellow Americans and attempt to undermine our Constitution. What other name fits?

I don't disagree with your use of the word Hepburn. If they don't like being called that, then, maybe they should stop acting like one.

[gollygee]

10. Being American doesn't make someone good. n/t

[NJmaverick]

26. Correct, but fellow law abiding Americans are not our enemy

[Hepburn]

36. How so when they openly oppose the rights of others?

They organize and spend money to get into the private lives of others who are doing them no harm.

[madeline_con]

24. Some are American by mere chance. NOT fellows by any stretch!

They are perpetuating the moral sewer you speak of.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. Because Prop 8 and comparing gay marriage to pedophilia were such "friendly" acts.

[Hepburn]

41. That just gets to me EVERY time I hear about this remark from...

...that POS Warren.

On another thread I spoke of the dinner party I had last evening. Two of the guests were two very dear friends of mine ~~ a gay couple who have been together for ages ~~ of these gentlemen is soon to have his 8oth birthday. They are scholarly, elegant, wonderful people and I dearly love them. They are kind and thoughtful and an very positive presence in my life and in the lives of others. To liken them to child molesters? There is only one thing I can say:

Fuck Warren.

[readmoreoften]

58. I'll openly refer to you as my enemy since you regularly argue against LGBT equality.

No one was more unified that the German people under Hitler. There is no moral sewer deeper than the concept of "national unity".

[RetroLounge]

59. If you do not think Warren and his ilk are the enemy

then you don't belong here.

:puke:

RL

[Lorien]

61. The poster knows A LOT about what goes on in Freeperville

mere coincidence? I think not.

[RetroLounge]

62. I am not surprised in the least.

It's been obvious for awhile...

RL

[readmoreoften]

60. But Mexicans? Thems the enemy, right?

:sarcasm:

[Mari333]

63. well then, lets put someone onstage who represents neonazi americans

I am sure you wouldnt object to a neonazi onstage, he is an american after all.perhaps the grand wizard of the KKK. all inclusive and all that.
no? that wouldnt be okay? it wouldnt be okay to put an avowed racist up there?
but its okay if its someone who is a bigot against gays and women. because, of course, they arent 'that' important, silly gays, silly women.
having rick warren up there excludes most americans. women are 51 percent of the pop.
having rick warren up there is going to be obama's nightmare for a long long time.

[foxfeet]

66. And yet, somehow, it's OK that some people falsely accuse other Americans of

pedophilia and bestiality to deny them human rights.

[Boojatta]

5. Has Maria Shriver been sleeping with the enemy?

Edited to add link:
http://www.firstlady.ca.gov/

[Hepburn]

7. I have no clue with whom she has been sleeping...

...and it is none of my business.

:hi:

[tinrobot]

11. (hint: he's the Republican governor of California)

[Hepburn]

14. I know that...

...but how the hell do I know what the agreements are between them?

:shrug:

I know for sure ~~ as a Californian ~~ that Arnold does not support Prop H8.

[Shiver]

49. Niether does Obama

[cascadiance]

28. Carville certainly does!

[Skittles]

8. there simply is no excuse for it

I'm not surprised Obama did it but it is sickening

[Hepburn]

13. I am down right angry over the selection of Warren.

There is being polite...but that does not mean one appears to actively support the religious bigotry of some RW fanatic.

JMHO

[Skittles]

19. I'm no longer taking off from work to watch the inauguration

quite simply, it ruined it for me - I'll watch news clips but this really made me feel ill.

[Kahuna]

12. I beg to differ. Thus far, I see Warren's anti-gay rhetoric being exposed as

ridulous and over the top. HE is the one on the defensive concerning HIS views. Maybe it's the "unintended" consequences of Obama chosing him. But, if Obama had wanted to do something to gain sympathy and support for the GLBT community, he couldn't hae done a better job. However, I don't think he knew in advance that this selection would gain such immediate beneficial results. But it has so there is a bright side to it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. Did you forget to add a sacrasm smiley or did I just walk into the looking glass while

reading your post?

Picking Warren has helped the Gay Community?

:puke:

[Kahuna]

34. Whatever, TIy see half empty while I see half full. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

48. What does Tly mean? As to cups half empty and cups half full...

Stephen Colbert's take on it is that what's left in the cup is the backwash. Rick Warren and Obama's choice of giving Warren this high honor, is backwash in my book and no matter how anyone chooses to spin it, it's a slap in the face of the gay community, Jews and women everywhere.

[Hepburn]

23. Warren is wrong on sooooooooooooo many fronts.

He is anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-stem cell research ~~ ande more.

Name just about anything that is important to those who worked for Obama, and that POS Warren opposes it.

And worse? He is the head of a HUGE church which gives him the resources to keep opposing those issues which are so very important.

[Kahuna]

33. Did I ever say he was right? No I did not. AAMOF, I point out said he

was exposed for the ignorant moron he is. You choose to miss the point. That's your right. But don't try to twist what I say. That's not cool.

[Hepburn]

39. What does AAMOF mean?

And...I did not believe I was twisting anything. If I offended you, sincere apologies.

:hi:

[Kahuna]

54. AAMOF = As a matter of fact...

:pals:

[Bjorn Against]

56. You think this has gained Obama more sympathy from the GLBT community? Are you delusional?

I don't know what beneficial results you are talking about, but you are really misreading the situation.

[gcomeau]

18. For cripes sake...

In case there is any doubt, IMO, inviting Rick Warren to speak is "sleeping with the enemy." It is validating his anti-gay and anti-women philosophies.

No, it is not. For one simple blindingly obvious reason. When the invitation was issued Obama SPECIFICALLY, PUBLICLY, EXPLICITLY said he thought Warren was wrong on that issue.

There is no possible rational way to argue that Obama telling the entire freaking nation Warren is wrong about something means he's validating him on it. Geez I'm sick of this crap.

[Hepburn]

21. So....fine....

...disinvite the bigoted asshole.

He does NOT belong on a national stage ~~ on this day, he is a symbol of our nation and I sure as hell do not what this bigot standing up for my ideals.

JMHO

[NJmaverick]

30. Shame you can't rec a post, because this one certainly deserves one

[Hepburn]

35. ....

:loveya:

And for you? A HUGE piece of the German Chocolate Cake left over from last evening!

Tea or coffee with that?

[surrealAmerican]

51. You're using the wrong metaphor.

Inviting Warren is neither "being polite" nor "sleeping with the enemy". There's a whole lot of territory in between those two extremes, and this falls in there somewhere. Perhaps we could call it "overlooking the faults of an influential person so as not to antagonize those who may agree with him about unrelated issues", but that doesn't sound nearly as snappy.

[Hepburn]

52. With the statement "being polite" I was speaking to the subject of Melissa Etheridge...

...and the fact that she autographed an album for bigot Warren. That is personal and being polite. Inviting Warren to speak to the nation? IMO, that is sleeping with the enemy.

Some were comparing the two acts as being the same. I see what Etheridge did as a completely different kind of conduct.

JMHO

[foxfeet]

65. This is actually beyond "sleeping with the enemy."

It is perilously close to hot, sweaty, bumping of uglies on the 50 yard line at the Superbowl.

[backscatter712]

55. Your idea of the line between being polite and sleeping with the enemy differs from mine.

Warren got only a ceremonial role. He gets to mumble a few words and wave his dead chicken for the Deity for two minutes.

Now, if Obama had brought Rick Warren into his Cabinet, then that'd be sleeping with the enemy.

[Mari333]

64. then lets put the grand wizard of the KKK up there too

surely you would agree to that, right ? cause its no big deal after all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

67. .

:evilgrin: :thumbsup:

[anonymous171]

70. No. Signing an anti-gay bill for political gain would be "sleeping with the enemy."

[KittyWampus]

71. What would you call having a Mid- East Peace Summit w/Ahmadinejad?

For some DU'ers, reaching out to the opposition is only to be done when it's convenient or doesn't involve their personal issue.

[dflprincess]

73. Ask Warren about that peace summit - he wants Ahmadinejad assassinated.

What kind of message is Obama sending to the world by including a nut case like this in his inauguration?

[donheld]

76. Bullshit

Letting him make policy is sleeping with the enemy. letting him say a stupid pray is barely a token jester of thanks.


Stop this madness of over reaction.