Thomas Jefferson... some quotes to think about...

[Adsos Letter]

Excerpts from Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, "Query 17: Religion."

For the proper context, I would recomend reading the whole of "Query 17," which can be found here:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefVirg.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=17&division=div1




...our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desireable? No more than of face and stature. Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter. Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments.

It is true, we are as yet secured against them by the spirit of the times. I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution for heresy, or a three years imprisonment for not comprehending the mysteries of the Trinity. But is the spirit of the people an infallible, a permanent reliance? Is it government? Is this the kind of protection we receive in return for the rights we give up? Besides, the spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.


The framers of our government (and they were a disparate group) were not perfect, but they correctly understood some basic, fundamental truths very well: religious people have a right to their religious opinions, noxious as they may be, but they have NO right to compel us to accept their beliefs, nor does government have any right to compel those beliefs.

The mixture of religious and governmental power is to be avoided at all costs.

Safeguard our principles as a secular state, and let religious belief remain a matter of personal conscience, and voluntary association.

Our founding document got it right: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

THAT is the equality we must continue to strive actively toward and not allow any opinions that would blunt that direction to be transformed from opinion into law.

All in my humble opinion, of course (as if that needs to be said, but, just in case...)

[Unsane]

1. Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholding racist who wanted to subjugate women.

[Fearless]

2. Does that make the statement less valid?

[apocalypsehow]

3. I was going to post "any second some idiot it going to ignore the context of your OP and babble,

'but he was a slave owner!!!!'," but I was too slow on the draw.

x(

[Adsos Letter]

4. It's ok...I understand the limitations of Jefferson's personal views and actions...

even Lincoln held views regarding the social equality of African-Americans that we would find unacceptable (see his first debate with Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois, in 1858).

It is the ideal spirit of the Declaration of Independence for which we must continue to strive! :hi:

[apocalypsehow]

5. I agree 100% - I was not being critical of your OP, but of the knee-jerk reaction to it I knew was

coming from some quarter or another.

:hi:

[Adsos Letter]

6. I didn't think you were being critical... :)

I even thought about posting a disclaimer that indicated that I fully understood the difference between the ideal and the reality, as both have exhibited themselves throughout our history.

Then I thought "Eh... screw it..."

All of the fallibilities to which humans are subject have competed with the highest ideals of our Declaration...but we have continued to move toward those ideals.

My hope is that we will continue the upward march, rather than allowing the influence of religion on government (or vice-versa) to impede that path.

:hi: