Manga collector faces 20 year prison sentence for "obscene" manga.

[backscatter712]

Yes, I know it's old. I'm posting it again.

Once again, undersexed authoritarian Christian Taliban working in law enforcement have decided that comic books are worth felony convictions. :mad: :eyes:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2008-12-11/christopher-handley/carl-horn

20 Years in Prison for Buying a Manga
Don't Let it Happen: Donate to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund Today
by Carl Horn


In fact, picture people from four different state, local, and federal law enforcement agencies deciding—deciding by coming into your house, today, with a search warrant. Picture them doing that while you're standing right there, while your neighbors are wondering about all the police cars outside, going through your entire collection of manga, artbooks and anime—packing them up, carting them off for inspection. Wait a minute—do they say all of them contain "obscene" content? Oh, by no means. They're saying only a few of them do. And not even the entire manga among those few. Just some drawings in them, here and there.

Picture being handcuffed and booked and told you may now go to prison for twenty years...over some drawings in your manga, here and there.

What's just been described isn't some drama that exists only in flames on the net, and it's not fear mongering—some nightmare scenario that might someday happen in reality. It already has happened in reality, to a manga fan in America named Christopher Handley. It's still happening to him right now, as he prepares for this case. And now here's the real question.

Do you think it's right? I'm not talking about the drawings in the manga. I mean, regardless of how you feel about the manga itself, do you think it's right that someone, anyone, should be sent to prison, merely for possessing drawings in a manga?

Is there any way we can start forcing some checks and balances on prosecutorial and police power? Real checks. Terrifying checks that make prosecutors and cops wet their pants at the thought of going outside their legal bounds. As in if you're a prosecutor or a cop, and you abuse your power, say by violating someone's Constitutional rights, you go to fucking prison. No protective custody for you, you get dumped in general pop. And we make damned sure that you get dumped in general pop in a prison full of people you sent there, so they can tell you what they think of your abuses in person...

[Orrex]

1. When he gets out, he'll likely have to register as a sex offender

This case is fucked up. I have no appreciation for manga as an art form, and I'm frankly more than a little creeped out by a lot of what I've seen. Regardless, individual aesthetic sensibilities should have no bearing on the law, and certainly he shouldn't serve any jail time. This whole thing is a grossly abusive over-reaching of power; they did it because they felt that they could do it.

Thank god for the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, or Mr. Handley would be completely screwed with no recourse.

[silverojo]

21. Why would manga creep you out?

Are you looking at nothing but hentai? Manga is an extremely varied artform, with titles aimed at boys, girls, adults, and even specific hobbies like tennis, basketball, or golf.

Manga includes some of the most beautiful artwork you'll ever see, with it's subtle shadings and fluidity that makes you forget it's not in color.

Maybe some titles would creep you out, but it's not fair to lump all manga into the "creepy" category, when most of it is so utterly beautiful.

[Orrex]

27. Well...

Here's what you wrote:

Maybe some titles would creep you out, but it's not fair to lump all manga into the "creepy" category, when most of it is so utterly beautiful.

And here's what I wrote:

I have no appreciation for manga as an art form, and I'm frankly more than a little creeped out by a lot of what I've seen.

It seems to me that I'm certainly not lumping all manga into the "creepy" category. In fact, I'm doing exactly the opposite.

[varkam]

28. Indeed.

Which doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, but that's the law for ya.

[davidinalameda]

2. what was the alleged obscenity?

was it child porn or stuff along those lines?

I want to know what it was before getting my panties in a bunch

[backscatter712]

4. Even if it was "child porn"... It's a fucking comic book.

No real children, just some drawings. Prosecuting that crosses First Amendment bounds, as tasteless as the material is.

On top of that, where is the line crossed? There's plenty of more mainstream manga focusing on teenage girls, and yes, you'll see some boobies and pointy-bits. Is that "child porn?" Is it worth slapping a comic book collector with a mandatory minimum 20 year prison sentence and a lifetime in the sex-offender registry?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have my panties in a bunch on this, metaphorically speaking.

[SanchoPanza]

10. He's being prosecuted under a secition of the PROTECT Act

(a) IN GENERAL- Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that--

`(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

`(B) is obscene; or

`(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

`(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

(b) ADDITIONAL OFFENSES- Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly possesses a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that--

`(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

`(B) is obscene; or

`(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

`(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(2), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

Bolded sections are nightmares for the prosecution in any obscenity cases, especially on appeal, and are only included in "obscenity statutes" such as these to keep in line with the SCOTUS's Miller Test.

There is also the fact that the comic in question is depicting adults in sexual situations, but in using the conventions associated with the artform, the figures can appear to pre-pubescent (lacking pubic hair, somewhat andogenous musculature, etc).

All in all, it's a good thing for Mr. Handley that his defense is being supported by a non-profit defense fund. There's a convincing argument that the intent behind such prosecutions is to gain plea deals from defendents rather than have them shell out the cost of defending themselves in court.

[backscatter712]

11. Am I the only one who thinks the SCOTUS Miller Test is a crock of shit?

Between Miller v. California and FCC v. Pacifica (the Seven-Dirty-Words case with Carlin's act), the Supreme Court over the years has really fucked things up.

[blogslut]

19. I'm torn on the Miller test

On one hand, the whole "obscenity defined by community standards" thing is basically a "guilty until proven innocent" approach. In other words, a sheriff and/or prosecutor can pull literally anyone off the street and accuse them of obscenity - leaving that person shamed in public and financially devastated, regardless of their jury-decided innocence.

However, on the other hand, I'm not sure I want the SCOTUS to come right out and rule on what is and isn't obscene.

[backscatter712]

20. That's why I'm don't think there should be such a thing as obscenity in expression.

People shouldn't go to jail because other people think their writing or art is icky. The only thing that matters is the question "Is another human being harmed?" As I discussed elsewhere in the thread, that why I drew the line at photographic kiddy-porn versus drawn kiddy-porn. In one, an actual child is being molested for the camera - of course that should be illegal, and the perpetrators should go to prison. In another, it's just a drawing. No living child has been harmed.

[blogslut]

24. I tend to agree

I believe that obscenity is a construct that is dependent on opinion.

As for the simulated depictions provision in the Protect act, the Free Speech Coalition is fighting that. Another portion of that law has been http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/FSCview.asp?coid=253&keywords=%22protect+act%22">ruled unconstitutional - the pandering provision. I hope that the accused man's lawyers know this and can use that ruling as a springboard-type defense.

From my limited knowledge of this case, the drawings in question are of adults but as is with so much manga/anime, the characters are without pubic hair - because the display of pubic hair is illegal in the country of origin. And of course, this man will be at the mercy of a jury who may or may not deem this content obscene.

Ultimately, this whole thing is an attempt by elected legislators and law enforcement to make themselves look righteous while doing absolutely nothing to end real crimes against minors. Something I see all the time in my business.

[JHB]

32. I'm inclined to think that the very act of prosecuting someone for it GIVES it the "political value"

...of the Miller Test.

[davidinalameda]

12. I don't care if it's stick figures

if it's child porn, which I just saw another reference to this in another paper, the guy should be sent away and should have to register as a sex offender

child porn ranks up there on my list of some of the most horrible crimes out there

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

15. so you're in favor of kiddie porn?

just asking

[backscatter712]

17. No, I'm in favor of the First Amendment.

I object to photographic kiddie-porn - where actual children are being molested and photographed in the process - children are being harmed.

These are drawings. No actual children being harmed.

You're in favor of putting otaku in prison for twenty year stretches and putting them on the sex-offender registry over stick-figure drawings?

[davidinalameda]

18. the First Amendment isn't absolute

thank goodness or else we'd be inundated with crap like drawing of kids getting sexually abused and stories about kids getting raped because it's protected speech

any kind of kiddy porn, written, photographed or drawn is just plain evil

why would anyone want to look at it or read it

society as a whole, and the kids in particular, are safer when these perverts are locked up

[silverojo]

22. Try READING manga before judging it

I can't think of any manga publisher here in the States that doesn't comply with obscenity laws. In Gunsmith Cats, for instance, the character of Minnie is a young prostitute in her mid-teens in the Japanese original. (She's also retired from the sex-worker profession, when the story begins.) But in the U.S. version, her age is changed to 18.

In other words, it ain't child porn.

[davidinalameda]

36. reading comprehension is your friend

did I say anything about manga in general or just this specific case?

[Democat]

25. Comics should put people in prison in your opinion?

You think people who read or write comics should be put in jail, even though no person was hurt in the production?

What about comics with murder?

In your view, is murder a better crime than underage sex?

Would you rather see murder than child porn?

That seems more sick than reading a comic book.

[Orrex]

29. Comics that resurrect dead characters for commercial reasons should put the writers in prison

Because it's a criminal cliche of the highest order. Captain Mar-vell died in the early 80's, and he should stay dead, dammit. That goes for Phoenix, too.

Jail the bastards!


(this is an intentionally absurd post, of course; my actual thoughts on the matter begin in reply #1)

[flvegan]

3. Please help the ignorant like me. What is this manga and

what was allegedly in it?

[backscatter712]

5. I believe the some of it was yaoi.

Yaoi (pronounced "yowee") is a genre of anime and manga that depicts gay male sexual relationships, some of it explicitly. It's quite popular among the female anime fans I hang out with - it's part gay porn, and part romance-novel. Like I previously posted, a lot of it deals with teenagers, hence it is "child porn."

Again, no actual kids or teenagers were hurt or exploited, these are fucking drawings. First Amendment applies.

[silverojo]

23. But the characters are over the age of consent

So the child porn label really doesn't apply.

[anigbrowl]

26. Manga = Japanese comic art

Google it, but don't blame me if you get shocked as a lot of it is erotic (or pornographic, depending on your point of view).


It's this 'style' of drawing people, just as American comics are heavily influenced by the art style of Stan Lee and similar artists.

[edhopper]

33. I get your point but,

Stan Lee is a writer, not an artist. You probably meant Jack Kirby

[anigbrowl]

35. D'oh, yes I meant Kirby. Thank you.

[AlCzervik]

6. you can buy manga at the Border's and Barnes and Nobles.

my daughter has a series that's manga, i looked through it and didn't find objectionable material. And i sure as hell didn't see any kiddie porn in there.

[backscatter712]

7. Barnes & Noble only carries the tame stuff.

The manga this guy ordered from Japan that the feds want to put in in PMITA prison for was ordered straight from Japan. Yeah, some of it can be downright nasty. It's still protected by the First Amendment (especially my interpretation of the First Amendment, which leaves absolutely no room for a crime of "obscenity.")

[Lorien]

8. I've seen some of it. An animator I worked with at Disney had several issues

the drawings were amazing, even though a lot of it was disturbing (lots of sex and violence involving underage catholic girls with supernatural powers). I had quite a few panels-not the obscene ones-pegged on to the walls around my desk for inspiration. I didn't know that I could have been imprisoned for having those books at my desk!

My friend Jeff Smith (creator of "Bone") participates in auctions and other events for the comic book legal defense fund every year. It's a very worthwhile organization!

[backscatter712]

9. Let's just say that you can find representative examples on 4chan...

[anigbrowl]

14. rule 1 & 2 plox

[anigbrowl]

16. You can find photography books there too, but that doesn't mean they sell porn

Manga is a huge genre that can include everything from flower arranging to ultra-violence, so what you can find at B & N is rpetty much meaningless. 'Comics drawn in the Japanese style' is a pretty wide ranging definition. Meanwhile, I don't approve of this prosecution.

[aikoaiko]

30. Has anyone been convicted of cartoon porn with child-like depictions before?

I thought SCOTUS said virtual kiddie porn was not a crime? If you can photochop real kids faces/heads on real adult porn stars in states of nudity, sexual excitement, and sexual activity(which is the case I remember), then I don't see how anyone could be convicted of cartoon kiddie porn.

These cases definitely try my commitment to the 1st amendment, but if no actual children were involved in the creation, distribution, or viewing of the images, then I can't see how it isn't protected by the 1st.

[DavidDvorkin]

31. The larger problem is the War on Porn

Which seems to be ramping up as the successor to the War on Drugs.

[Doremus]

34. I'm not familiar with manga but they sound like Tijuana Bibles from the 1930s

Wonder if any of my customers are under surveillance? :eyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tijuana_bible