You think non-Catholics are mad at the Pope? Just wait a few months.

[hedgehog]

Coming soon to a parish near you:

1- A new translation of the Mass that sounds more like Latin. For example, instead of saying "one in being with" we'll be stumbling over "consubstantial with"

2- the Kiss of Peace will be moved from Communion to before the Offertory because, well, people are acting too much like a community at the Kiss of Peace.

3. The Pope's new cardinal will be working on bringing back the communion rail and eliminating taking Communion in the hand. It's not respectful to let plain old lay people touch the Host, you know.


This all applies only if the parish near you is still there is a few months. Right now parishes are being shut down all over the world because there aren't enough priests.

American Catholics will put up with just about anything, but they are fast approaching a breaking point.

[kenny blankenship]

1. At least he won't force you to pronounce "homoousios"

[Recursion]

2. Homoiousios!

Anathema! Anathema!

[kenny blankenship]

9. Ok, now which of these 3 similar but not identical persons is the biggest stickler for monotheism?

God-the-Father, God-the-Son, or God-the-Holy-Spirit?

[mmonk]

3. Uh, we Catholics have been mad for awhile now.

[rockymountaindem]

4. Aren't you touching the host when you eat it?

I feel like I'm missing something here.

[kenny blankenship]

8. the host is not an it, "it's" a he and his name is Jesus

I call drumsticks!

I think the idea is that they don't want people palming the host and amassing a collection of them back home like baseball cards.

You give out a host on Sunday, you don't want to see it up for bids on Ebay Monday.

[moggie]

16. You certainly shouldn't put it on eBay

Instead, collect hosts until you have enough to build your very own full-size Jesus.

[Toasterlad]

39. I Totally Choked On Jesus the Last Time I Had Him In My Mouth.

What? I did.

[LibertyLover]

51. Collect a host and use it to provide fire protection to your house -

that's what they did in the medieval period. Some medieval gardeners also swore that planting a consecrated host in their gardens gave them better yields. There are lots of things you can do with the host!

[awoke_in_2003]

55. it's a freakin cracker. nt

[Harry Monroe]

11. Yeah, but you've better dare not chew it!!

I was actually taught this in Catholic elementary school. To chew the host was tantamount to making Jesus bleed. We were taught to let the host dissolve on the tongue. I remember the host ended up being stuck to the roof of my mouth and I ended up trying to pry it off using my tongue.

BTW, isn't the whole Eucharist thing tantamount to cannibalism anywaY??

[rockymountaindem]

12. Don't ask me, I'm Jewish

We only do the wine thing, and that's just because everybody likes wine!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. But the wine is NOT the blood of Christ though the miracle of

transmutation of the wine into the blood

And the host transforms from simple bread to flesh.

For a jew is just plain out the fruit of the vine... different concept, thanking for the fruit of the land.

And yes, I am Jewish... blame my knowledge of the difference in concept on four in the morning talks with a Jesuit Priest when on duty as a medic

Slow night... what can I say? I got an education, and he got an education... those philosophical discussions were FUN!

[Harry Monroe]

30. I used to be an altar boy and used to sneak a nip of the "sacremental" wine

[Hawkeye-X]

82. Rabbi Tucker says...

Faygelah?

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. If that happens, you should ask for an extra large swig of wine, and gargle

I'm sure that will dislodge it. :evilgrin:

[ZombieHorde]

36. When I was a kid,

I used to try to keep the host from dissolving long enough to go to the bathroom, spit it into the urinal and pee on it.

BTW, isn't the whole Eucharist thing tantamount to cannibalism anywaY??

I hope so!

[lib2DaBone]

72. Ya.. I remember that too... the nuns would slap our hands...

I don't know.. the whole Body of Christ and Blood of Jesus thing is pretty creepy. It's all a belief system based on superstition... like Santa Claus.

You add in the the incense burning and the fancy robes.. and you got P.T. Barnum. The only thing missing would be a laser light show from Guns and Roses.

With all this blood drinking and body eating.. how come the world is so fucked up? Just sayin'.....

[Riverman]

5. Only two things will enable the Catholic Church to survive for a

few more centuries - god forbid! Allow women to become priests and priests to marry! As a young catholic I was given the sign - as a nun told my mother at my baptism, that this son will be a priest and thus I was raised to be one. Fortunately nature interceded. As a horny 15 yr old, I told a priest counselor in my high school that despite that given avocation, I actually wanted to get married (read have sex) and raise children. His response was immediate as he said in a horrified, authoritative tone, "You are too young to make that decision." Too bad fatha - my hormones already made that decision! That day was the beginning of the end of my association with the Church! I felt that how could somebady who knew nothing about marriage, sex or children have any experience or knowledge to counsel or give advise to anyone on such crucial matters of life. I should send the guy a thank you note for steering me away from a life of self-repression, loneliness and misery.

And, if priests could marry, they would stay way too busy making and taking care of their own little members of the flock and therefore be too damn exhausted as parents to have any time or energy to screw around in other people's lives! OK this doesn't address the non-Catholic evangelicals and Mormans - but its a start!

[TlalocW]

26. Two college friends of mine got married in the Catholic church

Even though he's an atheist, and she's a lapsed Catholic. Daddy was a bigwig in the community, and it wouldn't look right if they didn't wed in the church. They did have to go to the Catholic marriage bootcamp though, and at one point the priest took all the men in the group away for a talk about what marriage means to Catholics and to answer any questions. One guy asked if oral sex was okay, and that flummoxed the priest so much that he pretty much just stammered and stuttered around trying to find the more non-offensive words he could in his explanation until finally he was trying not to say a certain word, and my friend couldn't stand it any longer as he stood up and yelled, "Ejaculate! The word is ejaculate! It's not a bad word! Just say it!"

Somehow they got married even after having sex in the rectory... which sounds like it's something different, but it's not.

TlalocW

[Oak2004]

45. Oh they know plenty about sex and children

Marriage, not so much.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

7. Works if all priests are pedophiles and are of one mind.

The catch is they aren't. Why switch to another church not to believe in?

[northernsoul]

13. Or if the organization the pedophiliac priests work for aids and abets their crimes

The fact that the Vatican is sheltering Bernard Law from answering for his obstruction of justice is the tip of a very ugly iceberg.

P.S. switching to no church whatsoever is precisely the solution I would advocate.

[nini]

17. I know priests who have fought for the victims and work to help them to this day

but please keep believing they're all assholes - it's much easier that way.

[northernsoul]

20. I'm talking about the Church Hierarchy

The hierarchy has actively aided and abetted monsters. I'm sure there's some good individual priests, but they belong to a morally bankrupt institution.

[hedgehog]

21. The problem is that there are absolutely no checks and balances on the hierarchy.

Canon law means exactly what the local bishop or the Vatican wants it to mean in a given case. The good priests are doing their best to protect their parishes, but they have no power to make any more significant changes. A lot of them have given up and moved on, which means the proportion of company men/jerks keeps climbing. Right now we have a bunch of bishops and cardinals selected by the most reactionary elements in the hierarchy. I don't know how these fools can be stopped.

[CatholicEdHead]

44. Actually, the laddar climbing fits the JPII model

in that loyalty matters above all. Everything else is secondary to following the highest levels of the Vatican 100%, no exceptions. :puke:

On the personal side, the two worst priests I have ever come across have been bumped up. One to Bishop, one is on the short list to Bishop. The good, reasonable ones are looked down upon because they do not kick them out as they are still needed, but are only tolerated at best.

[hedgehog]

15. This is the on-coming storm in a nutshell. If you thought the Episcopalians

had troubles, just watch what we Catholics are going to go through the next decade or so! The problem is we love our Church, but not the Vatican. Too many people think that the Vatican and the Church are one in the same.

[Sal Minella]

25. Ratzinger certainly seems to be under that impression. Can you convince him he's not Head Honcho?

[Oak2004]

46. Yeah, I'm just waiting for the big fat American schism to entertain me

I have lots of good Catholic family members, so it'll be great popcorn time. They tried in vain to raise me a Catholic, but I didn't buy into it by an early age.

Hey, does that mean they took the Lord's name in vain?? ;)

[Mari333]

10. my mother will love this. nt

[nini]

14. communion rail - LOL

My nephew is a priest and he hates it when the old timers insist on receiving communion on their tongues. He will not be happy about that LOL

[hedgehog]

18. God bless him, he sounds like the kind of priest we need! Too many of

the young guys are priests so they can be the most important person in their circle!

[nini]

19. He's pretty liberal as are many of his friends I have met

He's in it for the right reasons - to help the poor etc.. There is hope :D

[dana_b]

42. sounds like my step dad

he was a pretty liberal priest until he decided that he didn't want to be a lonely, old priest. He got his dispensation from the church ages ago. Anyway, he worked for the poor, helped to give aid to he needy in the community, and stayed with the prisoners until they entered the gas chamber. There are definitely good ones out there.

[dflprincess]

33. Having made First Communion before Vatican II, it took me a while to adjust to taking it in my hand

- though now I would agree with your nephew and would find putting in on the tonuge icky.

At one of my cousin's weddings about 25 years ago my grandma had a stand off with the priest - there was no way she would take Communion in her hand and this particular priest apparently didn't think he had to give in to old ladies. The went through him saying "Body of Christ" and grandma saying "Amen" and sticking her tongue out about 5 times before the priest finally caved in. Later Gram said she shouldn't have taken communion because, by the time she got it, she was "thinking thoughts".

If you nephew is young, he needs to appreciate how the older crowd had it hammered into them that it was "sinful" to have our unconsecrated fingers touch the host - and God forbid it should brush against our teeth while it disolved in our mouths.

[nini]

41. haha - go Grandma!

My nephew is young - 29 - one of the youngest in the diocese.

He understands the older crowd - he's heard the stories of our Catholic school days and how we were told our fingers would burn if we ever touched the host LOL, and how it was hard for us to adjust to taking communion in our hands. Of course he grew up after all that and thinks we're nuts when we talk about these things (he has a good sense of humor and these conversations get funny)

He doesn't hesitate to give them communion, just hates the way they move and he touches their tongue. Not to mention spreading germs during flu season. I never drink the wine for that reason - I won't sip after a million other people - eeeewwwwww :D

[dflprincess]

43. If he hasn't done so already,

tell him to read the "Growing Up Catholic" books - they're a hoot.

[nini]

47. Have you seen Late Nite Catechism?

too funny.. I felt like I was 8 years old in Sister Monica's class again. :D

[dflprincess]

48. Oh yeah,

I went with my friends who had gone to Catholic school, one of them had to put her gum on her nose. My parents sent me to public school and I only saw the nuns at Catechism (which was plenty). I've always maintained that the nuns went a little easier on us because our parents didn't love us enough to send us to Catholic school :evilgrin:

[nini]

49. Did they get a glow in the dark rosary?

LOL That show was so on target it was ridiculous :D

[awoke_in_2003]

56. Was Sister Monica hot?

Please, tell me she was :evilgrin:

[nini]

74. She could certainly kick your ass

or swat the crap out of you with a ruler.

tsk tsk

[awoke_in_2003]

75. I have always had

naughty fantasies about nuns. Nothing like deflowering a "bride of christ". (I really hope I am right about no afterlife- if not, I am in deep shit :) )

[shrike]

54. I've never taken it in my hand

Except when I have a cold. Don't want to breathe on the priest, but then again, hands also spread germs. It's always been optional in my parish, hand or mouth; special orders don't upset us sort of thing.

[awoke_in_2003]

58. "It's always been optional in my parish, hand or mouth"

sounds like a fun church :)

[shrike]

77. I've really got to reread what I write before I post it

:eyes:

[awoke_in_2003]

79. It is not you...

it's me, I am a bit twisted :hi:

[WVRICK13]

22. Herr Ratzinger

has not changed much since the 1940s. The major change is his clothes became lighter in color.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. I'm so glad that I'm not a Catholic.

I can't imagine trying to put myself through all those contortions to try to stay within Church doctrine. My sympathies to those who are trying to make it work for themselves.

[hedgehog]

27. The problem is that we had an incredible renewal back in the1960's.

The Hell Catholics left. (A Hell Catholic is someone who goes to Mass only out of fear of going to Hell.)

A large number of Catholics welcomed this return to what really mattered and disposal of a lot of clutter. The renewal emphasized such concepts as the fact that God loves us (he really does!)and that the world is Holy. Also, we are meant to be Jesus present in the World for each other. The corollary is that Jesus is present not only in the Sacrament but also in thee community.

A smaller number of Catholics have clung fiercely to the old customs and the attitude that God is some grand King to be approached on bended knee because we are not worthy. (Well, of course we're not, but God loves us anyways and his Son has invited us to a banquet!) The corollary of this attitude is that only priests are worthy to approach the altar. The rest of us have to approach God through the priests. (Boy, is this sounding familiar to non-Catholic Christians out there?)

Of course, a lot of Catholics will go along with almost anything.

So, the problem isn't a matter of trying to stay within Church doctrine as interpreted by the hierarchy. The problem is preserving our community while somehow reforming or disposing of the hierarchy!

[Harry Monroe]

32. I follow what doctrines I agree with and screw the rest!!

And I feel no guilt whatsoever. No celibate male is going to tell me or my wife that we cannot use birth control or not have an abortion. The size of my family and how I choose to have sex is none of their business. Many American Catholics are in the 21st century on this, while the Vatican is stuck in the Middle Ages.

[awoke_in_2003]

59. You will feel even better...

when you realize it is ALL bs.

[kenny blankenship]

61. Not necessarily

Being an atheist can hold terrors fully equal to the terror the believer has of Hell. Being afraid, though, isn't an argument for refusing to face what your reason tells you, or refusing to face the enormity of what it can't tell you.

[awoke_in_2003]

62. Only if you, for some reason...

fear death. I do not. It is a natural cycle. You live, you die, you become fertilizer. I would rather face that than hold the belief that I am going to live for eternity in pain and suffering.

[kenny blankenship]

63. No it's not about fearing death.

[awoke_in_2003]

64. Then what is it?

The only down side I can see is that people might look at you funny when they find out you are atheist. I really could care less. But if one did, most of the time when religion is brought up it can be deflected by saying "I am not religious"

[kenny blankenship]

68. Honestly? It's nothing.

nevermind.

[awoke_in_2003]

73. I hope you don't think I was being confrontational...

If I came across that way, I apologize. Just trying to have an honest discussion, but I understand that "tone" doesn't always come across properly on the internet.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

34. People don't have to make contortions.

You believe what you want, and you reject what you want, just like any other church.

[Mike 03]

28. I know that Catholics are disgusted by the Pope.

I even secretly edited a book about this very topic.

It's true.

[Mike 03]

29. It's not just the Pope, though, it is the Catholic church and what it has

transmogrified into over the past decade or so.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

35. That stuff doesn't bother me.

I like the more traditional aspects of Christian worship. High Church, if you will. What bother me most is the Church's inflexibility on contraception, women ordination, and celibacy for the priests. Not to mention gay rights.

[CatholicEdHead]

37. It's the Sign of Peace, not the Kiss of Peace

usually it is just a handshake, but many dating or married couples hug or kiss during it. That gets some people uncomfortable. :crazy:

I have heard of the literal Latin translation coming back either Advent 09 or 10. I think it is a huge step back wards and a waste of time, but those put who those rules together do not care for the big, wide world, just he inner Church building.

I have not heard about the Alter Rail returning and no more Communion by the hand. Before Catholic Answers Forum banned me, those were not mentioned except they want to go there, not that there was anything in the works, and trust me, they would let you know at any whiff of any of that.

All this will do is push more to leave and the Institution will collapse for a few centuries before another renewal takes hold, and it will no matter how much fire and brimstone is tossed at it.

[hunter]

50. Ha ha! You got banned from Catholic Answers?

That's so cool. Think about things a bit too much, do we?

If I lived in a conservative parish, I'd probably be banned from Mass, or at least made uncomfortable to discourage me from coming back.

Fortunately it's all about Social Justice here, although some people do look at me kind of funny when the recognize me for my very outspoken opposition to Proposition 8.

[CatholicEdHead]

66. Yep

I lasted about a year and a half. I was very civil (like I am on DU), but I ruffled more than a few feathers by defending the endless circle jerk attacks on homosexuality/gay marriages. That and telling people not to freak out over every little thing that happens at mass (they are hyper-sensitive over there over every little thing). My final IM with the mod there tried to kick me out over abortion, but I defended myself. In the end the ultimatum was to be "Catholic" to them I had to follow and agree 100% with what Rome said, no questions allowed. :crazy: :puke: Unless you are that, you cannot be "Catholic" to them. It is a very depressing and spiritually draining place over there.

[shrike]

53. Funny thing is, I've met a lot of people who left over the Vatican II

changes. They'd probably love for the Latin Mass to come back.

[hedgehog]

71. Is there a forum for Vatican II Catholics?

[Phredicles]

38. Is this for real? Is there maybe a link?

It's been a long time since I was Catholic, so this doesn't affect me directly. But I teach at a Catholic school, and the kind of drama this sort of thing engenders gets really obnoxious.

[CatholicEdHead]

40. Here you go

For the first one, going to a literal translation of Latin in some parts from what we have now which is written for our times, not long ago.

http://canadian-catholic.blogspot.com/2008/09/changes-coming-in-catholic-mass.html


Here is a link on the Sign of Peace changes which they are talking about and will probably come within 2yrs or so.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802209.html

The last part is probably related to XVI's personal preference to give out communion in mass in Rome. I cannot find any other directive that anything will change at the parish level anytime soon.

http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/06/26/pope-benedict-sets-the-norm-for-receiving-communion.htm

[shrike]

52. Hedgehog, you're a dear, I love your posts, but I wish you hadn't posted this in GD

There are usually at least two why-I-hate-the-Catholic-Church threads a week; sometimes more.

The problem isn't the reality-based criticism, but the stuff that comes out of the twilight zone. I've read things in the past few weeks that I never thought I'd read on a progressive website. Some of them are so incredible I did some research and found similar, even identical statements, in old Klan pamphlets.

[hedgehog]

70. I am caught between being appalled and being amused at liberals

whose notions of the Catholic Church is based on Maria Monk. Some people will cling to their prejudices, but I hope that some will learn that the Catholic Church is more than the pronouncements of the hierarchy.

The reason I started this thread is that I suspect about 90% of the Catholics out there have no idea of what's coming down from the Vatican. How many are unaware that parishes are being shut down throughout the world?

[shrike]

76. I wonder if communion rails are even feasible in most churches

It certainly would not be in mine. And it's a fairly new church. There are about six or seven communion stations at each mass. I'm trying to visualize in my mind how the heck this would work and I can't.

[rvablue]

83. Yep, people tend to forget that the Klan hates Catholics as much as they hate others.

The prolific and often profane anti-Catholic smears on DU saddens me to no end.

Imagine for a second if you took the word Catholic out some sentences posted on here and put in another religion.

Not only would it get deleted, one would most likely be banned.

And although totally progressive on most other subjects, the smears and hate are allowed. A sad commentary......

[DemBones DemBones]

57. I'm sure we can all learn to pronounce "consubstantial" if we

don't already know how.

Those who are unhappy with the changes could always become Episcopalians, but, oops, they take Communion kneeling at the altar rail and receive on the tongue, just like Catholics did before Vatican II.

[SharonAnn]

80. Well, we learned "transubstantiation" as children, so I'm sure we could.

[southernyankeebelle]

60. Some are good changes.

I wish they take away the peace be with you and hand shaking. I don't like that and it is very hard for me to do that. I always try to make sure I stand by family and people I know. It is so phony. It won't bother me to take it out. To be honest I grew up pre-vatican II. I saw nothing wrong with it. I liked the latin mass and I miss it. I don't like taking communion the way they do it now. I like the priest to give it to me on the tongue and I don't mind kneeling down at the rails. It is a sign of respect for receiving the body of christ. But saying all that I can't stand this new Pope. The church is losing catholics at a high rate. They should be embracing our gay friends and stop trying to be like the evanagelicas. Somewhere along the way trying to get along with the other faiths the catholic church left what was good about it. It was good at helping the working poor, justice for the poor and help them find housing and health care. Now they are only concerned about issues like gays and abortions. In the everyday life people will seek out the help of church on these issues IF they want the churches help. But what is happening now is that they are imposing the churchs rights on others and that is why all churchs are losing members. We want the churchs to stay out of the bedroom. Until then I have stopped going to church because I don't want my priest telling me who to vote or. I pray direct to god and say my rosary. I don't need some priest or reverend to tell me what my sins are when they have their own to worry about.

[KamaAina]

65. The Archdiocese of NOLA is targeting African American parishes for closure

Right now parishes are being shut down all over the world because there aren't enough priests.

At least one of them is Uptown, in the "Sliver by the River" that never flooded.

http://toulousestreet.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/the-shepherds-and-the-wolves

Today the Archdiocese of New Orleans will announce the closure of additional parishes. These are not those drowned by the failure of the federal levees. Take for example Our Lady of Good Counsel on Louisiana Avenue in Uptown new (sic) Orleans. Accomplished local novelist (and blogger) Poppy Z. Brite distributed a statement that tells us the story of the church where she was just baptized into the Catholic faith this past Easter:...

Here is the beautiful building the Archdiocese intends to sell off to the highest bidder. Given the building type, unless another faith's congregation takes it over it will be demolished. I wish the same fate on those who would demolish this as others wish on the Taliban who demolished the great cliff Buddhas. The two groups differ only in degree, not kind.

In the aftermath of the attempts to destroy the nation's oldest African-American Catholic congregation and the demolition of Cabrini Church, I'm near speechless. What more can I say about Archbishop Alfred C. Hughes and his arch-henchman Fr. William Maestri? Having dropped the F-bomb more times this week than I have in all the months and years since 8-29, I think this time insteadd I'll just quote (but not profess) the words of a simple carpenter whose teachings Hughes and Maestri once swore to profess: Forgive them. They know now (sic) what they do....

The Catholic Church, an anchor of this Franco-Iberian founded city, is just another institution that betrays us, just as government–the city, the state, and the central government–have betrayed us. Each of these looked on our suffering and saw an opportunity for profit and advancement. Tomorrow the NOLA Bloggers will bury our good friend Ashley Morris, and we will remember one thing he leaves behind, his own charge to people not his disciples but certainly his comrades: Sinn Fein, Ourselves Alone. The Church's actions today remind us that the institutions we have trusted are now run not by shepherds but by wolves. We can only save ourselves by our own actions and in spite of them.

(yes, the KamaAina in the comments is the same as the one here; the blogger used to be known around here as "markus")

[CatholicEdHead]

67. Happing alot in Minnesota too

We have many "Area Faith Communities", which are 2-4 parishes consolidated with one priest. And a few parishes are becoming "Oratories", so there is no regular mass or parish, but the building can be used for special events (Weddings, Funerals).

[hedgehog]

69. United we stand, divided we fall? If all the parishes facing clsure would get together to fight,

we'd stand a better chance!

[Javaman]

78. Meh, he's just an old guy in a funny hat. nt

[Liberal In Texas]

81. As a non-catholic, I don't give a whit what you do in your church. Dance naked for all I care.

Just stay out of my life and out of my government.