They may have taken impeachment off the table, but at least they made a spot for homophobia.

[Bjorn Against]

They told us that impeachment was off the table. They knew about the torture, they knew about the warrantless wiretapping, they knew about the lies, but they refused to give those of us who wanted accountability a seat at the table. They told us that it would be too divisive to even talk about holding war criminals accountable, instead they wanted to unite America.

Now many of the same people who told us that we couldn't bring impeachment to the table because it would be too divisive are telling us that we need to give the idea that gays are the equivalent of pedophiles a place on the table. We are now supposed to listen to these people when they tell us that gay people are just not worthy of the same rights as everyone else. We are supposed to listen to their opinions about how our family members, friends and neighbors are sinners who are no different from child molesters, and we are supposed to respect that opinion.

Well fuck that. I do not respect bigoted opinions, and I am not going to start respecting bigoted opinions. Bigots don't deserve a seat at the table on matters of civil rights, and they certainly don't deserve to be honored with a prime speaking position during one of the biggest political events in American history. Yet we are being told that if we don't respect the opinions of this bigot then we are the ones that are being intolerant.

If you don't respect the views of a bigot then you are not being tolerant because that bigot says it is his religion to think of gays as pedophiles. If he says it is his religion then it must be respected they tell us. You are supposed to listen to the bigot, but don't expect anyone to listen to you when you ask for equal rights because this is not the right time for that they will tell you. Just wait a while and maybe some day in the future they will listen to your calls for equality, but first they want to listen to Rick Warren tell them how promiscuous you all are.

Yes, they want you to listen to Rick Warren but don't you dare ask that they actually listen to you. They didn't listen to you when you said there would be a disaster if we invaded Iraq. They didn't listen to you when you said we needed a single-payer universal health care system because soon people would be unable to afford their insurance premiums. They didn't listen to you when you asked for them to obey the Constitution and stop illegally wiretapping your phone. They didn't listen to you when you asked them to stop the Military Commissions Act and end torture. When you asked if a criminal would be held accountable for his crimes you were told that impeachment was off the table, but at least they had a reserved a spot at the table for homophobia and they were going to invite Rick Warren to sit in that seat.

Well I am sick of it. I am sick of the centrists telling me that I need to listen to bigots, while at the same time refusing to listen to me. This is not just about Obama, this is about the Democratic Party leadership as a whole. Obama has some problems, but he is by no means the worst of the bunch. We have millions of Americans who believe in progressive values yet the centrists are always telling us that we need to compromise to get things done. We need to compromise, not them but us. They will take what they call the “moderate position” and insist that they are in the sensible center already so they don't need to compromise further, but instead we need to move over to their position.

I am not so willing to compromise however. I will not compromise on basic human rights issues. I will not compromise when it comes to my belief that criminals should be held accountable even if they live in the White House. I will not compromise when it comes to rejecting torture. And I will not compromise with bigots who want to take rights away from gay couples.

They can ask me to reach out all that they want to, but the only reaching out I am going to do is reaching out to smack the bigots upside the head with the truth.

[madeline_con]

1. Well fuck that, indeed!!!.

"Just wait a while and maybe some day in the future they will listen to your calls for equality, but first they want to listen to Rick Warren tell them how promiscuous you all are."

Fucking A!!! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Fearless]

50. Why is it that people say..

We're listening to Warren and he isn't listening to us? Maybe he is. Maybe neither is really listening to each other. At any rate, dialog is important. They will not change their minds on their own. Ignorance and intolerance will not simply go away if we shun them. We have to confront the core issues here and cripple them. Attack the beliefs not the individual. An individual will not listen and will not change if you attack them. Prove to them their views are wrong without blatantly telling them they're wrong, ie let them figure it out for themselves with guidance, and they will change for real.

[mentalslavery]

75. thank you for thinking.

Its appreciated, really. Read this individuals other posts and you will quickly see the blatant lack of understanding regarding what we are facing and how to deal with it. Unfortunately, this individual is relevant only because what the posts advocate is reckless and might motivate others to toward reckless activism.

[Skittles]

2. YOU KNOW IT, MN

I can't believe how many DUers bought into this "unity" garbage

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. !!!

:applause:

[Mari333]

4. k and r

[ProgressIn2008]

5. Ugh. Bush and Cheney will walk away free but I have to compromise with Warren??

So unnecessary, too. Bush politics was crushed so why legitimize that RW bigotry, except for cheap and cynical political gain? The RW was exposed for the ugliness that it is -- why give it new life?

[Bjorn Against]

6. You don't have to compromise.

If we support equal rights then there can be no compromise, as the moment you compromise those rights are no longer equal. They can ask us to compromise all they want, but the more they beg us to cave in the louder we need to raise our voices in opposition. Right-wing politics are on their deathbed, and we don't need to legitimize them.

[mitchtv]

7. let me give it another R

great post I agree

[leftstreet]

8. K&R

Watching Obama go for "wedge" issues leaves me absolutely dumbfounded.

:wtf:

[Bjorn Against]

9. Anyone thinking we are going to unite America by talking wedge issues with bigots dumbfounds me.

[leftstreet]

10. Agree.

It's nuts

[Starry Messenger]

11. k & r

[Solly Mack]

12. K&R

[Senator]

13. Quite True -- Torture, Crime, and Bigotry Are All The "Same Issue"

And none are really all that "leftist."

They are just the things the DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy refuses to consult the Sovereign American People about.

---

[Cults4Bush]

14. Word. n/t

[asteroid2003QQ47]

15. K&R --Lesser of 2 evils is still evil! n/t

[lonestarnot]

16. I'm an enlisted puke waiting for orders!

[Bette Noir]

17. I agree.

I still hope Obama will do right, but I don't have the confidence in him I had a few months ago.

[closeupready]

49. I do not either, sadly. I wanted to, but this is yet another indicator

that he is not the friend to the GLBT community that we thought he was.

[mentalslavery]

18. More bs from MN against Bush

Yeah, there are so many people telling you this! Really! Provide some links! Who are "they", which leaders. Which leaders have come out and said, "Hey, listen to Rich Warren and respect bigots!". I have heard people use words like "compromise" and "reach out", which you gleefully argue MEAN=slight the gays. This is pure Republican Noise Machine stuff. They will tell you THIS-woooo!!! They will tell you THAT-woooo!! The answer is to smack bigots upside the head with truth.

You are so down with the movement. Glad to see that your level of commitment excludes talking. King! What a sellout! Why don't you publish something that tells people what they can do to aid the movement along in specific terms. Like I have used this tactic when dealing with increased hate aggression in this area. Or this argument tends to work in this situation. Or, have you ever done anything to drag social justice forward?

Its so radical of you to give flaming lip service to the cause. Why don't you bring yourself down to the deep south. How about that for a compromise! And then reach out to someone who is currently being brainwashed as well as emotionally abused. It shows so much respect for bigots to "turn out" an Evangelic. Like, their parents totally invite me to dinner all the time. I'll introduce you to some of "those" "Bigots", that you dogmatically claim will never change, who are now liberal activist. Who have started NOW chapters, and Amnesty organizations.

Take the mentalslavery challenge, for anyone recommending or encouraging this mindless analysis. Come on down! I'm serious! I will hook you up with a free place to stay on a University campus. I will give you private contact information as well as documentation that I am who I claim. If MN stands for Minnesota, I have liberal activist connections up there, so you can check me out. U in the Twin Cities Area?

[Bjorn Against]

21. Actually this is more BS from you.

Do you remember the last post of mine that you responded to? It was in large part about how I used to be a right-winger myself, and the fact that I had changed. I am sure you remember this because you wrote a couple long rambling posts that completely misrepresented what I had said. Now you are back to misrepresenting me again by saying that I "dogmatically claim" that people will never change. Clue for you, a person who changed in the way I have would NEVER claim that people can't change and you know damn well that you are misrepresenting me.

I am not going to spend hundreds of dollars on airfare to the deep south to spend the weekend with someone who is going to misrepresent me. If you had at least been honest then I would have considered speaking with your friends up here in the Twin Cities area, but you have to show you are trustworthy if you expect me to meet with your people. So far all three of your responses to my posts have misrepresented my positions, that shows me you are not trustworthy. I can handle disagreement, but I can not put up with people misrepresenting me and I will not trust you or any of your supposed "liberal activist" friends.

[mentalslavery]

73. BS? Me or U? New excuses 2?

Yes, I remember your last post and response. I responded to that response and totally destroyed every argument you attempted to make. Never heard back from you regarding that.....strange?

First of all-once again-you never claimed to be a religious right winger, the warren type, but claim some special knowledge of fundamentalist (which is actually what we are dealing with) because you are an X-libertarian. Thats totally weak, there is no connection. Libertarians have always been at odds with fundies. Whats new?

Stop posting about topics you don't know anything about. It is embarrassing. You don't know about religious right wingers, its ok-most liberals don't. Nor do they know how to change them. But, I do. So as long as you, and others, publish this drivel. I will be here. Calling you out.

Say something substantive in your post. This is self-aggrandizement and you know it. We get it, you care. "Im going to smack them upside the head with the truth". Really, how does that work? How does that advance the movement? Give me just one concrete suggestion of what the average person can do to advance equality?

Your suggestions and rhetoric are so off base-I'm beginning to think your a troll. What you are advocating is exactly the way we can screw this up. Have you ever done any type of activist work? Seeing as how you claim to be a convert from the libertarian wing of politics then I don't see how it would be possible.

Have you ever worked with oppressed populations? We pay dues in this "bitch", if you don't know then you don't know. Ive paid my dues. Ive paid too much. Not about to let "hard-ons" such as yourself get on the job training at the expense of our forward progress. Shut up and go pay some dues. Get your ass shot at working with gangs. Get stabbed working for affordable housing non-profits. Get bite and kicked working with the mentally disabled. Do it for little to no pay. Then we will see how skippy you are, peanutbutter.

[orleans]

19. oh, come on--we are the party of "inclusion"

and that, apparently, includes racists, bigots, homophobes, poison pill motherfuckers, and chauvinist pigs

[Jamastiene]

20. Can I give you a hug?

:hug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. Warren was invited to give an invocation. He was not invited to talk about homosexuality

[Bjorn Against]

24. Being honored with a prime speaking spot during an extremely historic event.

You don't honor bigotry. And while he may not talk about gays during the invocation, I sure have heard a lot of rhetoric about how we need to "respect different opinions" and "reach out to those we disagree with" in regards to Warren. I have been hearing a lot of talk about how we have to compromise, well screw that I will never compromise with a bigot.

[antimatter98]

23. I think: They took America off the table.

We have complicity and it didn't just take impeachment off the table,
but it took America off the table: It's values, it's laws, it's Constitution,
business and banking ethics, and has virtually killed the American spirit
by scamming and duping ordinary Americans in war and in peace.

The damage done by Bush/Cheney and their Congressional enablers will take
more than four years to fix---assuming that there is a fix and that those
about to enter government service WANT to devote themselves to fixing things.

For sure, Americans are on the menu, but the idea of America as I mentioned
above has been taken off the table.

What will we do now? One hint is: the ones who control the major media,
set the tone. Another hint: Congress is not accountable to
its true constituents, but to lobbyists, elite money and other interests.

[Hydra]

39. Deserves it's own OP

Bravo!

[navarth]

64. very well, spoken, antimatter. respects.

[Leftest]

25. K&R

Very well said MN.

:hi:

[LWolf]

26. K & R nt

[Mithreal]

27. I stand strong with you. Compromising with bigots and treasonous

criminals has gone on long enough.

I wonder if PE Obama NEEDS us to push this much MUCH harder or he will not have the cover he needs to pursue those who have and would destroy our fellow Americans' very lives.

[Bjorn Against]

29. He absolutely does need us to push harder.

I am sure there are things that Obama knows need to be done, but that he also knows he would be crucified for suggesting. Obama was a community organizer on the south side of Chicago, he has worked in impoverished neighborhoods and he knows the struggles they face. He attended a church that was in favor of gay marriage. He was outspoken against the war in Iraq before it even started, and even gave a speech at an anti-war protest. I think he is probably a lot closer to us than he may appear when you read his policy statements, as he knows that he needs to win votes and so he does not want to rock the boat too much. If others rock the boat however, then he will have a reason to invite us to the table. I think if we can prove not only to him but to the American people that there is strong support for progressive ideals, then I think there is a good chance that Obama will apopt those ideals. Until he does however we need to hold his feet to the fire, I believe Obama is a person that we have a good chance of convincing but we are not going to convince him unless we fight hard for what we believe in.

[Jankyn]

28. K/R...N/T

[TechBear_Seattle]

30. Why are you trying to get Republicans elected?

:sarcasm:

Sorry, I was channelling the spirit of DU pre-election. Your post was very well written, thank you. :hug:

[AntiFascist]

31. K&R...

we can also reach out to the evangelical flock and try to show them the error of their leadership. Some may actually listen.

[EFerrari]

32. Reaching out to bigots and criminals is not generosity but complicity. n/t

[mentalslavery]

74. Really, then why did you "reach out" to them in your

opednews piece?

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_elizabet_080415_to_small_town_pennsy.htm

Or maybe you did not know that those small town penns. are opposed to gay marriage. Hows your hunting dog? And tell me, what have you done about those evangelical congregations that meet a block away from your house. You go call them all bigots yet?

Talk about pandering.

[Obamalution]

33. Oh...my goodness...

First of all, I'll disclose that I am a straight man...with gay friends...who agree with me that the corporate media is using this Rick Warren crap as a weapon of mass distraction...and a weapon of mass division (within the democratic party). So far, with the help of supposedly progressive tv and radio show hosts, they are succeeding in dividing the democratic party on this worthless wedge issue. What's progressive about division of the people?... It's an oxymoronic question. By the way, I know that this is the innauguration we're talking about here, but nevertheless it is still symbolic... It's not like Obama is hiring Rick Warren into his administration or anything close to it. I wonder why no one is talking about gay-FRIENDLY Joseph Lowery giving the benediction... It's because the corporate media doesn't WANT that to distract us from their weapon of mass distraction. Thank you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. There's no way the feeling on DU comes from the corporate media

It's heart-felt - things that are the 'subject of the day' may get lots of threads about them, but they fizzle out quickly. The ones on this subject continue, and get huge, with heated arguments. It's dominating the discussion here.

DUers - the majority, I'd say - are very pissed off about Warren being invited to speak. It seems such a pointless insult of gay people. It bodes ill for the future of gay rights under Obama.

[Hydra]

40. If there is division here

Then there's good reason for it- the fundamental issue here is simple: Do LBGTers deserve equal rights and consideration.

There are some who say "no." That's a problem.

[awoke_in_2003]

46. "That's a problem"

And that is an understatement. I cannot believe the things I have seen the last few days. Equal right for all- or none.

[leftstreet]

41. With all the "gay friends" people have here, you'd think this would be a no-brainer

:eyes:

I'm a straight male who doesn't need to have "gay friends" in order to recognize a human rights issue when I see one.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. That is the new tag line...

it replaces "I know black people"

[derby378]

34. Boo-yah, baby!

When Fancy nancy pelosi started talking about "A New Direction for America," I knew that was bullshit. Someone in the Democratic Party definitely has their priorities out of whack, and the nation is suffering because of it.

[Baby Snooks]

37. Pray them away....

Well pray Rick Warren away. And next time, vote the rest of them away. Particularly Nancy Pelosi. And most definitely Barack Obama. And absolutely Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton and her husband Bubba of Arabia.

[DutchLiberal]

35. They don't listen to you (us), because they don't care.

Simple as that.

[dbackjon]

38. Awesome post!!

[MissDeeds]

42. Well said

K&R :kick:

[MasonJar]

43. We need to do much more than post. We must be very loud--e-mail,

call, show up, but never give up or in. I totally agree with article, but I want us to act and insist. Otherwise it will never be! Obama has been and still is centrist! He may be a potentially great president, but he will not prosecute the thugs unless we, the people, demand it. It is our government. Now is the best time in 8 long, excruciating years to take it back. At least this crew will listen, if we are loud enough. I am confident that Obama wishes he had never asked Warren to do the convocation. It was a thoughtless, hurtful act. I cannot sincerely believe Obama would have done that if he had truly thought it through on all levels. At least I hope for the country's sake he would not have.

[Bjorn Against]

45. I agree fully.

We do need to be active, I am quite active but I am trying to be more active at the same time. I get out in the streets and protest every week, and I write plenty of letters as well. I post here on DU quite often as well, and while that may not be the same thing as getting out in the streets and doing something I actually do reach a lot of people this way. I think a lot of people underestimate how many people they can reach by posting on blogs or messageboards, I have found some of the material I have written here get posted elsewhere on the internet and I have reached thousands of people just by putting up posts that took me less than an hour to write. We should not limit ourselves though, blogs are great and they can reach a lot of people, but you also have to reach the people who will never read any political blogs so we need to take to the streets as well to get the message out to an audience who would never hear us otherwise.

[2QT2BSTR8]

44. Bravo! Well said! Thank you!

[natrat]

48. kind of like -they know the bank bailout is fraud......

[keepCAblue]

51. Damn, too late for me to recommend! Thank you. Perfectly stated. n/t

[countmyvote4real]

52. k&R

[Nay]

53. Yeah, what MN sez. n/t

[George II]

54. Absolutely NO connection between the two!!!

[Bjorn Against]

63. There is a connection.

If they are telling us we need to make a seat at the table for Rick Warren then I think it is perfectly fair to ask why they explicitly told us there was no place at the table for us.

[George II]

67. Impeachment is a process, not a person. And they relate to completely different issues.

[Bjorn Against]

68. There are many people who support impeachment, none were listened to.

And if they truly want to reach out to people with different views then it shouldn't matter what issue we are talking about.

[George II]

69. No one questions that....but,

equating impeachment with homophobia is a disservice to gays. Unless you have a rational connection?

[Bjorn Against]

70. I am not equating the two issues.

I am just pointing out that they are willing to listen to homophobes, but they are not willing to listen to those who want accountability for a war criminal. Judging by the responses I have received from members of the gay community it seems as if many of them share my frustration as most of them have been very supportive of what I have written on this issue.

[George II]

71. "They" have listend to those who want accounability...

..."they" just used their judgement to decide it would not be appropriate at the time. It would never get through Congress.

And "they" have NOT decided to listen to homophobes - the only participation that Rick Warren will have in the inauguration is the invocation - the opening prayer. It will not be a prayer against gays. And Reverend Lowery will be giving the benediction.

All you guys have done is give Warren more publicity than he deserves.

[mentalslavery]

76. thank you for thinking.

Its appreciated, really. Read this individuals other posts and you will quickly see the blatant lack of understanding regarding what we are facing and how to deal with it. Unfortunately, this individual is relevant only because what the posts advocate is reckless and might motivate others to toward reckless activism.

[WCGreen]

55. Well Said!

[IndianaJones]

56. haven't you heard? this was a genius move. nt.

[Bjorn Against]

57. Yeah, I heard it was going to unite everyone.

Just look around, everyone is unified because this choice has helped bring us all together. No division here at all, everyone wants to hold Rick Warren's hand and sing Kumbaya with him. Unless they are men of course, then they will hold his wife's hand instead because they wouldn't want to send the wrong message. Don't you feel the unity?

[IndianaJones]

58. at least we can reference about 100 ways to justify bigotry and bad decisions from the past few days

[Bjorn Against]

61. Yes, unfortunately we have learned that.

[Sandrine for you]

59. Homophobia and anything:

Homophobia and Poverty
Homophobia and 9/11
Homophobia and the Global Warming
Homophobia and Katrina
Homophobia and the New Depression
Homophobia and the Death Penalty
Homophobia and the Domestic Violence
Homophobia and the Iraq War
Homophobia and the tolled Election

Always the same subject with always the same people who K&R, people who are hijacking DU.

[90-percent]

60. Regrets

I regret that 24 hours has gone by and I can not be the 99th rec.

I think that conventional Christianity-approved heterosexual sex is about as twisted as you can get. Homosexual sex really ain't too far off in the weirdness scale comparatively speaking.

So what's the big deal?

Legislating away the rights of any selected group is about as UN-AMERICAN as it gets.

I hope all us organized Obamanians can ride our tremendous momentum and get this aberrant legislation righted in Cali soon!

-90% jimmy

[f the letter]

62. Amen! eom

n/t

[navarth]

65. I, also are too late to recommend, but

I can kick, and kick I do.

Minnesota, you're absolutely correct, passionate and forthright.

I would like to believe that we can reach bigots with the proper information, and given good intentions, perhaps we could reach them, or at least their children.

But I don't really know if it can happen. But I'll always try.

Doesn't look like it was a good idea for Barack to do this. Maybe he's got some other plan he's working on. Me, I'll take the activist approach and do my best to keep him honest, just like any other prez.

Happy Holidays to all

[Bjorn Against]

66. Don't get me wrong I think we could reach some of them...

I simply don't think we are going to get them to change by honoring them or legitimizing their viewpoints. If we want to change people we need to stand up and tell them in no uncertain terms what our position is, and we need to make it clear that we do not compromise on civil rights. If we want to win these people over to our side then we need to convince them that they are on the wrong side now, we do not convince them that they are on the wrong side by honoring their leader and acting as if homophobia is an acceptable position.

[IndianaGreen]

72. I love you rant so much, that I e-mailed to everyone I know!

If we remain silent, or allow ourselves to be pushed under the bus, they will only do it again to us.