Is religion always a choice?

[cali]

The brain is a mysterious thing. Thought patterns are literally mapped out in the brain at a very early age. Clearly this doesn't mean that if you're brought up in a very religious manner that you're permanently programmed. There are too many variables, including competing patterns of thought.

A majority of people brought up in a faith, stay in that faith. Is it only about conscious choice or are other factors in play?

[Goblinmonger]

1. Depends

Do you mean what church you belong to? Then yes.

Do you mean that we can choose what is important in our lives which will determine our view of the world? Then yes.

Do you mean that regardless of our view of the world we can change what we "believe"? Then no. There is no way at this point in my life I could "choose" to believe in god.

This discussion is going to go off the rails because of the words choose and believe.

[Zuni]

2. No. It is not a choice

I have always had my faith, I believe it is a Divine gift and it has stayed with me no matter what doubts and pains I had.

My Catholic faith is as much a part of me as stripes are part of a zebra.

Just because I am for gays being treated with all of the dignity and respect that every human being deserves doesn't make me any less Catholic.

[liberalhistorian]

124. I know what you mean about it being a "gift."

I grew up with agnostic parents hostile to any religion, and yet, ever since I can remember, I had faith and wanted to attend church. I was fortunate to have many church-going friends and would attend church with them. Then my parents sent me to a private religious school during my elementary years because they didn't like the local schools but couldn't afford the secular private schools, and my faith was affirmed and strengthened.

OTOH, I went through a very staunch agnostic phase for several years during college and young adulthood. When I returned to my faith, through the efforts of wonderful Christian friends among many other factors, it was both a gift and a choice. The faith still remained a gift, but I also made the concious choice to continue with it. So I think it's both, in some ways.

[Rebubula]

139. Birth place

Do you think that you would have been Catholic had you been born in India; China; Russia?

I am not trying to be a dick, but just a serious question. Is Faith different from religion?

I would say that religion is a choice; faith is not.

[bunnies]

3. I saw a show once...

wish I could remember the name...

Anyway, they were able to induce 'religious' experiences by stimulating a certain part of the brain. Seems that brain part is more active in some people than others.

Makes sense to me!

edit for disclosure: I have never, in my entire life, believed in any God.

[JTFrog]

45. So those of us who don't believe in imaginary people in the sky are deficient

or lacking activity in part of our brains?

Silliest thing I've read this morning.

[bunnies]

58. Clueless much?

You ARE aware that different people have more or less activity in different parts of the brain... are you not? :shrug:

edit to add: suggested reading on the subject: http://godpart.com/html/the_premise.html

[JTFrog]

59. Not only am I deficient in brain activity in the "faith" part of my brain, but overall clueless.

Yep cuz you said so and cuz your link proved your point.

[bunnies]

61. Geezus. You are the most defensive person EVER.

Take everything as an insult. Carry on.

[dmallind]

75. This is correct

There is a god center in the brain that can be both artificially and naturally (it's the same area that controls epilepsy). Can't remember if it's the frontal lobe or cortex - I'm nobody's idea of a neurologist - but very realistic epiphanies were indeed artificially created by this stimulation.

[bunnies]

87. Thank you!

I was beginning to think I dreamed it or something. :hi:

[ColbertWatcher]

102. Temporal lobe epilepsy ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2865009.stm

[moggie]

143. The right parietal lobe plays a part too

Research has found that damage to the right parietal lobe can increase "spirituality". See, for example, Spirituality linked to brain damage. From that page:

From a neuropsychological perspective, the right hemisphere allows for individuals to define themselves in relation to the immediate environment, the here-and-now. The right parietal lobe is generally associated with awareness of the self relative to other objects in space, awareness of the self as perceived by others in social situations, and the ability to critically evaluate one's own strengths and weaknesses (such as insight). Disorders of the right hemisphere involve a diminished capacity in the ability of the self to function in the immediate environment, including difficulties localizing the body in space...

In other words, it's this bit of the brain that figures out where you are in time and space. If it breaks down, you'll experience some pretty freaky sensations - which, if you are so inclined, the rest of your brain will interpret as a religious experience.

Of course, this is not the same as saying that all believers have brain damage, no matter how tempting the thought may be. :evilgrin:

[antipode]

4. Only a terribly weak-minded person would say it is not a choice.

I realize there are such.

[Zynx]

7. I'm really not sure that's true. I know some very smart people who feel a strong

pull toward religion. A number of people find the secular world un-fulfilling.

[antipode]

20. Perhaps there is a bit of wiggle room on the definition of religion.

I don't consider a pursuit of 'spirituality' as the concept is generally understood, to be a sign of mental illness or insufficiency.

[dflprincess]

122. There is a difference between faith and religion

granted if you had a particular brand pounded into you when you were young it is hard to break away (said the lapsed Catholic) but a thinking person can change. It doesn't necessarily mean you give up faith in a supreme being - it may just be changing the way you view God (or whatever you wish to call a deity) and your relationship to him.

[GodlessBiker]

10. Are beliefs choices? Actions are, but beliefs?

I would think our beliefs are givens, and we choose to act this or that way based on our beliefs.

We can choose to go to church or not go to church on any particular day. Can we choose to believe in God or not believe in God on any particular day?

[antipode]

21. Substitute Santa Claus for God and answer your own question.

:D

[GodlessBiker]

31. So you can choose to believe in Santa Clause today?

[antipode]

33. Not sure about today...but tomorrow night? Damn right!

:D

[GodlessBiker]

34. Yeah, right. So beliefs are not chosen. You simply have them.

[antipode]

38. I won't be articulating one of mine right this moment.

...

[cali]

40. nope. not at all the same in terms of the repetition

that forms the way developing brains operate.

[Zuni]

11. I am assuming you are some sort of mental body builder?

:shrug:

[antipode]

18. You could say that. I was raised in a mainstream "christian" church until I

figured out it's all nonsense. Belief in supernatural entities after puberty is a sign of mental flaccidity.

[Zuni]

23. boy, you must feel so superior

thanks for proving your greater intelligence to us hillbilly yokels who believe in God and things we can't prove with science.

[antipode]

32. Well, I'm not a contract killer and don't run a meth lab.

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

72. As is...

"Belief in supernatural entities after puberty is a sign of mental flaccidity."

As is minimizing or ridiculing the benign beliefs of others merely for a big dosage of self-validation. Six of one, half a dozen of the others, I suppose.

Edited: spelling

[antipode]

94. Nobody gives a rat's about benign beliefs. We object when they request or obtain the imprimatur

of legality. That's when they go from benign to malignant.

[LanternWaste]

98. You didn't qualify that initially though.

You didn't qualify that initially though.

I was responding to the statement, "Belief in supernatural entities after puberty is a sign of mental flaccidity." And in that statement, you failed to mention anything re: legislation, merely gave a blanket statement impugning any and all of faith... :shrug:

[asteroid2003QQ47]

110. Nice try, but methinks you suppose wrong.

Minimizing or ridiculing the 'benign' (not malignant; relatively harmless because it does not invade nearby tissue or spread) beliefs of others exists only in the twisted scenario you create (for self-validation?) in that in order for one to minimize or ridicule a belief, one would have to be aware of said belief would one not?
Once said belief is out of the bag so to speak, that is, spreading, it is no longer benign but malignant and thus fair game for ridicule!

[asteroid2003QQ47]

146. No comment, LW?

I'm not in this for your White Flag.

[cali]

39. I'm suggesting that science says that

early brain development has a lot to do with the choices we make. I'm pondering a scientific/philosophical question. That's hardly weak minded, but let me suggest that your ignorance may well be a choice.

[dmallind]

78. But define choice

I'm not saying EVERYTHING is deterministic as the brain has significant plasticity, but I am convinced the brains of many believers simply work dofferently from mine. It would be impossible to apply logic and critical thinking the same way I do and conclude that any religion is in any way true or even inductively all that well argued. Therefore, people who believe religions to be true must either pay far less attention to this line of reasoning, or be willing to override it with other brain functions that rely more on emotional desire. Since we ALL know many religious people who are apparently very comfortable with and informed about critical thinking, then it's obviously possible for it to be the latter.

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. Knowing kids from "fundy" households, yeah for some of them it wasn't a choice. Spiritual abuse

does tend to leave particularly vulnerable people thinking they have no alternative, even if they are desperately unhappy in their situation.

[otherlander]

129. Hey now... Not neccesarilly.

I didn't really choose to be an atheist, it's just that, if I'm honest with myself, I have to admit that I really don't think there's a God. Other people, being just as honest with themselves, might find that they believe that there is a God. I don't think that makes either me or them weak-minded.

[Zynx]

5. Some people, though more rarely, come from secular backgrounds and tend toward religion.

My mother is a good example. She never had any exposure to religion whatsoever as a child and decided to become a Catholic on her own accord.

[scheming daemons]

6. At some point in their lives....

People either believe the bullshit their parents/elders have fed them about religion or they don't.


That said.... I think those with inquisitive and criticial minds end up realizing, like they did with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, that the concept of an invisible man in the sky watching over you is a myth too.

[timtom]

136. I notice the concept "invisible man in the sky" being used quite a bit.

That is an anthropomorphism that falls far short of any meaningful model for the ineffable.

The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.

[lonestarnot]

8. Inculcation is pretty powerful.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. We are all under tremendous pressure to conform.

Whether it's to the religious beliefs of the family, the popular dress codes of one's schoolmates, the "social norms" of the society, or the "politically correct" way of thinking and speaking.

Politicians, preachers, teachers, parents, and advertisers, rely on our desire to be part of the group and to "fit in".

To break away from those pressures and simply be oneself is a rather fearful stance for most people.

[Zuni]

14. the pressure on me is to be not Catholic

Very few of my friends understand me in that I am a practicing Catholic who attends Mass regularly, prays the Rosary, prays several times a day etc etc.

I have to listen to people ridiculing my faith and telling me that I am "weak minded" (people on this very thread!).

[antipode]

26. How many times a day is the correct number? Muslims say 5...are they close?

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

37. The Catholics are particularly good at brain washing.

Give them a child until 7......

Child abuse is what it is.

Hellfire and damnation.

[Zuni]

43. I never had much of that when I was a kid

I was baptized in a Catholic Church as a child, but we really weren't all that observant, and my mother isn't Catholic. I didn't really start really doing the Catholic thing until I was much older.

[PassingFair]

56. You don't need to be "all that observant" to have the crap scared out of you...

Fear the Debil!!

[patrice]

57. We WERE told the fate of our souls would be determined by our CHOICES.

It is an absolute FACT that they used to teach that.

Mass every day of the week, except Saturday, and all of the holy days, all of the Sacraments, singing Gregorian Chant for all of the holy days and Catechism 5 days a week. In Catechism we students always tried to trip the nun or priest up with what-if-questions and as we got older the what-if-questions got fancier, by the time we were in high school (during the 1960s) the nun or priest would discuss the moral/ethical hypotheticals to some extent and then end with something like "If that ever happens you'll have to figure it out, but remember that the fate of your soul depends upon what you decide and what you do."

The head priest in my parish, who was the guy in charge of religious education for our Catholic high school, did not have a degree in Theology. His degree, when he was Ordained, was in PHILOSOPHY.

[rvablue]

119. The Jews are particularly good at brainwashing.

Do I believe what I just wrote in my title?
OF COURSE I FUCKING DON'T!

But I thought I'd post it to shove straight up in your mug how fucking offensive your post is.

Yes, that's right, I'm only a Catholic because I was brainwashed.

Does the same stand for Jews, Muslims, Presbyterians, Protestants, Buddhists, and the list can go on and on and on.

And you know what? DON'T FUCKING TELL ME THAT YOU WERE RAISED CATHOLIC AND FUCKED UP AS A KID. First, because I don't give a shit and, secondly, because that argument is complete utter bullshit. Don't you think there are Jewish kids who had bad childhood experiences and Muslim ones and Buddhist ones?

And are there rabbis all over the globe trying to help the poor and desitute. Are there monks camped out in the middle of nowhere all over the earth trying to help those with less. If there are then I've missed the news story. But you will find hundreds of Catholic priests and nuns doing such amazing work on every continent.....

Does the Catholic Church have problems. Yes. So does EVERY religion.

And the reason why I so vehemently defend my religion is because I would do the same for anyone else's as long at they leave others alone and don't attack and smear others.

[PassingFair]

144. The old just because "they all do it" argument.

Do you believe that you will "burn in hell"
if you make the wrong choices?

Children who are told this retain vestiges
of the fear all of their lives.

[Zynx]

120. That's really not true anymore. I'm a young Catholic and never once heard that.

[patrice]

41. I understand, and agree with to some extent, most of the criticisms of the RCC.

Though I am a fallen Catholic myself, I think the RCC is better than some "Christian" sects, but not as good as it

should/could

be. Even though none of us are what we should/could be, recognition of that fact in Confession is good for everyone.

I think there is a nut of truth in Christianity that has become obscured by Money Changers in their Temples. The RCC sold its soul for political power in order to attain a rather crippled idea of what Pro-Life is. There ARE spiritual/psychological consequences for the sin of MURDER that my church supported by helping to put Bush over the line for "victory". They used to tell us that the only way to maybe avoid those very real consequences is to CONFESS and do REPARATIONS for the harm done to several million Iraqis in this case. I don't expect that to happen, so I look to a new universal church now, one without walls.

I still think about the RCC, Christianity, and religion in general and defend its basic honest impulses toward Truth and Justice, but the Bhagavad Gita sustains my theological life now.

Om namah Shivaya!

[Zuni]

48. The hierarchy of the Church

dissapoint me all the time.

But my Catholic faith survives despite whatever Bishop X might say.

Luckily, the clergy I actually see in person---the priests and deacons at my parish---are for the most part absolutely fantastic people.

[NashVegas]

141. Even as a Catholic-Raised Agnostic/Atheist

There are certain traits that are pounded into a personality. Hence the old Jesuit phrase, "give me a child for their first seven years and they'll be mine for life."

In my case, I've rejected just about everything to do with the religion, but there's a "purist" streak I'm still trying to toss out.

Nonetheless, it IS a choice.

[cali]

44. But I think it may have to do with more than the pressure to conform

and that actual physical brain development may have something to do with the holding of certain beliefs.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Nature or nurture? Or, a combination?

I'm thinking nurture. Strong beliefs can be changed by a substitution of new strong beliefs. Sociologically speaking, at any rate. i.e., Slavery was once thought to be moral, even beneficial to the slaves. That strong belief was replaced by a new strong belief (in most societies) that slavery is immoral and far from beneficial.

Or, "Spare the rod and spoil the child" has been replaced by a generally accepted view that beating children is neither moral or effective.

I cling to the notion that we are free moral agents able to choose (not always correctly) our own paths.

The "Ordinary Men" who willingly slaughtered Jews, were inculcated with anti-semitism in their society, but no more so than most Germans, and many Europeans. If you read Browning's book about those men, you will find neither raving anti-semites, or even convinced Nazis. Just ordinary men conforming to the society in which they found themselves.

The same may be said in a positive way, like the working class people of Britain who, against their own economic interests, fought for the abolition of slavery.

[Winterblues]

12. It is a product of indoctrination

It does not come from rational thought. It first came about through fear and need for guidance but since has endured strictly through indoctrination. It exists today strictly for the sake of Power and Control. IMO

[Zuni]

15. you are so edgy!

man, with your controversial opinions you must be considered a real rebel!

[Winterblues]

49. Actually most people do not agree with my views

You made my day....:bounce: :bounce:

[Zuni]

62. sorry. Glad I could be of service though

I hope you have a good day.

:patriot:

[patrice]

50. Brainwashing is basically a Stimulus/Response model, i.e. it runs on Rewards

and Punishers and the most powerful reinforcers there are are ones that are intermittent, which makes the brainwashers particularly hard to identify after a certain point.

Newsweek did an article several years ago about Sunday Schools that run on M & Ms and pizza. Once the basic set of relationships are defined, the reinforcers (which CAN be both pleasure and pain) get more sophisticated and covert.

[el_bryanto]

13. Interesting question

Kind of a thorny problem. I should note though that there are plenty of examples of people being born and raised in a religion and then taking up atheism, agnosticism or another faith as they get older. Which would seem to imply a choice.

Along the same lines are all humans blessed/cursed with the same spiritual potential? Or do some possess a greater connection to the spiritual world than others?

Bryant

[patrice]

16. Brainwashing is a powerful factor, but there would be a few biological configurations that would

fight it, almost no matter what, as long as they are not totally enslaved too early.

Not to derail your discussion, just something to consider later perhaps: but is Racism always a choice?

[no_hypocrisy]

17. It is if it's free from influence of third parties.

When my sister wanted to convert from Judaism to Catholicism in order to induce her boyfriend to propose, our father invoked "the six million" (Holocaust, etc.) as his best argument for her to stay Jewish. Not the virtues and benefits of the religion, but abject guilt and a sense of compensation. She eventually lost interest in the boyfriend and Catholicism.

OTOH, my brother converted to Islam (Sufism) and our father went ballistic. Went past the Six Million Argument. Had a meltdown at my brother's wedding. They've reached an impasse and now have a good natured truce.


These examples shows that there will be battles over hearts and minds of potential sheep for particular herds.

[Lerkfish]

19. wide range of variables, but chief among them is choice and comfort.

if people stay in a church, they choose to because they feel comfortable there. If they leave, they weren't comfortable with either the teachings or the trappings of that particular church.

Even people who are very religious will not go to a church that makes them uncomfortable for any reason.

so, no, I don't think brain patterns play into the choice. For the simple fact that its so easily changeable by making a simple choice.

just IMHO.

[rrneck]

22. Belief is a given in the human experience, what exactly

belief is, that's another matter. It may just be the ability to anticipate future events based on current circumstances and past experience. What are heaven and hell but the ultimate anticipation?

Religious practice is another matter. A devout Catholic would no doubt be a devout Muslim if he or she were born in Saudi Arabia. I've seen Southern Baptists discuss individual churches like they were shopping for dinnerware.

Belief is hardwired in the human consciousness (nature), religion is a cultural phenomena (nurture).

[crim son]

24. Of course it is.

There are any number of factors influencing one's likelihood of choosing to believe the story of God, but ultimately the individual has to say to him/herself: "Okay. This religion tells me that Jesus was born of a Virgin and is the Son of God. His death on the cross cannot be compared to the similar death of thousands and thousands of others. Now, do I believe this?" The "catch" - where traditional religion really has an edge, is that the more ridiculous the belief, the more we are praised for adhering to it. Christians call this "faith." I'm not sure what to call it, but I have no doubt that faith is a choice.

[dysfunctional press]

25. of course it is. people have the choice of whether or not to believe fairy tales.

i was raised uber-lutheran- lutheran school from k-11(i graduated early), the lutheran church we attended was the center of our social life...
BUT- once i had a chance to do my own critical thinking on the matter- the belief system melted away.

[GodlessBiker]

52. Do you equate "melting away" with choosing? Did you say one day, "I choose to have these beliefs"?

And it simply happened. Or did you find yourself believing in something different?

I think when we examine our beliefs, they are not something we choose at all.

[dysfunctional press]

63. "I think when we examine our beliefs, they are not something we choose at all."

that don't make no sense...
there are those that choose not to question the things they are taught- but that's still a choice- and if you don't question the things that you are taught, in order to come to your own conclusions- then you are simply following someone else's belief system, and not your own.

[GodlessBiker]

73. We can examine our beliefs, read things that challenge them, but whether they change is not ...

something we choose.

I am an atheist. I can no more choose to be a theist now or tomorrow, or whenever, then I can fly to the moon. My atheism is presented to me, to my consciousness, as a given. It is a structure of my thought which I do not decide upon.

[dysfunctional press]

79. of course you can make the choice to become a theist- lots of people have.

if vishnu suddenly appeared in your room, and told you that hinduism was the one true faith- what would you choose to do? and no- it's not any type of hallucination- it's really vishnu.

and yes, even if you don't want to admit it- you did decide by conscious choice to be an athiest, so did i.

[Pithlet]

99. Can one choose for vishnu to make that appearance?

I can't choose for evidence to come forth. That's why I can't make the choice to believe. Without evidence, I don't become a believer. No matter how much I may want to believe, it isn't going to happen for me. I seem to lack whatever it is that some people have that makes them prone to belief, combined with the fact that I was raised in a household that didn't practice a religion. I didn't choose that circumstance, either.

[dysfunctional press]

103. what do you think...?

:eyes:

you have made the choice to not believe- others have made the choice TO believe.

but it's obviously still a choice.

[demgurl]

84. I think it is a choice.....

and I contend saying that once we give up one belief we believe in something else is a given for anything. I may believe Bush is the anti-Christ but when I stop believing this (yeah, like that would happen) then I have a different belief, one that is opposite of the first. The same can be said of food. I used to eat tuna but one day I started getting sick at the smell of seafood and I could not eat tuna any more without throwing up. So I guess you could say my belief changed. I liked tuna and then I believed it was not for me. I believed tuna was good and then I thought it was bad.

I may like someone until they tell a racist joke. I thought they were a good person but that belief changed when I found out they were racist.

I guess what I am trying to say is the whole definition of changing a belief is you now believe something different but like my tuna story (which is real) I had no choice but in the racist story I have a choice of who I am. I can hang around with someone who tells awful jokes and rationalize it or I can see them for who they are.

You simply can not replace one belief and be void without a replacement belief. If you believe in God but then you don't then that means you replaced the belief of an existence with the belief that none exists. This does not mean there is no choice.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. It Was For Me, At Least

And at 14 i chose to ignore it. Rejected my Italian Catholic upbringing and said enough.

Haven't missed it since.
GAC

[Pithlet]

28. I don't think it's that simple.

Yes, I do think it's possible for someone to consciously make a decision to examine their faith or lack of faith, but that doesn't mean it will change, even if they wanted it to. I'm an atheist/agnostic. I don't remember a time when I consciously made the choice to be one. I do not believe I could consciously make the choice to believe in God, any more than I could in any other deity or spirit. I simply don't. I can't consciously choose to believe. I imagine people of faith feel similarly. For those that state such things, I think it's rather arrogant to state that they just need to use their reasoning skills, and therefore it's a matter of choice because they don't. It's rather presumptuous to assume they haven't.

[peace13]

29. In my family's case religion ,is a mental illness!

Seriously, my mother and sister are driven deeper into the cauldron the more unstable our world becomes. They are the licker's of Falwell's boots. Unfortunately they are in the company of millions. Our social issues are held hostage by people who are paralyzed by their religion and unable to open their minds.

Not bashing those who believe just commenting on the extent to which religion can debilitate people. Peace, Kim

[ThomWV]

30. Parents teach belief, even if as a fairy tale, and it sticks

If you mature to the point where you question much of anything one of the first things to go is religion. The absurdity of it is unsurpassable and immediately obvious to anyone who challenges it at all.

[cali]

46. Why does it stick? Does biology have anything to do with it?

[scheming daemons]

47. I guess there could be a biological reason why certain people are predisposed to believe fairy tales

Hard to prove otherwise.


I would hope not, though.

[GodlessBiker]

51. Certain people? Most people. There is probably a sociobiological reason.

[PassingFair]

64. "Mass" Hysteria.

And tribes.

[ThomWV]

107. Probably yes, I would guess that taking lessons from parents is a survival mechanism

That does not mean that all lessons have value though.

[cbc5g]

118. Being an authority figure has something to do with it...racism/homophobia sticks too

and like religion can be passed down as well.

[PassingFair]

35. I was brought up in a "religion" and made the conscious choice...

that I didn't believe any of the folk lore
it is based on.

So, yes, it IS a choice.

On edit: Why are you posting this here?

[GodlessBiker]

74. Do me a favor. Choose to believe again. Just for a day. Really believe.

I dare ya. I'll even give you a dollar if you choose to believe just for a day.

Then you can choose not to believe the next day.

[NeedleCast]

36. Lots of Factors, I think

Religion is mostly a product of geography.

If you were born in the US, there's about a 70% chance that you're Christian or at least claim to be, regardless of actual participation.

If you were born in Iran, there's almost a 90% chance that you're Muslim.

If you were born in Inda, a very good chance that you're Hindu

and so on...



As we saw in this past election, education also plays a strong role, as the more education one has, the less inclined one is to be religious or strongly religious.

[immoderate]

42. Certainly not a simple choice.

I think our brains are mapped for "magical thinking." They can find connections and patterns of causality where none exist, or are not supported by logic. None of us is directly connected to reality (whatever that is.) Each carries a model of the world within us that is filtered through our senses, which are, of course, not objective. How we view the world is affected by learning, experience, conditioning, and thought. How those work varies with the individual personality.

I think that religious views are part of personality, which is unique for each of us. And in some sense, religion is no more a choice than our favorite flavor of ice cream.

--IMM

[Schema Thing]

53. I certainly didn't see it as a choice.

But then again the religion I was raised in qualifies as a cult, by most accepted definitions.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

54. No! Mental health and the Stockholm Syndrome are huge factors.

For starters check out the work of Dr. John Spencer-
http://www.caic.org.au/jws/medical/spencer.htm
and consider that children as 'hostages' of religious parents
are made to order victims of the Stockholm Syndrome.

[slackmaster]

55. Not if you are born into and live in a strict Muslim society

The penalty for renouncing the faith is death.

[LWolf]

60. A fascinating question.

I look forward to browsing through the responses.

I say yes, because I think most things are a choice, but with reservations.

Early conditioning has a powerful effect on probable choices.

So while religion is a choice, that choice is always affected by, and often overcome by, early programming.

That's why conservatives have worked so hard to regiment, and standardize, public education. That's why there are so many religious private schools, and such a persistent, organized attempt to make public schools the enemy, or the scapegoat.

I also wonder if personality type doesn't have something to do with whether or not a person overcomes early conditioning to make choices outside those limits. Are the leaders more likely to step forward into outside territory than the followers?

A person like me, who simply needs to be told once to conform to someone else's values, is likely to purposefully throw that back in their face, and do exactly what I was just told not to. I've been that way since childhood, and I've paid some heavy prices for continuous independent rebellion. I've also gained more, and gone further, than I would have otherwise.

Is that, though, a reflection of early programming, too?

[LanternWaste]

65. Interesting question you pose

As science advances, I read more and more about how we are hard-wired into a sort of secular predestination with many of the "choices" we make.

I recently listened to a wonderful dialog between a sociologist and a genetic scientist who both believed that in many instances, serial killers have a distinct and precise difference in their brains than do "normal" people.

Without knowing too much about either sociology or genetics, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me to presume that it could be applied across the board-- not merely to serial killers, but to all sorts of choices we make in our daily lives-- the philosophies we are sympathetic to, our favored routes to get to work, who we may or may not find attractive, even the fleeting thoughts we may have as we witness a beautiful sunset, and yes-- our reactions and either embrasure or denial of religions also.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist family but made a conscious decision soon after high school to rededicate myself through the Presbyterian Church (although I imagine many would simply call that trading one fairy tale for the same one, the only difference being in the preface).

Interesting question you pose-- one that may preoccupy me throughout the day... which is MUCH better than being preoccupied with the piles of work on my desk. :)

[nini]

66. It's a choice

I was raised Catholic and I have the 'culture' as part of who I am. As an adult I do not consider myself a devout Catholic like many in my family, though I identify with it from the traditions I experienced growing up.

I have a wide range of views on religion - identifying with both for believers and non-believers on different issues.


If it is not a 'conscious' choice then I don't believe it is legitimate because the person involved hasn't delved into why they believe what they do.

[H2O Man]

67. It can be

a very good choice.

[demgurl]

68. In a way, my religion chose me.

I was very turned off from the Catholic church because after being taught in a Catholic school for 12 years I was tired of the hypocrisy. In high school I researched Buddhism a bit but I felt it was so strict I would be a hypocrite myself.

Years later I was explaining some of my philosophies on life and the person I was talking to (here, as a matter of fact) told me that my philosophy was the same as a Buddhist monk she had talked to. I started looking into it more and my ties to Buddhism have only grown stronger and stronger.

Buddhism works for me because it tells you to question it and accept what you believe. A lot of it makes sense to me when I put it to the test.

[Lyric]

69. I think it's a mixed bag. A simple belief in a higher power might not be a conscious choice, but

belonging to an organized religion with rituals, rules, dogma, etc? Yes, that is a choice. It STEMS from the belief in a higher power.

However, if you are raised within an organized religion from birth, then it's more tricky. Basically, your parents made that choice FOR you--they decided to make it part of the founding elements of the person you became. Some people choose to reject it as they get older, but many do not. It is THEN that it becomes a "choice" for those who were raised that way; they chose to continue within their church.

I hope that makes sense.

[alfredo]

70. We are animals that have adapted to living in family units and tribes(packs).

Part of that adaptation is the ability to lead and follow. To follow you need to be able to defer to authority. Even the leader has that same "gene."
If no person is above the leader, who can he blame for failed crops or poor hunting expeditions. He has nobody to blame, nobody to credit. Who gave him the power? How can he justify his position? Who can he follow?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. Does a person "choose" to fall in love?

Genuine religious experience is much like that.

It happens to you, and you accept it or reject it. What form your acceptance takes depends on the society you live in. (I believe that all human religions are just approximations of the Ultimate Truth.)

I was raised Lutheran but chose to become Episcopalian. Given different circumstances, I might have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, or Jodo Shinshu Buddhism. I simply felt as if the forms of modern American Lutheranism were not for me and that the U.S. Episcopal Church was a much more appropriate expression of my spirituality.

So my answer would be that religious experience is NOT a choice but the form that a person's religious expression takes IS a choice.

I don't know why some people have religious experiences and others don't. I do know people who were explicitly raised as atheists who felt a strong pull towards religion from childhood, despite their parents' objections, and have remained religious even though their parents are no longer alive.

[dysfunctional press]

81. yes, generally.they choose to fall in love with someone, based on what they see in that person.

and what they know about them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. I don't know--that hasn't been my experience

I have been powerfully attracted to people I KNEW were unavailable and/or unsuitable, and it took quite a bit of effort to shake off the attraction. If I had been making logical choices, I would NOT have decided to fall for them.

[dysfunctional press]

113. the unatainability may also have been part of the attraction...

especially if it's a repetitious behaviour- 'you always want what you can't have', etc...

it may not always be a conscious choice- but attraction is generally based on certain parameters that define what you find attractive in a potential mate or partner.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. Possibly, but what I'm saying is that just because you've never had a religious experience

doesn't mean that they aren't valid.

[dysfunctional press]

130. i don't think i said they weren't...? and i have had religious experiences...

although mostly fueled with various hallucinogenic substances.
and they were definitely "valid" experiences- but that doesn't mean that they're base on any kind of reality.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. DELETE - WRONG THREAD SORRY

SORRY

[gravity]

80. We would all be highly religous if born in the middle ages

Beliefs aren't really choices because they are what people genuinely feel how the world works which is highly influenced by your environment they were raised in. If the only thing you know about the world is what the Catholic church teaches, that is what you will believe.

I don't think it is permanently programmed, but it isn't easy for someone to change their views that are deeply ingrained in their brain.

We have more choices today just because we have more exposure to different beliefs than in other periods of time, but even then, it is our environment which has a huge influence on us. If we didn't have alternative ideas like evolution, there would be a whole lot less atheist in the world.

[prostock69]

82. People leave their "religions" every day. I find it fascinating to find out why

Here are some websites to visit if you are interested in reading about people (ex-ministers, ex-apologists) who have left Christianity and are now adamantly against it:

Infidelismaximus.blogspot
debunkingchristianity.blogspot

There are several books regarding people leaving Christianity as well. Here are a few that I have read:

"Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists"
"Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists"
"Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity"

I believe why so many people stay in the faith is because they are:

1) Severely brainwashed and hardly EVER go outside their Church for socialism so they are sheltered from the criticisms of their religion;
2) Are extremely ignorant about the how the bible and Christianity were formed;
3) Know of the problems with their religion but choose to continue to hold on to their faith because the idea of this being the only life they will ever have is unacceptable to them. The fantasy, that is Jesus Christ Saves, it more appealing so they choose it instead of accepting the truth about their religion. The fear of death is a huge reason why people continue to believe in Jesus; and
4) The good amount of Christians are uneducated people to begin with who are easily manipulated into believing anything they are told. It has been proven that the more educated you are, especially in Science and Biology, the less apt you are to be a religious person. A lot of people do not realize also that 90-95% of the "early Christians" were highly illiterate (could not read or write) and were very uneducated in general. They were already worshiping other gods at the time they converted to Christianity. They never questioned the validity of the claims of the people proselytizing to them about Jesus. They simply said "ok" and jumped on the bandwagon. Hence, today we are reaping the effects of much of the same ignorance.

Another unknown fact is 95% of Americans are illiterate when it comes to Science. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be that The Christian religion has fought against Science tooth and nail ever since Christianity's creation? And in our country there has been an all out assault on Science, thanks in part to the Bush Administration's welcoming of the Christian Right to influence his administration's agenda. We have the Christian right wanting to teach creationism in public schools. Let's dumb down our children even more. We have creationism museums claiming there was enough room on Noah's Ark for dinosaurs. This is completely unacceptable considering The Story of Noah's Ark was a reworked myth taken from other cultures: http://www.truthbeknown.com/noah.htm

The NUMBER ONE REASON I have found why people leave Christianity (this includes me) is because they find out the truth about the bible. From there they research more on how Christianity was first formed. Their journeys are often long and painful. BUT once they are free from the dogma, they are very happy, like me, and are wanting others to find out the truth as well. Atheism/Agnosticism and Science are the number one enemies of the Christian/Islam faiths for this reason.

Below are a list of books regarding the "mind" if you are interested in learning why people get sucked into religious dogma and stay there:

"Breakdown of Will"
"Predictability Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions"
"The Denial of Death"
"Conversations on Consciousness"
"Religion Explained"
"Crowds and Power"
"Mapping the Mind"

[kenny blankenship]

93. Indeed this is one of the quietly scandalous features of the Should we legally suppress gays debate:

It's the religious totalitarians who can change. People leave their religion every day, whether that was fundamentalist-totalitarian or not. Their sexual orientation not so much!

I've personally met many reformed Fundamentalist Christians. I don't know any straight person (to my knowledge) who thinks they could become gay or that a gay person can become straight. I am quite positive that I don't know any gay person who thinks that they or someone like them can become straight --that is, to stop experiencing same-sex desire. There are bisexuals (like me) and they could be forced into only having straight sex, but only at a tremendous cost of pain and suffering to ourselves and those around us. That would be living a lie. Same-sex attraction isn't going to stop for me until death no matter how much straight sex you put in front of me. Far more cruel than compelling bi's to live straight would be to force purely homosexual people to not have sex or loving relationships at all.

Moreover, religious totalitarians don't have to give up any of their beliefs in order to leave other people alone. They can harass people privately all they want, but the essential requirement for religious freedom and other precious individual liberties, and the minimum that they owe our secular liberal democracy is to refrain from trying to use the state to suppress people they don't like or who don't believe what they believe. If they can't live by that they should move to Iran or some other religiously totalitarian shithole country.

The United State of America was founded with mission of creating and preserving LIBERTY and EQUALITY, not with the mission of saving other peoples' souls for Jesus. That was the pretext of Royal Colonies and Conquistadors. We fought a revolution to get away from crap like that.

[cushla_machree]

83. I was born without the religion chip

Went to Sunday School every week, remember at age 7 thinking the garden of eden was stupid. We use to have to make playdoh gardens of eden.

We also watched those stupid jesus cartons. Went through youth group. I even made it through confirmation, but i don't really remember anything. Went in one ear, out the other. I would rather spend my time learning about animals and how things work, not about some magical being up in the sky.

I understand that people like believing in some divine power, but really, I still can't shake the idea that there is something wrong with religious people's brain. Jesus walked on water and acended into heaven after 3 days? I honestly don't understand how smart people can believe such ridiculous things.

Maybe it makes them feel better about dying, thats the only thing i can think of. We want to feel special. Like someone up there actually cares. My grandmother prays to god all the time, and gives Him (actually, HER) credit for all the good things that happen, then ignores the fact that going by her logic, god must be responsible for all the bad things too.

We sit back and chuckle about the ancient greeks and egyptians, about their silly religious beliefs. Yet turn around and believe the same thing written by a bunch of people years after the death of jesus and think its the words of god.

I like jesus, i think he was truly enlightened. But so was Buddha. Mabe there is something out there, but how you can just believe something because you were raised to believe it, is beyond me. I am more inclined to think the space aliens put us here. Explains the Mayan and Aztec cultures and the pyramids quite a bit.

To answer your question, the fact that smart people absolutely believe in the bible and have 'faith' tells me that religion is not a choice, and these people are a victim of their brain hardwiring. Cause no matter what i do, i can't believe, and wouldn't life be happier if i could.

And as Christmas approaches, let us not forget Dec 25th and Mithra:

1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
5. He performed miracles.
6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

[AlCzervik]

85. yes, i choose none.

[reflection]

86. I am absolutely convinced there

is some kind of Creator.

So many of the processes and systems I see on a daily basis defy what I have been taught (as an engineer) about entropy and thermodynamics.

[Muttocracy]

127. where are you seeing violations of laws of thermodynamics? nt

[Scout]

88. of course it is a choice ... once one reaches adulthood

children don't have much say in it.

[cali]

89. I'm suggesting that neural pathways

are forged early in life and that's biological. Now granted, there are lots of other variables, including the forging of opposing neural pathways.

[OwnedByFerrets]

90. When I was old enough and mature enough to see and comprehend

the hypocrisy, I began my accent into atheism.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

91. In my case, the religion I was born into, Judaism is intrinsically entwined

with my ethnicity. Although I don't practice the religion, I still at the same time, traditionally celebrate some of the Holidays as part of my ethnicity.

[McCamy Taylor]

92. Excellent question, Cali! I have had a series of mystical experiences

the last of which occurred while considering the question "Why would God allow the Holocaust to happen?" I was brought up an agnostic, but my own experiences of mystical revelation have made me a Buddhist--even though I resisted becoming a Buddhist, because, like all scientists, I did not want to "fall for a religion."

I had no choice but to accept that what I experienced was the truth. As in William Blake's "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" I did not see an anthropomorphic deity, but rather

Isaiah answer'd. 'I saw no God, nor heard any, in a finite organical perception; but my senses discover'd the infinite in every thing, and as I was then perswaded, & remain confirm'd, that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God, I cared not for consequences but wrote.'

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/blake_ma.html

I recognize the same experiences that I have encountered in the writings of Blake, Rumi, the teachings of St. Francis, Lao Tzu and countless other mystics of a variety of religious traditions. This has lead me to the conclusion that the mystical experience is inevitable. For instance, while we are hard wired to see time as linear, I believe that other perceptions bleed through into our consciousness.

[Nikia]

96. I think that some of it might be biological ( the tendency to be religious or believe in God)

I think that it is interesting, for example, that in my dad's family there were 6 children. His father was an atheist leaning agnostic who would attend church only out of respect for certain important occaisions but would share his non religious views at home and his mother was religious, Baptist by choice as a teenager, and Methodist (her husband's childhood/family religion) as an adult. She also shared her views at home. She had her children baptized, brought them to church every Sunday, and encouraged them to be confirmed (which they all were). As adults, 3 (the 1st, 3rd, and 6th children) are religious. The others are not and lean atheistically, although one of them let his mother have his children baptized. Being raised by the same parents with a common religious experience, I would say that there must be another factor. In that family, it doesn't dependent on intelligence or conformity either, nor does it seem to have to do with their parental preference either.
As far as the particuliar religion, I think that people who tend religious will generally prefer the one they grew up with, either of their family or friends/people who they have much respect for. In more open societies like the US, I think that as adults though, some people are willing to look outside their religion to find one that may conform more closely to their other values.

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. It might well be. There are some interesting cases concerning the "God spot" in the brain and I

myself can tell you that when my bipolar was untreated and leaning a certain way I got really intense/weird religiously.

[ColbertWatcher]

100. Not always, mental illness is hereditary. (Now with link)

http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2008/09/neurobiology_of_a_hallucination.php

[dorkulon]

101. Is speaking English a choice?

I think the young mind is very malleable, and a religious upbringing does indeed change the development of that mind. Some people are able to reject the religion they were brought up with, just as some people are able to learn foreign languages fluently in adulthood. But it isn't easy.

[RedCappedBandit]

105. Probably not a choice, but..

not set in stone like, say, your height for example.

I know I couldn't just choose to believe in fairies other mythical beings floating around watching over the earth.

[Mari333]

106. neural pathways are malleable

thats science now. there is no specific hard wiring that cannot be undone.

[JuniperLea]

108. Never say always

I'm a "recovering Fundy" but my boyfriend insists some of the beliefs are ingrained. He may be right, I'm not sure, but I think that some of the teachings of Jesus are just good sense when it comes to living in a society... but don't expect to see too much of those teachings actually used in "real life."

I do know that out of all 10 of my cousins who were raised in the same church, one is a missionary, one is very active in her church and teaches Sunday school, one is gay, two are drug addicts, and only the first two mentioned here actually cling to their religion.

I have a friend who was in the Catholic Seminary, born the 7th out of 12 children to a very, very Irish Catholic family, and only a couple of his siblings are still active in the church... he left the Seminary and is a devout Ex Catholic and rails against anything religious with every fiber of his being.

I know anecdotal stories don't count for much, except backing my own theories in my own mind.

[mudesi]

109. It's NEVER a choice

Religion is a psychological disorder.

[pipi_k]

111. Yeah, it's an interesting question....

I don't know if I would say it's always a choice.

In my case, I was introduced to religion at the age of ten when my family moved one door away from a Protestant church and we kids were sent there even though our parents had both been brought up Catholic and my father was well on his way to turning Atheist.

I chose to believe.

Then, gradually, I decided NOT to believe. I sort of got interested in the natural sciences and it was hard to reconcile Evolution with Adam and Eve, and since Evolution made more sense to me, I decided that much of what was written in the Bible was, more or less, a quaint collection of stories told by superstitious, ignorant people.

For others, perhaps religion has been hammered into their heads so thoroughly that there's little to no chance of escape from it...in which case it's probably not a choice. They might even need to be deprogrammed, much like someone who's been brainwashed by a cult.


So my answer is that sometimes it is a choice, sometimes it's not.

[NJCher]

112. Rejected Religion at Age 8

I was brought up in a religious family (well, at least my mother was). We were regularly hauled to church and Sunday school. If there had been a parochial school in town, you can believe I'd have been in it.

But I can remember challenging the Sunday school teachers with statements like, "It doesn't make any sense for God to let his son be killed for our 'sins.'" I can also remember asking them who defined sin. I wasn't buying that I was inherently "bad."

I remember walking out of Sunday school, telling them my questions hadn't been answered in any way that made sense.

This had my mother very upset.

I went on to study the world's religions. I set up a card table in my bedroom and on top of it were dozens of books on the world's religions--Buddhism, Hinduism, and so on. This study went on for years. My faves were the Cathars.

I finally decided that religions were something with a genuine impetus but that were refined by the power structure to keep people in line. But that didn't mean there wasn't a god or a spiritual world.

By the time I was in high school, I was writing papers for psychology class like "Human Manifestations in Religion." These papers came to the attention of the church and they actually said they were going to excommunicate me!! Yeah! My mother was really in a panic then!

I've since gone on to define my own view of spiritual matters. After a lifetime of inquiry, I think I'm on to the nature of existence and what it means.



Cher

[ColbertWatcher]

128. You know, if you wanted, you could start your own "church"! Just like Warren! n/t

[LeftyMom]

114. For those who are smart enough to reject obvious bullshit.

Unfortunately people tend to tell nonsense stories to kids and MR adults who don't always have the ability to tell when they're being lied to, but certainly normal adults have a choice in the matter.

[RiverStone]

116. After going to Sunday school for many years, I learned not to believe in imaginary things...

Ah, I chose to accept it as fallacy and fable. We are not robots.

Of course, as a kid - I was force fed that swill for a while, and had to wear itchy wool suits to boot!

[cbc5g]

117. There is no choice, it's all action/reaction from the day you were born

you're a product of your environment and genetics.

[gollygee]

121. Probably somewhat yes, somewhat no

It is partially a choice I think, but it isn't a complete choice because if you're raised from day one by people with those beliefs, and have that impressed upon you over and over, and are sent to classes (such as Sunday School) to reinforce it, for years on end, there's enough work from the outside and from a young enough age to make it not completely a choice. But certainly people stop believing in the religions of their families, so obviously a choice exists. The question is more about how free that choice is, or whether it's sometimes very difficult to see something other than what you were raised with, or something like that.

So I guess I think it's more complicated than a simple "yes/no" thing.

Edited to add that I see you said "always". I think for some people it probably isn't a choice. When they become adults, it's such a part of their self-identity that they aren't really able to move away from that. And then of course a lot of people are very happy and wouldn't want to move away from the religious teachings of their youth anyway, but that's more of a choice I suppose. Faith is a choice and is an important part of religion, too.

[stillcool]

123. until you reach the age of reason...

if that ever happens. Then you choose what it is you believe. People have been practicing various religions since there have been people. Just because religious organizations become power structures unto themselves, and use their shit to buy other people's souls, doesn't mean that faith or belief regardless of what it is, is 'bad'. It is a tool to use, it's just how it's used. This country has no soul, no spirituality..it is dead inside.

[ismnotwasm]

125. Kinda

We have the capacity for faith for whatever adaptive reasons. Faith, by nature is continually challenged, not by science so much, but by life.

Now me, I wasn't brought up religious, but attended a fundamentalist church with neighbors now and again. I remember having more than one "spiritual experience" The neighbors went around saying "She is definitely saved"

Meh. Grown, that didn't imprint. I literally don't have the kind of mind that takes to *be* religious. I'm agnostic by nature and have no belief whatsoever in creator deities. I also acknowledge science doesn't hold all answers--yet.

Some atheists have become religious. Some Religious people lost their faith. The need or desire for faith in Deities will always fascinate me. I don't hold that religion is the 'cause' of the world's troubles, because it's the system human beings came up with. We don't have a social/evolutionary/historical alternative. I'm sure we could have murdered or loved each other with a different system, but we'll never know.

Faith is comforting. It's also quite tribal to belong to a group like yourself. It's safety from the always present other. It has also challenged thought about who and what we are or can be, with both extremely positive and horribly negative outcomes. Faith in God(s) for whatever reasons is evidently very human. So is doubt and questioning

The brain is very plastic, probably more than we understand currently.

[Patsy Stone]

126. As a child, probably not a choice.

Most kids don't really get to tell their parents when they will and won't be attending religious services.

But, as an adult, yes, I think it is. It's a choice to believe in a higher order, regardless of the particular dogma in which one was indoctrinated or the one one chooses to follow. For whatever reason, some people need to feel there is a purpose and a plan. That their house burned down for a reason they can not possibly know is easier for them to take than "I live in a fire zone and what did I expect?" This allows them a coping mechanism (and, in some cases, a lack of responsibility) and affords the believer the ability to shake it off, or ask a divine something with infinite power to give them strength to deal with it. That implied and overt belief in personal weakness is one of my bigger issues with organized religion.

Sometimes I hate them for the irresponsible laziness which enables them to take the easy way out ("Hey! It's God's will."), and sometimes I envy them for their simplicity of purpose.

I find that most religions are based on the Golden Rule, anyway. As simple as that dictum is, it seems lots of people need a lifetime full of instruction on how to go about following it.

My long winded two cents.

[Lorien]

131. Yes. Anyone can choose to believe or not to believe

My mother was raised Mennonite. Then she became an atheist, and now she's a born again Southern Baptist. My father was raised Methodist, then became an atheist, then a Buddhist, not he's an atheist again. A good friend was raised Hindu and is now a non believer. Another was raised agnostic and now has joined the Episcopal church. Still another was raised Baptist and is now a Pagan. I honestly don't know many people that stuck with the faith they were raised in.

[kenny blankenship]

132. If it's not a choice for you then you shouldn't serve on juries or vote

because you are not in control of your mind and choices. That makes you legally incompetent.

Of course it's your choice.

[Fumesucker]

133. Empirical evidence would suggest that religion is primarily a choice..

If religion were not a choice then all cultures should have approximately the same percentages of religious and non religious people in them, this is clearly not the case.

There are cultures which are over 90% religious, I'm thinking specifically some Muslim societies, while Denmark is only around 15% religious and the other Scandinavian countries are also strongly irreligious.

These facts lead me to conclude that religiosity is primarily a cultural artifact. That being said I think there are some people who are simply compelled by their very nature to religion and I also think there are some people who are compelled to reject religion altogether, I fall into the latter category FWIW.

[TWiley]

135. A choice ONLY when one has the option to freely choose.

Children are banished in some families, and adults loose employment if they "choose" the wrong thing. "Choices" made under duress have little moral or legal strength.

[Fumesucker]

138. That's true, however it generally works much more strongly in one direction than the other..

At least that is my own experience, it appears that an irreligious person in a religious household/culture is more likely to experience extreme pressure than in the opposite case.

[TWiley]

145. Agreed .... why does the Easter Bunny not enjoy similar emphasis?

[TWiley]

134. Lack of regional religious diversity proves it is NO choice.

Individuals are forced to assimilate, or be outcast. You will notice that Religion is ALWAYS regional. This observation should prove it. Q E D

[mmonk]

137. Yes though forces in this country are trying to take it away.

[Jim__]

140. It's best to believe that it is a choice.

The question is so complex, that he answer won't be known unless and until we answer the larger question about human choice versus determinism. However, to assume that we have no choice is to eliminate personal responsibility for what we do and to allow people just do whatever is easier.

[moggie]

142. This word "choice" is problematic

We tend to think of "choice" as an immediate thing: "what should we eat tonight: Italian or Mexican?" Viewed in that way, religion isn't a choice for most people. I certainly couldn't decide right now that I'll be religious from now on. But if you look at choice as a more gradual process, I think the answer is different. For example, if you're religious but are having doubts, you could choose to think things through no matter where this led, or you could choose to push your doubts to the back of your mind and throw yourself into church activities. Those two choices are quite likely to have different outcomes. For college, you could choose to study science, or English. A large majority of scientists are non-religious, regardless of what they believed before their degrees, whereas studying English probably has little effect on existing beliefs. If you're a recovering alcoholic, you could choose to join a recovery group which emphasises God's help, or a secular one, and a lot of people who make the former choice come out of it more religious. And so on. The choices we make mould us, though it's often a gradual process.

[mondo joe]

147. Ultimately, yes, as is your expression of religion.

[Odin2005]

148. It depends on the person's personality and intellectual abillity.

Some people simply do not have the personality nor the intelligence to conceive of the thought that what they were taught was was wrong. The only way you can convince such people is to use religious language yourself with them, trying to use logical reasoning with them is fruitless.