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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:07 PM
Original message
some thoughts
Edited on Wed Dec-24-08 03:17 PM by Two Americas
I had such an awakening over the last few days. Maybe my experience will be of value to others.

I had always flattered myself that I was "good" on this issue of gay rights. In the 80's I was working in San Francisco for a corporation in an industry that had always been exclusively a white male enclave, macho and right wing, and I put together a program to bring women, people of color and gay people into the company. I saw the resistance, I saw the bigotry, I heard the whispers - "maybe he is gay?" I fought back, I held fast. I was "good," and I patted myself on the back. "Some of my best friends are..."

But I always saw the cause as "their cause," over there, not my cause - oh, I supported it, whatever that means. I now think that saying "I support gay rights" is an easy way out that costs nothing. But that is what I was doing.

Over the last few days when I saw the barrage of hatred here - let's call it for what it is and not play games anymore - when I saw all of the verbal tricks, the lies and the deceptions, the aggressive and relentless campaign to isolate and dismiss people, I was mortified.

Then I saw the thread with the photos, and my heart broke. I thought, wait a minute. These are my fellow human beings, these are people I have come to know and cherish here, and some with whom I have disagreed and argued bitterly - all part of our shared human experience. Individuals, people, human beings, allies - my brothers and sisters. I won't mention names, but there are some people on that thread that I have respected and admired over the years here. I thought, she is being placed into this category, to be despised and mistreated - not a human being anymore, but rather defined as "a gay" as though that trumped everything, as though that diminished everything she is and has done and has to say? No. That can't happen. I can't go along with that.

I had always thought the issue was this - do you or do you not support gay rights? I think that is the wrong question now. That implies that "they" - some group, different and other than "us" - have some "agenda" that is separate and different, and that we either say we favor that or we say that we don't. Since I say that I do support the cause, therefore I am "good" on this issue, and there is nothing more to think about or say.

Instead, I asked myself this - do I or do I not oppose the agenda of the religious right? And what is that agenda? It is to portray some group of people as separate and different, with an agenda they are trying to impose on us, all done in order to pander to people's fears and prejudices, to spread hatred and intolerance for the sake of enriching themselves and grabbing for power and influence.

There isn't a "gay agenda" we need to support, but there most definitely is an agenda of hatred and bigotry coming from the religious right that we need to oppose - we must oppose. There is not some group of "them" that we need to give bland and tenuous and conditional support to, but rather we are talking about human beings, people, outcast and judged, persecuted and terrorized - all in the service of an evil and hateful agenda that threatens all of us.

There is an ongoing effort to divide people into groups, and to then isolate and marginalize them. We have "the poor" over there, and "the homeless" over here, and "the gays" are over there in their corner, Union workers have their little niche, immigrants another, each group with "their agenda." So many causes, so little time. What is a good little "liberal" to do? Sigh. "Don't get me wrong, I support you, BUT..."

These ideas should have no place in our thinking, as it is the foundation of the right wing hate campaign. Once people are separated, identified, labeled, isolated, they are then fair game for attacks and abuse.

But we are all at risk of falling into poverty, of becoming homeless. We are all in danger of falling ill, and being unable to find care and healing. We are all fighting for justice and fair treatment in the workplace. We are all eating the contaminated food, adulterated for the sake of satisfying the greed of the few, and distributed to the public while our officials look the other way, we are all being judged by the bigots who have perverted and corrupted the simple message of love and compassion preached by a humble, poor and despised man.

"Whatever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

So long as any among us are persecuted, we are all persecuted.

We are all poor.

We are all homeless.

We are all hungry.

We are all persecuted and abused.

We are all marginalized and dismissed.

We are all sick, and lame and crippled.

We are all elderly, alone and forgotten.

We are all fighting for rights in the workplace.

We are all fighting for justice and equality for all.

We are all suffering from environmental degradation.

The only position that we can now take - the only position that is intellectually honest, morally unambiguous, and politically powerful is this:

We are all gay.

That is now we win over people from the other side, that is how we "reach out," that is how we build solidarity and consensus, and that is how we move the country forward. Not by embracing, "tolerating," accepting or apologizing for a perversion and corruption of the message of love and compassion, and not by pandering to those corrupted and selfish leaders of the religious right who use religion to attain wealth and power and influence, and who gain support by fanning the fames of prejudice and fear and spread hatred and bigotry.
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. An R&K for an excellent post!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. We are one
this is the point.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. that's it, yes
Thanks, ayeshahaqqiqa.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Some thoughts, I'd say
Edited on Wed Dec-24-08 04:12 PM by maryf
Some mighty big thoughts with some really big heart. As long as one human being is being marginalized we must all marginalize ourselves thus ever widening the circle of inclusion and destroying the margins. Thus as you say, we are all gay, and we are all homeless, and we are all disenfranchised, and we are all human beings. There is no room for hatred, there is no room for separation, there is only room for love, and love is love is love regardless...
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well said..
as always. :thumbsup:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. We are all humans
I, too, have found a reason to throw down for this fight. I help people, but before, I did it as an outsider. I'm of the lower class, and to associate with us is to risk being "contaminated."

Ironically, I experienced the opposite- the LBGT community embraced ME. That's big of them, considering what the straights and the militant closets are doing to them.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "contaminated"
You are alluding to something important here.

Think about that word - homophobia - fear. The fear is what fuels hatred, and the hatred leads to persecution and abuse, to violence and murder, and whether the fear is - as the religious right claims - a fear of interfering with God's plan, or as we are now hearing here fear of interfering with some grand "progressive" agenda, it is still the same argument. There is no such thing as a progressive agenda that would require us to throw some to the wolves.

The religious bright is driven by fear-mongers. We are not reaching out to people, we are not winning people over, when we pander to the fear mongers. We are reinforcing people's fears, legitimatizing them. We are saying, in the name of "inclusiveness," that the fears are real and solid and reasonable, that fear deserves a seat at the table, must be accepted.

Our fears - of dividing the party, of alienating the middle, of losing the war for the sake of a battle - are no more reasonable than the fears being stirred up in people by the leaders of the religious right. They are not "better" because we put "liberal" or "progressive" rationalizations and justifications around our fears.

The divisiveness here, and in the party and among the general public, is being driven by fear. People fear "contamination" - fear being weakened or diminished - by being too closely associated with certain people or certain causes. We think, and are bombarded with the idea from all quarters, that if we associate with "winners" we are more likely to be "winners." We fear "going too far" or "being too radical." We fear being socially ostracized if we speak out too passionately. We think the "reasonable" and "moderate" center is the safe place to hide, and worry about what people think of us, how they will react. We fail to take any stands.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Propaganda is a purposeful contamination of public opinion, isn't it?
Edited on Thu Dec-25-08 01:08 PM by sfexpat2000
And it's doubtful that anyone has been more thoroughly propagandized than the American public. It's to the point where we have to decode the "news" put out by the mass media in order to determine the most basic facts of national events.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. yes, good point
That is why it is so important that we keep discussing issues such as the Warren selection. Yet there are people here who want us to fear that and stop doing it - we are making ourselves look bad, we are discouraging people, we are attacking Obama, we are dividing Democrats, we are giving the Republicans ammunition, we are alienating "the middle," we are being impractical, we are hurting the cause and on an on. The latest ones are the charges that we are "returning hatred with hatred" - which "won't work" - and are "consumed by rage" - which will destroy us.

Why is there so much fear of a free and open discussion? Yet people keep starting threads about Warren saying that we should stop talking about Warren. That suggests that what they really want is for some people to stop expressing certain opinions, does it not?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Slavery is freedom.
:)

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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R.
I always love reading your posts Two Americas, you really have become one of the most articulate voices on DU and I appreciate the support you have given to those who have voiced dissent.

You are absolutely right, we are all one people. If we stand in support of our gay brothers and sisters then we should not be afraid to identify with our gay brothers and sisters. If we don't think they should be ashamed of who they are, then we should not be ashamed to associate ourselves with their struggle.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. thank you
Edited on Thu Dec-25-08 12:35 PM by Two Americas
Thank you MN, for your kind words and support.

I think the flap over the Warren issue has been very valuable and instructive. I am not sure why some here are so vehemently resistant to the discussion. They claim that we are making too much of it, that they want it to go away - yet they start threads about Warren to say they are tired of hearing about the issue and do not want to discuss it. (!)

Strangely enough, I had an opportunity to go into a crowd of about 300 Warren supporters last night. I said the same things there that I have said here. How is it that those people were less resistant, less hostile to what I have to say than many here are - people who claim to be allies, who say "don't get me wrong I support your cause, but...?" If Warren's followers can be reached directly with some success - by one lone hippy pinko librul outsider on their turf - then why would we pander to Warren? If those people listened to me soberly and considerately, then what is this "middle" that we fear a backlash from? Why would we compromise, why would we be silent?

It is fear. The Warren supporters are fearful - fearful of being "contaminated" as another poster said, fearful of being associated with something that interferes with "God's plan." But that can be overcome. The belief there is that devotion to the simple message of love and brotherhood inherent in Christianity is the solution to the problems the country faces. That was the message in the sermon I heard last night - humility, compassion, charity, brotherhood. The fear - expressed by people to me after the service - is that it is "them" - "the gays" and the "libruls" and "the feminists" and others - who are trying to block that. But those fears are based on clever lies they have been told by deceitful and manipulative leaders from the religious right. The lies are overcome by telling the truth, not by compromising with them.

Those here defending the selection of Warren are fearful, as well - fearful of being "contaminated" by something "too radical" or "impractical," fearful of right wing backlash, fearful of being associated with something that interferes with "Obama's plan" or some grand "progressive" cause. That, strangely enough, is not so easy to overcome.

Rick Warren, and the other leaders of the religious right, want us to believe that they represent millions. Too many here buy that lie. I am not discounting the danger - mobs whipped up by fear can be dangerous and there is a threat there, a very real threat. But Warren is manipulating and deceiving people, playing on their fears and prejudices, for the purpose of attaining wealth and power and influence for himself. Most people are decent. They are susceptible to being misled.

Most of the people I met last night are working class people, struggling to pay the bills, afraid of losing their jobs, worried and fearful and distracted and confused. They know that something has gone terribly wrong, and they are not sure what or how. They are not hearing our view of this. They never hear a left wing point of view. Then along comes some "religious" leader telling them that the problems in the country are all because we have fallen away from God, and are descending into a pit of evil. Then it is an easy matter to come up with scapegoats - it is those people over there. People know they are at risk, know they are in danger, know that they are under assault. If the scapegoats can be portrayed as the threat, as the attackers, then people don't think they are being hateful when they express bigotry, don't think they are attacking anyone, they think they are acting in self defense. They have been duped. This is how demagoguery works, and the leaders of the religious right are demagogues.

The antidote to that is not to "respect people's beliefs." This is not about beliefs. We should not "accept" that "millions believe this" so "we need to face that reality." Millions have been deceived. We should not respect deception.

Why are so many here willing to grant legitimacy to the leaders of the religious right? Is not pandering to Warren, legitimatizing and validating his leadership, while fearing his followers the exact opposite of the approach we should be taking? How is hiding away, suppressing and attacking our strongest voices going to win anyone over? How can being silent, being clever and practical, advance some "progressive" cause? How can we move forward, when that requires throwing some of us to the wolves?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Excellent post! K & R nt
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. Super post
K & R
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
Once people are separated, identified, labeled, isolated, they are then fair game for attacks and abuse.


Only with our permission. It should never be given.

Excellent OP - I knew when I saw your username that it would be worth reading, but I still underestimated you - this moved me to tears <3
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. A must read.
:wow:

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Mighty kick as a gift to those who missed it
Your response regarding fear points out so well the source of all this devisive evil, No fear, no fear, no hate, only love and the courage to do whats right, stand together all.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. All I want for Christmas is for your OP to make it to the front page of DU. k&r
Thank you for being so caring and articulate.

sw
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. thank you, scarletwoman
Merry Christmas to you. I hope you have a warm fire going there. I will be thinking about you. You have been an inspiration for me and a comfort with your support and passionate advocacy for the left out and the suffering.

:hug:
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Solidarity




K&R
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. "We are all ____", THAT is the point, thank you!
When we even think in terms of the labels they frame issue arguments around, we lose the point, which is exactly as you said and that's why they manufacture these issues - to cause us to think in those terms. "There but for the grace of God go I", we are all as the least of us (or the persecuted) because we all could be there in that place anytime. Change happens and the "wheel of fortune" spins. That is what frustrates me the most, that some people can't (or won't) see that. The ones who flatter themselves that they're self-made islands, and are immune because of their money, or position, or favor - I hope they're paying attention now, to the "fall of the mighty". It happens, it can happen anytime, it always has been that way. And what the toxic people of this world will do to their "enemies" they would do to their friends just the same. The only way I know of to deal with such closed minds is to dismiss them back. It seems to be all that gets through to them (a little).

No one is immune from the ills perpetrated on people. We all could be there in the same place, and might be someday. That's self-preservation thinking there in the OP, really. Ironic, isn't it?

Brutality (for whatever reason including money) isn't cool, it's stupid. It's devouring ourself.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. yes
The excuses for isolating and persecuting people evolve and come in many forms, but the dynamic, and the practical political effect are always the same - divide and conquer.

When we see ourselves as a grab bag of different groups, with different causes, different agendas, all competing for attention and possibly in opposition to one another, we have embraced the premises of the right wing political program.

It is false to think that "the gays" have an "agenda" to "get what they want" and are now "angry and hateful" and so are "hurting the cause." That is such a convoluted and improbable logical construction, that I can't believe anyone here takes it seriously. Someone, somewhere worked very hard at putting that clever line of reasoning together and spreading it around.

Opposing the hateful right wing program, fighting for justice and equality, takes a little more than merely saying that we "support" one of the two choices on each separate and isolated "issue," while allowing the right wingers to define the issues and the choices available to us. You can't accept the right wing premises and then overcome them by simply "choosing" the "good" position of the two offered to us.

What is the difference between these two statements -

"The gays are interfering with God's plan by promoting their agenda, and hurting the country" and "the gays are interfering with Obama's plan by promoting their agenda and are hurting the party."

They are the same argument, and have the same practical political effect. The only difference is that the "progressive" version gives people cover and plausible deniability, and allows them to avoid being held accountable or challenged on their views.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. ...
:kick:
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
:grouphug:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R !
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. Actually
What we all are is this: Humans
As Humans we are frail creatures. We all have our problems. None of us is perfect

What we all need to do is admit to ourselves first, and then to others, is that we make mistakes.
Then, we must work to not make those same mistakes again.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

People have called me out on my moniker here, and what I've always said in response is this: i am not free if you are not free. That my freedom is your freedom. We all need to be free if i am to be free.
I must be free and if i begin to restrict others freedoms then i am restricting mine.

Jesus said it something like this: What you do unto others, you also do unto yourself.


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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Actually...
Not to take away from your point!! Jesus said "do unto others as you would have other do unto you", but, more like your point perhaps is "what you do unto the least of my brethern, you do unto me...", Also to go with I believe is your idea, "you reap what you sow", and "go and sin no more"...

Peace be with you, Mary
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
Excellent post

:thumbsup:
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Excellent thinking Two Americas
Thank you !!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. It really is that simple.
It's about the fight against wrong that will yield the victory of what is right.

Standing against driving wedges is a good start.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
30. Please Two Americas
I don't see a journal icon for you; I sincerely hope you are filing all your writings someplace! They are too brilliant to lose.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. thinking about that...
I appreciate the compliments, Mary. Thanks.

I am thinking about the importance of the message versus the importance of the messenger. The most successful bloggers and journalists spend a lot of time and effort building monuments to their own egos, and the more comforting and reassuring their message, the more K and R's and the more adulation. Hope you don't mind if I go off on a tangent here.

Do you know the story of Angelina Grimke?

I think we are always kissing ass to the "successful" - the "winners," the important people. We think that we need to win them over, and we think that we need to be successful or powerful in order to be heard. If we pay attention to how we see people, I think we will find that we all unconsciously treat the successful with a certain deference and respect, and are ever alert to people's status. We can't reconcile our need to admire and respect the successful with our politics, and maybe we should stop trying to do that.

I also think that we see the job as though we were salespeople - trying to market and popularize ideas - as opposed to truly reaching them - and we use the corporate sales and marketing and hierarchical model for doing that. The goals of those promoting reactionary political ideas is to get us to stop being leftists - or to be defeated and demoralized and invalidated - and to stop talking about left wing ideas. But that is under our control. We shouldn't let them take control, and when we are salespeople and personalities, we are taking the weaker position. Let them sell us on the wisdom of including Warren, for example, rather than taking a defensive position and assuming that unless we can win all over, we must therefore be wrong. We are free to stand firm, and speak the truth as we see it - popular or not, successful or not, admired or not.

If we take on the burden of selling people, and then see the winners - 10% of the population let us not forget - as being very important, as being the ones we need to sell, we always lose. When we change the message in order to be successful salespeople, or we seek to promote ourselves so that people will see us as successful and be more likely to "buy" our "product" from us, we cripple our effectiveness.

We are the "winners" right here, if you ask me. We should stop thinking of ourselves as nobodies, stop thinking that we have to kiss ass and convince anyone of anything. There are many people here - strong and courageous voices - who are the ones we should listen to, respect, see as leaders, who are not seeking any accolades or rewards. They are the "winners" in my world. What? They aren't wealthy? They don't have positions of power and status? They aren't popular? The aren't famous? What is it we think we don't have? They haven't sold my idiotic brother in law on their ideas? What is it that makes us think we are "losers," that we carry some enormous burden that is impossible to overcome?

Why do we kiss up to the successful - as measured by material success and status and credentials and dominance and popularity - while giving each other tentative and lukewarm support, and then spend so much time wringing our hands and questioning ourselves and making it all up as an impossible task against insurmountable odds?

We are slaves - slaves to weak thinking and false assumptions, and that expresses itself as a weak and groveling posture in life.

What the reactionaries are saying is that we are "losers" and therefore not to be listened to, and that there are only two ways to not be a "loser" - convert them to our ideas by selling them (ha good luck with that one suckers) or else embrace modern gentrified liberalism - be a "winner," materially successful and praised and rewarded and admired, be practical and realistic, and then do our political stuff on the weekend and be satisfied with feeling that we are good and superior persons doing good things and taking baby steps and all of the rest of that crap.

We should break those mental chains, resist the urge to become stars or somebodies, and resist the temptation to listen to people depending upon whether or not we see them as stars - as being somebodies, as having status or importance.

I mentioned Angelina Grimke because she never sought to build a career or bring fame to herself n or to be personally successful.

Angelina Grimke, along with her sister Sarah, were the first women in the United States to publicly argue for the abolition of slavery. Cultured and well educated, Angelina had gone north from South Carolina with her sister with firsthand knowledge of the condition of the slaves. In 1836 Angelina wrote a lengthy address urging all women to actively work to free blacks. The sisters' lectures elicited violent criticism because it was considered altogether improper for women to speak out on political issues. This made them acutely aware of their own oppression as women, which they soon began to address along with abolitionism. A severe split developed in the abolition movement, with some antislavery people arguing that it was the "Negro's hour and women would have to wait." The Grimkes refused to accept this idea, insisting on the importance of equality for both women and blacks. Angelina's sister became a major theoretician of the women's rights movement, challenging all the conventional beliefs about a woman's place. As to men, she demanded: "All I ask of our brethren is that they will take their feet from off our necks."

http://www.english.ilstu.edu/351/hypertext98/hankins/african/AGrimke.html


Angelina Grimke Weld, abolitionist, and pioneer lecturer and author for woman’s rights, was the sister of Sarah Moore Grimke. Leaving Charleston, she became a Philadelphia abolitionist, joined the Philadelphia Female Anti-Slavery Society, and wrote an abolitionist pamphlet An Appeal to the Christian Women of the South (1836), which caused a stir. Taking up woman’s rights as well, Angelina wrote a series of letters on the subject in the abolitionist Liberator. Sarah and Angelina’s pioneering lectures and writing on abolition and woman’s rights inspired Lucy Stone, Lucretia Mott, and others to take up both causes.

From a prominent South Carolina family, she was one of 14 children of John Grimke. He fathered both white and African-American children, which made his daughters sensitive to the injustices of slavery. Angelina left Charleston, joined her sister in Philadelphia and followed her into the Quaker faith. Angelina held abolition meetings for women in New York city and, accompanied by her sister, lectured to “mixed” (men and women) audiences, shocking behavior in its day. Their lectures created a sensation that landed the sisters at the center of the woman’s rights debate, provoking a rebuke from ministers against their “unwomanly behavior.” In 1838, Angelina married abolitionist Theodore Weld “out of meeting” and both sisters were expelled from the Quaker faith. Two days later, Angelina spoke passionately to a Philadelphia antislavery convention while a mob, who later burned the building, raged outside. The Welds retired from the antislavery circuit and settled first in New Jersey, then Massachusetts. Sarah made her home with them for the remainder of her life.

http://www.womenspeecharchive.org/women/profile/index.cfm?ProfileID=102


Here are some excerpts from her speeches. I hope IO am not reaching too far here with this, But can you see how being free from any desire of self-promotion, she is also free to say things she could not otherwise say, and how relevant those things are to the political situation today?

Slavery dwells in our hearts -

Men, brethren and fathers - mothers, daughters and sisters, what came ye out for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? Is it curiosity merely, or a deep sympathy with the perishing slave, that has brought this large audience together? Those voices without ought to awaken and call out our warmest sympathies. Deluded beings! "they know not what they do." They know not that they are undermining their own rights and their own happiness, temporal and eternal. Do you ask, "what has the North to do with slavery?" Hear it -- hear it. Those voices without tell us that the spirit of slavery is here, and has been roused to wrath by our abolition speeches and conventions: for surely liberty would not foam and tear herself with rage, because her friends are multiplied daily, and meetings are held in quick succession to set forth her virtues and extend her peaceful kingdom. This opposition shows that slavery has done its deadliest work in the hearts of our citizens. Do you ask, then, "what has the North to do?" I answer, cast out first the spirit of slavery from your own hearts, and then lend your aid to convert the South. Each one present has a work to do, be his or her situation what it may, however limited their means, or insignificant their supposed influence. The great men of this country will not do this work; the church will never do it. A desire to please the world, to keep the favor of all parties and of all conditions, makes them dumb on this and every other unpopular subject. They have become worldly-wise, and therefore God, in his wisdom, employs them not to carry on his plans of reformation and salvation. He hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and the weak to overcome the mighty.


"A desire to please the world, to keep the favor of all parties and of all conditions, makes them dumb on this and every other unpopular subject."

Many persons go to the South for a season, and are hospitably entertained in the parlor and at the table of the slave-holder. They never enter the huts of the slaves; they know nothing of the dark side of the picture, and they return home with praises on their lips of the generous character of those with whom they had tarried. Or if they have witnessed the cruelties of slavery, by remaining silent spectators they have naturally become callous - an insensibility has ensued which prepares them to apologize even for barbarity. Nothing but the corrupting influence of slavery on the hearts of the Northern people can induce them to apologize for it; and much will have been done for the destruction of Southern slavery when we have so reformed the North that no one here will be willing to risk his reputation by advocating or even excusing the holding of men as property. The South know it, and acknowledge that as fast as our principles prevail, the hold of the master must be relaxed.


There is nothing to be feared from those who would stop our mouths, but they themselves should fear and tremble. The current is even now setting fast against them. If the arm of the North had not caused the Bastile of slavery to totter to its foundation, you would not hear those cries. A few years ago, and the South felt secure, and with a contemptuous sneer asked, "Who are the abolitionists? The abolitionists are nothing?" - Ay, in one sense they were nothing, and they are nothing still. But in this we rejoice, that "God has chosen things that are not to bring to nought things that are."

We often hear the question asked , What shall we do?" Here is an opportunity for doing something now. Every man and every woman present may do something by showing that we fear not a mob, and, in the midst of threatenings and revilings, by opening our mouths for the dumb and pleading the cause of those who are ready to perish.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2939t.html


Isn't that interesting? She is tackling the same issues, facing the same stubborn resistance, that we are today.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks Two Americas
Fantastic stuff here, and it should be saved!!!But we still have most of AGW's writings and speeches, no? Whats going to happen to yours? I'm not saying go for the NYT best seller list, I'm saying that so many things I've read of yours I remember and have no access to. Thats what I mean, to not post them, save them, file them is a huge waste, and not only that but they would provide you with good references, you might learn from things you wrote a long time ago, I know I do myself. I say the sin is not in personal glorification here, its in not getting the word out to the masses...to those many, many, many not on the internet...You are strong enough, I believe, to keep your Integrity intact, and if your head starts to get any bigger than it already is ;) you have plenty of us to put you in a head vice and shrink it back. I stand in my opinion here, at least a file in your computer, or get some discs, those you could pass around...
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I see your point
Edited on Fri Dec-26-08 06:22 PM by Two Americas
We have a member who is saving, collating, and even printing and distributing much of what we write here. I have given permission for him to use anything I write. Perhaps we need to pitch in and expand that project?

You gonna put that "W" behind her name? I always thought a "G" should go behind her husband's name lol. Haven't we had about enough of the "W's" lately?

Not everything she wrote or said survived, no. Everything that survived has survived.

Both her sister and her husband were more famous, but I believe she had the greater impact by far.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Glad to hear
Of things being saved in some way, I hope your name is put to the stuff, not as a property/possession thing, but as a reference point. I'll just refer to her as AG, drop that W!!
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. And another thing...:)
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 11:19 AM by maryf
"We often hear the question asked , "What shall we do?" Here is an opportunity for doing something now. Every man and every woman present may do something by showing that we fear not a mob, and, in the midst of threatenings and revilings, by opening our mouths for the dumb and pleading the cause of those who are ready to perish."


This quote from the last that you post of Angelina's speeches, is priceless enough to warrant another kick for this thread via my continued rant here.
When some feel that they are more oppressed than others, or that others are wearing their oppression too much on their sleeve, and resent them for that regardless the righteousness, we start to forget that all oppression is one oppression, that those in power are not really working on being bigotted or prejudicial, they are fostering these things in order to divide and conquer all the oppressed masses. Thus with each issue we must become one with each group, as you say , we are all gay, we are all homeless, we are all of all colors, we are all of all beliefs, we are all genders, we are all workers at every job, and all those bereft of work, all handicapped, mentally ill, we are all oppressed..

And we must all to the greatest of our capacity use our voices, spread our stories, tell it like it is...(Sojourner Truth comes to mind...)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. we fear not a mob
Well said, Mary.

Very good. Very powerful.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Thanks
:blush: your post inspired me!
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kick (nt)
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. kick
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. thanks
Wish I could have generated more interest and discussion on this thread...
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