HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION-palooza ...

[ColbertWatcher]

Poll question: HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION-palooza ...

This is a hypothetical question based on a current event and some historical ones as well.

Here's the question:

If a parent belongs to a cult and one of their children dies because the cult discourages modern medicine and/or medical attention is the parent responsible for the child's death or is the cult?

[Kali]

1. I feel both are responsible,

but the parents much more so.

[.... callchet ....]

2. I guess

it's like dying from second hand smoke. You were almost dead anyways. There are not many parents that could be brain washed into letting there child

die. You could almost blame the cult for taking advantage of challenged people.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. "blame the cult for taking advantage of challenged people."

Good point.

I know there have been several examples of this in the past, but I don't remember what happened after the arrest.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. That Would Be Xenu's Fault

Naughty extraterrestrial tyrant!

[Lilith Velkor]

4. Related question: why do so many confuse Scientology with Christian Science?

Scientology rejects psychiatry (probably because some doctor told L Ron he was nuts, and his massive ego couldn't take it), but not other aspects of modern medicine.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. But, $cientologists do reject modern medicine.

They believe they are the only ones who can cure people with "touch therapy."

Not for all conditions, but for many of them.

[Lilith Velkor]

10. Only psychiatric conditions.

You are confusing Scientology with Christian Science.

[ColbertWatcher]

14. $cientology also discourages outside medical attention ...

... if it conflicts with their preferred methods.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Scientologists don't believe in PSYCHIATRIC meds

They don't avoid traditional medicine. They are NOT Christian Scientists.

LOL I never thought I would ever post a defense of Scientology.

[ColbertWatcher]

8. They don't accept all modern medicine.

There are many instances where the cult will allow only $cientology-based "treatment."

Wikileaks has lots and lots of stuff on the cult:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_collected_Operating_Thetan_documents

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Do you really think that contributed to Jett Travolta's death?

I don't. He had a disease that caused seizures. I have taught many kids who have seizure disorders. There isn't much medical science can do for many of them. I also have a student whose mom had a seizure in the bathtub 2 years ago and died.

Stuff happens.

[ColbertWatcher]

12. "Stuff happens." True, however ...

... the claim is that he had a disease that caused seizures. Until the autopsy results are confirmed by reputable doctors, no one knows what happened.

I just find it odd that a celebrity is given the benefit of the doubt, but some poor schlub--who finds themselves in the exact same situation--is more than likely to be found guilty in the court of public opinion.

Which is what the internets is, basically.

[varkam]

16. Uh...seizure meds can work wonders.

Just sayin'.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Or not.

The meds one of my students was given for seizures caused brain damage.

I have also had several kids whose seizures didn't get much better on meds. And once they hit puberty, the seizures almost always get worse.

[varkam]

19. So should we do away with seizure meds, then?

How about vaccines? Lets get rid of those, too. They cause autism, dontchyaknow.

Snarkiness aside, I have seen many people helped by seizure medication. All medication also carries risks that need to be weighed against the benefits. The fact that some people have adverse reactions to medications does not mean that others are helped tremendously by those same medications. I know people that, were it not for seizure meds, would not be able to hold down a job.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. When did I say anything about doing away with the meds?

Sheesh. Go back and read my post again.

[varkam]

29. That was hyperbole, which would have been obvious had you read mine.

You know, the "snarkiness aside" bit.

[ZombieHorde]

28. I have seen many helped by seizure meds, and a few who did not seem to benefit.

If I had a seizure disorder, I would try some.

[MADem]

20. Autism, in and of itself, does not "cause" seizures.

And that Kawasaki Syndrome crap was just that, crap. No seizures with that disorder, either.

Was the kid on a brain medication to help mitigate those seizures?

Or was he urged to step up to the plate and "fix himself?" Like a good little Scientologist?

AVOIDABLE stuff happens, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Yes, kids with ks do indeed have seizures

" . . . because blood vessel function can be affected throughout the body, children with Kawasaki Syndrome may be subject to seizures, according to Dr. Alan Greene, online pediatric expert for WebMD"

http://www.examiner.com/x-264-Celebrity-News-Examiner~y2009m1d2-John-Travoltas-son-dies-Did-Kawasaki-Syndrome-cause-Jett-Travoltas-fatal-seizure

Almost all children with Kawasaki disease are quite irritable. Because blood vessels throughout the body can be affected to varying degrees, many other symptoms might or might not be seen. These include diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, cough, runny nose, headache, arthritis, burning urination, mouth sores, sensitivity to light, nerve weakness, confusion, or seizures.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_378.html

[MADem]

32. And they're about as common as toenails on a pig, too.

Which is about how common KS is. And the prevalence is in INFANTS. Toddlers. Kids up to age eight. On the remote, rare chance that this kid had it, once, he didn't still have it. It resolves. Even if there are after effect, the condition resolves.

I'm sorry--I don't believe that kid had it. That child was autistic. I think Joey Travolta, his uncle, had it right.

Autism, on the other hand, is a seizure-friendly condition. Twenty five percent of adolescents with autism have seizures. They can often, not always, but often, be cured of them by four years of therapy on an anti-seizure medication. The side effect of the treatment is that verbal and cognitive skills often improve, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. So when you said "No seizures with that disorder, either. "

you were incorrect.

Gotcha.

[MADem]

35. If you want to suggest that toenails on a pig are common, go ahead.

And if you want to play "gotcha," go right ahead.

Concrete, rigid thinking is not really something to take pride in, IMO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I didn't say 'common'

You said no seizures. I proved you wrong. Then you brought up the stupid pig toenails response.

It has nothing to do with rigid thinking. It's about you making a mistake and not being adult enough to admit it.

[MADem]

37. Yes and it is entirely possible that you are a Rhodes Scholar, but the likelihood of that,

like the likelihood of a KS seizure in a sixteen year old caucasian male, is pretty fucking close to NIL. Now, NIL may not be QUITE zero, but it's pretty close to it--rather like your arguments.

So you have a nice and smug day, now, with your concrete and literal views, eh? Bask away!

:hi:

[dems_rightnow]

11. Wikileaks..... HA HA

*still snickering*

[ColbertWatcher]

13. : p n/t

[Starry Messenger]

22. Actually, their track record with traditional medicine isn't too hot either.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/personal_story/tory/affidavit.html

Tory Christman was encouraged to get off her seizure medicine to attain higher levels in training. The link has some graphic accounts of what happened to her.

[ColbertWatcher]

24. Thank you.

It seems that everyone believes that $cientology only rejects psychiatric medicine and accepts all other forms of modern medicine.

I think people who believe that idea above are giving the cult too much credit and underestimate exactly how warped they really are.

They have created not only their own belief system, but their own justifications and language to protect those beliefs.

It would be nice if more people understood how and why cults are so dangerous.

[Starry Messenger]

30. I agree.

I have a close relative involved in an EST offshoot and he plays chicken with his serious health concerns partially at their behest. EST was also "inspired" by Scientology so I've done a lot of reading in this area.

[varkam]

15. It is a fine line between a cult and a religion.

Legally, if it is a *religious* tradition, then there is not responsibility - aggravating circumstances notwithstanding - given that the USC provides for such religious freedoms and that using the criminal courts to punish inaction on the part of parents would probably encroach onto their religious rights.

Of course, it's a fine line between a cult and a religion. If I decide to start a new church - varkamism - and we eschew all forms of medical treatment for ourselves and our families, and one of my adherents has a sick child that subsequently dies, I would have a hard time believing that they would not be held criminally liable.

JMO.

[ColbertWatcher]

18. I didn't know this.

I'd also like to join Varkamism, please sign me up for your newsletter.

[TWiley]

23. Have Bush reject his medical insurance and adopt a faith healer when sick.

The chimp is all for religion and totally against medical science, so let him, and all those who agree with him, die when the faith-healing method fails.

Lets encourage this, and not fight it. It is perhaps the best way to thin the heard.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. They're always willing to accept scientist, but only when it's convenient. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. I blame the Thetans!

Lousy fucking dead alien soul bastards! :grr:

[ColbertWatcher]

27. You can't blame the Thetans.

You're leading us along a slippery slope.

First you blame the Thetans, then the volcanoes, where will it end?

Please, let's leave the Thetans out of this until the autopsy results are in.

[Greyhound]

33. Please define "cult". n/t

[slackmaster]

38. I presume that cult membership is not compulsory

The parent volunteered to join and can leave at any time, and is therefore culpable for everything that flows from those decisions.