Let me show you something, and it shows why I'm suspicious of Scientology in re Jett Travolta:

[originalpckelly]

http://www.xenutv.com/hearings/mckee.htm

Scientology is not a religion, and has never been a religion.

[Pab Sungenis]

1. Yeah, but that doesn't

automatically implicate them in the death of this boy.

[originalpckelly]

3. No, you're right, it does not.

Very true, on the other hand, it's like a serial killer being accused of another murder.

[MADem]

4. If they follow the tenets of the cult, that child was denied basic care.

His problems were "his fault" according to that outfit. If he were only a better boy, he could "overcome" them!

[jeff30997]

2. Nope.

But these crooks get all the advantages of religion.No taxes! Fuck em all!

[originalpckelly]

6. To this day, I believe it's in Israel...

they call themselves a science, NOT a religion.

People involved wit Scientology are not stupid, they're just victims of a brilliant mind control scheme.

[Lifetimedem]

10. I think for the famous or wanna be it starts out

for them to make good "contacts"...then it sucks them in .

The ordinary people mostly have serious emotional problems and have already tried many thinks.. so this is the next step .

One has to feel sorry for them.

[originalpckelly]

11. It's really pretty fucked up, they "audit" you for all the shit you've in your past...

as a way to go "clear" and then they keep those files on record.

Can you imagine how damaging it would be to one of these famous people if all their dirty secrets were aired in public?

[Lifetimedem]

54. which might be why they stay AND PAY

blackmail by any other name

[Pithlet]

106. I've known one member

A coworker got involved with it through her boyfriend. This was years ago and I didn't know nearly as much about it then as I do now, but I knew enough to stay away when they asked me to come to some recruiting event, thank goodness. She was definitely not stupid. Looking back knowing what I do now, I wonder if the boyfriend wasn't just a recruit targeting her on purpose, and not really interested in a relationship.

[hlthe2b]

5. He suffered the chronic effects of Kawasaki Syndrome...

His death would not be unexpected... Read up on it and I think you'll understand.

[originalpckelly]

7. Kawasaki's Disease/Syndrome is not common in children over the age of 8.

[originalpckelly]

8. In addition, when children to die from it...

it's usually cardiac arrest caused by an aneurysm in the child's coronary arteries.

And only 1% of the people who get it die from it.

[hlthe2b]

24. Arrhythimas are a common sequelae. Death from arrhythmias

are not infrequently preceded by seizure activity and could easily have also resulted in the fall in the bathroom.

[hlthe2b]

23. It is most common in males under 5 the chrobnic effects are lifetime

as the damage has been done to vasculature and heart muscle in frequent cases. He was a young child when he developed the febrile illness that marks the initial stage of Kawasaki Syndrome.

[redqueen]

9. His death would not be unexpected?

What the everloving hell are you talking about?

:wtf:

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

12. Scientology.

[hlthe2b]

26. Complications of Kawasaki include cornary artery dilitations

and aneurysms, and KS is a leading cause of acquired heart disease in the United States. Arrhthmias are a frequent consequence, along with seizures.


Here's an abstract from a recent clinical journal on the subject:
After the acute phase, Kawasaki's disease becomes chronic and sudden death is possible even if many years have elapsed. In the chronic phase, coronaritis, coronary aneurysms, marked stenosis and/or occlusive thrombosis are often present. Cardiac Lesions were classified from stage I to IV according to the duration of illness at death. The present work deals with the case of a 17 year old man, dying from undiagnosed coronary artery chronic Kawasaki disease. The patient had been hospitalized for Wolff-Parkinson-white syndrome; ten months after discharge he died suddenly, while performing gymnastics at school. Occluding thrombosis of cylindrical aneurysm of both coronary arteries, from undiagnosed Kawasaki arteritis, was found and the young boy succumbed to hyperacute infarction. The heart was fixed in buffered formalin 10% and embedded in paraffin. Histological examination of the cardiac conduction system has been carried out on serial sections, with the technique usually adopted by one of the present authors (L. Rossi). Hema-toxylin-eosin (H-E) and trichromic (Hei-denhein-azan) stainings have routinely employed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8767612

[redqueen]

28. 1%

"unexpected" is hardly an appropriate word.

[hlthe2b]

30. not totally unexpected.

Happy? Geebus....

[redqueen]

33. IMO your comments have been extremely misleading. (nt)

[hlthe2b]

36. I work and publish in the field

Sorry if you feel that way, as they are not meant to be. I don't know what your issue is. Some here seem determined to blame the parents for neglecting care for the child, simply because they are scientologists-- and they are thus inferring that that means they would have refused medical care for him. I don't know either way if that is the case and have seen nothing to suggest it might be true.

Nonetheless, I am no fan of Scientology, but I hate to see grieving parents villainized for something that may have been totally beyond their power to avoid. Medical science and the published epidemiological literature suggests there is at least a possibility that that is the case.

--edited for typos--

[redqueen]

39. deleted

[redqueen]

46. Check your PMs. (nt)

[hlthe2b]

47. thank you...

;)

[ColbertWatcher]

60. You may do work in the field, but ...

... unless it can be proven that the child had the disease people are claiming he had, plus if it can be proven that the child died from that disease, we are just taking the word of members of a cult.

Nothing has been shown, nothing has been proven.

As you may already know, $cientologists deny the existence of autism. As far as they are concerned, it doesn't exist. Can you imagine a $cientology doctor denying care because of the GOP's "Right of conscience rule?"

The cult also believes they can cure most disorders with "touch therapy."

It is beyond suspicious how this child died and respecting the grief of the parents, facts surrounding his death have to come out.

[hlthe2b]

82. the autopsy should (hopefully) provide the answers...

until then, I would hope all could avoid the totally unproven accusations toward the parents inherent in this thread. Perhaps not you, Colbertwatcher, but there are those who want to ASSUME that there was something totally nefarious about this child's death and that the Travolta's-- through purported neglect and their Scientology-- were somehow to blame.

I am no personal fan of Scientology and I am aware of their stance on psychiatric care-- which is horrendous. I am not aware of any stance against standard interventional care for physical conditions, but would be as adamant in my condemnation as anyone here (perhaps more so) if that were the case. I understand that some posting may have lots of reason to detest Scientology from their own personal experiences. Others may not like Travolta, but regardless, I wanted to try to counter some of the speculation. If as has been reported, this child suffered the most severe complications of Kawasaki Syndrome, his own medical condition may very well explain his tragic sudden death.

[mzmolly]

67. Thank

you for the rational perspective. I fully agree.

[hlthe2b]

;) back at ya...

[mzmolly]

86. .

:hi: :pals:

[Lint Head]

18. There are drugs to prevent the seizures.

:dem:

[hlthe2b]

22. and you know that he wasn't on these drugs?

I'm quite interested to see your source of this info...:shrug:

[mountainvue]

127. John Travolta's Son: Meds Ultimately Did Harm

http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/04/john-travoltas-son-meds-ultimately-did-harm/

We're now told the grand mal seizures Jett suffered were "frequent and extremely serious." Travolta's lawyers, Michael Ossi and Michael McDermott, tell us "each seizure was like a death," with Jett losing consciousness and convulsing.

We now know Jett was taking a drug called Depokate, a strong anti-seizure medication. There have been reports Travolta refused to give his son anti-seizure meds because of Scientology but those stories are not true.

Jett had been having seizures on an average of every four days, until he started taking Depokate. Ossi and McDermott say the drug initially worked, reducing the frequency to approximately once every three weeks.

Jett took Depokate for "several years," but it eventually lost its effectiveness, according to Ossi and McDermott. They say the Travoltas were concerned about possible physical damage. And, Jett went back to having around one seizure a week. So Travolta and Preston, after consulting neurosurgeons, stopped administering the drug.

[hlthe2b]

27. Acute death years later is not that uncommon from Kawasaki

which causes dilitation of coronary artery and aneurysms, and is a leading cause of acquired heart disease in the United States. Arrhthmias are a frequent consequence, along with seizures.


Here's an abstract from a recent clinical journal on the subject:
After the acute phase, Kawasaki's disease becomes chronic and sudden death is possible even if many years have elapsed. In the chronic phase, coronaritis, coronary aneurysms, marked stenosis and/or occlusive thrombosis are often present. Cardiac Lesions were classified from stage I to IV according to the duration of illness at death. The present work deals with the case of a 17 year old man, dying from undiagnosed coronary artery chronic Kawasaki disease. The patient had been hospitalized for Wolff-Parkinson-white syndrome; ten months after discharge he died suddenly, while performing gymnastics at school. Occluding thrombosis of cylindrical aneurysm of both coronary arteries, from undiagnosed Kawasaki arteritis, was found and the young boy succumbed to hyperacute infarction. The heart was fixed in buffered formalin 10% and embedded in paraffin. Histological examination of the cardiac conduction system has been carried out on serial sections, with the technique usually adopted by one of the present authors (L. Rossi). Hema-toxylin-eosin (H-E) and trichromic (Hei-denhein-azan) stainings have routinely employed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8767612

[redqueen]

29. Please state the reason you use the phrase "not that uncommon".

Thank you.

[hlthe2b]

31. Depends on your perspective...

Rare outcomes in epidemiology parlance are typically far less prevalent than 1/100 (1%)

[redqueen]

35. Yes...

"perspective" allows for people to make all kinds of misleading statements.

[hlthe2b]

38. I have backed my assertions up with published links

Where are your facts to assert I have been misleading? What EXACTLY is your problem? If you want to think the parents were at blame, go ahead--perhaps they were. There is an alternative explanation for the death, however and I present that based on what has been reported publicly about the child and his medical history...

I won't be responding to you further, as you seem to have some agenda that I am not privy to and which you are turning towards me in a personal attack. I find THAT misleading, at the very least. Have a nice day.

[redqueen]

40. For me this isn't about the Travoltas.

I just want to believe that deaths are very rare. That's what our pediatrician told us, and what all the research I've read seems to back up.

[hlthe2b]

49. Death is quite rare among all children affected with Kawasaki's

There is a spectrum of affects and it does appear Travolta's son may have been among the extreme end of severe impacts. Among those who suffered the most damage from the initiation of Kawasakis, the long term chronic affects are the most severe...

So no, those comments nor the stats on acute death absolutely would NOT apply to ALL children who have suffered from Kawasaki. I hope that helps to clarify and I wish you and your child all the best for a very healthy future.

[hlthe2b]

32. I already did in my previous response. eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Which don't work 100% of the time

and the side effects are horrific.

[Hamlette]

64. no way, not at his age and not the way he died

heart attack at 16 caused by untreated Kawasaki Syndrome but not seizures.

[babythunder]

125. Most medical professionals

have stated that this disease is very rarely fatal nor is it found commonly in children over the age of 8. No offense but I think I'll take the word of medical professionals about this illness over the Travoltas. Also keep in mind that Kelly Preston stated that their son was cured of this illness. So if they are being completely truthful then what caused this seizure was it just a totally healthy 16 year old has a seizure and dies?

[ColbertWatcher]

134. Maybe.

The child might have had Kawasaki Syndrome.

[patrice]

13. Minister, Reverend, Doctor: "we" are way toooo loose in "our" use of these words.

Someone needs to start-up a standards clearing house to list the characteristics of ALL of the title-granting organizations.

[Delphinus]

14. Boy, do you have that right!!!

When one goes through the hard work to actually EARN their PhD and then meets someone who goes to a mail order religion to get their paper PhD, and the mail order PhD actually thinks they are as educated as the first, there's a real disconnect.

[originalpckelly]

15. Indeed.

And just look at what it's done in this case. Just one of many things that should be regulated.

[patrice]

16. My experience of Minister and Reverand is that these are people who have decided

that it is their BUSINESS to tell me how to live my life.

I think we are also going to see them quite active in an emotional support capacity for medical judgement calls that get Baby Boomers to go ahead and shuffle "off this mortal coil" because of macro-financial reasons that look completely "reasonable" and justifiable at the micro-level AND with plenty of cooperation by confused, ignorant, and frightened family. Look for growth in the Hospice INDUSTRY.

[patrice]

19. BTW, my comments in this thread may become quite relevant when we turn our attention to

Obama's Faith Based Initiatives.

[patrice]

20. And the word Doctor is going to come under scrutiny if/when we get to include

preventative and alternative medicine in National Health Care Reform.

[alarimer]

57. This better not happen

CAM (or more like SCAM) is totally bogus and wholly unsupported by any credible medical evidence.

[ColbertWatcher]

76. Well, with the GOP's injection of their "right of conscience" rules ...

... we may begin to see all sorts of crap competing with science-based medicine being practiced.

[babythunder]

129. I agree

the title of doctor should be not given to individuals with so-called religious training. It should only be given in cases to people with the necessary studies to achieve a PHD or a medical doctor who has gone through medical school.

[Lint Head]

17. Scientology is totally bogus. That is a fact easily provable.

If Travolta is a practicing Scientology's then they use no drugs at all. Hubbard was a criminal that was hiding from Federal IRS agents when he died. His science fiction books are really badly written. I read them as a boy.

In 1977, Hubbard was named an un indicted co-conspirator in a federal crime that resulted in 11 Scientology officials being given five-year prison sentences for infiltrating, burglarizing and wiretapping the IRS, FBI and other government agencies.

It's bizarre that so many people could die and nothing is done because this bogus religion keeps secrets based on trademark law.

Powerful people are Scientologists and they are the ones preventing a full vetting of this cult.

[Beaverhausen]

43. What religion isn't?

they are all bogus if you ask me. Doesn't mean people shouldn't follow them if it works for them.

[druidity33]

81. yes, but...

how many other religions trademark and copyright all of their "texts"?

:shrug:

[originalpckelly]

102. It's like Amway, they make their money off the training materials.

But on top of that, they have a core base of nuts who work on staff who've been brainwashed.

[Pithlet]

112. What makes Scientology different

isn't its whacky belief system. Really, that's a subjective judgment call. People tend to judge belief systems that aren't their own pretty harshly to begin with. What sets Scientology apart from the mainstream religions is the structure of its organization and how it scams its members out of money. Let's take Christianity, for instance. Sure, you can probably come up with some examples of Christians who have been scammed out of money by some people who took advantage of their faith. But, overall, to be a Christian, it isn't required of you to come up with any money. You aren't required to purchase any courses. That's the difference. If Scientology provided all of their information and imparted its belief system to its members for free, and merely solicited donations like the vast majority of all other mainstream religions, then it would be the same as all other religions.

[Ioo]

108. WAY BACK, My dad was in Jail with Hubbard... He has told me some stories

My dad said that Hubbard was hatching the thing for some time...

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Basically if they say it is a religion it is a religion.

Just because you don't like this or that religion, and prefer to call it a scam or a cult or whatever derogative phrase you choose to label it with, does not make your despised religion not a religion.

Making money and having as a primary objective making money characterizes many of the major religious organizations operating in this country. In particular the whole fundaloon set of crackpot religious organizations are full of tv-evangelists and megachurch scam artists who rake in the cash working people's fear of enternal damnation. Obviously this is not a disqualifying characteristic for an organization that claims to be a religion.

Illegal activities? Catholic church? Which reminds me, what the heck is the difference between 'confession' and 'auditing' other than 2000 years of one and only 60 years of the other?

I ain't a fan of religion at all but as far as most religious organizations go, Scientology's only major difference is age.

So where exactly is this evidence that the Travolta's did something wrong regarding their son's medical treatment?

I guess we are just supposed to take that part on faith.

[Pithlet]

34. There are some key differences, though.

You can't just say "I'm a Scientologist" and Scientology will welcome you into their fold as long as you follow their prescribed belief system and live based on their tennets of faith. You have to pay. If you don't pay, you aren't a member of Scientology. You have to take their courses, and they cost money. The more money you pay, the higher up the ranks you go. No matter how hard you believe. No matter how good you are as a Scientologist. If you don't pony up the dough, you don't belong, and you don't rise up in the ranks. That's what sets Scientology apart from most of the other "mainstream" religions. Sure, if you want to technically call them a religion, fine. But people who don't equate them with mainstream religions do indeed have very reasonable arguments for doing so.

That aside, I do not agree with smearing the Travoltas right now. There is absolutely no evidence that it's their belief and membership in Scientology that killed their son. That is so much tabloid fodder. Even all that stuff about them not accepting the fact their son has Autism seems like so much tabloid speculation to me.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. There are plenty of religions that won't let you participate if you don't pay.

And again, even if your point is valid, how exactly does that disqualify Scientology from being a religion? Where is that distinction defined?

"people who don't equate them with mainstream religions" - ok now that is just moving the goalposts. But again this is an irrelevant argument. The constitution does not make a distinction between 'mainstream religions' and 'non-mainstream religions'. It grants everyone 'Freedom of Religion' and demands 'Separation of Church and State' through the establishment clause. Scientologists have the same right to their religion and its practices as you do to yours, regardless of your opinion of their religion. That is sort of the point of Freedom of Religion. The state really cannot pick and choose among religions, elevating some to a higher 'mainstream' status either, that would be a violation of the establishment clause.

[Pithlet]

59. I didn't say it completely disqualifies it from being a religion.

I just think it also makes it a huge scam. I would classify its followers as victims. I wouldn't say the same of all believers of all religions. Not all religions are scams. Plenty of religions won't let you participate if you don't pay? Fine. They're scams, too. But you don't have to pay anything to be a Christian. You don't have to pay anything to be Jewish. Or Buddhist. Or Muslim. Etc. That's my point. People want to say there's no difference between people who practice those faiths and people who practice Scientology. But there is.

[Warren Stupidity]

88. You don't have to pay?

Hmmm... yeah you do. Many religions expect you to put in 10% of your income. Heck just google pay to pray. http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272008/news/regionalnews/its_pay_to_pray_121820.htm

Oh yeah sure but those are mainstream religions so it is ok. I see no difference here. As far as I am concerned they are all scams, constitutionally protected scams, but scams.

[Pithlet]

105. No. You don't.

If a church "requires" you to pay 10%, and you are uncomfortable with the fact that they've actually codified the donation system into faith, you can always find another church that doesn't. Plenty of churches will allow you to attend their services and learn about their faith and allow you to be members for free. Not so with Scientology. Even the ones that say your faith requires you to pay 10% of your income aren't usually doing it solely for a profit. Tithes aren't really the same thing as the costs required for courses. Their denominations have simply included tithes as a tennet of their faith to better compel people to donate. Churches do require some form of income to function, but profit is not their purpose. Or it isn't supposed to be. Some churches and other houses of worships of course are scams. But other members of mainstream faiths could easily find other houses of worship if they discovered this, or are otherwise unhappy with how things are run. But pretty much all of Scientology is run the same way. You have to buy the courses, and you have to buy your way up the chain. And it's not a sliding scale based on what you can afford, like a tithe. It's a set price, and if you can't afford it, you aren't making it to the upper levels. It's a money making scam.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. That is an awful argument.

Either Scientology is unique in its requirement to pay to pray or it isn't. The comment I responded to claimed that Scientology is not a religion because it demands money from its members. I pointed out that plenty of religions have similar requirements. A claim that if you don't like the pay to pray requirements of one church you can go to another is irrelevant to the argument that Scientology is unique in requiring that you pay to pray, Scientology is not unique. It is just another bullshit religion.

So your next point is that well it isn't a sliding scale. So your claim that Scientology isn't a religion now rests on the assertion that a religion must charge a sliding scale for membership or it isn't a religion? Really? Are you sure about that?

If you want a seat in major holiday services in many churches and temples you have to pay the price. The better the seat the higher the price. I am fairly confident that no sliding scale based on income is universal to religious institutions that charge for seating in their places of worship for major holidays.

What this nonsense continues to boil down to is that some people who despise Scientology have managed to convince themselves that there are specific standards that must be met for an organization to qualify as a religion and that Scientology somehow hasn't managed to meet those qualifications. I can't seem to find those specific standards in the constitution, and neither it seems can our government. But don't take my word for it: http://www.religiousfreedom.com/articles/casino.htm

Google the subject yourself. Your sliding scale argument is just plain old nonsense. Scientology fits all the common definitions of religions. For example, from wiki:


Religion has been defined in a wide variety of ways. Most definitions attempt to find a balance somewhere between overly sharp definition and meaningless generalities. Some sources have tried to use formalistic, doctrinal definitions while others have emphasized experiential, emotive, intuitive, valuational and ethical factors. Definitions mostly include:
a notion of the transcendent or numinous, often, but not always, in the form of theism
a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality (ethos) and virtue (arete)
a set of myths or sacred truths held in reverence or believed by adherents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Just because you don't like Scientology and you think it is a fraud and a scam does not disqualify it as a religion. I think almost all religions are frauds and scams, they remain religions.

[ColbertWatcher]

109. "I do not agree with smearing the Travoltas right now"

I have not seen anyone smear the Travoltas.

I have only seen sympathy for the parents and sister. the only scorn I have seen has been for the cult and the possibility that they may have had a part in the child's death.

Speculation of course, but this is the internets, where no one believes the initial reports from the GOP-controlled media.

Remember what happened with the guy accused of being the anthrax mailing terrorist?

The internets did some good work with that story.

Personally, I'd like to see the Travoltas free from the cult. He's got to know that people would not judge him so severely if he were to leave and the cult was to disclose his "auditing" sessions. They all have to know they'd be accepted outside the influence of the cult.

[Pithlet]

113. What I meant was I don't think there's enough information, yet.

There simply isn't enough information to know what happened to make a declarative statement. I do get the impression that a small few seem to have made up their minds. This is DU, after all. One post in particular linked to articles stating that Travolta was ashamed of his son because of his Autism. I'm sorry, but that is tabloid smear. I would love nothing more than to see Scientology utterly dissolved. I'm not one to read a whole lot of celebrity gossip, but what little I ever did read about the Travoltas, I always got the impression they loved their son. The very first thing I thought of when I read about the death was an article I read once about his room they decorated when he was little. They'd done it in a jungle theme, complete with a tire swing. I just felt so sad. I know they're big time Scientologists, and I'm fully aware of how criminal that orginization is and how brainwashed its members can be. But, just because he had a seizure doesn't mean they weren't treating him for seizures. Scientologists have whacky notions about medical care, it's true, but that doesn't mean they don't seek modern medicine at times. The Scientologist I knew did avail herself of modern medicine, and she was pretty sucked into the whole thing. She saw a neurologist, a regular non Scientologist one, for migraines. It could turn out that they weren't seeking the proper care, but we may never find that out due to privacy laws. It's easy to forget that celebrities are strangers to us. We don't know these people, and we don't know what measures they took with their son.

[ColbertWatcher]

114. The problem is that the cult is very secretive.

Which will be the biggest roadblock to an honest and open investigation.

[Pithlet]

115. No doubt, Scientology as an organization is a secretive cult.

That doesn't mean the members themselves will automatically medically neglect their children. If all the members did that, the cult wouldn't be able to cover up all the cases of neglect, no matter how secretive. Besides, there are two doctors independent of the cult who are going to perform the autopsy. That's a start.

[ColbertWatcher]

116. I hope you're correct.

But, there is still a chance that a buttload of money could separate those two doctors from their independence.

The cult is known for interfering to protect itself.

As far as

"... members themselves will automatically medically neglect their children."

I think you might be underestimating what brainwashing does to people.

There's no proof that the parents did anything underhanded, they may have been the victims of bad luck and circumstances. However, if the cult is found to have pressured the family in making decisions based not on currently accepted medical practices, but on "church" practices then the cult needs to be held accountable.

That's what makes the cult so dangerous. They brainwash their members and blackmail them to maintain the illusion of "infallibility."

That may not be what happened here, but leaving that poor child unattended in a tub for hours does not sound like something a parent would willingly do.

A real investigation should be conducted, not just an autopsy.

But, hey, this is just the internets, right?

What can a bunch of indiviiduals connected by a series of tubes do?

[originalpckelly]

51. They call themselves a science in Israel. What religion does that?

:shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

58. Scientology?

I realize you hate Scientology, perhaps for good reasons. Regardless of that, they can be a religion here if they choose to be.

[dflprincess]

93. I think Confession probably served more of a purpose before

psychotherapy - it was/is a way for people to talk about something that was bothering them and it is done anonymously (unless you choose not to do it that way). You were given a penance (in my day it usually consisted of 3-5 Hail Marys and Our Fathers) and you promised to make an effort not to commit the same "sins" again, but I never, never heard a priest or nun tell someone that a physical problem was the result of their failure to conquer their weaknesses. We might get told that something was our "cross to bear" but never that God was picking on us (punishment being reserved for the afterlife).

The biggest problem with Confession is that the church has such a long list of trivial human tendencies that it classes as "sinful".

[ColbertWatcher]

107. Hmm. Where to start?

First let me commend you on not allowing yourself to be tricked by religious scams.

However ...

"... what the heck is the difference between 'confession' and 'auditing' other than 2000 years of one and only 60 years of the other?"

I think you know the difference. but, in case you don't here are some differences: "confession" is free; "auditing" is not. "Confession" is not required, or mandatory; "auditing" is. "Confessions" cannot be used as blackmail against the "confessee", not only is "auditing" used as blackmail, they are coerced, and in no way "anonymous."

So where exactly is this evidence that the Travolta's did something wrong regarding their son's medical treatment?

I guess we are just supposed to take that part on faith.

What is being "taken on faith" is that the cult did not prevent the parents from taking the child to qualified medical professionals to get state-of-the-art diagnosis. There are basically three possibilities here: the child died as a result of an unforeseen accident, the parents deliberately harmed the child, or the cult brainwashed the parents into believing only the cult could care for the child.

Three distinct possibilities. I'm hoping it's number one, I doubt it could be number two, but I'm suspicious that it could be three and no one will be allowed to investigate it properly.

[Warren Stupidity]

130. it really doesn't matter if confession is free or not

and by the way, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned it most certainly is mandatory. The point is that you and many others here keep insisting that raking in money and being a religion are mutually exclusive. They aren't. Scientology fits standard definitions of religion, and it seems that it also meets the dubious IRS standards as well.

I am, absent any evidence to the contrary, giving the Travoltas the common courtesy of not prejudging them, and assuming that this was simply a tragic unfortunate event. Assuming otherwise is disgusting, in my opinion, and you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

[DavidDvorkin]

25. Sure it's a religion

They're all absurd and based on delusions and priestly inventions. They don't all use strongarm tactics, but that's the only thing that sets Scientology apart from most of the others.

[Lint Head]

37. Yeah like rattle snakes in your mailbox.

:dem:

[Quantess]

41. I wish we could start taxing them.

[ColbertWatcher]

78. There has to be a way for churches to be taxed. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

42. You seem obsessed with this group- what is your experience with them personally?

I'm curious.

[emilyg]

45. Good question.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. truly...

I wonder as well :popcorn:

[ColbertWatcher]

62. I wonder too.

But, then I also wonder about all the people who are so defensive and are just as obsessed with protecting the cult.

Those are the interesting ones.

[Beaverhausen]

65. I happen to know many scientologists personally

and while I know that the organization is questionable to say the least, I also know that some of it's members aren't wackjobs; they are in fact happy, successful people. None of them ever try to get me to join up.

So I am always curious when people criticize something that they don't have any personal knowledge of.

[ColbertWatcher]

69. There are many people who've never ...

... been to Darfur making their opinions known regarding the possibility that a genocide is taking place.

Plus, this is the internets, there's no way to know if anyone is telling the truth about who or what they know, or have experience in the fields they claim to be experts in or been to where they claim they've been to.

All we have to go by are the links people provide, otherwise doubt is always in order.

[Beaverhausen]

71. but people here are making assumptions about the Travolta's treatment of their son

merely because they are scientologists, and not based on any concrete reported facts.

They are entitled to make assumptions, but others are also allowed to voice opposite or even questioning opinions, are they not?

[ColbertWatcher]

74. You're making an assumption that the reported facts are concrete.

"... others are also allowed to voice opposite or even questioning opinions, are they not?"

I'm going to have to agree.

The reports coming out of the Bahamas have not been verified, and I would question the autopsy unless it can be confirmed by an unbiased third-party, American-licensed medical professional.

If I recall correctly, Travolta's lawyer was the one to make statements regarding what happened.

The parents should be allowed to grieve, but the truth should be known whenever a child dies.

Don't you agree?

[Beaverhausen]

75. I'm not making any assumptions

I have no idea who made any statements; I am waiting for the autopsy and the police investigation to be completed.

I have the feeling you will question the results of any autopsy that doesn't point to the tenants of scientology as the ultimate cause of this boy's death. But, that is your right. Have at it.

[ColbertWatcher]

77. But you have, and have again.

You're assuming the news reports are completely factual.

You're assuming the parents went to trained medical professionals to get the correct diagnosis of their child's condition.

You're also assuming what I will think.

So far, that's three assumptions.

[Beaverhausen]

80. show me where I have made assumptions about how Jett died?

as I said- I'm not making assumptions about his death either way until an investigation is concluded.

Your choice to agree or disagree with that investigation is up to you.

[ColbertWatcher]

91. That's not what I said. Don't change the subject.

It's posted for you to read again, if you choose to do so.

[np33]

96. Have you ever heard of him speak of his son?

recently on Oprah he stated that he and his wife wanted to have another baby to give their daugther a baby brother to play with and they didn't once mention their son.

This came for one of the Travolta's neighbors in Florida.

The Kennys also claim that Kelly and John "let Jett sit in front of video games all day eating junk food, while they eat the best organic food money can buy. They exclude Jett from all social events because they are embarrassed."

"Once," reports Kenny, "when Kelly took him to the movies, Jett started to have a meltdown and Kelly pointed at the nanny and ordered, 'Take care of it.'"

"Jett does not speak at all," confirms Kenny. "He has not even been taught how to communicate. We struggle every week to pay for our daughter's therapy. How dare he ruin his own son's chances of recovering! We want to get the word out on this."

[originalpckelly]

117. Got a link on this? HOLY SHIT!

That's pretty bad if true.

[np33]

119. Here's the direct link

http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com/archives/travolta_family_travesty_wild_hogs_star_gives_own_autistic_son_the_silent_treatment.phtml

[originalpckelly]

120. Wow! We can't be sure about this, it's second hand news...but

We can be sure that the parents were into this enough that the mom participated in a march:


And notice how there is this wild look in their eyes, what they're saying, and how everything has a unity. It's not like these people made their own signs or shirts, that was professionally done somewhere. It's not an organic protest, but one that's manufactured. I find that a creepy picture.

[np33]

122. In my opinion

Tom Cruise and the Travoltas have made very dangerous statements about the medical profession. I am not against alternative medicines nor do I believe that anytime a child has a problem pills should be shoved down their throats however I do have a serious problem with someone who barely has a high school education telling the public that certain types of medical treatments are bad and actively advocating for people to subscribe to "treatments" your church has cooked (who also aren't medical doctors).

It's one thing when a scientist or a medical doctor who has done significant testing and trials to come out advocate for alternative treatments. Scientologist are just as bad as though preachers who claim they can perform miracles.

[originalpckelly]

84. Do they live or work for Scientology, or are they on the outside?

If they're on the outside, I have no doubt what you say is true. It's wrong to think every Scientologist is a nutter, these are some of the best people in our nation. It makes sense that a fraud would target people with lots of money who are the very brightest and most successful people in their respective fields.

People who are "on staff" as it is called, are treated with very little basic human dignity, and they rarely receive any Scientology services, because they're not paying for them. Just SecChecks to make sure they aren't police officers.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. yeah, I can not say anything in defense of Scientology and I think

it does meet the criteria for being a cult as opposed to a religion. I just think that finding the Travoltas autaomatically guilty of killing their child through neglect is taking this a little far.

[ColbertWatcher]

72. No one wants to believe that a parent would ever kill their own child.

But, history has shown that when a parent belongs to a cult with fringe so-called religious beliefs, they may endanger themselves or their own children when outside help or knowledge conflicts with the "faith."

For example: Jonestown, Andrea Yates and several parents who've denied medical attention to their children because their "faith" prevents them from doing so.

Hell, even Marie Osmond admitted to having gone through postpartum depression^{Mamas Health}.

Cults are dangerous for this reason.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. Having worked in the medical field, I have experienced this when

parents have refused to receive blood either for themselves or for their children. I tend to be more anthropological in my outlook on all this. YMMV. Peace.

[originalpckelly]

85. And to assume they would be responsible, is not right...

if they are that far gone, then they do not have the freedom of thought to do that.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

87. Are you wanting me to argue with you about something?

Peace~TA

[originalpckelly]

104. Not really, but I doubt they have that type of control over themselves...

or maybe they do, and you're right. We don't really know.

[slackmaster]

121. I have personal experience with them - They declared me an SP2 and threatened to sue me

SP2 = Suppressive Person, Level 2.

[chrisa]

48. Yes, Scientology is a criminal enterprise, but...

The government has already shown no interest in going after them because of their "religious" status.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to join it, but whatever. If you want to give all of your money away to a dumb cult, fine.

[Lint Head]

52. They use extortion just like Jim Jones did.

It's just used in a different way. it's still extortion. :dem:

[originalpckelly]

55. Jim Jones = Precisely!

They've done the same thing, and I worry one day we'll wake up to find out the real people have offed themselves.

[ColbertWatcher]

61. I don't think they're a death cult, there's no profit in that.

But, I'm hoping someone brave comes out against them.

Hopefully Travolta.

That cult has really screwed him up.

[SoCalDem]

90. Neither was the People's Temple....until

well you know:(

[ColbertWatcher]

94. True, but Co$ is not restricted to one (living) guy at the top ...

... Miscavige works under the "church's" "board." He's like the Ahmadinejad of $cientology.

[originalpckelly]

103. I think there are more than a few...

who'd kill themselves at Miscaviges' order, just look at how wacko those people are in the video.

[ColbertWatcher]

110. You're probably correct.

Remember what Yoo and Addington did for their bosses?

Remember Goodling?

Cults are dangerous business. And they make fanatics of their members.

[originalpckelly]

53. We wacky woohoos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y&feature=related

[originalpckelly]

56. This video shows the irrational behavior, it's clear how disturbed these people are...

they only think people oppose their "church" because those people are criminals. Strange.

[Gin]

63. My 2 cents....John Travolta and his family have set a good example

over the years, in every way.....

there are nuts in every religion or cult as Scientology is called....

I belong to the A.R. E. in Va Beach and that is called a cult....if that makes me weird or crazy...color me weird and crazy.

Rest in Peace Jett....and my condolences to his family.

[ColbertWatcher]

66. Unless you know them personally, there is no way for you to know ...

...

"... in every way ..."

No one wants to think bad things about anyone, however the cult is dangerous and has a reputation for controlling their members.

After hearing about the children who were married off in that cult in Texas (FLDS) there has to be more investigation and awareness regarding cults.

[K Gardner]

79. This is b/s. Go back to supermarket tabloids and leave the irresponsible speculation

to the professionals. If you have information that is pertinent and relevant, call the freakin police. Otherwise, STFU.

[likesmountains 52]

83. But wait! All of these people are experts on Kawasaki's Disease, seizure disorders and

strange deaths in the Bahamas! This thread is sadly like the Nancy Grace of DU..

[ColbertWatcher]

92. Come on. Don't criticize the famil; how could they know that KD was a bad diagnosis!? n/t

[LWolf]

89. TWO of them?

One thread wasn't enough?

I have a suggestion.

Take your bitches about scientology to the religion forum. That's where it belongs.

Since Scientology IS a religion. Having known a few of them in my younger years, I'm comfortable with that conclusion.

Then, when an autopsy has been performed and a cause of death confirmed, if it has anything to do with medical neglect because of scientology, bring it back here.

Are you planning to blame the death of every scientologist reported in the news on scientology itself? Do you think none of them ever die of accident, injury, or natural causes? Or is it just Travolta's involvement in scientology you have a hard-on for?

Give it a rest, or take it here, until there is some evidence for why the kid died:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

Or don't. :eyes:

[np33]

95. You do

realize that this "religion" and use this term very liberally was founded by a Science Fiction writer.

I would interested to see what logic you use in determining Scientology is a religion?

[LWolf]

124. I do realize that, of course.

It's a belief system.

Any belief system taken to extremes in which anything outside that which is established within the system is rejected can be defined as religion.

Whether or not a belief system is based on "science," and whether or not that "science" is valid or not, is irrelevant.

As is the occupation of the founder of any belief system.

Carpenter, prophet, author, farmer, boat-builder, shepherd, merchant, prince, or fisherman or woman...there is no rule about who can or can't start a religion.

[originalpckelly]

98. Dianetics: The Modern SCIENCE of Mental Health

Umm, am I missing something here?

I think we all know Jesus was all, "Hey man, who's interested in Christianity: The Ancient Science of Mental Health?"

Buddha was all, "Yeah man, you should check out my science, it's like really cool! You meditate and junk."

[LWolf]

123. Yes, you are missing something.

If you think using the word "science" necessarily has anything to do with science.

And if you think that science and religion don't go together.

Either way, the use of the word "science" does not make scientology any less a belief system.

[L0oniX]

97. You mean the flying saucers wern't enough of a clue?

[PassingFair]

99. They must have run out of virgin birth stories..n/t

[originalpckelly]

101. I think we all know who Santa's calling a ho.

Just sayin'.

[originalpckelly]

100. I'm awaiting the GYANT KITTEH OF DUME!

:scared:

He wants his milk, beotch!

[JackRiddler]

111. What's a religion?

Scientology is a scam, as are most religions. If it lasts another 2000 years - "God" forbid - it will have a pope and cathedrals and museums full of fine art and libraries of genuinely great literature and L. Ron Hubbard will have been turned into a semi-legendary figure who loved children and rose from the dead etc. etc.

[LWolf]

126. Please respond in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4764523&mesg_id=4764523

[Beaverhausen]

128. don't hold your breath

[LWolf]

136. I didn't, lol. nt

[babythunder]

131. Again why

are the attorneys releasing this statement and not a medical professional? I don't know about you but I don't discuss my medical conditions or that of my family with my attorney. Read the article a little more closely

[LWolf]

137. I'm not sure what you mean by "again," but

probably the difference between you and I, and John Travolta, is that he is a known public figure who has a public image to defend, and who is a lot more likely to get more press coverage than you or I would, lol.

I don't really know, but I think people who are "public" enough to have the press paying attention often speak through others.

That said, I'm not arguing a side here. If I'm arguing, it's against taking a side at this point.

Not judging either way without a complete story, and the evidence from the autopsy.

Just makes sense to me, and seems the more empathetic way to approach any family's loss.

[babythunder]

140. You do realize that most celebrities pay

a great deal of money to PR people to do things like release statements? Also you think it's more empathetic to family's loss to call the attorney to release information about their loved one's medical conditions?

[LWolf]

141. Of course I realize that most celebrities

pay a great deal (to me) of money to have people to deal with the public, whether they are "PR people," agents, lawyers, whatever.

I don't see that obsessing over what kind of person speaks to the public for them has anything to do with empathy.

I have empathy for people who have suffered a loss, because I'm a human.

I have empathy for people who lose a son or daughter, because I'm a mother.

It doesn't have anything to do with who the people are.

It doesn't require a rush to any kind of judgment.

Which is my point.

[CraftyGal]

139. The attorney was a freind. nt

[ColbertWatcher]

135. Okay ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4764523&mesg_id=4765890

[LittleClarkie]

132. Catch 22

You accuse them of something you say will never be proven because of the monolithic nature of scientology. How convenient. You could say they regularly have monkeys flying out their butts if you wanted to, and then say we'd never be able to prove otherwise because Scientologists are everywhere.

[babythunder]

133. Umm when did I say it would

never be proven? It could very well be proven who knows but there are some serious questions that should be asked. One thing is clear is that they are desperately trying to close ranks.

[LittleClarkie]

138. Wasn't talking to you

And I didn't read your post so I don't know what you've said. Was talking to PCKelly