If Reid did insist that Blago appoint a white senator

[Ken Burch]

(or, in Duckworth's case, a bland, unelectable, passionless and ideal-free one)is there any good reason Reid should stay on as leader?

Didn't the last two years prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that bland, non-principled passion-free politics simply CAN'T work for us?

We SHOULD have had Senator Jesse Jackson Jr. Now we'll get someone no one will remember.

[tritsofme]

1. Reid insisted upon an electable candidate.

One that had the greatest chance of winning a statewide contest in two years.

Jesse Jackson Jr or Emil Jones are not that candidate.

[Radical Activist]

4. But Roland Burris

has been elected statewide in Illinois several times.

[tritsofme]

22. Hasn't Burris declared he intends to be a placeholder?

Either way, he hasn't won a statewide contest in more than a decade, and has lost several statewide primary contests since then.

The best chance for a real progressive with a chance to win statewide would be US Rep Jan Schakowsky.

[Radical Activist]

81. hah

I would love to see Jan do it but a white liberal from Chicago is not the safest bet for electability. Not by a long shot.

Roland has still been elected statewide more recently than Jan. He has proven statewide appeal. His problem is getting through the primary, not winning a general election. People like the chance to pick their own Senator in the primary but I haven't heard Roland say he won't run in 2010.

[pnwmom]

107. No, he specifically said the opposite. He intends to run in the election if he

is appointed now. Maybe even if he isn't.

[AZ Criminal JD]

18. Apparently no one with a black skin was electable to Reid

Burris is the fourth African-American he has rejected. Illinois has elected at least four African-Americans to state wide office. But Reid was willing to accept a woman who has never won an election.

[Occam Bandage]

19. Or a white skin, apparently. Duckworth is Asian-American. nt

[Ken Burch]

34. I didn't say Duckworth was white.

Reread the OP for clarity.

I said Duckworth is bland, passionless and unelectable. She proved that in 2006.

Also, she was clueless if she didn't draw the conclusion from her own experience that she should run as an all-out opponent of the Iraq War. There was no excuse for any of our candidates, in 2006, to still be running on a "we can do it better" platform on that war.

Besides, LBJ took any chance of our party running as the "more competent war party" away from us, and for good.

[Radical Activist]

83. Read the OP for idiocy.

There's plenty to be found. It's completely baseless and you haven't responded to anyone who pointed that out.

[Ken Burch]

88. Why are plumping for the three most conservative pro-establishment candidates available?

Why should Obama's successor have to be a bland mushburger?

[Radical Activist]

89. what three do you refer to?

You calling the names I've read conservative is complete bullshit. Once again you prove you know nothing about Illinois politics but you're always quick with a knee-jerk criticism about how Dems are too conservative.

[Ken Burch]

93. Duckworth, Madison and Burris(although Burris is the most progressive of the trio)

Lisa Madigan, from all I can see, is just another HRC type. There can never be a good reason to have another politician in that mold.

[Radical Activist]

96. You know nothing about Illinois politics.

Lisa Madigan has a strong liberal record. In her entire career I've only found one thing I strongly disagree with. I would argue that Madigan is more liberal than Burris.

[Ken Burch]

99. You're right, I didn't know that.

Still, given the types that dominate Illinois politics, you can't blame me for assuming the worst about anyone the establishment there would like.

[tritsofme]

23. Anyone appointed by Blago was unacceptable.

The fact that Blago/Rush/Burris tried to play the race card only makes their display more despicable.

[Radical Activist]

82. When/how did Reid "reject" anyone

other than Burris? Are you pulling this out of your ass?

[Radical Activist]

2. On what plaent

would Reid demand a white Senator?
:crazy:

[orleans]

62. no where. but why don't the senate dems get a GOOD majority leader?

what the hell is wrong with all of them?

[kiva]

3. What, bored with the lack of racial wars here lately? n/t

[TankLV]

37. aparently not yet...

[wyldwolf]

5. silly

[pscot]

6. Major Tammy Duckworth is an Asian American

war vet who lost both legs in the fighting in Iraq. Young Jesse was allegedly prepared to buy the seat. I'm not sure how that entitles him to special consideration.

[ShortnFiery]

8. But is supposedly Caroline Kennedy's birthright in NYS, aye? Burris should be seated.

[pnwmom]

11. What does the one have to do with another? Your comment seems pretty random.

What does it have to do with Duckworth?

[Occam Bandage]

14. Of course, no more random than "WHARRGARBL REID DEMANDED A WHITE,"

which also has nothing to do with Duckworth.

[ShortnFiery]

15. It's not random at all. Like Duckworth, C Kennedy has NO legislative experience and are depending

on "sentiment" to achieve the position of Senator. I suggest that we get someone in office with LEGISLATIVE experience.

[pnwmom]

16. Legislative experience is over-rated. Hillary Clinton, among others,

didn't have any, and she was a fine Senator for New York, and was re-elected by a wide margin.

[redstate_democrat]

49. Yes, relevant qualifications are always overrated. n/t

[pnwmom]

54. Legislative experience is only ONE type of relevant experience. n/t

[book_worm]

28. many fine people have gone to the senate without legislative experience and have done

very good jobs. Life experience is sometimes just as valuable or experience in the private sector. Look at the guy being sent to the senate in Colorado, he compiled a great record as head of Denver Schools. He is an accomplished person who isn't a career politician, which it sounds like you want, and can do a fine job. The founding fathers didn't want career politicians either.

[polmaven]

25. Is Governor Patterson

corrupt and under suspicion of trying to sell the Sente seat? Reid has said NO ONE appointed by Blago is acceptable.

The phone call Reid made was BEFORE the arrest. He had every right to make his preferences known to the Governor.

[Luminous Animal]

10. No need to smear Jesse in order to elevate Duckworth...

There is some indication that Jackson was cooperating with the prosecution.

[dkf]

12. Yeah since when does Asian American = white?

grr

[Ken Burch]

48. I didn't say it did. The OP said there were OTHER issues with Duckworth

She's a bland, passionless centrist hack. She didn't even run as a peace candidate in '06, even though running as a dove would've been the only logical reason for her candidacy.

Let her stay where she is, being blandly competent.

[ShortnFiery]

7. Ask Reid's wife? Oh, she might be too busy lobbying because she was Granfathered by the old rules.

Reid and many of his family are the epitome of CORRUPTION and CRONYISM. :thumbsdown:

[asthmaticeog]

21. Got a link for that? nt

[ronnykmarshall]

61. That would be nice to read.

I'm our OP will find the links and background information as quickly as possible.

[TankLV]

ahhh - nice slurs there...

I don't like Reid as much as anybody - but for his lack of DEMOCRATIC BALLS...

He is hardly "corrupt"...

I'll give you "cronyism", tho - BIGTIME...

He IS my senator, after all, unfortunately...

[EstimatedProphet]

111. No kidding? You must subscribe to the Free Republic RSS feed.

[pnwmom]

9. If he insisted that anyone should be appointed on the basis of race alone,

then he shouldn't stay on as leader.

[polmaven]

26. There is ABSOLUTELY

no indication that that is the case...NONE!

[pnwmom]

35. Of course there isn't. But that's what the title of the OP implies. n/t

[Ken Burch]

53. The first line of the OP message makes it clear that that's NOT what I'm saying

when it comes to Duckworth. So that one needs to be let go now.

[polmaven]

56. Neither of the two posts

by pnwmom, nor my post mention Duckworth at all. But are you trying to say that the title of your OP does not imply that Reid was insisting that only white candidates need apply? There is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence of that.

[Ken Burch]

57. I wasn't implying that in Duckworth's case.

Probably I could have phrased it differently.

[polmaven]

79. Like I said....

None of the 3 posts even MENTIONED Duckworth. Neither pnwmom nor I were talking about that. You WERE implying that Reid's call was racial in nature, though....Either white or Duckworth....THAT is a freaking ridiculous accusation.

[pnwmom]

59. You are continuing to imply that race -- specifically, being white -- should be

a disqualifier. That if Reid promoted the candidacy of a white person, then he should be punished.

[Ken Burch]

60. Reid was the one who appeared to make race a disqualifier.

He's the one who wanted Obama's seat to go to someone sharply to Obama's righ(like Madigan), which would also be a tragedy.

We don't need a bland technocrat in that seat.

[pnwmom]

63. No, he didn't. He just liked two candidates you don't like, who happen to be white. n/t

[Ken Burch]

64. ONE of them was white, as many posters have pointed out.

And neither of them had anything especially positive going for them. Bland, centrist establishment hacks the both of them. Either would just be the next Dixon.

[pnwmom]

65. Tammy Duckworth has plenty going for her, and she's not a hack. n/t

[Ken Burch]

66. She should stay in the job she's in. She's good there.

She's proved she's got no place in electoral politics is all I'm saying. You need strong convictions and a willingness to speak truth to power to do that. It's enough that she's doing what she's doing.

There's no reason Illinois' Senate seat should go to a silent, obedient centrist.

[pnwmom]

67. What is this "obedient" crap? She's just another submissive woman,

is that what you mean?

A submissive war hero partway through a Ph.D.

Clearly can't think for herself.

:sarcasm:

[Ken Burch]

70. Still a centrist, politically. Still not antimilitarist.

Which means she learned nothing from what happened to her. If she could still be a hawk after that, she just didn't get it.

You want a bland Senator who never will never stand up to the power structure, that's your call.

[Radical Activist]

85. "appeared to" You are so completely full of shit.

There are specific reasons why the individuals mentioned would have a difficult time in a statewide election that have nothing to do with their race. And there's no indication that Lisa Madigan is to the right of Obama. You don't know shit about Illinois politics.

You play the martyr about people "silencing" you and your parade of attacks against Obama and other Democrats. Its not that people can't handle criticism of Democrats. It's that people get tired of bullshit made up criticism and people like you who stretch the truth and twist words to go out of your way to criticize Democrats unfairly. This isn't fair or honest criticism. There's a difference between being willing to criticize a Democrat and going out of your way to always criticize Democrats at every opportunity. This is trolling. And complaining about being "silenced" is what every troll does.

[Ken Burch]

87. I've twisted nothing. The two Reid wanted ARE to Obama's right.

They're both the sorts that Rahm would want, which should automatically disqualify them if you are, in fact, a "Radical Activist".

Illinois doesn't need another Pete Dixon and that's all either of them could be.

[Radical Activist]

94. I'm from Illinois and actually have a clue.

You clearly do not. Start posting some links if you want to argue that other names mentioned are to the right of Obama. Prove it. Which people are you referring to specifically? Lisa Madigan has a solidly liberal record and there's no indication that she's to the right of Obama. You're making this shit up.

[Radical Activist]

97. Considering your threads/comments about Obama not listening to progressives

I find it ironic that you're now complaining about people being to the right of Obama. Does this mean you're you willing to concede that Obama is a liberal?

[Ken Burch]

106. Well, Obama may turn out to be ok.

I have a right to have concerns about how centrist his Cabinet has turned out to be, and I'm far from alone in expressing those concerns.

My point is, even with Obama's post-election tendency to at least appear to be determined to keep progressives out in the cold, he'd given pre-election indications of being a non-Clintonite(you, in a post several months back, said he was "close to Kucinich", an assertion that still amazes me, but whatever). Therefore, it would be a defeat and a tragedy for his seat to go to anyone who was to his right politically. Whatever you can say about Burris and Madigan(and thanks for the info on both)you'd have to put Duckworth, who STILL hasn't taken a clear anti-Iraq War stand, in the "more conservative" category. It also goes without saying that she couldn't end up to the left of her campaign positions AFTER she got elected, since nobody ever does in American politics.
Were it not for the cosmic fluke of JFK's murder, which helped open Bobby Kennedy's soul, he would have stayed to the end of his days an uptight Pat Buchanan-like Cold War zealot. It was the suffering that ennobled him. For whatever reason, her suffering hasn't ennobled Tammy. She's a competent administrator, but could you picture her ever ending up touring poverty shacks in Mississippi or marching with the UFW in California?

She's good where she is, she'd be good at the VA. She's not worthy of the nomination of a supposedly progressive political party.
She's shown she can't grow.

[pnwmom]

104. "Both the sorts that Rahm would want." According to you, that is. n/t

[Ken Burch]

109. That's why the nom in the Illinois 6th was delivered to Tammy.

There was no other reason she got it.

[Ken Burch]

101. I don't criticize Democrats at every opportunity.

I've started threads saying what I was glad Obama did during the transition(which have been somewhat few, but given the rightward bent of his Cabinet picks you can't totally blame me for that).

I support Obama and at this point plan to campaign for him for reelection.

The one thing that would stop me from that would be if your man Rahm got his way and Obama ended up being not a millimeter to Bill Clinton's left in office. You and I both know that the party would need to nominate someone else if THAT happened.

I defend the party. I defend the party's principles.

Nothing I've said has done the party any harm.

[pnwmom]

105. If Obama ends up not being further left than Bill Clinton, that still beats

anyone who will be run by the Rethugs, and there is no one -- especially no one further left -- who would have a better chance than Obama of beating them in the general election.

[Ken Burch]

108. It would mean we'd lose Congress after two years again.

The point is, why should we even think of settling for that when we clearly don't have to? If this party is to succeed in realigning the country, we have to get rid of this "we're the junior partner in the coalition" mindset.

[pnwmom]

110. I think we should not revert to the "let's cut off our noses to spite our faces"

mindset.

[pnwmom]

103. I agree. Having read Madigan's bio, I don't know why she's being portrayed

as more of a centrist than Obama. Both of them are progressives, but centrist enough to be electable.

[Ken Burch]

112. Look, having done some research, I admit that Madigan is better than I thought

Still, you can't blame me for distrusting anyone the insiders want.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Duckworth isn't white. nt

[KittyWampus]

17. stop posting FACTS, dammit. You spoil a perfectly fetid outburst.

[Occam Bandage]

20. I'm tired of Harry Reid's pro-Asian bias. Harry Reid doesn't care about white people.

Also his anti-legs bias. What, Harry, nobody with legs is electable to you?

[cali]

24. I'm tired of moronic posts like the OP

and man, is it moronic.

[Ken Burch]

32. Then again, you think Duckworth or Madigan would've been WORTH appointing

Even though they have no strong principles and no passion.

[cali]

39. Nope. I don't think Blago should have appointed anyone, but he

did. And nope, I don't think this has anything whatsofuckingever to do with race.

[Ken Burch]

42. Even though it involved vetoing TWO African American candidates?

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

31. As I pointed out in the OP.

Duckworth isn't white, but she also proved she isn't electable. And she proved that it doesn't work for the party leaders to impose a nominee.

[Blarch]

50. The OP never makes that claim.

[Ken Burch]

52. Thank you for backing me up on that.

I said Duckworth was bland, passionless and unelectable, not white. Are we ALL clear on that now?

There's no good reason she should ever run for anything again. We need to nominate Democrats instead. And those nominees should ALWAYS be chosen without the intervention of party hacks.

[book_worm]

27. Duckworth is bland, unelectable and passionless? and Jesse Jackson, who apparently was willing to

play ball with Blago to get an appointment should be the one in the senate? Too bad they didn't have a special election to settle this. I doubt JJJ could win statewide, but Duckworth could.

[Ken Burch]

30. If she couldn't win in the Sixth, that's all the proof you need that she couldn't win statewide.

Anyone else would've gained that seat in a walk. It's all her and Rahm's fault that the Sixth is still GOP.

[book_worm]

33. perhaps, but JJJ is doomed too because he would have been tied to Blago.

[Radical Activist]

98. No. That isn't true.

The 6th is not a Democratic district. Duckworth is known and will start out with support from an area of the state that isn't a Democratic stronghold.

JJJ represents one of the most Democratic districts in the state so it gives him no advantage. His dad spent the last few decades pissing off towns all over the rest of Illinois. He's a big gamble in a statewide election.

[Edweird]

29. I see no reason reason why Reid should stay based on his past inaction.

This new development won't change anything for me.....

[cali]

40. so what? seriously, these discussions about getting rid of Reid are ludicrous

we have zero influence on who the majority leader is.

[Ken Burch]

43. We worked to elect this increased Democratic majority.

You can't say that counts for nothing. They owe us, at the least, respect.

Do you really want to concede to the politicians we elect the right to ignore us? Remember, nothing good has ever come of Democratic incumbents ignoring activists and "playing it safe".

[cali]

47. the ONLY recourse we have is in the voting booth.

I'd love to see Harry dumped, but obviously his peers feel differently. And as I said, the only influence we have is our vote.

[Sebastian Doyle]

36. I'm not taking sides in Reid vs Blago

But Reid has been a spineless coward as Majority leader and the country has sufferred as a result. He has no place in a leadership role (and neither does Pelosi)

It's time for some actual DEMOCRATS who will do something to be leading both houses of Congress. Not DLC'ers. Not corporate ass kissers. Not AIPAC blowers. DEMOCRATS. Liberals. The type of people who made anything worth mentioning in this country happen.

[Ken Burch]

38. I agree there are other issues with Reid AND Pelosi, as far as that goes.

I was just raising the question of whether or not this was a tipping point.

[Sebastian Doyle]

45. I would hope Reid isn't a racist, but who knows?

He was raised to believe that blacks descended from "angels too lazy to fight Satan" and his church didn't disavow that doctrine until the late 1970's.

His opposition to Jesse Jackson Jr. could be based on other factors (i.e. him NOT being a DLC corporatist kissass) and if he's supporting Tammy Duckworth, then that would seem to downplay race as the motivation. Duckworth was a DLC-approved candidate the last time she ran for office, if I remember correctly.

[Ken Burch]

46. She was indeed DLC approved. Which means appointing her would be the same thing

as handing the seat to the GOP.

At a bare minimum, can we all agree that there was no reason to even think of giving the seat to someone who was sharply to Barack Obama's RIGHT? That we had a right to expect that the appointment would not be a loss of ground?

Tammy's blandly competent, but she really doesn't have any strong convictions on anything. If she'd been appointed, we never would've known she was there. A bland senator can't be worth having.

[JI7]

41. Duckworth is Asian

[Ken Burch]

44. If you read the OP carefully, I made it clear that I was not saying Duckworth was white.

The issue with Duckworth is that she proved she can never win an election.

[JI7]

51. Obama lost a lower office election before winning Senate and President

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

55. Duckworth bland, passionless?

Holy shit, do you ever do research before you speak?

[Ken Burch]

58. She just said what Rahm told her to say.

There was no passion at all in her campaign.

And she proved she could never be elected to anything.

Why would you still even want her?

She has no strong principles, and she didn't even break with the freaking war. Doesn't that tell you anything?

She would have been another Dixon, another person no one would have remembered.

[pnwmom]

69. By a 2% loss, she proved she "could never be elected to anything"?

This is why Rethugs are so successful at rerunning their candidates -- we give up on ours after a single loss. Don't you remember what a loser Reagan was once thought to be? A perennial candidate who would never win a Federal election?

[Ken Burch]

71. Reagan had won both governor's races by solid margins.

And he just barely lost to Ford. Bad example.

What's so special about Tammy? She learned nothing from her experiences if, after all that, she's not passionately antimilitarist.

[pnwmom]

73. Reagan also ran in the 1968 Presidential primary, where he took 3rd place,

after Nixon and Rockefeller.

I don't particularly favor Duckworth. But I am uncomfortable with the argument that another African American MUST be chosen to take Obama's seat in the U.S. Senate. If you're looking at under-representation, then women have just as good an argument as African Americans, IMO.

[Ken Burch]

74. Then it should be a progressive woman, which neither Duckworth nor Madigan are

Sorry, that's just the truth.

I can't understand how Tammy could go through what she experienced in Iraq and NOT be passionately and permanently antimilitarist. It's like she learned nothing from her own suffering. How could she NOT get it?

[PassingFair]

90. Jan Schakowsky.

She would ROCK the senate.

[Ken Burch]

95. I'd be all for that, but the hacks won't allow it.

Can't have a woman who's a REAL Democrat in the seat.

[PassingFair]

100. I know, they won't even mention her name...

but I have seen grassroots efforts to
support her for the seat...

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1468

She's just about my favorite congressperson!

[dansolo]

78. You do see the irony of your post, don't you?

Tammy Duckworth was pushed as the candidate in 2006 because the IL Democrats refused to support Christine Cegelis, who was the candidate who ran against Henry Hyde in 2004, and gave him one of his closest challenges. She did that with no party support, an anti-war platform, in a fairly Republican district. If they had thrown millions of dollars her way like they did with Tammy Duckworth, she could possibly have won the seat, and she would have been an independent, progressive voice. She at least could articulate her positions. Tammy Duckworth offered nothing but her biography.

[Ken Burch]

80. Tammy also proved that Rahm Emmanuel should not be allowed to select our candidates

We took the House IN SPITE of him.

[dansolo]

77. What research exactly is needed to recognize her lack of qualifications?

I agree completely that Duckworth is bland and passionless. What research have I done? How about living in IL-06 (which, BTW, Tammy Duckworth didn't). I was there during the election in 2006, and I was completely unimpressed with Tammy Duckworth. She was merely a pawn of Rahm Emmanuel.

[Critters2]

68. Duckworth is Asian American. FWIW. nt

[Ken Burch]

75. We've all agreed to that. I never said otherwise in the OP.

:eyes:

[MasonJar]

72. Burris was selected; he should be seated. Too bad Blago didn't

select Duckworth; it would have been interesting to see Reid field that one after opening his big mouth. Duckworth is a fine American; however, to say she can win statewide is a stretch when she lost a race for rep. So seat the dem. We, the American people, do NOT need this. Reid is the loser...not Duckworth or Burris.

[Ken Burch]

76. Agreed. Provided he agree not to run in 2010, Burris should be seated.

He's not a bad guy, but the GOP would be sure to beat him by running an ageist campaign.

[Radical Activist]

84. So you insist on a young appointee

And you're pointing the finger at others about discrimination? You're a real hypocritical piece of work.

[Ken Burch]

86. No, I said it was ok if Burris was appointed so long as he agreed not to run.

You can't seriously suggest the guy should be nominated for a full term? You know the GOP would beat him on the age thing. Seventy-plus year old freshman Senators do NOT get reelected. That's just political hardball. I wish it were otherwise.

Besides, if he is nominated, age aside, they'll beat him by Blago-bashing. Why should we tie our chances down by letting them do that?

[Radical Activist]

91. Wow.

If someone argued that we can't appoint a black nominee because they would surely be defeated in the general election you'd have a thread even more over the top than his one. So very hypocritical.

Yes, Burris can most definitely win a full term if he runs. He's an excellent candidate who has been elected statewide many times. His chanced would be much better than Jesse Jr or Rush. He would be far from the oldest person in the Senate.

[Ken Burch]

102. If he runs, I damn well hope he wins, of course.

Why do you give the party insiders in your state such a huge degree of the benefit of the doubt? And why should I trust Dems who aren't progressive insurgents, in Illinois or anywhere else? The bland, gray dreary ones like Dixon don't do us much good.

I loved Paul Simon. I admired Harold Washington.

[backscatter712]

92. The only people suggesting the controversy over Burris has anything to do at all with his race...

are Blago, and idiots fooled by Blago.