Any munitions experts here who can identify the bombs or missiles

[ConsAreLiars]

that explode a few hundred feet above ground and then send what appear to be multiple fireballs toward the ground? I've seen many of those via CNN night vision cameras and and in daylight coverage of the attack, but nothing on the TV machine has explained or even commented on them.

Thanks in advance.

(edit typo)

[Political Tiger]

1. I was wondering what those were too. n/t

[Pavulon]

2. Lots of Stuff does that.

some shell or bomb dropping submunitions or just popping above ground. I have seen 155 do it on a range, fucking scary thing. That was 10 years ago (more actually), no sub munitions just a big bang, even at distance.

Anything dropping bomblets or mines could cause that, but have not seen it.

[ConsAreLiars]

3. Thanks for that information.

Maybe someone what saw that footage could be more specific. It was a high proportion of what was shown, so "malfunctions" doesn't seem a likely explanation, and since they left a smoke/heat trail, as if they were either propelled or on fire, they didn't seem likely to be cluster bombs, since I believe those are just passively dispersed by the force of the initial above-ground detonation of the carrier device and would not leave smoke trails.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. I have not been able to see videos tonight

But so far there has been no indication of cluster munition/sub munition use in Gaza. After all the bad PR about its use in Lebanon, I would not expect Israel to use any. Some weapons use ejection charges for sub munitions, but their sub-munitions weapons are easy to identify by the blanket of small explosions. That would not be true for mine dispensing ordnance. Something else I would not expect to see used in Gaza

You may be seeing air bursts by the artillery. Its a common fuse setting. and the smoke trails remnants of the detonation. The shrapnel is moving much faster than the smoke.

[ConsAreLiars]

6. That seems like one possibility, but the one discrepancy

is that the (what appear to be) fireballs are not disconnected from the smoke trail. You can see a couple of example at http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/01/vo.gaza.border.explosions.cnn

Not as clear as some I've seen, but maybe enough to help you help me.

[Fireweed247]

5. Do you mean the White Phosphorous?

White Phosphorus: Israel fires artillery shells into Gaza
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/172089-White-Phosphorous-Israel-fires-artillery-shells-into-Gaza

FLASHBACK - Israel Drops White Phosphorus Bombs, Littlest Victims Suffer
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/DU_Israel.htm

[RandiFan1290]

18. That is it

I saw a few of those going off last night on CNN but they exploded in the air and rained down on the ground.

[Adsos Letter]

7. I had the same question as you ConsAreLiars...

and I suspect "hardcore progressive" is correct...It has been over 30 years since my field artillery service on 155sp's, but airbursts were often called for when attempting to hit ground troops seeking cover in trenches, holes, rubble, etc.

IIRC, the standard setting was for a 10 meter detonation above the ground, and some of those bursts seemed much higher than that...but munitions have changed significantly over the last 30 years.

Edit: Happy New Year, btw...

[ConsAreLiars]

10. I'm leaning slightly toward that explanation,

but as in the video and description I provided in post #6, I am still unsure. Maybe watch if it might help. But, as you say, times and circumstances change and the elevation difference may just be tactics. The smoke trails still remain the core of my question.

And a big OT btw. Thanks so much for your photos of Romania and the Deva Roman castle ruins in particular. Hitching got me a ride with a (very-slow-driving) trucker who stopped to raid a tomato field for a shared lunch. I signaled/mimed that I'd get jailed for that, he insisted the tomatoes belonged to the people. He later insisted we stop and climb up those ruins for the view of his home town. He gave me a night's lodging with his family before driving me on to Bucharest for a night on the town with his buds. Nice memories, walking together holding hands, my only man-kisses. Lovely people and treasured memories.


(edit very slightly)

[Adsos Letter]

12. You are more than welcome!

Romania is a beautiful land, with many beautiful people, and a very troubled past and present. We have kept in very close touch with a woman we met there who volunteered to act as a kind of guide/interpreter for us. She is now in St. Moritz, Switzerland, working through a part of her residency as a physician, so we will visit her sometime this year, possibly in the Fall.

I just haven't been motivated to do any photography lately, and I really miss being involved with the photo forum. I am planning a trip up to Fort Ross sometime before school starts again; if it is foggy it should be very photogenic, as it sits directly on the Northern California coast.

I hope your year is full of peace and contentment.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. I wish every person on the planet had the same chance to travel

on the ground, not in isolated tour bubbles, and just get to meet one another. Just a fantasy, but I am sure that the support for mass murder of "the other" would drop, and resistance to such slaughters would increase. A while back I did a little essay on "My best friend" who was someone I never had one word or life experience in common ( http://journals.democraticunderground.com/ConsAreLiars/15 ). He (and they) taught me.

And best wishes to all of us for the next years. At least the US will have a President that is not an utterly loathsome, vile, depraved, stupid, fratboy child-of-privilege, sadistic, corporatist cheerleader, ignoramus, shithead.

[Adsos Letter]

8. I looked at the videos you posted...

what I saw looked more like airforce ordnance, or possibly 175mm arty...way too big for anything less, I think.

[Adsos Letter]

9. Here is a link to an airburst demo...

the site says "arty airburst;" it looks more like a heavy mortar (120mm?) or maybe a 105mm...I don't think it is much larger than that.

http://www.splodetv.com/video/usmc-artillery-direct-fire-air-burst

[ConsAreLiars]

11. That is clearly not the same.

I don't think I'm being obtuse, but I don't feel I yet know what those high altitude blasts and the whatever stuff they sent down toward the Gazans consisted of or were intended to do. But what the hell, I've got a lifetime of unanswered questions I can live with, and this is just one more, and a minor one.

[Adsos Letter]

13. You aren't being obtuse at all.

What the munitions are I can't identify; however, most are designed to utilize blast/concussion effects, or to set fire to things...or any combination of the above.

Aside from the actual structural damage caused, much of the damage from bursting-type rounds is done by the effect of the blast turning whatever is in the affected area into a kind of natural shrapnel, the actual shrapnel from the round itself is somewhat limited by the actual physical size of the casing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuse

The primary purpose of airborne munitions is to cause damage by concussion. Since WWII, it's been known that a munition that explodes above its target causes more damage than one that detonates on the ground next to it. Draw a straight line on a piece of paper, then draw a fan of diverging lines above it. This type of detonation effectively limits the munition to a 180 degree area. Most of the concussive force is absorbed by the ground that the munition hits, thus limiting the damage to the immediate vicinity of the burst.

Exploding a munition above the ground exposes much more of the target area to the force of the rapid expansion of the explosive compound contained in the munition.

That's why the A-bombs used in WWII didn't explode on the ground, but 2300 feet above it. Many more structures are exposed to that rapid expansion.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. That, the intention to cause maximum civilian deaths, might explain the above ground detonation,

but not the fireballs that seemed to be sent down after the initial detonation. I'm still ignorant about what those images showed.

(edit tiny typo)

[ellisonz]

17. What I think you probably saw was a parachute flare being used to illuminate targets...

...probably fired from a howitzer for the purpose of assisting infantry, helicopters, or surveillance.

video (about half way through): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRh9ZRX8bhw

[spanone]

19. i'm sure whatever they are, brilliant scientists have formulated them to maximize killing

this is what humans do best