quebec orders immigrants to learn french or leave

[undercutter2006]

Starting in January, immigrants applying to come to Quebec will be required to sign a declaration pledging to learn French and acknowledging that they understand men and women have equal rights, and political and religious powers are separate.

Anyone who refuses to sign the declaration will not have their application accepted, Quebec Immigration Minister Yolande James said yesterday.

"Coming to Quebec is not a right, it is a privilege," Ms. James said.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=373fbde6-5a7a-4c87-bd5e-4f2c48dbbb51

discuss

[Occam Bandage]

1. A bit silly, and I think aimed more at preserving French in the face of English

than at ensuring immigrants assimilate.

[Sultana]

French is a beautiful language

that's all ;-)

[pnwmom]

25. Equal rights for women is silly? Separation of Church and State is silly?

Do you know there are people pushing for Sharia law in Canada?

[Occam Bandage]

35. Let's think. Given the sentence,

"this is a bit silly, and I think aimed more at preserving French in the face of English," do you believe it is more likely that when I say "this," I am referring to:

A: The part of the OP about making immigrants learn French?
B: The part of the OP about making immigrants declare their respect for women's rights?

If you're having trouble thinking it through, I suggest you go back and look at the part I helpfully bolded for you. If you're still stumped, try looking at the fifth bolded word.

[pnwmom]

38. You said "a bit silly" which appeared to refer to the whole law.

And I think the whole law is aimed at preserving modern French-Canadian culture, which includes, among other things, the language, belief in equality of the sexes, and separation of church and state.

[jazzjunkysue]

33. I'm there alot, and they have to pass laws to preserve the french or they'll lose it.

There's nothing new about this. In Quebec all the signs must be in french, menus, billboards.

I like it.

Trouble really is, they won't stop smoking. Real drawback to the french restaurants there.

Oh, and the really insipid canadian "pop" singers. If you were in a coma in the 1980's, you can catch up on your "pop" music top 40 in Quebec.

But the cheese!!!!

[Skink]

2. We require English here do we not?

[Fire1]

3. Wee wee monsieur

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Not anywhere near the way Qubecois require French

I was there a while back, and at baggage claim one of the vrai laine was sneering at the Americans. I pointed out to her, in French, that she was being rude...you should have seen the look on her face and others nearby found it quite amusing.

[Cid_B]

46. I love that...

I got a couple of Germans that way as well.

[Darth_Kitten]

48. I spoke english when I was in Montreal a few months ago......

airport staff were very friendly.

[Quantess]

17. Not necessarily.

There are places in the US where you can get by without speaking any English. You can find people who have been living in the US for years, yet know barely any English.

[Occam Bandage]

20. But such is the case in every country with an immigrant population.

Modern American immigrants learn English more quickly, thoroughly, and universally than immigrants have at any point in this nation's history. Our laws don't demand it, but our culture and (more importantly) our jobs do.

[Quantess]

23. No argument here. (no text)

[DCKit]

32. My MIL does not speak English and I don't speak Spanish....

yet she became a citizen last year.

Somehow, I have no problem with that, and neither did the immigration Nazis who made her wait (and wait and wait) for her paperwork.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Apperently you have never been to Miami

[Dorian Gray]

42. No we do not

there is no official US language.

[Amonester]

4. North America: 300,000,000 (+) speak English

Québec: 7,000,000 (+) speak French (and most of them speak, or at least try to speak, English too)

They want to protect their language.

No need to be a math genius to understand that...

[Occam Bandage]

5. Right. French is not a necessary language in Canada.

Any immigrant coming to Quebec would be best served to spend most all his or her language-learning time and effort working on English mastery, as that would be useful in virtually any job or any college in any province, as well as in America. French, on the other hand, would only be of limited use in one province.

Quebecois are enacting yet another language-preservation law. Perhaps Canadian French will survive the century because of their efforts.

[Amonester]

11. They can listen to radio stations, watch dozens of TV stations,

read hundreds of publications at Public Libraries, go to College and University, go to Church, get involved in Community groups, read newspapers, etc. all exclusively in English all they want, but if they ever want to officially become permanent Canadian citizens Living in Quebec, they'll have to know just enough French to pass the exams. That's about it.

Of course, if they don't like it, they still have the choice of moving to 9 other provinces, or a few other territories.

No problemo.

[Darth_Kitten]

49. Or like to think they do..........

huh?
eh?
What's that?
Uh?
Yous people think you know everything.
You don't know nuthin....
I seen everything.

:eyes:

[ColbertWatcher]

6. LOL! Those French-Canadian Quebecois! LOL!

It's been a while since the last time they got in the news. Good to hear they're still out there doing their thing (whatever that is)!

LOL!

[Amonester]

7. Madame La Ministre Yolande James

QuebecoisE

(GLBT People Can Marry too)

LOL

[JackRiddler]

13. OMG

[Sultana]

26. Wut, there are black people in Canada/Quebec?

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

:P

[Amonester]

30. Elle est belle

n'est-ce pas?

J'aime Yolande ! :loveya:

B-)

[Gwendolyn]

8. This effort's aimed specifically at assimilating immigrants.

Most immigrants to Quebec come from French speaking countries anyway, so it's more of an effort to ensure that the North American customs Quebecers espouse and value are preserved. just like the article says.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. More Qubecois nonsense. I don't have much respect for the vrai laine idiots.

[Amonester]

12. And That's Hardcore Progressive?

How? (Explain)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Beacuse the vrai laine are bigots...and opposing bigotry is a progressive thing to do

And I am well aware that not all the Quebecois are into the vrai laine thing

[Amonester]

16. IMHO, calling a group of people you know nothing about

'bigots' has nothing to do with anything progressive.

But you can have all the fun you want.

[Gwendolyn]

18. The new pledge has nothing to do with language.

It's aimed at muslim immigrants, which is why it stresses separation of state and religion, and focuses on western customs and values. Not sure if people would consider that bigoted or not.

[Eryemil]

21. If that's the case then it is SPECIALLY good.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. What makes you think I know nothing about them

My late wife was vrai laine, but bought into none of their nonsense.

[Amonester]

29. What nonsense?

French people being considered like second-class cheap-labor that could be easily exploited by the ruling Anglos for a couple of centuries, as they tried to assimilate them (sometimes 'violently' like in... 'tort*re' or else), who still refuse to lose their culture in an ocean of English all around them?

That's not nonsense to a lot of good people (including me).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. That is not what I know of the vrai laine bubbas

Instead I have personally heard and seen the vrai laine crowd talk about who is and is not really vrai laine due to their political views, their willingness to allow others into Quebec, and more importantly (to them)into the upper levels of Quebec society. I have also found them to be aggressively racist against people of color and aboriginal peoples. They seem to see themselves as above the rest of the Quebecois. I am NOT painting all French-Canadians with that...I spent way to many years married to one to do that, and still visit there frequently. I am not ignoring past history either, but the vrai laine do not seem like the right crowd to following either.

To those who are not following this, the term vrai laine describes a small subset of the Quebecois who believe they are the "True Wool" of Quebec. IMO they are not representative of French-Canadians or even of the populace of Quebec, but they think they are. In their presumption of leadership they do not take well to outsiders etc. So yes, I consider them non-progressive at best

[Amonester]

34. Yes, there are many of those bigots there, like everywhere, sadly.

But they are a minority.

There are other 'vrai laine' who aren't like that at all.

It depends on what the definition of 'vrai laine' is.

That's why using such a qualifier doesn't sound progressive at all, in my very humble opinion.

Being a little more 'careful' about the words we 'use' as progressives is important.

[David Ricardo]

10. It seems like a silly law

If everyone speaks French anyways, isn't the incentive there to learn French even without government edict.

I guess freedom of speech does not include the tongue it's said in?

[pnwmom]

28. Is equal rights for women silly? And separation of church and state?

I think it's a good idea to make sure immigrants are aware of the law in Canada on these issues.

[Darth_Kitten]

50. Exactly........

It's hard enough to ensure the native born in Canada know the laws of the land, so I have no problems with immigrants having to be aware of them as well. :)

[SidDithers]

22. Their house...

they get to make the rules.

Sid

[girl gone mad]

24. Good for them.

Really.

[Mind_your_head]

27. Oui!

Not to be confused with "Wii"

Mon dieu!

[Joe the Revelator]

36. not worth it

self delete

[warren pease]

37. I'd learn an African "click" language if that's my ticket out of this third-world shithole oligarchy

Note the wording about gender equality and getting gawd the hell out of non-religious activity:

"...acknowledging that they understand men and women have equal rights, and political and religious powers are separate."

I'd learn Venusian if it would bump my score high enough to finally to grasp those precious landed immigrant documents and ID cards in my hands. I've been trying for years and and years and either I lack sufficient points at that time or I'm getting diverted by some shitheel android and his dedication to some American institutional bullshit.

I can't quite imagine how liberating it must be to cross that border without having to return, but I'd sure like to find out. Two heartfelt raised middle fingers, a hearty "merci beaucoup" and multiple hugs for the Canadian Immigration angels, tears of joy so profound, relief like a drowning man's ecstatic confusion at finding himself on the surface gulping air after losing all hope. I don't remember anything in my past that measures up to evacuating this banana dictatorship.

Meanwhile, here in Dumbfuckistan, in the tribal division where the perpetually vindictive whack jobs hang out; the feverish, hollow-eyed fanatics who trade life's rich experiences for a fantasy book describing some composite fairy tale creature called Cheeeeeezzuuuuuuzzzzzzzz-uh, my marriage is supposed to be hanging by a thread because last week in some place about 3,000 miles away, a same-sex couple tied the knot in an actual wedding ceremony, not some half-assed "civil ceremony," in the warm and loving company of dozens of elated friends who were momentarily privileged to just forget which country they happened to be in.

I'm also supposed to believe that the founders were christians, even though they were actually deists and ideological disciples of the very secular European Enlightenment. But the religious horseshit keeps piling up ... the Constitution is divinely inspired, the earth is about 6,200 years old, Darwin was full of shit and the rapture is really a giant vacuum cleaner with equipped with advanced profile recognition and video analytics software that tells the gigantic janitor which ones to suck up and which to leave behind.

Just a few hundred miles and several centuries ahead of our multiplying collection of religiously insane fundie loons and sexist, wife-beating, bible-believing imbecilic bigots who really would have been more comfortable in medieval times. Entertained by frequent witch burnings and drownings and stonings and eviscerations and -- for the lucky ones -- only losing an arm or leg to a slashing broadsword wielded by, of course, a dedicated man of gawd and fearless defender of the faith.

Gawddamm these fuckers make me want to puke all over their lizard skin boots, then beat them into a coma when my stomach settles. That couldn't possibly be a crime, could it?

There... that's better... I may actually get some sleep tonight after all.


wp

[orleans]

39. sleep tight. sweet dreams. n/t

[area51]

44. I was going to say ...

... learning French would be a small price to pay if it allowed immigration into a first-world country (in this case a province) with guaranteed healthcare. :bounce:

[L0oniX]

45. I'm learning Klingon right now so I can move off this planet.

[MineralMan]

40. Zut, alors!

Merde!

There...now...do I qualify?

[Sebastian Doyle]

43. So does that mean there are Freeperish websites in Quebec

Populated by morans whose French is as terrible as the English used by Freepers in the US?

[JustAnotherGen]

47. Ironic

I've spent a great deal of time in France, ld relationship with a French man from Lyon. . .

The French look down their nose at the way their Little Cousins speak French! :rofl: Ironic I tell ya! Ironic!


On another note, I went to U. on the Canadian border in the early 90's and there were skirmishes over the preservation and indepence of P.Q. 17 years ago. This is nothing new.

I also think there may be a bit of the same backlash against 'Muslim' immigrants that we've seen recently in France, The Netherlands, Austria, etc. etc. - the whole fear of "Islamization" of Europe. Looks like it just spread the Americas. Especially in regards to the 'equality of women'. Next up? Outlawing the wearing of burquas (sp? forgive me if it's incorrect)in publicly funded schools and a crackdown on Islamic practices (forced marriages of young girls, female genital mutilation, etc. etc.).

Honest? I'd like to see a strong hard and direct law outlawing FGM in the US too - but that won't happen. We're permissive in the face of Religious Extremism.

[iverglas]

53. just fyi

Next up? Outlawing the wearing of burquas (sp? forgive me if it's incorrect)in publicly funded schools and a crackdown on Islamic practices (forced marriages of young girls, female genital mutilation, etc. etc.).

Honest? I'd like to see a strong hard and direct law outlawing FGM in the US too - but that won't happen. We're permissive in the face of Religious Extremism.


It shouldn't be necessary -- since there are laws against wounding, assault, etc. -- but you got your wish re FGM a while back.

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/fgm-prov-t.htm

Legislation: Bill S.1030 (the "Federal Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation Act of 1995") provides for the following:
"(...) Sec.2. Title 18 amendment. (a) in general: Chapter 7 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end of the following new section:
116. Female genital mutilation:
(a) except as provided in subsection (b), whoever knowingly circumcises, excises, or infibulates the whole or any part of the labia majora or labia minora or clitoris of another person who has not attained the age of 18 years shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b) a surgical operation is not a violation of this section if the operation is:
(1) necessary to the health of the person on whom it is performed, and is performed by a person licensed in the place of its performance as a medical practitioners; or
(2) performed on a person in labor or who has just given birth and is performed for medical purposes connected with that labor or birth by a person licensed in the place it is performed as a medical practitioner, midwife, or person in training to become such a practitioner of midwife.
(c) in applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any belief on the part of that or any other person that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual.
(d) whoever knowingly denies to any person medical care or services or otherwise discriminates against any person in the provision of medical care or services, because:
(1) that person has undergone female circumcision, excision, or infibulation; or
(2) that person has requested that female circumcision, excision, or infibulation be performed on any person; shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both."

The above-mentioned law provides also that The Secretary of Health and Human services shall carry out the following activities:
"(1) compile data on the number of females living in the united states who have been subjected to female genital mutilation (whether in the united states or in their countries of origin), including a specification of the number of girls under the age o f 18 who have been subjected to such mutilation.
(2) identify communities in the united states that practice female genital mutilation, and design and carry out outreach activities to educate individuals in the communities on the physical and psychological effects of such practice. Such outreach activities shall be designed and implemented in collaboration with representatives of the ethnic groups practicing such mutilation and with representatives of organizations with expertise in preventing such practice.
(3) develop recommendations for the education of students of schools of medicine and osteopathic medicine regarding female genital mutilation and complications arising from such mutilation. Such recommendations shall be disseminated to such schools."

I'm not sure about the US, but some countries legislate against removing minor girls from the country for this purpose, as well.

I recently read a Canadian research paper on forced marriage in Canada, detailing efforts by community groups to rescue girls and women about to be coerced into marriage or already in coerced marriages. It is a difficult issue to address because of the very complex issues in the social and family relationships in question.

Burqas? Well, legislating against cultural practices (that are not intrinsically harmful) takes you into very muddy waters, and is as likely to be counterproductive as to be beneficial.

[iverglas]

51. and the TRUE head line was: "Learn French, Quebec orders immigrants"

For some reason, you decided to write your own, and came up with a completely false statement.

NO ONE is going to be "ordered to leave" anywhere.

The statement immigrants are to be asked to sign is to be signed BEFORE an immigrant visa is issued, i.e. BEFORE the individual enters Canada.

There really is a huge difference here, and I have no idea how you could have interpreted even that article as meaning that immigrants would be "ordered to leave".

(By the way, Quebec has authority over applications for permanent residence where the stated destination is Quebec, under a federal-provincial agreement and as any other province could also have if it chose, but it has NO authority over removals from Canada, which are a purely federal matter.)


My only comment would be to point out that Quebec, like its French parent, is extremely fond of bureaucracy and rules. One of the three "distinct" features of Quebec is its civil law, codified in the Civil Code of Québec. (After the conquest by Britain in the 18th century, the people of Quebec were allowed to keep their language, religion and civil law. This was pretty much a first in history.)

The common law, the tradition of England, English Canada and the United States, is regarded as an evolving set of guidelines. The droit civil, of continental Europe and Quebec, is an effort to codify all the rules to cover all eventualities. If you make a rule, there will be no problems, seems to be the philosophy.

There is also the very particular French concept of identity and "citizenship", which does have currency in Quebec and is on the ascendancy with efforts like these. It structures the relationship between individual and society/state in such a way that there are no intermediaries, no other legitimate allegiances, no other legitimate identities than "citizen". That concept has merits of its own, but it is different from the Canadian model of diversity and multiculturalism, in which cultural / ethnic / religious groups do intermediate between individual and society, and allegiance to those groups is regarded as legitimate and also as beneficial in securing individual adherence to broader social values.

I see this effort in that light -- an outgrowth of the "French" love of rule-making and model of citizenship. I do agree that this particular outcropping is patronizing and even insulting to newcomers. But more than that, I think it derives from the misguided beliefs that things can be fixed by making rules and that adherence to the broader society's values can be secured by delegitimizing adherence to identity groups. Securing newcomers' adherence to a society's values is a complex process, and I am in the camp that believes it is best achieved by interaction -- an interaction in which both sides are affected and both sides may change -- and not by one side telling the other side how it is.

Newcomers are not treated neutrally by the host society. Dress them up in the local wool and teach them the language, and demand that they wear it and speak it, and they are still going to be different. At present, they have no assurance that their differences will be valued or even treated neutrally, even where those differences are entirely neutral in terms of the host society's values: their cooking smells funny, their accent is hard to understand, etc. -- and they suffer discrimination and exclusion in a thousand big and little ways because of it. Small wonder they would object to being lectured about values -- equality being the biggie that Canada as a whole, and Quebec, pride our/themselves on.

[Bluebear]

52. Freeper Quebecois: PARLAY FRANSAY!!!!!!!111

[DRoseDARs]

54. I wasn't aware Quebec had become an independant country. I bet Canada wasn't aware either.

Time to cut them loose and allow them to become a failed country all on their own without dragging the rest of Canada with them. :shrug:

[iverglas]

55. oddly enough, that would be because it hasn't

When you are totally ignorant of a subject, it is often wise to avoid speaking about it in public.

My post just above yours might help you a little.

In Canadian federalism, provinces may exercise jurisdiction over immigration jointly with the federal government. Quebec has chosen to do so. Under a long-standing federal-provincial agreement (this is a mechanism widely used in Canadian governance), Quebec has the authority to select immigrants destined for Quebec.

The federal government selects immigrants destined for other provinces, which have not opted to exercise that jurisdiction, but other provinces do specify certain criteria such as occupations for which qualified applicants get points.

But hey, your concern is noted.



typo fixed

[DRoseDARs]

56. You could have posted that without being as snotty as the Quebecois.

But hey, your information is duly noted. :)