Is the Israeli attack justified - WJ this morning

[malaise]

Attack? Is that what this is -looks like CSpin is crazy.
Some great calls.

[Fumesucker]

1. Absolutely, the Palestinians still have rocks to throw. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Of course, because that is all they throw.

:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

5. If that's all they had, that would be sufficient..

Which was my point, thanks for helping me drive it home.

A rock can be a deadly weapon, just ask Goliath.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. So, dead Israelis are a joke to you?

[varkam]

9. I don't think that was their point...

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Well, then their point was...?

[varkam]

17. I think the point that the poster was trying to make...

is that the show of force by Israel is not in proportion.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Then that should have been the statement.

Even so, what would be in proportion? Can you define it? Perhaps Israel should contact Iran and Syria for some crappy "firecrackers" and shoot those into Gaza? Think that would be better?

[varkam]

30. I didn't make the point, so I can only speculate as to what the poster's response would be.

For my money, I'm not sure what would be in proportion. I am pretty sure, however, what is not in proportion - viz. the siege that Israel is currently undertaking.

[Fumesucker]

14. Who said I was joking?

I have a slingshot I could kill someone with, it will put a hole right through 3/4 particle board and would do the same to a skull.

And it's nowhere near as powerful as the type of slingshot David took Goliath out with.

It's the very idea of Palestinians fighting back against their fate that bothers some people I think.

Just like the idea of Jews fighting back against their fate bothers other people.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Then make your point.

You are saying the Israelis should kill all Gazans? Israelis intend to kill all Gazans? Palestinians intend to kill all Jews?

[Fumesucker]

21. I'm not Cassandra, I can't predict the future..

But the general outline of the I/P conflict was fairly predictable in 1947, two proud and stubborn peoples thrown into conflict over a quite small area of not particularly desirable land.

Add in the religious issues and conflict was all but inevitable, both sides pride themselves on their stubbornness, how could it not become an existential conflict?

Israel's problem that other colonial powers haven't had to deal with in the past is that European opinions on how wogs should be treated has shifted a great deal in the last hundred years and the rapidity and ease of communications has increased by many orders of magnitude.

Rightly or wrongly Israel is seen as a colonial power by much of the world, even by many in Europe.

To a big extent perception is reality. People certainly react to perception as if it were reality.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Well, seems you had no real point.

I think you are wrong that both people pride themselves on "stubbornness." Neither Jews nor Arabs are renowned for that quality.

The reality is that the ones who created Israel, the European powers, and their "descendants," don't want Israel there anymore. Too bad! Their anti-Semitism and racism led them to this, and their continued anti-Semitism and racism leads them to this now. The only difference, they can't be as racist because the "brown people" hold the "gold" (oil).

[Fumesucker]

23. Four Jews, five opinions is the old joke I think..

Being opinionated largely is a sign of stubbornness.

Arabs are well known for feuding and "honor" killings, what else is that but a form of stubbornness?

Funny how you can see racism in everyone except Israelis.

[LynnTheDem]

18. Even from you, that's quite stunning.

:wow:

[Behind the Aegis]

19. You don't seem to mind.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. We know Hamas hasn't satisfied theirs...

...their are still Jews breathing in Israel and Palestinians to use as shields.

Evil? I doubt "evil" even enters the equation.

[fla nocount]

40. Hamas, the PLO, British Governors, how many fingers...

do you have left to shake at the "bad" guys. You'll look ridiculous shaking your pinkie.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. And you look ridiculous making things up as truth.

I guess, for the likes of you, there is and can only be one "bad" guy.

[fla nocount]

48. You really need a new spiel, or shpil in Yiddish,

Check the avatar, you're all bad guys in my eyes. Likes of me? You're laughable in your insularity... fool. We are all, even you, two-armed, two-legged, oxygen-dependent carbon constructs sharing this planet. Get a grip on reality and you can leave all this me/them behind you. WE will all, each and everyone escape this together or none of us will escape at all. Leave the group that perpetuates divisions that don't exist and join mankind's only hope for a future. Archaic is an ugly word...especially when explaining it to grandchildren living in a compromised future.

Leave ugly behind you. There is only one Source and Abraham didn't hold the patent.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. And you are full of it.

Your hate is unbecoming of anyone, even you.

[leftchick]

24. I believe Israel's actions are quite clear

history has shown the extremes that rogue nations will go to, to achieve their aims.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe the Revelator]

32. Yes the Israeli bloodlust...pay no attention to the continuous rocket attacks against civilians

perpetrated by Hamas. Pay no attention to the fact that Hamas has vowed to "wipe Israel off the map", yes, those are just inconvenient details.

[fla nocount]

41. I thought that the "wipe off the map" thingy was a poor...

interpretation of something that the puppet Iranian President said about Israel being a flawed and unsustainable concept that would cease to exist because it would collapse under its own weight. I tend to lean towards this interpretation because "wipe off the map" sounds uniquely Joe Six-Pack.

[StudsT]

3. is the ongoing (decades old) occupation and oppression of Palestinians justified?

doubt we would ever see that question asked by our M$M.

and so it goes...

StudsT

[malaise]

4. Don't look for that question

it was never asked fir the indigenous Indians
and the same right wing interests in America supported slavery. Interestingly lots of Jews were against slavery in America.

[cali]

7. The question is OK- if rather simplistic.

and as always, there are some great calls and some horrifying ones. There was the whacko women with her biblical bullshit about how Israel can do no wrong, and then there was the get rid of all the Jews guy.

[chimpymustgo]

11. "Thank GOD President Bush is standing by Israel!!" Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

Calls ran heavily AGAINST this slaughter.

[malaise]

13. Poor stupid woman

She doesn't need man's laws - she's a bible freak. Now go read yours. :D

[Double T]

16. Israel needs to get the waring ultra neocons out of its government..........

as we are doing with our government. Only THEN will there be any chance for genuine peace.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. That won't happen as long as rockets fly and the main Hamas goal is the destruction of Israel

[Double T]

31. It's ALWAYS the OTHER GUY that starts the conflicts, according to Israel.

Cut the blame game and engage in meaningful peace.

[Joe the Revelator]

33. You can't engage in peace if you're the only party willing to give it a chance

Daily rocket attacks against civilians by Hamas is not the road to peace.

[Malikshah]

34. Please read up on the timeline of events before you post.

It will help the argument.

Right now, it's just not working.

At all.

[Joe the Revelator]

35. I am well aware of the timeline of events

I don't need you to teach me.

[Malikshah]

36. Why, pray tell, the obviously false statement to which I responded then.

Ah, never mind.

Too tired to play that old game again.

[Joe the Revelator]

37. If you don't want to play, then why even respond

Just keep living in your tiny blog bubble, reading sites like "the eletronic infatada" and ignoring the real facts on the ground.

[Malikshah]

38. Y'see. It's all a game to some. Blathering about "real facts", making false accusations and

assumptions.

Using red herring statements akin to "looking for someone to negotiate peace with", or never misses and opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Is there some magic rhetoric machine out there that spits the drivel out?

The line of argument I initially responded too was patently false, misleading, and smacked of no real knowledge of the longer history much less the history of the last few months.

It was patented robotic speech, regurgitated like so much stale vomit.

To the dead Israelis and Palestinians, it is not a game of pseudo-forensics. Their lives deserve more than that.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[Joe the Revelator]

39. Ok lets talk timelines

We'll start with this year:

January, 2008 A tour of the Middle East by US President George Bush apparently fails to achieve support for US Middle East policy goals. However, Israelis and Palestinians pledge to negotiate seriously regarding "core issues" such as Jerusalem and Palestinian refugees. Israeli government issues contradictory declarations regarding status of a building freeze in West Bank settlements and areas of East Jerusalem annexed in the Six Day war.
January 20, 2008 After Israel cuts Gaza fuel supplies in retaliation for rocket and sniper fire from Gaza, Gaza power plant, supplying abut 20% of Gaza's electricity, is shut down by Hamas, precipitating condemnation of Israel and international outcry.
January 23, 2008 After months of preparation, Hamas blasts holes in Gaza/Rafah barrier, allowing hundreds of thousands of Gazans to enter Egypt freely. Border breach is partly closed by Egyptians by January 28, but reopened by Hamas and eventually resealed by Egypt..
Feb, 13, 2008 Assassination of Hezbollah terror mastermind Imad Moughnieh in Damascus.
Feb 27-Mar 3 Large scale Israeli raid in Gaza kills over 100.
March 6 Terror attack by Palestinian in Jerusalem's Yeshivat Merkaz Harav kills 8.
May 9, 2008 Hezbollah takes over Sa'ad Hariri owned media, puts Hariri under house arrest in Beirut, threatens coup, after Lebanese government tries to dismiss an official belonging to Hezbollah, and close down private Hezbollah communications network. Lebanese army, government eventually "solve" crisis by capitulating to all Hezbollah demands in in "compromise" selttement.
June 19 Israel-Hamas truce in Gaza.
June 29 Israel-Hezbollah prisoner swap deal approved.
July 1, 2008 Three Israelis killed and over 50 wounded in a bulldozer attack in Jerusalem .Police shot and killed the militant attacker.
July 11, 2008 Border patrolman Lance Corporal David Chriqui, 19, of Rishon Lezion, critically wounded in a militant attack in the Old City of Jerusalem. He died July 23.
July 22, 2008 Copycat bulldozer attack in Jerusalem wounds 16 Israelis.
July 28, 2008 Fatah arrests about 50 Hamas activists in West Bank.
July 30, 2008 Hamas forces in Gaza detained 160 supporters of the rival Fatah movement after three explosions, including one that killed six people, a Palestinian human rights group says
Aug. 4, 2008 Israel permits Fatah loyalists fleeing Gaza repression by Hamas (Hilles clan) to cross to Gaza
Aug. 17, 2008 Israeli cabinet approves release of 200 jailed Palestinians.
Aug. 23, 2008 Two boats of volunteer activists break Gaza blockage for the first time. Israel permits them to arrive and depart.
August 2008 Gaza doctors affiliated with Fatah begin strike against Hamas gov't.
Sept. 5, 2008 Israel allows shipment of 1,000 rifles plus ammunition for Palestinian National Authority forces.
Sept 16, 2008 At least 11 killed in internecine Palestinian fighting in Gaza.
Sept 17, 2008 In primaries held after PM Olmert forced to resign over financial improprieties, Tzipi Livni elected to head Kadima party in Israel, form new government.
Sept 21, 2008 PM Olmert announces intent to resign.
Sept 22, 2008 15 hurt in Jerusalem when Palestinian motorist stages car attack, running over pedestrians.
Oct. 20, 2008 IDF demolishes three illegal West Bank outposts.
Oct 23, 2008 IDF authorizes 500 additional PA police in Hebron
Oct 23, 2008 86-year-old Avraham Ozeri killed and a police officer was moderately wounded in Jerusalem by a stabbing attack launched by 21-year-old Mohammad Elmadan, from a village near Bethlehem.
Oct 26, 2008 Tzipi Livni announces she cannot form a coalition because of Shas party financial demands and opposition to concessions in Jerusalem, calls for new elections.
Nov 4, 2008 Barack Obama elected President of the United States. Arab world hopes for radical change in United States Middle East policy.

IDF discovers tunnel into Israel being built from Gaza, launches incursion to destroy it. Six Hamas gunmen killed. Hamas and others launch about 35 rockets into Israel in the coming days and IDF retaliates. Operations continue for several days. Both sides insist they want the truce to continue.
Nov 9, 2008 Quartet meeting at Sharm el Sheikh reaffirms support for Annapolis peace negotiations process.

Hamas cancels participation in the Egyptian hosted Palestinian unification meeting that was to begin in Cairo.
Dec. 19, 2008 Hamas announces that the "lull" (tahidiya) has expired and that it will not be renewed. Rocket fire from Gaza is stepped up.
Dec. 24, 2008 About 60 rockets and mortar shells are launched at Israel by Hamas and associated groups from Gaza.
Dec. 26, 2008 Israel launches Operation Oferet Yetzuka ("Cast Lead') with continuous air strikes at rocket launching facilities, factories, smuggling tunnels, Hamas command and control centers. About 400 Palestinians are killed by December 31. Hamas broadens rocket strikes to include Israeli towns and cities as far away as Beersheba and Yavneh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please point out where Israel broke the peace. I see Hamas canceling participation in Palestinian unification meetings, I see Hamas refusing to renew the tahidiya. I see an escalations of rocket attack against Israel leading to this situation. Maybe you need to study this, not me.

[Malikshah]

42. Nice spin on the Nov 2008 and beyond. Did that come from the robot as well.

Lord, there have been numerous posts over the last week addressing the veracity of this spun timeline and showing it for what it is: spin.

Do try again with some real evidence

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2338

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2008/12/view_from_a_pal/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-true-story-behind-thi_b_153825.html

[Joe the Revelator]

47. So the best you can do it complain that my facts don't line up with your bullshit

Yeah, you're right, you should stop "playing".

[Malikshah]

50. Wow. My parents always taught me that resorting to profanity is a sure sign

that one doesn't have a valid way of expressing one's point.

They sure were right here.

Good luck with the talking points. May they keep you safe and sane.

[Joe the Revelator]

51. If the term "bullshit" is too much for your sensitive ears, maybe you should not discuss grown up

topics.

[Malikshah]

52. It is not about sensitivity, it is about civil discourse. Neither of which I am finding with you

It is about being an adult in polite society. Saying something to someone in such a way that you would be comfortable doing it face to face rather than over the internet.

Good luck with those talking points.

[JackRiddler]

53. "Please point out where Israel broke the peace"

I realize this was earlier in the year, but doesn't this stand out for you?

Feb 27-Mar 3 Large scale Israeli raid in Gaza kills over 100.

Israel with the collusion of Egypt (the #2 US client state by foreign aid) is intentionally practicing slow starvation on the 1.5 million people densely packed into Gaza: cutting off food and fuel, erecting 20-foot walls, maintaining a sea blockade, engaging in periodic incursions and bombings. And it's supposed to be a surprise that a few rockets fly out of this prison? On the contrary, how could that not be part of the calculation, that the people subjected to this will provide the needed provocation for the next Israeli attack? (Not that anyone in the world believes this stuff outside of Israel, US and the pro-Israeli minorities in UK and Germany.)

Suicide bombings are pretty fucked up, but it's rare to hear of a crime quite like allowing a surprise humanitarian aid shipment through such a blockade, and then using it as bait to bring people out for a bombing!

[fla nocount]

45. If you're not recognizing the Astor's and Balfour's...

fronting for the Rothchild's, if you're not acknowledging the shady/shitty little deals cut by T. E. Lawrence with pissy little chieftains to cut up the M.E. in the name of the Crown, then you're not up to snuff regarding the time line. Unless of course you haul out a copy Abraham's Fables, you'll leave me in your dust with that trump card.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[spanone]

25. sixty years of this shit should be enough

[malaise]

27. Susan Glasser up now on Cspan

Excellent call a minute ago.

[spanone]

28. thanks

[Karenina]

46. One would think so but apparently not.

[fla nocount]

49. >>>