Muslims, as a whole, were not responsible for 9/11. Jews, as a whole are not responsible

[cali]

for the Israeli attacks on Gaza, or for that matter the Israeli occupation.

And yet, there are people here conflating Jews with Israelis. There are people here excusing anti-semitism in CA or Europe with comments like "You reap what you sow" and "No justice no peace".

Blaming an entire group for the actions of some is just ignorant. Blaming Jews worldwide for the actions of the Israeli government is not something DUers should be engaging in.

[LeftishBrit]

1. HEAR HEAR!

[cboy4]

2. YUP

:thumbsup:

[Dogmudgeon]

3. K it. R it.

Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

--p!

[KharmaTrain]

4. Igorance..The American Way

I blame a lot of the snap judgements we see/hear on a corporate media that loves to frame news in very simplistic, xenophobic terms. All is viewed through a narrow beltway prism of how events in the world "affect us" or that we have the power to change events. Complicated matters and understanding both history and culture are swept aside as picture and pundits spread their "opinions" only based on their political viewpoint or based on the stereotypes and "conventional wisdom" that rarely is much more that gossip and bullshit.

In another post I've pointed out a "discussion" I had here recently with someone who couldn't differentiate being Jewish and the actions of the Israeli government. The "discussion" soon used the words "you Jews"...as if I somehow was responsible for all that was going on or that it was all a one-sided matter...little context or facts needed. It's like those who I encountered last year who said they couldn't vote for Obama cause he was too "librul" while you knew the real reason was his skin color.

One would hope DU could have a more balance view on this issue, but lately any kind of moderation is seen as either selling out or having some hidden agenda. Attitudes on this issue have harden so deeply it seems all but impossible to discuss what's going on without having to refute a lot of propaganda (both Arab and Israeli) that furthers the dispute and ignorance.

[Romulox]

16. This thread was in response to a synagogue burning in London.

"Igorance..The American Way"

"The path doubles back on itself..." :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

26. Sadly It More Than Doubles

This issue has folded like origami over the years...and with it a lot of outright ignorance and hate.

There was another thread this morning about a synagogue being spray painted in California, and I heard a radio report of threats made to several Chicago area synagogues (this, unfortunately happens a lot when tensions in the Middle East increase). In many cases, the vandalism or "pranksters" are skinheads and white supremesists using the heightened emotions and news coverage to exploit the situation.

Cheers...

:hi:

[cali]

5. This is for those who may appear in this thread

and accuse me of lying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4774740

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4774759

[leftynyc]

59. Here is another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4774711

[AnOhioan]

6. I agree wholeheartedly....

It is the Israeli gov't that is guilty of the occupation and attacks. Not the Jewish people.

It is Hamas who is guilty of launching rockets, not the Palestinian people.


Far too many on both sides of this issue forget those simple facts. They generalize and than wonder why others get upset with them.

[JoDog]

7. Thank you

for posting that. Not all Jews are Israelis, and not all Palestinians are Hamas. Amid all the saber rattling and rocket launching, it's easy to forget that.

[eridani]

8. I hear a lot of that crap on the outside, but not from DU

DUers are the ones posting about the antiwar demos in Tel Aviv, AFAIK.

[cali]

9. sorry, it;s pretty common here.

certainly not the majority but not an insignificant minority either. And how much of is acceptable?

[Posteritatis]

117. It was ugly during the war in Lebanon a couple years ago

Far too much talk about how all Jews worldwide were responsible for Lebanon because they were all "potentially" Israeli citizens (and therefore soldiers), etc, therefore if a Jew gets shot in, say, Omaha or Tokyo or Mars or something, they obviously had it coming. :wtf:

It's not quite as bad here as I've seen in other places - I've been told to my face with all seriousness that if I don't believe all Jews should be wiped out, I must be a Nazi - but discussion of Israel does tend to have a bit of a race-to-the-bottom thing as far as peoples' ability to discuss it in a useful way goes. DU is not exempt from that.

[JNelson6563]

10. Idiocy

Maybe there are people who are trying to explain to the simpler among us that this current violence is being USE#D to justify assholish behavior. Trying to explain a perspective doesn't mean agreeing with it.

Still one dimensional eh Cali? What, no juicy bits in this week's National Enquirer? *sigh*

Julie

[HamdenRice]

11. I disagree somewhat. No one elected the 9/11 hijackers, but the Israeli govt is elected

Israeli voters, the majority of whom are Jewish because of Israel's nationalist nature, are responsible for what's happening in Gaza in the same way that American voters are responsible for what has happened in Iraq.

Israel, like America, has a dysfunctional political system in which a militarist minority is catered to despite majority support for a two state solution. By not reforming their system all Israeli voters bear some responsibility, just as we liberals and progressives bear some responsibility for the Iraq war.

That said there is a difference between "Israeli voters" and "Jews" (ie worldwide).

[cali]

13. uh, so what? Jews in England or CA

are not responsible for the Israeli government. It's exactly the same thing. Muslims aren't responsible for say, the excesses of the Iranian gov't toward GLBT persons, and Jews outside of Israel aren't responsible for what the Israeli gov't does.

[HamdenRice]

14. Did you read the last sentence of my post?

It helps that when responding to a post, if you read it first in its entirety:

'That said there is a difference between "Israeli voters" and "Jews" (ie worldwide).'

But I would even add, that because of Israel's peculiar position as a national state for a still largely dispersed nationality, those who provide political and other forms of support for Israel in other countries are also responsible for the tragedy taking place in Gaza.

[cali]

17. I read it. And sorry, I think you're contradicting yourself and yeah

you're ascribing blame where it doesn't have any legitimate place. Israel is hardly the only national state for a given ethnic group.

[HamdenRice]

20. Irish Americans bore some responsibility for the "troubles" and African Americans bore ...

some responsibility for promoting in the 70s and 80s a double standard in American foreign policy toward white minority regimes in Africa and African despots.

Many Irish Americans callously provided financial support to the military efforts of the IRA and even worse violent splinter groups.

This has nothing to do with singling out any particular group. But we are all responsible, wherever we are, for supporting the immoral behavior of foreign states. You would have to have many counter-factual, non-reality based premises to say that supporters of Israel outside Israel bear no responsibility for the current catastrophe.

[Romulox]

22. Taking your ridiculous "blood debt" reasoning to its logical conclusion, all Palestinians are guilty

for supporting suicide bombers.

You surely do tie yourself up in knots of circular reasoning with some frequency.


:crazy:

[HamdenRice]

25. Your argument about blood debt should be addressed to these guys--->

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Some days, when the loons come out of their cages, DU really is like a circus.

[Romulox]

28. "Many [PaLestinians] callously provided financial support to the military efforts of [Hamas}..."

Your words could as easily be applied to the Palestinians as any other group (an ethnic group is not the same thing as a "nationality", by the way.) And they would be as nonsensical in every case. In other words, if collective punishment is justified as against one of these groups, then it is justified as to all. And vice versa.

Think these things through, please. Or, you could post a couple jpegs, a few flaccid ad hominems, and congratulate yourself on a job well done. Your call.

[HamdenRice]

44. Thank you for proving my point!

Palestinians are indeed responsible for electing Hamas and supporting the firing of missiles into Gaza -- morally responsible -- as is every constituency and supporter, citizen or not, nationality or not, of every state that engages in illegitimate violence.

The difference between my understanding of collective responsibility and the Israeli one, is that for me, the effect of responsibility is that one has a certain moral responsibility and hence moral obligations to end what is done in one's name; the Israeli military's understanding of the effect of collective responsibility is that they can bomb your cities, kill your women, children and innocent male civilians, and destroy your infrastructure. Also, I consider someone responsible if they actively support the state (even if just by tax paying), not just because they happen to be in the vicinity.

We agree on the concept, not on the effect.

Whether you want to call overseas Jewish supporters of Israel a nationality or not (I for one am not interested in stupid circular definitional word games, but let's face it, Israelis use terms like "Jewish National Fund"), to the extent that Jewish communities around the world support Israeli policies -- especially those who support Israel-can-do-no-wrong approaches -- they are as morally responsible as Israeli voters who voted for Israeli policies and abide by its dysfunctional political system.

As for ad hom -- if you don't want to get it, maybe you shouldn't use it? Like, maybe? Huh?

I love the smell of internet ju jitsu in the morning!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Romulox]

75. Very verbose, but a duck: if Israelis are collectively responsible so are Palestinians.

And so all of this violence is justified and deserved.

I reject both your premise and your (faulty) conclusion derived therefrom.

"As for ad hom -- if you don't want to get it, maybe you shouldn't use it? Like, maybe? Huh?"

Link or it didn't happen. :hi:

[HamdenRice]

77. No not a duck at all

Read carefully. It's all there.

[CTyankee]

79. I'm wondering if you know very many Jews. I mean, really.

Since my daughter intermarried into a Jewish family, I am at lots of family occasions where the political discussions become very heated and the arguments loud and fierce. I literally tiptoe out of the room during those discussions because I know better than to offer any opinion (usually they are talking about points that are much finer than I had known!).

I also live in a heavily Jewish area, with lots of orthodox Jews (Joe Lieberman was in the nicer side of the neighborhood when he lived here)as well as "in between." A great deal of discussion goes on on my block as they walk to shull on Saturday mornings. I enjoy having a very heavy Jewish presence in my life, as I am so white bread WASP I bore myself to death...

[HamdenRice]

81. Yes, many

I grew up in a heavily Jewish section of Queens and have always had many Jewish friends and acquaintances. Most have very nuanced perspectives on Israel. Most also support Israel, however, if not "unconditionally."

But the point I'm making -- by comparing their situation to ours vis a vis Iraq -- is, as Yeats pointed out:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4762654

[CTyankee]

86. So of course you know that in Israel these differences of opinion can by

multiplied enormously.

When I am in my granddaughters' temple I am confronted by two thoughts: do I support this enterprise of Judaism for these kids and if so, do I support the entire idea of a Jewish homeland (even tho they may not go there for anything).

I am not religious at all so I cannot easily claim the membership in any church, certainly not the one of my grandfather, a Southern Baptist minister!

The Jewish homeland idea is one that instrinsic to Judaism, in my opinion. They believe in a place that can never be removed from them. It is that simple and that difficult.

I don't knowhow to explain this to you,Hamden. I think your heart is in the right place. I can only hope you understand my quandary...

[cali]

30. ridiculous.

keep digging.

[Romulox]

19. Is it worth pointing out that "Jewish" is not a "nationality"?

Or would that piece of knowledge not even begin to unravel the bizarre assumptions inherent in this post? :hi:

[JackRiddler]

78. What is Jewish in Israel, if not a nationality?

Though there are a minority of Arab Israeli citizens, the Israeli state defines itself as Jewish (explicitly on the flag) and only allows Jewish immigrants - for example, settling Russian Jews who never stepped foot in the country before on the freshly seized West Bank lands of expelled Palestinians. Within the borders of Israel, Jewish is not only a religion, since most Israeli Jews aren't religious. So is Jewish not at all a nationality, inside Israel? What is it, if not?

[CTyankee]

87. Well for one thing it is a Western formed democracy as well.

so my question to you is, what do you want to replace this somewhat western European democracy with? You tell me...

[JackRiddler]

88. Western style democracy doesn't give you a right to seize other peoples' lands.

You haven't really defined the terms for me, but that's all right - it's confusing.

[CTyankee]

91. I don't claim that it is. But that is the crux of the problem -- land and who owns/gets it.

For too long we have not played an active role in helping solve this problem. The Bush administration has done nothing and by doing nothing have done worse.

We have Israel and we have Palestinians and there must be give and take to keep one from attempting to annhialate the other. This is very difficult but we simply must try.

[JackRiddler]

108. Please. It is an outrageous falsehood that the US has "not played an active role"!

CTyankee writes:

"For too long we have not played an active role in helping solve this problem. The Bush administration has done nothing and by doing nothing have done worse."

False.

For too long, the United States government (if that is what you mean by "we") has actively supported, armed and given billions of US taxpayer dollars every year to one side in this conflict, which has therefore been less a conflict than a one-sided massacre by a superpower-backed mini-power against an imprisoned and starving occupied population. During this time, the US government and corporate media have fully echoed Israeli propaganda on all aspects of this conflict, including the absurd idea that the ongoing massacre serves "Israeli self-defense."

The Bush administration has merely continued and intensified the longstanding US policy backed fully by both of the government parties, putting close Likud allies like Perle, Feith, Abrams and Wolfowitz in key foreign policy positions.

CTyankee writes:

"We have Israel and we have Palestinians and there must be give and take to keep one from attempting to annhialate the other. This is very difficult but we simply must try."

All the effort has gone into supporting Israel. The US government (if that is what you mean by "we") could help things immeasurably if it stopped trying, i.e. stopped giving Israel the means and the carte blanche with which it has been annihilating the occupied and starving Palestinian population.

[ShadesOfGrey]

23. How do "we bear some responsibility for the Iraq war"?

I know that I don't. I don't know what more I could have done to try and stop it.

These Israelis don't bear any responsibility for what their government is doing either.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200913202712466579.html

[shadowknows69]

40. We all could have done more to stop it

But it probably would have ended up with most of us dead. Please don't pretend there isn't more that couldn't have been done though. Hamas and the people violently protesting have reached the point they feel they have no other option.

[el_bryanto]

96. This is a valid point

I am largely on Israels side, if I have to pick a side, but they clearly over reach and do awful things fairly regularly. And they are a democracy; in a Democracy the crimes of the government are the crimes of the citizens of that state.

Bryant

[Bonobo]

110. As is Hamas. So with your logic, all Palestinians are respinsible. nt

[ShadesOfGrey]

12. It's heartbreaking that this needs to be pointed out. k&r

[Duckhunter935]

15. Dupe removed

[Duckhunter935]

18. Yes, thank you and well said

And that also goes for the other side.

All palistinians are not terrarists

[Brazenly Liberal]

21. I agree completely -- but to be fair,

I must say I have seen it the other way around much more often. That is to say any criticism of Israel, the state, is labeled Antisemitism.

[cali]

24. That exists too, but frankly, most opinion here is strongly critical

of Israel- rightfully so, in my opinion- and that leads to the conflation of Jews with Israelis. I'm seeing more of that right now, than false cries of anti-semitism.

[Brazenly Liberal]

32. Well, let me say this

I'm with you on this. Whether there is actually more of what you've seen or what I've seen really matters a lot less than the fact that either one is WRONG. We can approve or disapprove of Israel's actions (or even its existence) as a state without holding Jews as a religious group responsible.

(edited to remove comment that seemed unnecessarily and unintentionally snarky)

[conscious evolution]

66. Its a corollary to Godwin's Law

The longer a discussion of israeli/palestinian issues goes the greater the chances of being labeled anti-semitic.

[Brazenly Liberal]

69. HA! You got that right! nt

[Orsino]

27. Last I heard, only 50% of Israel identified as Jewish.

I would go so far as to say that Judaism is used an excuse for various abuses.

[Duckhunter935]

31. Yes quite a few Arabs in Israel living in peace nt

[cayuga]

35. Actually, it's 80%. Check Wikipedia

And the leaders are Jewish. Ergo....

[Fumesucker]

71. CIA factbook on Israel says 76.4% Jewish..

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#People

[LeftishBrit]

47. About 80%, though many are not religious.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. Absolutely right!

I hate it when folks equate all Jews with Israel. I also hate it when criticism of the Israeli government is taken as a slap against all Jews. I know they are not one and the same, and when I criticize the Israeli government, or make comments upon how that government is viewed by the general public, I hope others realize this.

[Bandit]

33. The State of Israel is doing these deeds, not just a small band of murderers.

I am not even sure the 9-11 hijackers were Muslims or that religion had any part in their murdering thousands. I do know the State of Israel is engaged in Murder at the moment..I also know that apples and oranges are not the same thing..

[cali]

38. uh, it's exactly the same.

Jews are NOT Israelis and the state of Israel isn't even all Israeli Jews. Oh, and who do YOU think perpetrated 9/11?

[Winterblues]

73. Jews are a people, Muslims are a religion

Jews are an ethnic group of people. some are Christians and some are even Muslim but Muslims are always Muslim. Islam is a Religion and you seem to be confused about the two...

[uppityperson]

83. What? "Jews are an ethnic group of people. some are Christians and some are even Muslim but Muslims"

what? Islam is a religion and Jews are a people?

[Dorian Gray]

34. How many DUers

are actually doing that? I've seen one, maybe two, in another thread, and of course anyone who does so is a fool.

You are correct, of course, but I don't think it's a sweeping DU wide problem.

[cayuga]

36. When the leaders are Jewish and the country is 80% Jewish....

Then the Jewish Israelis are to blame.

[cali]

41. I'm talking about Jews outside of Israel. Although, I don't blame all Israelis

for their government's actions anymore than I blame all Americans for our government's actions. duh.

[cayuga]

52. 81% of Israelis approve of the Gaza atrocity.

That's who I blame. If 81% of Americans approved of Iraq atrocities, I would be appalled and would expect the condemnation of the world.

[LeftishBrit]

62. Polls in April and May 2003...

just after the war had started, when it had already been clear that WMD were not found, showed that over 70% of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. One Gallup poll showed 79% approval.

See Wikipedia entry on 'Popular opinion in the US on the invasion of Iraq' - all right, it is Wikipedia, but the sources are given.

[cayuga]

67. Thank God the majority of Americans saw the true light in that 5 years.

I just wish Israelis could see how this violence just begets violence and they are less safe today and will be less safe tomorrow in their own homes, or on their busses, or in their markets. Americans understand this, why don't they?

[liberalhistorian]

72. Good God, please tell me that that

poll of Israelis is wrong. PLEASE. I simply cannot imagine how they could even begin to approve of such barbaric atrocious actions, especially given what they've historically been through for centuries at the hands of others.

[LeftishBrit]

45. Then SOME Jewish Israelis are to blame.

Would you like to have all Americans blamed for the actions of Bush?

[Sebastian Doyle]

132. Well, that would lead to other questions.

We know Chimpy never actually won an election. But I was under the impression that Israeli elections were actually legit, meaning that the Likud warmongers (and their KaDLCma proxy party founded by Sharon) were actually winning elections over there.

That's the part I don't get. If the majority of Jews in Israel oppose the way the Palestinians are treated, and would like to see a reasonable solution to that whole clusterfuck, then why do they continue to allow these asshats to be elected?

Or are their elections as fucked as ours in the US?

[shadowknows69]

37. That's funny. You seem to have been very defensive of Israel punishing ALL of Gaza

for the actions of Hamas. Are dead children a part of a terrorist organization?

[cali]

39. what are ;you incoherently trying to say?

Any moron who reads what I've had to say about the Israeli massacre in Gaza knows that I consider it a crime against humanity. Try reading, genius.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

51. The OP has strongly criticized the Israeli actions in Gaza (nt)

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

55. uh, I didn't solicit anyone's comments

or speak for anyone but myself. I'm not so weak that I feel the need to do that. Unlike, say, YOU.

[cayuga]

58. Why do your threads always become personal?

Can't you debate this like a grownup? People like you are why these threads get thrown out.

[cali]

60. why not ask that of the person

I posted to? Or are you simply being selective. And no, sorry, I'm not the reason these threads get thrown out. In fact, my threads about Gaza and I/P have not been moved from GD.

[cayuga]

63. Yes, either this board is very arbitrary or exhibits a bias.

It is very clear, in spite of your denouncing the violence, which side you support.

[cayuga]

65. I am being selective.

You called me names, which I don't feel is very conducive to the good-will of this board. And you have called other people names and you have been insulting to other posters. Please try to be civil or debate forums such as this will cease to exist.

[shadowknows69]

61. I didn't solicit this opinion BTW

So there's another hole in your swiss cheese dearie.

[leftynyc]

43. I hate the fact that this thread

was necessary to write.

[Prophet 451]

48. Semi-agreed

First off, the part I entirely agree with: Israel and Jewish people are not the same thing. Criticising Israel should not be taken as anti-semitism, nor should criticism of Israel's actions be used as an excuse for anti-semitism. Criticising Israel - perfectly acceptable; anti-semitism - not acceptable.

That said, and I'm going to try phrasing this very carefully, those who have financially funneled money to Israel over the years (both Jewish and fanatical Christians) without thinking about where that money was going bear at least some level of responsibility, albeit many layers removed, here. In the same way that those who channeled money to the IRA over the years bear some level of responsibility, many layers removed, for those killed by the IRA's bombs over the years. Hopefully, I phrased that carefully enough.

[cali]

50. fair enough

but I think the responsibility for hate acts lies with the haters.

[LeftishBrit]

57. Most British/American Jews have never funnelled money to the Israeli government...

frankly, most don't have that sort of money for starters! Paying taxes to one government is quite enough.

Ditto for Irish-Americans supporting the IRA financially; obviously there were groups that did, but it was hardly a general activity for people of Irish origin.

Those who fund governments/ nationalist groups without checking how the money is spent *do* have some responsibility for what the groups then do, but it's hardly something most people are doing.

The reference here is to indiscriminate attacks on synagogues (or mosques, etc.) or individual Jews or Muslims. There's a thread on DU about an arson attack on a London synagogue, where one or two people are implying that it's acceptable in view of what's happened in Gaza: 'an eye for an eye'. This is the sort of thing the OP is about.

[Prophet 451]

64. Granted

It was only ever a small number who were channeling money to such groups and those who didn't shouldn't be held responsible for those who did.

And obviously, attacks on the holy places of Jews, Muslims or anyone else is utterly unacceptable.

[Political Tiger]

56. I agree. n/t

:thumbsup:

[BlueMTexpat]

68. I don't believe that I have ever conflated Jewry as a whole with Israelis.

In fact, I do not even conflate Israelis as a whole with the small but powerful RW faction and the even smaller but crazier RW faction (Netanyahu & co) that Olmert and Livni are currently trying to impress. Many Israelis are actually on the front lines in their own country protesting Israeli actions in Gaza, much more strongly than we in the US are.

But I have seen generally in the US a tendency to condemn Muslims, Arabs and especially Palestinian Arabs for the actions of some few crazies. It has become one new form of bigotry that seems to be more and more acceptable.

The rogue elements who are firing rockets are generally from Islamic Jihad (a breakaway Fatah group, btw). And so long as Israel keeps targeting police stations and security HQ ... as they always have ... there is no way Hamas, or Fatah before it, for that matter, can keep the peace. It is a ceaseless circle of violence and slaughter, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But the fact of the matter is that the brunt of the violence and slaughter is being felt by Palestinians. Finally, because the violence and slaughter are being enabled by US policy, encouragement, funding and arms, we in the US, Jew and non-Jew alike, who do not speak out against this disproportionate slaughter and violence (war crimes, btw), are complicit in them.

:argh: :banghead:

[liberalhistorian]

70. Amen, and well put. It gets really tiresome

hearing such simplistic, knee-jerk emotional ignorant nonsense.

However, it works both ways. Too much of the time, any criticism of Israel at all is immediately labeled "anti-semitism", thus making it impossible for any reasonable discussion of Israeli policies and actions. Any sympathy or concern for Palestinians expressed at all immediately means that you must not care about Israel or Israelis. That is equally tiresome and infuriating. I totally and unequivocally disagree with Israel's current actions and policies and weep for those in Gaza suffering from their actions, and am getting mighty sick of the extremely biased coverage from my country's media. That does not make me anti-semitic or unconcerned with Israelis.

Those who do not wish to be associated with Israel's actions also need to stand up and speak out against them. I'm not hearing too much of that right now from too many people who SHOULD be standing up against it.

[rvablue]

74. Thank you for posting this distintion...it is VERY important to keep in mind

when discussing these issues.

I don't like what the Israeli GOVERNMENT is doing right now.

With that said, I do not and will never conflate the actions of said government with the people of Jewish faith. To do so, is to show the height of ignorance.

[Occam Bandage]

76. I haven't seen anyone conflating Jews and Israel, but either way thank you for this. nt

[AntiFascist]

80. I am in total agreement with you on this...

when blaming the groups in question, it should always be prefaced with "right-wing" and then it begins to make sense. From a conspiratorial point of view, how right-wing groups collude with one another also makes sense.

The right-wing, formerly anti-Communist, Muslim Brotherhood evolved into Al Qaeda. Right-wing factions in charge of Israeli government are always responsible for aggression. Right-wing reactionary (misnamed 'radical') conservatives are behind the preemptive war efforts of the Bush Administration.

[TWiley]

82. As with the Christians, where are the Jewish voices denouncing the action?

I do not say that these voices do not exist, I am saying that I have personally heard NO Jewish outcry against Israel's attack. Just like the Christians during the run up to the war in Iraq, those in opposition were SILENT, and there were little to NO Christian voices speaking out against the war. Christians were lined up all the way from Jesus to Hell in support of the war.

I would be gratified when at last, the religious voices in opposition would take the lead in denouncing the war, or in peace efforts. Their blubbering wails are always the same "Don't blame the entire group just because there is NO substantial evidence that there is a difference".

[Gwendolyn]

84. You sound like the right-wingers who denounced all muslims following the various...

terror attacks in past years for not "speaking out" loud enough.

[Hatalles]

85. Good point. Take Rabbi Lerner, for example...

He's speaking out against the Israeli aggression in Gaza -- but how come none of the major news outlets will have him on?

[TWiley]

89. well, If you want to distinguish a group from a group ......

How else do you suggest to do it? I know of no other way. When the overwheling majority of any group vocally agrees with an action, and the minority appears either silent, or non-existant, then why blame others for "broad brushing"?

If someone criticizes the actions of a single christian, then someone else ALWAYS gets on their high horse and says "oh you are broadbrushing EVERY christian, not everyone feels that way". Of course not everyone feels the same way. That goes without saying, or at least it used to. The point is that if YOU are a christian, and disagree with the actions of fellow Christians, then stand up yourself and say it instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you, and then criticizing them for it.

If there are differences between this group of "Christians" (for example), and that group of Christians, then please, by all means, point out those differences, especially if you are a Christian yourself.

Do NOT expect others to defend your faith when the seeming majority agrees with something that is wrong. It is childish to expect that it will happen ..... do it YOURSELF.

[Behind the Aegis]

90. You seem confused.

Israelis does not equal Jews, nor vice versa. You are expecting Jews to speak out because of the actions of Israel. If this is the case, then you are making it very easy to conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Israeli policy.

[TWiley]

99. Oh you are right, 95% of Israelis are NOT Jewish.

Stupid me for not noticing that.

[LeftishBrit]

107. About 23% actually; but what's more important here is that not all Jews are Israelis

And certainly not all Jews, or even all Israelis, are the Israeli government.

Would you think it OK, as an American, to be attacked (I mean literally physically attacked) for the actions of Bush?

[TWiley]

119. I do not condone violence against anyone.

And, Americans have been attacked for the actions of bush. Unfortunately, it goes with the territory. If you have not noticed, americans are not well liked in many places around the world because of bush.

You cannot separate the Arab - Israeli conflict from religion. Sorry, but they go hand in hand. If it was not for religion, especially fundamentalist religion, then a solution would probably have been found a thousand years ago.

You have two groups who both truly believe that their God wants them to occupy the same piece of ground, and they are willing to kill for it. As you refuse to recognize the importance of religion in this conflict, I presume you are a bit puerile. Time to grow up.

[LeftishBrit]

95. It's not a question of asking others to *defend* your faith

It's a question of expecting others not to *punish* you for your faith.

Big difference.

[TWiley]

100. Now, you seem a bit confused.

You are saying that others cannot question the faithful because if they do, then they are "broadbrushing". Now, for some insane reson, you equate criticism with "punishment" while neatly avoiding becoming one of the vocal ones who disagrees.

See .... you are doing it yourself .... Silent on the crime, and then criticizing those who speak up by accusing them of "broadbrushing.

The problem with "faith" is that it erodes critical thinking skills. No proof needed, and no discussion allowed. Just believe, or get persecuted by the faithful.

[LeftishBrit]

104. You are misunderstanding me completely

(1) I am an atheist, though ethnically Jewish. I don't subscribe to any faith.

(2) Why do you assume I'm silent? I actively support groups in favour of Middle East peace, including the one I linked to.

(3) When I say 'punishment' I mean arson attacks on synagogues, violence toward Jews - and support for such actions. Maybe you haven't seen some of the comments on other threads?

Do you not see a difference between: saying "The Israeli invasion of Gaza is wrong" or even "Peace-loving Jews should speak up more against the Israeli invasion of Gaza" and saying "If Jews get attacked after the Gaza invasion that's just an eye for an eye", or "Jews should expect antisemitism if Israel acts in this way"? Just like the difference between saying "Suicide bombings by extreme Islamist groups are wrong" and saying "With all the suicide bombings by Islamist groups, it's no wonder that Europaean Muslims get attacked".

[TWiley]

113. I have not seen these "attacks"

"The Israeli invasion of Gaza is wrong" or even "Peace-loving Jews should speak up more against the Israeli invasion of Gaza" and saying "If Jews get attacked after the Gaza invasion that's just an eye for an eye", or "Jews should expect antisemitism if Israel acts in this way?"

First of all, you have inserted YOUR argument for mine. However, I will address your issue with a simple question:
"If Israel acts this way, then is it reasonable to expect an outpouring of love and tolerance for the Jewish"?

[Dorian Gray]

124. So you are

justifying the attacks on a British synagogue or an American Jewish Kindergarten?

Because that's what this thread was in response to.... saying that Israel's actions don't give excuse for that.



And any attacks on Jews in this country (or any) in retaliation for this Israeli armed conflict is NO BETTER than any attack on any person after 9-11 for being Muslim. Those people had nothing to do with the perpetuation of crimes, and attacking them is a hateful, ignorant thing to do.

And supporting those attacks here are a hateful and ignorant thing to do.

[Gwendolyn]

105. You seem to be a little confused, or perhaps have experienced a lapse in critical thinking yourself.

"you equate criticism with 'punishment'" is your comment.

The OP refers to people in various countries being attacked because they happen to share a religion with those of another. In effect, reaping punishment for something they neither caused or have any control over.

The person you responded to was attempting to elucidate you to how morally wrong that is.

[TWiley]

114. Lets see, 1000's of Japanese and Germans interned during WWII why?

[Gwendolyn]

115. Umm... because people were bigoted and racist obviously.

The Japanese received an official apology for their suffering. Why? Because clearly it was wrong, as it is today when people are harmed in any way based on whatever characteristics they bear to those of another reviled country, be it religion, race, etc.

I'm supposing the reason you brought it up is to point out that had the Japanese and German governments submitted to the will of opposition countries their persecution wouldn't have happened. I could just imagine Hitler wringing his hands, despairing over whether he should press forward with plans to annex all of Europe or desist and spare the suffering of a handful of German-Americans. Lol. Just goes to prove the obvious... governments don't make policy based on the potential acts of violence that might be perpetrated on their ex-pats, or those who share a religion. I dunno, should people be beating up muslims because Saudi Arabia stones women and hangs gay people? Come on. You're making an excuse for racism and bigotry and I think you know that.

[TWiley]

118. Well, Arab - Israeli conflict, or Irish Catholic - Protestant conflict, German - American war

These are common speech patterns. If someone said, "in early America, the white people enslaved the black people", or "the white people waged a genocidal war against the native americans" I WOULD NOT BE OFFENDED. Why? Well, because it is true.

Most people understand that not ALL jews support the recent Gaza invasion. It goes without saying, unless of course you are speaking with someone who is rather anal about the subject.

You are trying to draw the worlds attention to the difference between a board and a plank. "yawn" Why is it that the religious are so darn sensitive to any percieved criticism? There is ALWAYS an immediate charge of "broadbrushing".

The news calls it an "Arab - Israeli" conflict, so sue them too. It is also true that 95% of Israeli's are Jewish, and a vast majority of Arabs are Muslim. So cry me a river while YOU learn the rules about groups and individuals within the group.

If there are distinctions to be made, then it is the responsibility of the faithful to point out these distinctions. That never happens, so those who do speak up are automatically accused of bigotry, anti-semitism, or broad brushing. Gimmee a break.

How about this: The Americans are responsible for the illegal invasion of Iraq. Is that offensive, or is it simply true? You will notice that many Americans made a point of saying ... I disagree. But, the statement is TRUE.

[Gwendolyn]

120. I don't have a clue what all that meant. But it's clear you don't know what the OP was talking about

It's about perpetrating violence against people because of their religion or race etc... simply because you don't like the policies of the country they came from. Does that click at all? It's not about the official "name" of some conflict or what that tangent was supposed to mean. I didn't really get it.

It's incredible that you assume everyone should speak up to assuage YOUR sensibilities. Why should any Jew or Muslim, German, Polish, Christian, Atheist, be obligated to enmesh themselves in a political crisis that perhaps they may not give the slightest crap about? Or perhaps their opinion is 180 to yours.

No one is obligated to do or say anything, and big shocker, they can even disagree with you... that's the beauty of living in a democratic country. There may be lots of religious Jews and Christians living in London, Paris, Brussels who totally support Israel. There may be Americans who don't believe the invasion of Iraq was illegal. But guess what? No one is supposed to get beat up, we don't burn down houses of worship, or otherwise intimidate because of differing opinions or even complete detachment. Your outrage that more religious Jews or Christians aren't speaking up for YOUR point of view is arrogant to the nth. And that you seem to approve of violence perpetrated against people who don't agree with your point of view, i.e. the "right" one, speaks volumes as well. But hey, if that the case, that's your business.

[TWiley]

123. and, Ms Gwendolyn, I can disagree with you.

I in no way condone perpetrating violence against people because of their religion or race etc..... Now, when the Israeli's decided to invade Gaza, how, pray-tel, did they choose what to shoot at? They sort of broad brushed the region and started hurling bombs. Hamas is doing the same thing by sending rockets into Israel. Both sides have killed innocent people. Ever think of them? or is it a better shine on the old halo to choose someone not in the area to blather about?

I am not asking anyone to speak up for MY sensibilities either. I am suggesting that they speak up for THEIR OWN. A Jew can criticize another Jew and miss the anti-Semitic slur. I cannot. Maybe if more of them did it then non-Jews would not have to? The same dynamic is true, especially true of the Christians, so it is not limited to any specific religious group.

What you are "calling for" is stupid and ridiculous. If an Arab hates the Jews on a personal level, then there is little YOU can do to stop his attack against a random Jew. Fellow Arabs will have more influence than anyone else; especially an american. These are the voices that NEED to be heard. They are the evidence of eroding political support. Enough voices may actually stop a rocket from killing more children on either side.

Without this erosion of political support, then the hawks have a free reign. Think about how the silence of the good old American Christian community became complicate in the Iraq war. Before you bather on about the multitude of Christians who opposed the war from the beginning,stop, just stop. I was there too, and there were NO voices. All we heard was patriotic country songs, and flag waving Christians getting all happy about attacking muslims. If there was significant dissent (and it is still not present) then it would have turned out different.

If the war ends, the trend of random attacks in other countries will likely be reduced. If the war escalates, then this same trend will likely increase. Sounds like a shitty deal, but that is the deal. Sometimes it is better to simply understand the world the way it actually is instead of lamenting about it not being the way we wished it was. If the parties directly involved dont "give a crap" then it will likely get worse in spite of your self-righteous assertions of bigotry on the part of those who wish to see it end.

[Gwendolyn]

130. "If an Arab hates the Jews on a personal level...

then there is little YOU can do to stop his attack against a random Jew."

I don't have to do a damn thing. That's what we have a police department for, along with all the other agencies that are supposed to investigate hate crime and prosecute the cowardly thugs who roam around in their little groups smashing stuff and beating people. They're just human filth, nothing more.

"I am not asking anyone to speak up for MY sensibilities either. I am suggesting that they speak up for THEIR OWN."

And here you go again, berating those people who don't speak up for your side. Because apparently THEIR OWN equates with YOURS. If you don't see that, you're pretty obtuse. But I think you do, basically all you've put forth is thinly veiled propaganda justifying, and perhaps even promoting, violence against others. Just because you add a disclaimer at the start of each post, doesn't mean people don't understand what the rest of it means.

[TWiley]

131. Ok, now you have me thouroughly confused

Precicely what is your point? I have been trying to say that the most effective criticism would come from people within the same group. Evidently, you have this twisted into something that I did not intend it to be.

So, what exactly IS your point? You really have me confused with that last post.

[Gwendolyn]

140. My point now is the same as it was when I first responded to you.

There is no difference between you and the average ignorant Rethuglian who justifies the beatings of muslims, vandalism of property after 911 because prominent religious leaders, and muslims in general, haven't denounced Fundamentalist Islam violence and terror. In your mind of course, there's a world of difference. What that is, one can guess.

While you make a point of denouncing violence, each time you post one gets the sense of "that's what they get for being _______." Did you appear on the thread concerning the woman who was gang raped in Cali recently, to say..."that's what she gets for being gay in prop 8 country?" I doubt it. But somehow it works for you that Jews who live around the world are to be attacked for the I/P situation. You don't say so overtly of course, just word it in a sneaky, passive way, as in, "the violence is to be expected." Also a rethuglian tactic.

You make further passive suggestions that people sharing characteristics with those of some *offending* country have only the offensive government to blame for the hate crime perpetrated against them. That's basically a tacit approval of terrorism. By your logic, Christian evangelists ought to spread worldwide, bombing abortion clinics and targeting hate crimes against the women who seek them as a way of forcing the American government to repeal its freedom of choice laws. In your mind of course, there's again a world of difference because you were only speaking of the Jews, and you don't think of it as "hate crime" when some guy gets hauled out of his car and beaten, or Jews are shot to death at a mall, or synagogues torched. Why? Well, it isn't hate crime if it's directed at a group of people you oppose, because you are *right.* Again, total rethuglian thought process.

[Dorian Gray]

126. Right

so Muslims and Jews the world over should all be attacked for the actions of the Israeli and the Hamas governments.

[TWiley]

129. Who said that Muslims and Jews the world over should be attacked?

Nice Strawman argument. Nobody anywhere on this board said that "Muslims and Jews the world over should all be attackded for the actions of the Israeli and Hamas governments." Where do you lamebrains get this shit from?

The greater the atrocity, the greater the outrage. It is an axiom. Do you expect bigots the world over to buy every Jew they know a flower and give them a hug?

[Dorian Gray]

139. No, I don't expect them to

go the world over to buy flowers and give hugs. Nor do I expect anyone to BURN DOWN SCHOOLS and SYNAGOGUES. Either scenario is ridiculous. Guess which one has happened, and guess which one you MITIGATE by saying "Well, What do you expect?"

Yeah... that's right... Your argument is continued justification for the desecration of Jewish property in the USA or UK.

No strawman. That's the truth. You can respond to that by saying: "Well, what can they expect when Israel acts so irrationally and hatefully?" And I will agree that their continued actions are reprehensible.

[cali]

135. every post of yours in this thread is a great example of ignorance

a real object lesson in not posting when you don't know jack shit.

Israel is about 78% Jewish. Nearly 2 million citizens of Israel are not jewish. Many more are ethnically or culturally jewish but not religious.

And the OP wasn't about perceived anti-semitism. It was about plain old overt bigotry.

[TWiley]

138. Speaking of Jack Shit

My only point is and has been that the most effective criticism of the Jewish will come from other Jews. Likewise, the most effective criticism of Christians will come from other Christians.

Whenever a non-jew criticises a jew, or a non-christian criticises a christian, or a non-muslim criticises a muslim, then someone like you accuses them of bigotry, broadbrushing, or something equally insane.

So what if 22% of Israel is not Jewish. The overwhelming majority IS Jewish, and their ELECTED leaders serve at the pleasure of this majority. If a majority of JEWISH people complain, then their government has a real problem on their hands. Likewise, if ALL 22% of the non-Jews complain, then nothing will happen. Furthermore, I do not give a crud if we are talking about Christians, Homosexuals, Muslims, Jews, or plain old bigots like you who look for other peoples tears to polish their halo's with.

THE SIMPLE FACT IS THAT THE MOST EFFECTIVE CRITICISM COMES FROM OTHERS WITHIN THE SAME GROUP. THAT WAY, ASSHOLES LIKE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BLATHER AND BLOVIATE ABOUT.

Now, go write an article for the national inquirer.

[LeftishBrit]

122. Because that's the sort of thing that happens once it's considered acceptable to hold an entire

ethnic group responsible for the actions of a government.

And it was wrong then and it is wrong now.

[Dorian Gray]

125. So that's

justification?

[LeftishBrit]

92. There are lots of Jewish voices against the action

Plenty of protests, including some in Israel itself.

Here's a link to just one British Jewish organization against the action:

www.jfjfp.org


In any case, why should Jews be required to 'prove' themselves by denouncing Israeli actions in order to escape antisemitism? Just as why should Muslims be required to 'prove' themselves by denouncing jidadists in order to escape Islamophobia?

[TWiley]

101. Thank you for posting this .... this is where the protest should be.

If you agree, then why not accept the support of the non-jewish and stop attacking them?

Oh, too bad there are far too few Jews protesting isn't it? If we left it to them alone, it would never take place.

[cali]

93. uh, J Street, Michael Lerner and many, many more.

Your ignorance is astounding.

[TWiley]

103. So, you are saying that the majority of Jews oppose the invasion?

If you are saying that, then please prove it. If this is not what you are saying, then please tell poor ignorant me what percent of the group agrees with the invasion of Gaza, which percent opposes it, and which percent is undecided.

Certainly a well-learned oracle like yourself would have this information right at your fingertips.

[LeftishBrit]

106. How is this relevant to antisemitic attacks on Jews?

It is not antisemitic to criticize Israel.

It is not Islamphobic to criticize Hamas.

It is antisemitic to justify attacks on Jews as a whole because of actions by Israel.

It is Islamophobic to justify attack on Muslims as a whole because of actions by Hamas.

Antisemitic or Islamophobic actions are *never* justified. Same goes for any attacks on people because of their race/nationality/religion.

[TWiley]

111. You are having a problem understanding my point

So, please provide YOUR information as mine is unacceptable to you.

1) Please explain how many Israeli's are NOT Jewish.
2) Who, anywhere is justifying "attacks" on Jews as a whole?
3) What percentage of Jewish people oppose the Israeli attack?

You are creating a strawman argument because it is the only way you can make your point.

[LeftishBrit]

121. Responses

(1) About 23%. About 20% Arabs or Druze; about 3% of non-Jewish immigrant origin.

(2) Here are links to a couple of recent threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=search_advanced&hits_per_page=25&search_type=advanced&page=3

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4774711


The worst comments have been cleaned up, but there are still suggestions that these hate-crimes are understandable in terms of Israel's actions, and that it's really Israel's fault for not considering the effect on Jews worldwide.

(3) I have no idea (I would guess currently a majority but not an overwhelming one); and don't consider it to be relevant to this particular issue - unless one is going to poll ALL groups about every war in the world, and use the percentages to rate their 'deservingness'.

[Dorian Gray]

128. ARGHHHH!

It's not about ISRAELIS who aren't JEWISH.

It's about the JEWISH who are NOT ISRAELI.



That's the first huge point that you seem to not want to address.

[cali]

136. a minor point. It's "Israelis" NOT "Israeli's"

There's no apostrophe unless one is using the word as a possessive. pretty basic stuff. And you make this error in every post where you use the word, so it's certainly not a typo.

[Dorian Gray]

127. The dissonance

in this conversation is astounding. You seem to be ignoring the initial point... VIOLENCE against the JEWISH in America is abhorrent, and justification of said violence is inane. They are not responsible for this military action. So all your arguments further ingrain you into some sort of position that totally ignores (at best) or justifies (at worst) any such violence.

[cali]

133. I have no idea what the numbers are, never claimed any such thing.

I simply pointed out that there are plenty of Jewish groups and individuals who oppose the invasion. duh.

Here's the post of yours I responded too:

As with the Christians, where are the Jewish voices denouncing the action?
Edited on Tue Jan-06-09 04:26 PM by TWiley
I do not say that these voices do not exist, I am saying that I have personally heard NO Jewish outcry against Israel's attack. Just like the Christians during the run up to the war in Iraq, those in opposition were SILENT, and there were little to NO Christian voices speaking out against the war. Christians were lined up all the way from Jesus to Hell in support of the war.

I would be gratified when at last, the religious voices in opposition would take the lead in denouncing the war, or in peace efforts. Their blubbering wails are always the same "Don't blame the entire group just because there is NO substantial evidence that there is a difference".


YOU claimed that you had heard NO jewish outcry against the invasion. I responded to it demonstrating that there's considerable outcry against it. Then you dishonestly claimed that I was suggesting that the majority of Jews opposed it.

dog, what a piece of work you are.

[mmonk]

94. And sometimes people misread what someone is trying to say.

[Obamanaut]

97. You wrote "Blaming an entire group for the actions of some is just ignorant."

This is so very true, but how to make it stop? We see it frequently, vilifying all for misdeeds of a few - military, police, christian, non christian, southerners, ______?_____ (fill in blank.) Just as there are miscreants in society as a whole, there will be some in any sub group as well.

But I don't know how to fix it.

[wildbilln864]

98. Bush and Cheney are responsible for 9/11 goddamnit! nt

:banghead:

[cali]

102. whatever. even if that's true, it hardly negates the point of my OP

[wildbilln864]

109. are you saying you don't believe...

Bush and Cheney are responsible for what happens under their watch?
Never was trying to negate your post just don't want people to forget who was supposed to be protecting America on that day and failed.

[Boomerang Diddle]

112. you are so right!

[TheKentuckian]

116. I know. Let's start holding white people responsible for all the crap white people do and have done

The US blows up a hospital, then I'm blaming whites. When Palin says something crazy, I'm blaming whites. Russian commercial fisherman piss me off, blaming whites. Jobs get outsourced, that's right whites. Rednecks beat up a gay kid, blaming whites even if the gay kid is white. The Brits burn a synagogue, then it is the whites that take the blame.
Abortion clinic bombing, you know that's the whites.

[skooooo]

134. apples and oranges..

I don't believe in blanket guilt, so in a sense I agree with you. However, your analogy leaves a lot to be desired. Many American Jews and Jewish groups support and lobby for Israel, and are in a very sense hold SOME responsibility for the direction of Israeli policy.

[cali]

137. No, it's precisely the same.

and grab a clue: Many Jews in America work for peace in the mideast and lobby for peace. J Street, Michael Lerner, etc. Many more Jews have zero involvement. Furthermore, even if every single Jew in this country supported AIPAC, that wouldn't justify anti-semitism. And there are Muslims in this country who support Palestine. There's nothing inherently wrong with an individual supporting either. Lastly, the worst of the anti-semitism seen in recent days, has been in Europe.