The job market is incredibly scary, I had no idea...

[JeffreyWilliamson]

I've researched and sent a resume to about 10 good companies yesterday and today, as well as applied to a few second string players that would be decent.

Not one call. Not one e-mail, except to tell me there are not any positions available. Not even basic clerical/office stuff. Every place I've been in person it's the same thing, "You have a great resume and experience, Mr. Williamson, but I'm afraid we just aren't hiring right now. We'll keep your contact information on file and let you know if something opens up". I'm applying for jobs I'm qualified for, and I knew the market was going to be tough right now, but everyone seems to be on a permanent hiring freeze.

Turning back on prior hospitality experience from some time ago, I am looking into hotels and restaurants to see what their staffing situation is, and so far I've actually heard or read the same thing.

I spent the weekend researching companies locally, and realize I have only been looking for a couple of days, but it's very discouraging. Hopefully I will at least get an interview somewhere this week...

[rockymountaindem]

1. Good luck out there

It's rough, but we're all in this together. I'm waiting to hear about some possible work with my grad school myself, so I know how this goes.

[zulchzulu]

2. Companies are making a self-fulfilling prophecy

It hopefully will improve once Obama gets in and people see that stuff is trying to get done.

Good luck in your search.

[aquart]

3. Last year, before the crash, it was taking six months to get a job.

Minimum. And you didn't realize it was worse now?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

5. Oh, I realized it was bad, I actually was an office manager at a staffing firm...

But we didn't actually staff in the office field, so I guess that while the field we staffed in was slower, I didn't realize how it would be in my own sector.

I guess I did think I would be able to find something basic to squeeze into, but no one's hiring even waiters around here.

[Warpy]

23. Business is down across the board

and even the jobs of last resort--retail--aren't there now.

You're going to have to blunder into something at this point, a situation where an employer finally realized he didn't have to put up with a nitwit brother in law since his divorce came through and you're the first applicant through the door. Organization and persistence are generally a help, but they alone won't save you. It's going to take some luck.

I hope you get it.

[sandnsea]

4. A new employee tax credit

to help businesses who hire in the U.S., maybe sounds like a pretty good idea.

[Robbien]

40. Not in the slightest

Getting a couple of bucks at the end of the year is not going to matter one whit in the employment area. A company is either looking for someone or is not. Getting a few extra bucks at the end of the year is not even a slight motivation in the hiring thought process.

Bet you are glad low wage earners are going to get that $500 bucks now aren't ya. Oh yeah, to qualify to receive that $500 (paid out to you at the big whopping amount of $20 a month) one actually has to HAVE a job.

But hey, at least there's those tax cuts!!!!!

[sandnsea]

43. Democrats have been proposing that tax cut

for years. Kerry proposed it in 2004. It's to help businesses compete against outsourcing, offset some of the expenses of hiring. Were you criticizing it when he

I am one of those who doesn't pay federal income taxes because I'm self-employed, so I could give a crap about tax cuts.

I'm not stupid, however, and I do know that many local businesses are having a helluva time expanding when they have to add in all the expenses of hiring employees. Since the dumbasses will not take health care out of the equation by nationalizing it, at least this is something to help businesses equalize the playing field.

[Robbien]

47. Yes, right of center Dems have been proposing all kinds

of helping business tax credits. Just because a Dem pushes it doesn't make it a good idea.

The entire non-stimulus bill is just that non-stimulus. A give away to those who already have assets.

No help at all to anyone who is struggling or the economy that is struggling. Just old stale non-starter ideas.

[sandnsea]

58. I don't understand what you expect

The rebates were stupid. The income tax credits aren't really enough to be useful, but he promised them and people voted for them, so he's delivering.

I also don't understand why you wouldn't want to help small businesses who are struggling just as much as anybody else.

This is not the entirety of the proposal either. What is it that you want to see in it.

[Doremus]

65. C'mon, spill the beans.

"I am one of those who doesn't pay federal income taxes because I'm self-employed,"


I'm self-employed and I'd love to know how you go about avoiding federal income taxes. Not only do I pay federal (and state and local) income tax, I also pay federal self-employment tax which about half the time is even MORE than the damned income tax.

Share?

[latebloomer]

67. Yup, self-employed here and wondering the same thing

Trying to scrape together the January quarterly as we speak. Argh.

[Samantha]

70. I heard yesterday businesses will be given a $3,000 tax credit

for each new position they create.

Sam

PS on MSNBC

[northernlights]

96. but will those tax-break jobs be in America?

and for Americans?

Or in America? And for green card furriners with really special knowledge of say, technical writing (because we don't have enough unemployed tech writers here)? Or special knowledge of sales (cuz murkan sales people aren't good enough) or customer service (cuz murkan c.s. people demand more than minimum to get screamed at by angry customers)? And so on...

[SheilaT]

6. It may depend a great deal on exactly

where you are. Not to mention just what kind of work you're willing to do.

I recently moved to a new city and state and have actually not had much trouble finding entry level clerical/office stuff. The emphasis here is on entry level.

You might want to consider registering with a placement agency or two and telling them you want temp work only. You won't make as much as full time permanent, and you probably won't have any benefits, but at least there will be some money coming in.

It is very tough out there right now, and will almost undoubtedly get worse, I'm sorry to say. But I can remember times in the past, like in the early 80's, when job seekers would send out hundreds of resumes and not hear back from a single company. So it has been bad before, for all the consolation that might be.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

8. I had hoped my area would help...

Texas, lots of retirees, several large employers, touristy area. But not even a job waiting tables. Geez.

I may try to locate a temp agency tomorrow when I head back out. That's not a bad idea, thanks.

[Stephanie]

42. The only way to get a job waiting tables is to walk in the door

When I used to manage, we never called in anybody based on a resume. Walk in the door (this is for restaurants/bars only, of course), ask for the manager and hand over your resume. And of course the best way is to have a friend who already works there introduce you.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

52. That's the way we did it at the restaurant I worked at...

Walk-ins only, no resume needed. Luckily I have a few contacts still at several restaurants here. I haven't walked in, having settled on that as a backup, but I have called around. It's not good.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. That's really not unusual, even in good circumstances.

Sending out resumes cold is not typically an effective way to get a job, at least not short-term. Longer term, it may yield you some results, but frankly, unsolicited resumes find they way to the trash bin unless there's an actual opening that hasn't yet been posted, which is rare.

Honestly, even in a good economy, it can take months to find a job or even an interview. I'm not saying the economy isn't bad - it most certainly is - but you're not giving it enough time at this point. Expecting some kind of response after a day or even a week is just not going to happen. Also, especially in the current climate, no one is going to invent a job opening for you even if you're the best person they've ever seen.

Don't despair, don't give up hope. I have faith that you will eventually find something, but it will require patience and persistence.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

10. I'm sure I'll find something, and you are correct about being patient...

I knew ahead of time that this would take a little time. I guess what I didn't expect was for everywhere I went, which I had thought I had targeted pretty well, that I would essentially be greeted with a big "no jobs here" sign at the front door.

It rattled me.

[NMDemDist2]

39. isn't Galveston still a mess from the Hurricane? that may be a big part

of the problem

[JeffreyWilliamson]

50. Actually you would think that...

But as businesses started to operate again, they realized their workforce had been forced to relocate. I remember hearing about openings and seeing signs all over town for a while there. Now they're all just freezing their hiring.

From what I read/saw/heard, there was a kind of in between time around October/November when there were probably more jobs here than in surrounding areas.

UTMB, (local hospital and medical school), took on massive damages and layed off thousands. Everything seemed to go into lockdown mode after that.

[Lisa0825]

9. You expected a call within one day? Rather unrealistic, especially right after the holidays.

As a recruiter, I generally get the chance to look at new applicants for all my open positions within a week's time, ideally within 3 days (right now, almost none because we had a catastrophic layoff due to Ike). Once I look at those new applications, it may take me a week or two having the position open to have a pool from which to choose the top 10 candidates to send to the hiring manager. Then it's up to the manager to decide who to call and when to interview. I never expect a call immediately when I am applying to jobs. My job is ending next week, and I have applied to about 40 positions in the past 2.5 months. On average I would say it takes a week to hear back from an employer, sometimes more sometimes less. People are also still getting caught up after the holidays, so the wait could be longer at this time.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

12. I hoped you'd see this and post something, thanks!

I know from my job that it would usually take about a week or so for the initial contact to be made, and then several more weeks for the interview process to play itself out.

I wasn't really expecting the process to be faster than that, but I also hadn't expected to be told upfront that there's nothing. And it's been pretty direct so far.

What have the responses been like during your search in general, if you don't mind my asking. What's been the ratio of companies that you have heard back from in time?

[Lisa0825]

15. Let's see....

I have applied to about 40 positions, and have interviewed with 8 companies. I had offers of interviews with about 3 others including a couple of agencies. I made it to second interviews with three companies, and am awaiting a (hopefully) final offer. I think it took me almost 4 weeks before I got my first nibbles.... but that was really close to post-Ike recovery time too. Now you have the holidays. It has been about 4 weeks since I applied to the position I am hoping for a final offer on.

I have mostly focused on companies that actually have positions advertised, so I knew there were positions. When I had time in between, I would do some cold-calling/emailing. I did get "sorry, no openings" from most of the cold contacts, BUT most were open to me keeping in touch in case things were posted later.

Even with Ike, the economy in the greater Houston-Galveston area is not as bad as most places nationally. Don't get discouraged. Remember, I have some contacts, so if you want to talk about companies, let me know. It's not a guaranteed "in" but I may know people that you can follow up with, especially at hospitals and local colleges.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

18. This makes me feel better...

I know I'm reacting to this way too fast, but it spooked me. It wasn't so much the results of the office positions I was seeking, as much as it was the backup hospitality jobs I decided to look into.

I did some human resources work for Gaido's several years back. No waiter jobs in Galveston--unheard of. We used to not be able to find enough warm bodies to fill those spots. Regardless of season. And everyone esle we talked to had it just as bad.

I am using that e-mail you sent me last week, it's helped.

[Possumpoint]

11. Good Luck and Best Wishes

I live in the Washington, DC Metropolitan area and was stunned to see the so called "Mega Job Section" in last Sunday's Washington Post only had four pages of listings. Two years ago it would have been multiple newspaper sections. There were no listings whatsoever in my areas of experience.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

13. The newspaper here has virtually nothing. n/t

[LiberalEsto]

32. The weekday WashPost is even worse

They have 7 jobs listed in the classifieds today, and there were only 7 a couple of days last week. I normally don't bother with the Post anymore, but my husband lost his job 2 weeks ago so I'm keeping my eye out. He's doing his job searching through Monster and Dice.com for the most part, since he's a database administrator.

[stopbush]

14. You need to be sending about 10 resumes a day, minimum, to jobs you're

qualified for. It's that simple.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

16. I'm big on researching...

That's kind of slowed it down a little. One thing I've learned is that there is not faster way to shut down an interview or even an introductory conversation without knowing the company you are applying at, and being able to adequately answer the question, "Why do you want to work for us?".

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. Do that research after you score an interview.

You're putting the carriage before the horse. Do whatever it takes to get an interview, then dive into research. No point in wasting your time on a company that you won't even get to talk with.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

22. That's a good point.

Perhaps I started going about this wrong. I basically approached it from the perspective of how we would counsel applicants to go about it during better times. I haven't even started to really cast a wide enough net.

[Bucky]

27. Correct answer to the question: "Why do you want to work for us?"

Answer: "Because I am hungry and I need a job. If you do not hire me, I will be forced to eat your desk."

Of course there are many much much better answers to that question, but none more honest. I've been a job interviewer, but I never asked that particular question. I think it doesn't really give me as a hirer any useful insight. I'll ask why someone likes the job field they're applying for, but never why do they want me to hire them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. It really is an egotistical question.

I mean, you KNOW the real answer - it's a friggin job!

Really, what they want you to do is inflate their ego - tell us why we're so great that you'd want to work for us!

[JeffreyWilliamson]

31. Actually it's to weed out the resume circulators and job hoppers...

A person that takes the time to really investigate a company before applying is much more likely to be a long term employee, who will be more satisfied working for you because they knew ahead of time what they were getting into.

Virtually every company we staffed for asked that question and for those reasons. Several of them made it a rule, and would automatically reject anyone who couldn't answer the question genuinely. Or perhaps some variation, of the theme, like "What do you know about us?".

[raccoon]

83. Another really dumbass question: "What is your greatest weakness?"

Jeez, what do they think you're going to say? "I'm lazy?" "I have a hard time getting to work on time?"

I think most have wised up to the "I'm a workaholic" answer.

[northernlights]

19. Only 10? Or 20? HAH!HAH!HAH!HAH!

Sorry, not laughing at you. Just in despair, going off deep end.

When my 20+ career in high tech communications with top notch company crashed back in '02, I sent out probably a HUNDRED or more resumes in the first few months.

I got 3 replies. THREE. 2 of them were RUDE REJECTIONS. Only one was interested at all -- at a 50% pay cut & I was paying my own relocation expenses.

In the 7 years since then, I don't know how many jobs I've applied for. Anything remotely related to my once very successful career. Then anything over minimum wage. Then minimum.

In that time, I got one job, with the infamous kristian konservatives basturds that poisoned me, harrassed me in my home and ultimately assaulted my animals (at which point I quit).

Yet every so often some smug, arrogant closet rethuglican/indie troll tells me to "JUST GET A JOB." I'd love to see them suffer through 7 years of nonstop rejection and outright hatred, while wathcing their hard-saved retirement fund dwindle to nothing...just in time for the global crash.

Good luck to you. Be advised, if you're not over 50, then you'll still have a chance to recover. If you are over 50, the plan is to starve you out.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

21. Wow. Wow.

That one job you did find sounds like a helluva experience.

[Deja Q]

28. Ageism is disgusting and anti-society

:(

[TahitiNut]

35. Amen. Been there; done that.

I stopped counting when the number of contacts I made went well above 1,000 ... with only three or four interviews, two that demanded bodily fluids and intrusive testing (with which I complied) and blatantly illegal interview questions. Appalling job market. It's apparently impossible to get a job when the "hiring manager" is emotionally insecure interviewing someone the age of his parents and with twice his experience ... even after paring it down in the resume. One could chalk it up to "age discrimination" but that doesn't even come close to describing the tyranny.

[BrklynLiberal]

45. We who are over 50 may be doomed to Soylent Green...

[Bucky]

20. Sending off a resume is not enough. It's barely a start

Job hunting is a full time job--probably one of the most stressful ones out there. You have to network, network, network--and sometimes be downright sneaky, to get a crack at being hired, particularly in this market.

Good luck with your hunt. It would smart to take the long view right about now and also gear up in terms of having a support network of friends & contacts who can (1) keep an eye out for opportunities for you and (2) pick you up when the inevitable dispair starts to drag you down.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

24. Networking is something I need to improve at...

And number 2 is why I posted this.

I knew everybody would talk me down, and remind me that 48 hours is a little quick to go on suicide watch. ;)

[Lisa0825]

26. True! Networking is key!

LinkedIn, Alumni groups and local networking clubs are great! I found a group called InHouston that is very active. I had personal business cards made (I designed them using free Avery software and Office Depot printed them) for only $13 to pass out at social events held by the networking groups. I put a mini-resume on the back! Turned out quite nice!

If you don't mind the dose of religion, one of the most active networking clubs in this area is Between Jobs Ministries. I have been told it's not too suffocating... just basically an opening and closing prayer. If you go to a meeting, you can get access to their Yahoo Group that sends out job leads.

[Selatius]

25. On average, I found it takes two or three weeks for an employer to get back to me.

Usually, they never bother to call back, and that's dare I say most of them. The ones that do are at least courteous enough to tell me they have nothing and that I should move on.

I'm lucky in that I know several employers, so I already have a kind-of support network. Someone among them could always throw me a part-time job if I cannot find a new job that is more suitable to paying off 1) my student loans (about 25,000 worth) and 2) living expenses (including utilities, auto insurance, food, gas, and taxes) I am no deluded enough to think I'm going to be able to afford good quality health insurance without costing an arm and a leg right off the bat.

[GoesTo11]

29. Might pick up after Jan 21

I expect some companies will see a lot of growth with $1 trillion of stimulus, but right now they don't know exactly who they are, so with that uncertainty they're not hiring yet. In a couple of months, that should change.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

33. On a lighter note, as a job alternative...

The partner cashed in some investment that he didn't remember having this afternoon and it ended up dumping $3K in our savings. I told him that should give us enough time for him to get a raise at his job, and then I can be a stay-at-home-dad. He reminded me that we don't have kids, and I told him I was counting the dog, and not to bother me later when he got home because I'll be busy watching Oprah.

[Lisa0825]

34. HAHAHAHAHA

Watching Oprah and eating bon-bons in your jammies? :rofl:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

36. Actually I thought I'd bake cookies all morning, and then eat them. n/t

I told him it would be like Bewitched. I'd see him off to work every morning, head out to the supermarket, clean house, and then have dinner waiting on him when he got home. Then, Endora would pop in and plaster him with insults. Comedy gold!

With some local drag queen as Endora, of course. My friend Joey knows them all by first name, and is constantly introducing me to them when we go out.

[Lisa0825]

71. Oh, we definitely need to go out....

You sound like too much fun! :pals:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

74. I didn't even get into who would play Uncle Arthur!

We should go out, but my friend Joey ought to be there. He and the people that casually walk up to him are the source of much comedy. You can plan an entire evening around them.

[Thickasabrick]

59. That is so cute. You have a great attitude - hang in there!! nt

[sarcasmo]

62. Peg Bundy, is that you?

[blues90]

37. Scary , it is frightening

In 2006 I looked and looked , used every single on-line site and added my resume . I got some interviews and calls and when to every automotive dealership within reasonable diving distance and never got a call back. I called them and they never even told me why I was not considered and a few said they hired a younger trainee.

I tried any and all customer service jobs and had some interviews and still even when promised no calls one way or the other .

I can assume that being close at the time to 60 has a lot to do with it . Oh they say they can't ask your age and I don't look near 60 and even tailored my resume down as far as years of experience so they would not think age . Then there are the gaps in employment even though I was employed since 1967 to 2006 and stayed at jobs more than 10 years unless I moved or they closed down or cut back.

I went to temp agencies and even tried hardware stores or anything just for a paycheck and was told they did not feel I would stay once something else came along in my field.

Suddenly near the end of 06 I did not get one interview at all even with resumes and faxed resumes sent out.

I think they know your age just when you submit your SS# or a background check and this is part of my problem where at my age they feel I am not far from retirement and there are plenty of young people just entering the work force.

I must say I is quite a shock and quite hard to take to find out you are not wanted anymore and well past your prime. Pushed me right over the edge literally.

[SheilaT]

82. I am now 60.

I was out of the workforce for twenty-five years raising kids. So my resume does not have any dates on it, just my experience and skills. I'm finding that companies and agencies that contact me ask for dates, which I give only after they're indicating an interest in me. Anyone who can do the most basic arithmetic can figure out my age pretty quickly, since the job I had that lasted ten years started in 1969. And then there's the huge gap after that one ended.

But I can say that I'm not having too much difficulty finding entry level work. Those of you that were well above entry level and who (somewhat rightly I think) aren't crazy about entry level are going to have a much more difficult time. For some noticeable percentage of the now unemployed workforce, jobs like the ones they used to have will never come back. You are also vastly overqualified for entry-level (which I'm not, it's exactly what I'm qualified for at this point) and potential employers immediately see that and aren't likely to interview or consider you for entry-level. So the other thing to consider, if you're willing to go entry-level, is leave a lot off your resume .

[Donnachaidh]

38. Try getting NO response since last JULY.

You ain't seen NUTHIN yet toots.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

41. hubby's job was eliminated in July, well actually not eliminated but

replaced with non benefited contract labor. The company is profitable, just not profitable enough for the investors. He has twenty years experience in his field, worked 18 for this company, had glowing reviews, won employee of the month twice (which took a change in the one-per-employee rule). He has been sending out a kabillion resumes, has had one interview, and no offers. My job is not stable, I expect a cut in hours or an outright layoff any day now.

We are both beyond shell shocked, and making contingency plans (selling house, cashing in 401k). I cannot believe this is happening to us. Wanting to starve out the over 50's is right.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

46. Geez...

What is happening to this country? 8 years and they've totally destroyed us. A history of ever widening opportunity for most of its history, AND IT ONLY TOOK THEM 8 YEARS. Unbelievable...

[kath]

63. That "contract labor" thing is almost always illegal. Apparently when he was in the Senate, Obama

was part of a group that said they were going to try to crack down on that shit.

Maybe hubby should contact the IRS and make them aware of the situation - they are trying to enforce the law - it cost Microsoft MILLIONS of dollars when the IRS ruled that they had inapropriately classified employees as independent contractors.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

69. i didn't know that

i will definately do that.

[kath]

73. You could do this anonymously, as far as I know. Here is the "20-factor test" used by the IRS

until recently:
http://www.oca.org/PDF/TaxHelp/IRS.20.FactorTest.pdf

Recently, this has been simplified into 11 or so factors, under three categories -- Behavioral Control, Financial Control, and relationship between the parties:
Behavioral control



Facts that show whether the business has a right to direct and control how the worker does the task for which the worker is hired include the type and degree of—

Instructions the business gives the worker. An employee is generally subject to the business' instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work:

When and where to do the work

What tools or equipment to use

What workers to hire or to assist with the work

Where to purchase supplies and services

What work must be performed by a specified individual

What order or sequence to follow



The amount of instruction needed varies among different jobs. Even if no instructions are given, sufficient behavioral control may exist if the employer has the right to control how the work results are achieved. A business may lack the knowledge to instruct some highly specialized professionals; in other cases, the task may require little or no instruction. The key consideration is whether the business has retained the right to control the details of a worker's performance or instead has given up that right.

Training the business gives the worker. An employee may be trained to perform services in a particular manner. Independent contractors ordinarily use their own methods.



Financial control



Facts that show whether the business has a right to control the business aspects of the worker's job include:

The extent to which the worker has unreimbursed business expenses. Independent contractors are more likely to have unreimbursed expenses than are employees. Fixed ongoing costs that are incurred regardless of whether work is currently being performed are especially important. However, employees may also incur unreimbursed expenses in connection with the services they perform for their business.

The extent of the worker's investment. An employee usually has no investment in the work other than his or her own time. An independent contractor often has a significant investment in the facilities he or she uses in performing services for someone else. However, a significant investment is not necessary for independent contractor status.

The extent to which the worker makes services available to the relevant market. An independent contractor is generally free to seek out business opportunities. Independent contractors often advertise, maintain a visible business location, and are available to work in the relevant market.

How the business pays the worker. An employee is generally guaranteed a regular wage amount for an hourly, weekly, or other period of time. This usually indicates that a worker is an employee, even when the wage or salary is supplemented by a commission. An independent contractor is usually paid by a flat fee for the job. However, it is common in some professions, such as law, to pay independent contractors hourly.

The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or loss. Since an employer usually provides employees a workplace, tools, materials, equipment, and supplies needed for the work, and generally pays the costs of doing business, employees do not have an opportunity to make a profit or loss. An independent contractor can make a profit or loss.



Type of relationship



Facts that show the parties' type of relationship include:

Written contracts describing the relationship the parties intended to create. This is probably the least important of the criteria, since what really matters is the nature of the underlying work relationship, not what the parties choose to call it. However, in close cases, the written contract can make a difference.

Whether the business provides the worker with employee-type benefits, such as insurance, a pension plan, vacation pay, or sick pay. The power to grant benefits carries with it the power to take them away, which is a power generally exercised by employers over employees. A true independent contractor will finance his or her own benefits out of the overall profits of the enterprise.

The permanency of the relationship. If the company engages a worker with the expectation that the relationship will continue indefinitely, rather than for a specific project or period, this is generally considered evidence that the intent was to create an employer-employee relationship.

The extent to which services performed by the worker are a key aspect of the regular business of the company. If a worker provides services that are a key aspect of the company's regular business activity, it is more likely that the company will have the right to direct and control his or her activities. For example, if a law firm hires an attorney, it is likely that it will present the attorney's work as its own and would have the right to control or direct that work. This would indicate an employer-employee relationship.
http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/appx_d_irs_ic_test.html

Here is the IRS's pamphlet on the topic:
http://www.unclefed.com/IRS-Forms/2002/p1779.pdf

Workers CAN fight this, and win. More people need to blow the whistle on this bullshit. It cheats workers.
Microsoft had to cough up $97 million for their flouting of the law: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/micr13.shtml

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

78. thanks for doing this

i am bookmarking this thread and sending this information on to others that were treated in the same manner.

[kath]

93. see my post #92, below for details and a link. Form SS-8 is what needs to be filed with the IRS.

Go for it - more employers need to be forced to comply with the law and quit using this particular method of screwing workers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

86. Many, many companies do this.

I actually quit a job because they refused to make me full-time. I took over a position where a full-timer had moved into another position (in other words they had the budget for the position, but chose to keep me as a contractor anyway. It's shit.

The problem is that building a case against a company for this type of behavior is time-consuming and difficult. Hence they only go after big fish like Microsoft, and then only rarely.

[kath]

92. But an individual can file a report with the IRS, requesting a review of worker status -

it takes a while, but if you win (ie, if they decide that indeed you were an employee and not an independent contractor) you are entitled to lots of back taxes (3 calendar years worth, but you have to file a protective claim for each of those years in order to protect your statute of limitations during the lengthy time it takes them to make a ruling) plus interest.

If this happened to you within the past 3 -4 years, you should file w/ the IRS (if it was in 2006 or later, you'd be eligible - if it was 2005, I'm not sure - would have to refresh my memory as to exactly how the statute of limitations is set up). You'd need to file a Form SS-8. There are some details here:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

Many, many companies do do this, but the vast majority of the time it's illegal. Special circumstances have to exist to make a worker a *legitimate* independent contractor - see my posts above for links.

Make those fuckers follow the law.
If you need more info, you could PM me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

95. The company in question no longer exists.

They went bankrupt years ago, and I don't have much documentation left from that time.

[BrklynLiberal]

44. Welcome to the real world of job-hunting, post-Bush.

I have been out of work since the beginning of July. I have sent out resumes and have not received one acknowledgment. I had one interview with a company to which I delivered my resume in person. After the interview, they never contacted me about the results. I had to call them to find out that I had not been considered for the position.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

48. I had just been thinking I much preferred job hunting pre-Bush...

I can see I'm not alone. I'm going to really have to dig in for the long haul here.

I really didn't expect to hear from so many people here and elsewhere how bad they've had it out there, and I just started.

And the posts here where people have run into age discrimination is just sickening.

I have a friend in Dallas that's in his mid-60's. He's doing okay because of his retirement, but has always been a worker and still wants to work because he loves it. He was let go from his last position in Human Resources back in June, and has been looking. He is lucky that he doesn't have to work, but talking with him on the phone is heartbreaking.

At his age he can't get a foot in the door. He's just not wanted anymore and he knows it, even though his experience blows every other potential candidate out of the water.

[BrklynLiberal]

76. Yes..there IS age discrimination. I am sure of it.

[acmavm]

49. Gosh, I feel sorry for ya. I see you're down in Texas. Are you applying

locally or are you willing to branch out?

You know something, there's a commercial currently running on local t.v. regarding Omaha, and it applies to the Midwest in general. Basically this armpit of a city (and the surrounding areas) haven't really been hit as hard by this economic fiasco like other parts of the country. EXCEPT for some manufacturing companies, it's still pretty good and the employment agencies still advertise jobs.

But I gotta tell ya, I would never advise anyone to move here. I mean, we took the Omaha/Lincoln area for Obama. First dem electoral vote in over 40 years. So our pissy governor is down there in Lincoln trying to make it so that all the State's electoral votes go to the overall statewide winner. Of course, this shit is a repubic.

[ogneopasno]

51. Call your local census office. I know in some areas they're desperate for workers, and it pays

fairly well.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

55. Well now...

Just pulled up that number. Thanks for the tip.

[ogneopasno]

56. Good luck to you! In some areas they're swamped, but in others they can't find anybody.

I hope something comes through for you soon.

[tech3149]

53. I quit working back in 2002 by choice

I knew I'd have to go back to work but wasn't willing to be a wage slave. My "profession" is pretty much a joke in this throw-away society, but I'd be happy doing any job that let me utilize my skills and I can get by on a pretty meager pay rate. Even being willing to work for next to nothing, there isn't much out there. Any service industry that you're qualified for will be a good choice so long as it's local and a company that understands the value of qualified employees.

I wish you luck and hope you can find something you're worthy of.

[intheflow]

54. Must be even harder in your neck of the woods

after Ike. I imagine many businesses/restaurants/hotels that would be hopping with tourists right now were wiped out. I suggest looking for work in the building trades, but since I'm sure 98% of all entities that lost property haven't received any payouts from their insurance companies (if they were even insured in the first place).

FWIW, I'm in disaster-free Denver and also not able to find a job. Been heavily, actively looking for 6 months now,, only had two interviews and only been contacted by one other agency who sent me a postcard saying they'd received my resume and would call me if I was qualified. It's been two weeks and no call yet. :( So I feel for you, Brother. :hug:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

57. I'm starting to see how not alone I'm going to be on this...

But in a way that's lifted my spirits some. That's not to say I'm enjoying hearing about all of you having a hard time finding something of course. I just mean it's somewhat comforting knowing that I'm not going to be the only one facing something like this.

And I knew I wouldn't be, but reading or hearing about it is a little different than talking to people who have been going through this.

Nice news you are finally rid of your little MPR problem, by the way.

[sarcasmo]

60. I have been looking since late April here in Michigan and have about given up.

When the wife gets her Disability pension we are moving.

[Liberal_in_LA]

61. Give it a few weeks. You sent the resumes out TODAY & YESTERDAY! It takes weeks to sort

thru apps sometimes. Yes, the job market is bad but you have just scratched the surface.

[librechik]

64. Hospitals and nursing homes need clerical staff too

good luck!

[JeffreyWilliamson]

66. The hospital here probably won't be of much luck...

Downsizing after the hurricane. But the nursing home idea isn't bad.

I've wanted to work at a job where the end goal was helping people in some way for a long time.

In a better economy, I've always wanted to start a non-profit organization. For about 8 years I've rebuilt older computers and given them to families with children in school that didn't have one. I've always wanted to turn that into something more. Take in donations of outdated pc's from libraries and schools as they upgrade, add a little more ram, a larger hard drive, linux, set it up with free internet access, and find a way to distribute the finished product either to the community or back into the schools. An older computer without all the bells and whistles could still be retooled with a lighter OS and made to get a kid online that wouldn't have access at home.

Everything I've read suggests that to start something like that you have to be prepared to live off your savings for at least a year, possibly more, while you started up the operation. Unfortunately I won't be doing that anytime soon.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

68. I had an interesting experience back in December.

I applied to four places on the same day. Within a week of my application, two of the teams I'd applied to had been laid off completely!

[blue_onyx]

72. I've been looking for quite awhile

I haven't gotten too many calls recently. The few calls I've gotten were from people I didn't trust. They called at 6:30-7 at night, wouldn't tell me what the position was which means it was "cattle call" and the "meetings" they wanted me to come to were at 7 in the evening. I told them I wasn't interested. Right now, there's not many jobs to even apply for. I hope things get better this year.

[KG]

75. i don't plan on having a job again for 18-24 months.

i've got a few off-the-books enterprises to supplement my unemp comp, but have already picked the bridge i'm going to live under as a back-up plan. :(

[lildreamer316]

77. Husband is a Dj. A DJ. and he is having a REALLY hard time finding work.

He's been out of steady, paycheck work since mid september. We struggled through until mid december, then I had to raid the IRA my mother left me (serious penalties).
Sending lots of light. I'll be thinking about you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

85. What kind of DJ?

Mobile? Radio? Club?

I was working at a DJ equipment manufacturer when the economy went to hell. Our sales went down massively.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

79. I quit looking a long time ago.

I was unable to find a job back in the mid-90s.

I had a temp job for 3 months in 1999-2000 that I could barely stand (database entry on oil and gas leases where you had to be an attorney to code the documents properly).

And I had a couple of crappy retail jobs that didn't work out. The last job I had was a temp office job for a whole nine days back in 2001. And that's it.

This is with three college degrees including a doctorate in law which is a Juris Doctor in Latin.

If you're over 40 they won't even talk to you.

Every time I see people wailing and gnashing their teeth over the horrible job market, my first thought is: What took them so long???? This has been going on for a very long time.

:wtf:

Some of us couldn't find a decent job over ten years ago.

[livetohike]

90. My experience is the same - I quit looking in 2003

and I haven't worked since 2000. I'm 56 years old now. I have an MBA and years of management experience. My husband and I chased jobs all over the country. Now we just say we retired early. It's scary out there, but we've been through it our whole adult lives.

[Buns_of_Fire]

106. My last "real" job was a contract position. In 1998.

Since then, I've worked in a sawmill, as a dishwasher/busboy, and doing occasional computer and office work for one of the local young self-styled "Captains of Industry" ("who basically had mommy and daddy set him up in business and fully expects to retire within five years," I said with a straight face).

But I basically gave up looking for a "real" job in my profession about five years ago. So now I'm just shy of 58, "retired" for lack of a better term, picking up the odd buck or two wherever I can, and just hanging around until I can collect Social Security (in 1486 days from today, as if I was keeping track) and my pension from the jerkface bank in Atlanta I used to work for.

That's, of course, assuming Social Security still exists and said jerkface bank hasn't spent my vested pension money for executive bonuses -- and the world hasn't ended on 12/21/2012 (1444 days from today, but I don't keep track of that either).

I swear, some days it's not worth chewing through the straps to get out of bed in the morning.:shrug:

[JCMach1]

80. Try cracking a job in academia

I don't think I EVER applied for a job that didn't at least have 50 applicants... Usually it was 3 digits...

Resumes go out by the dozen and interviews amount to less than a handfull each

My lesson is don't give up... you have to make a job search a full-time profession. Send resumes for every job... consider re-locating if necessary

[KillCapitalism]

81. If you think it's bad now...

just wait until unemployment hits 40-50%. Obama better have a good plan or else we're going to face major civil disorder and many millions more falling into poverty.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

84. Ridiculous.

Even during the worst of the great depression unemployment was half of that. You're just pulling numbers out of your ass.

[KillCapitalism]

87. Why do you think we couldn't hit 40-50% unemployment?

Zimbabwe's current unemployment rate is 75%, so 40-50% here is quite possible.

The main reason it never made it that high in the 30's is that we still had a manufacturing base here. Nowadays that's long gone.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

89. Gee, let's see.

For one thing we're not in the middle of a famine or cholera epidemic. And we have a functioning educational system. And transport infrastructure. And communications infrastructure. And we don't have a massive, literally dirt-poor underclass. For another thing we have a far more diversified economy. And despite what you say, we still have a manufacturing base, and manufacturing remains one of the largest employers in the US economy, employing about the same number of people as retail.

[kath]

94. what exactly is manufactured here anymore? Shoes?- nope. Clothing?- nope (only teeny quantities)

Household textiles, like sheets and towels?- Nope. Furniture? - not much. Small appliances?-Nope. Large appliances?- Maybe some, haven't checked lately. Candy?- only some - many of the big brands, incl Hershey's, have moved their plants to Mexico.

Hamburgers? - Yep - Now THERE'S a great manufacturing job!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

97. Automobiles and automobile parts. Medical equipment.

Scientific instruments. Integrated circuits. Chemicals. Telecom equipment. Airplanes and other aerospace products. Industrial tools.

Making hamburgers is not considered a manufacturing job. Not yet anyway.

[NickB79]

101. Yet 80% of the US economy is based on service jobs, not manufacturing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7814723.stm

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

104. The service sector isn't just retail.

At its most basic, the service sector is just about everything not related to agriculture, resource extraction (mining, etc) or manufacturing. It contains many economic sectors - entertainment and the news media, insurance, software and other IT companies, doctors and nurses, retail, trucking, biotechnology, finance, education, the list goes on and on. I can't think of many, if any Western industrialized countries where more than about 20 - 30% of the economy derives from manufacturing. Even Germany, which is probably the most manufacturing export-centric country in Europe derives only about 27 - 29% of its economic output from manufacturing.

Furthermore, it's not as if manufacturing jobs are somehow immune from the economic crisis. They are perhaps slightly more immune due to the fact that manufacturers have more physical capital than the average service company, but physical capital is a divided coin. A factory isn't worth that much if it's sitting idle due to lack of consumer demand.

China, for instance, is having severe economic issues at the moment because the market for its manufactured goods has slowed. Having a strong manufacturing base is no magic talisman against economic woes.

[KillCapitalism]

103. Ok then...

I'm sure you believe the government number of 6.7 unemployment is accurate.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

105. It may be higher

but it sure as hell isn't off by a half order of magnitude.

[JNelson6563]

88. Hard to believe but here's a bright spot for you

Be glad you aren't in Michigan my friend. People with PhDs are applying for $9 an hour jobs and glad to get 'em.

Julie

[datasuspect]

91. find someone with money

and figure out ways to make them more money in unique, novel ways, or providing a service they don't have the time to do, but results in significant ROI.

jobs are a thing of the past.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. Ever Heard Of Online Job Searches? Classifieds?

You might have better luck submitting your resume to companies that are actually looking to hire, as opposed to ones that, ya know, aren't.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

99. Actually, the best strategy is doing both.

There's certainly no harm in sending your resume to a company that isn't advertising its open positions. But I'd hardly use that as the only strategy. :-)

[kentuck]

100. Wait 'til next year...

There will be chaos and anarchy in the job market.

[radfringe]

102. my partner was laid off Sept 2007

from then until march 2008 - she sent out over 200 resumes, received 8 interviews - no job offers

she finally went through a temp agency, crappy pay no benefits and only a 9 month stint - but it was work. On a fluke, her resume was passed to someone at a headhunter outfit, and they called her out of the blue this past october about a permanent full-time job. She got the job, started there this past november

I expect it's going to be well into 2010 before we see the job market open up more.

[SheilaT]

107. You make a very strong case

for taking work, any work, just to have money coming in.

It bothers me a lot when someone says there are no jobs, absolutely no jobs whatsoever. Oh, yes there are. Maybe you don't want to cashier at Target or be a receptionist somewhere, but there are jobs out there. Taking temp work, no matter how crappy, can eventually pay off.

I'm going through the unemployed and looking for a job myself right now. I've recently been let go from two jobs, the first at an art gallery for "unbridled enthusiasm" which apparently the gallery owner felt was inappropriate. The second from a law firm after screwing up at the nit-picky details required by the job. But I've posted my resume on Monster.com and got a call a few days ago about a possible temp (three months) job, and have an interview with Verizon on Friday to work in their local store. I've also taken the test for Census work. Through tomorrow I have a temporary part-time job at a local mall with a jewelry kiosk. None of these are a great deal of money (although the Verizon job would be decent and have benefits) but it's money coming in, which is the important part.