"Not enough votes?" Vote anyway. I want to know who sides with me and who sides with Bush.

[Dr Fate]

I'm done with excuse #576- AKA "We don't have the votes."

Done with it.

I want a vote anyway- I want to know which "Blue Dog" & DLC DEMS side with Bush instead of with me on any given issue.

I'll bet a lot of anti-war/pro-impeachment moderates would like to know which Republicans are on their side as well.

When we stop covering for the weak links in the party, maybe- just maybe those weak links will get more pressure from the public to vote with the people instead of with the pro-war Lobbies, etc..

I'm done with accepting "we don't have the votes" as an excuse- let's have the vote anyway- a once a week or so head count is just fine with me for now.

Okay- now it's time to come up with another excuse -ready, set GO!!!!

[NYCGirl]

1. Yeah, we could use a futile gesture at this point!

:evilgrin:

[Dr Fate]

A gesture & head count is better than these countless, daily excuses.

Care to adress or attack any of my specific points?

And it's not futile- if the "conservative" DEMS and the GOP disagree with the vast majority of the people, then they can say so in a public vote- instead of hiding behind the rest of Congress.

[cassiepriam]

6. ANYTHING that can be done is not futile. There are lives at stake.

We must do the right thing, and do it now.

[cali]

2. Not just no.

Hell no! This is beyond stupid. Voting on defunding is destructive. It won't get us anything but the minority in '08. You may not like reality, but that's how it is.

[cassiepriam]

5. Time to do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may,

Stop the war. However we can.

Playing scared and being quiet is what got us into this mess
in the first place.

Time for courage and statesmanship.
Not politics.

[Dr Fate]

7. Says who? The public wants out of the war- they told us so in Nov. 2006.

If we need an agressive media blitz to counter the "they hate the troops" spin- than so be it. We can assure the public that we are doing everything we can to end the war as they demanded- but we have to try.

[cali]

11. No they didn't

It's not a monolithic voting block. No candidate ran to defund the war. Polls indicate that Americans are deeply conflicted about how to get out of Iraq, but they overwhelmingly say they don't want Congress to defund it.

[Dr Fate]

13. Let's have a vote involving "how to get out of Iraq."

We can provide whatever methods there are to choose from-we don't even have to include de-funding the troops- and put them all up for separate votes.

Whichever method on how to get out of Iraq wins, will be the one they all vote on- whether there is "enough votes" or not.

Unless you are saying that de-funding is the only way to end it- in that case, you have a very convenient Catch-22 that allows inaction- but in that case, DEMS can explain to the public that it is the only way to get us out.

I know-I know-but then we have excuse #126 rearing its ugly head: "But-but-but- if we do that- the media will be UNFAIR to us and distort our message!!" Life is tough. Fight the fucking media then like the troops have to fight everyday.

[Vincardog]

74. Do ya have a link to those polls? I have heard this and have a little problem believing it

Are you saying
"The American public does not want to leave the solgers in the firel without support"? I will agree with that.
Are you saying
"The American public wants the illegal occupation of Iraq to go on forever"?
I will NOT agree with that

[cali]

83. No. I'm not saying either.

In fact I'M not saying anything. Here's a link to polling report. I think it's the ninth question down on the page that asks do you want to leave Iraq immediately- only 21% reply in the affirmative.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq2.htm

[Hippo_Tron]

82. The American public doesn't have a clue what they want

They want to succeed in Iraq but also doesn't want us to be there anymore. This is why the people elect a Congress, to make decisions for them.

[cassiepriam]

3. I agree, I would like a head count and show of hands.

I want to see who is a Bush loyalist and who is not.

[Dr Fate]

8. And maybe the Pro-Bush voters will finally get the public pressure needed.

As it is, they seem to be hiding behind the rest of the good folks in congress who would like to get somewhere.

[cassiepriam]

9. Yep, I want to see who is doing what made public.

[whoneedstickets]

12. I'm not sure you need a vote to figure this out...

Among the Dems, look for the ones with districts in Red States where Bush won in 04 and where a one or two of the Senators is a Rethug. If they had a close race in 06 then they may be vulnerable in 08 if they lose the independent votes.

Those are the reps who will be facing the most pressure in the post-veto fight over Iraq funding. They can't simply do nothing or look to extreme. Their positions must be defensible back home in their districts. They need a reasonable bill that gives them some cover when the thug machine starts to whir in their home states.

[Dr Fate]

16. No- I do need a vote to figure it out. I want pro-Bush DEMs on record.

I'm tired of "covering" for Conservative Democrats and Republicans.

If the majority of people in a given state support the war or oppose impeachment, then fine- the DEM or Republican can vote pro-Bush. No harm, no foul. They will presumably reamain popular and electable with their majority of pro-war/pro-Bush voters.

I just want a record of it.

[cassiepriam]

33. Amazing how Rove has intimidated everyone with the thug machine.

No one can do the right thing, they are too scared.

Maybe it is time to think about the American people,
not just their own skins.

[helderheid]

4. Not one more dollar, not one more day.

[Dr Fate]

10. Come on-KICK! Where are the defenders of DUs most popular, worn out excuse?

!!!!

[mondo joe]

15. I can only say I have more trust in the expertise of Nancy Pelosi and several

others than I do people for whom this is just an abstract.

[Dr Fate]

17. "They know more than we do" Excuse #641

I still want a head count of all the clear-eyed geniuses up there.

[mondo joe]

19. Then you should run for office. NT

[Dr Fate]

21. Excuse # 323- "It's all YOUR FAULT, Mr. Tax-Payer/Citizen/Voter..."

"...leave those beautiful minds in DC alone, unless you can raise a gazillion dollars and do it yourself!!!!"

Talk about abstract solutions- give me a break.

I dont have a gazillion dollars yet- but in the present, I have to deal with who is there representing me now- and I want a head count instead of excuses.

[mondo joe]

22. Please cease your disonesty. No one said anything was your "fault". We had

an election in which candidates stated their position and the electorate voted.

Did your representative lie about something?

[Dr Fate]

23. Did they Lie? I doubt it. I just want a vote to see who is on my side and who is on Bush's side.

Nothing anyone said to get elected is contrary to voting one way or the other- it merely confirms their positions.

I never said they lied.


And sorry if you took my response to be dishonest about you- it appeared that you were saying that since I'm not willing to run for office at this time, then I cant second guess people who did and won.

I took it as you blaming me for my strong opinion as opposed to holding people in power responsible- sorry for your misunderstanding, but I stand by the comment.

[mondo joe]

24. You can second guess all you like. But please know, I voted for my representatives

- not for you. I know they are against the war, and I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say there aren't the votes.

[Dr Fate]

28. I voted for my reps too- but I need a head count of who agrees with me and who agrees with Bush.

I want to know about the reps I didnt vote for as well- as do the folks who did vote for them.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt when they say they dont have the votes-I want a vote/headcount anyway.

I'm not second guessing anyone-If the pro-Bush votes-either GOP or DEM are popular in that district or state, then no harm, no foul- then the ones who casted those Pro-Bush votes remain popular and electable.

[mondo joe]

29. You have mistaken WANT for NEED.

And your response to people doing the job they were elected to do is childish at best.

[Dr Fate]

37. LOL! See post #32- Someone already used that tired old tactic on me.

Anyway, I dont want it- I NEED Congressmen to let their electorate know who they side with. It's pretty basic.

Once the electorate finds out who is holding up the process, they will either agree with that Rep's support of Bush, or they will pressure that rep to change their tune & support the voters.

[mondo joe]

39. Childish tantrum #798: Make demands and stomp your feet. Veruka, darling.

[Dr Fate]

45. I note you have failed to adress any of my specific points and my counters to your points.

But you did manage to be unoriginal enough to cop my numerated excuse joke- and you did manage to call me childish twice.

Great argument you have there- I'm childish- end of deabte.

[mondo joe]

49. There was never a debate. Just you issuing your "needs".

And reality.

[Dr Fate]

54. At least not on your part. n/t

n/t

[Pale Blue Dot]

40. They need to SHOW, concretely, that there aren't the votes.

It's the only way to hold those who would vote against them accountable, and the only way to show regular, non-partisan voters, that they are trying to take action.

[mondo joe]

48. Hold accountable?

Is there an election coming up?

[Dr Fate]

56. People can put put pressure on their Reps to change their votes-AKA hold them accountable.

If the Reps decide to ignore them, then sure- there will be an election sooner or later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Hasve YOU written your reps lately?

that is your role in this game

[Dr Fate]

70. I even send them checks when they do good. I'm trying to hold up my end as best I can. n/t

n/t

[Moochy]

57. Representative democracy

Ahh So the unwashed masses can only hold our reps accountable during elections?

I see how it works. Thanks for explaining when and where we should hold our political representatives accountable.

[mondo joe]

64. What other means do you propose?

I construe HOLD ACCOUNTABLE to mean repercussions. Did you have a plan other than elections?

[Pale Blue Dot]

60. People like my father, who voted for Bush TWICE (see my post below)

Surely ARE thinking about the next election. I know from talking to him (and them). He's figuring that if the Democrats won't actually DO anything, why vote for them?

This is REAL, and we ignore it at our own peril.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. But they are

there have been 100+ hearings by my last count

There is a constitutional crisis building

And the vote for cloture in the senate was prevented by the Republcians

The fact the media is not telling you this, is not my fault

It is not easy to find out... but it can be done

[Pale Blue Dot]

63. The hearings better lead to SOMETHING, and soon.

If they do, we will be in great shape to not only win the next election, but also to save this whole freakin' country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Read on Watergate

I'm serious

These guys are following that game plan because they know they need to have an air tight case before the officially start impeachment hearings

Why history is so wonderful

[Dr Fate]

71. Somewhat comforting- for real.

A good bit of what you say makes sense.

But can you see why people dont trust these guys to drive the nail home in a timely manner? For years have seen DEMS cave and lose literally hundreds of times.

People just dont trust that they "know what they are doing" and I can see why.

I hope you are right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. For years the Dems have lacked two things

1.- The gavel

2.- Power to issue subpoenas

They have used both judicially over the last three months

To expect them to change the world in three months is naive.

In fact, given how slowly watergate actually moved... in comparison this has moved somewhat fast, SINCE they got the gavel

[bigtree]

14. done with democracy?

want a go at autocracy?

[Dr Fate]

18. Wanting more votes as opposed to less votes-or none at all- means more Democracy. n/t

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Quite right. Let us know where they stand.

[opihimoimoi]

25. The SHOW OF HANDS Time....I love it...How Revealing.....it will be....

[The Doctor.]

26. Sig needs fixing.

Precisely what vote are you thinking of?

[Marrah_G]

27. I want, I want, I want

I want it RIGHT NOW... I hate you , I hate you, I hate you... kick, kick, stomp, kick, kick :sarcasm:

Geezus..... it's been 2 months with far more action then we ever had under the republicans. Give them some time to get the vote and to do their damn jobs. Sorry but you just can't have what you want right this fucking minute, because Mommy Pelosi doesn't have means to get it yet. But she is working on it. We all are.

[Dr Fate]

32. Excuse/tactic #782- Compare the concerned voter/citizen/taxpayer to a child.

I'm not asking for anything radical, extreme or child-like- I'm asking for a "yes" or "no" vote so I know who sides with me and who sides with Bush. We dont need 6 extra months to get that together.

This tactic is a way for them to get the votes- once the public sees who is holding things back, the pro-bush hold-outs will feel the pressure.

I also beleive that if this becomes a popular viewpoint, then the conservative, pro-Bush DEMS & Republicans cant hide behind the rest of congress and blame everyone else.

The public needs to know exactly WHO is holding up the process here- it's not fair to the rest of the Congress to have them all take the blame in the eyes of the public.

[porphyrian]

30. I'm tired of waiting.

And, apparently some people are tired of me saying so.

[MazeRat7]

31. So ya like playin' "Whack-a-mole" more than chess do ya ? -nt

[Dr Fate]

34. No I prefer "giving themsleves rope to hang thmeselves with"

Or "Rope a dope" or "keeping my powder dry."

I also like "judo moves" and "letting them fall on their own swords"

I'm sure there are some other interenal talking points we forgot to cover.

[Individualist]

38. You forgot "the secret plan",

another worn out talking point.

[MazeRat7]

46. WTF are you talking about...care to explain the veiled references ? -nt

[Dr Fate]

47. Explain yours first. n/t

n/t

[MazeRat7]

51. Ah gezz.. sure if its that obscure

"whack-a-mole" = instant gratification (a lot like most in society)
"chess" = long term planning to achieve a favorable outcome (unlike most in society).

MZr7

[Dr Fate]

53. "Chess" is usually grouped in with the other talking points I listed.

Do a DU search and you see them used all the time by the excuse makers.

I've heard about how we play "chess" and all the other interal talking points during many a battle that DEMS lost.

It's not about any "instant gratification"- it's about letting the electorate see who supports Bush as oppsed to who supports anti-war voters (AKA the Majority)

[MazeRat7]

61. Well then by the power of my own intellect, I have stumbled on what you are calling talking points..

I guess stranger things have happened. I dont need to do a DU search to frame my point. I'm telling you what I believe based on my own observations. If that happens to be someone else's "talking point", well all I can say is Hummmm ? Go figure, I wonder why ?

I stand by my original statement which I will distill down to the proverbial bumper sticker...

"Winners play chess... everyone else plays whack-a-mole"

Peace and goodnight...

MZr7

[Dr Fate]

69. Dont forget to keep your powder dry! n/t

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I'm going to recommend a movie

it is called Amazing Grace

By the time the credits roll you will grow to appreciate what probably is going on right now... and why, as much as we both hate it, we need to have patience

Serious.

That movie (based on history) is a good solid lesson on the parliamentary system of government that we live under

So it is the British Parliament, if you think the same kind of alliances and horse trading is not going on right now?

Well there are some things that never change, even if we, in the age of the Internet, tend not to have the patience necessary

I'll also advise you to read a good, preferably comprehensive, time line for watergate.

There is a reason why they are not voting right now... solid reasons actually... and yes

War...

It took three plus years to get the votes to de fund Vietnam, and for god sakes the numbers were better

It took two years to build the coalition necessary that left Nixon two choices, resign, or be INDICTED and CONVICTED... on and they did not have the votes either when the process started.

Oh the movie also has that silly role of petitions and how sometimes it is difficult to get your will even when you have the people by your side... famous words, based on Burke but that is okay... MOB rule.

So go to the movies... and watch... you may actually understand after that what some of us, with a historical memory, have been trying to tell you

[Dr Fate]

42. I think a "yes/no" head-count vote would be an essential part of that process.

Especailly if we are to believe it would lose anyway.

What it would do would show the electorate who was on what side- the electorate could support the Rep or pressure the Rep to change accordingly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You had your votes

did you miss the non binding resolutions in both the House and the Senate... oops they didn't have enough votes in the Senate to stop the debate and vote...

Or did you miss that one?

You will them once again as Reid has said they intend to bring this to the floor every so often and force votes... and I can almost best that as the 2008 election gets closer they will get the votes

They might even get the votes to indict, which incidentally follows a historical pattern and they have far more pukes up for reelection in the Senate. You knew that right?

[Dr Fate]

52. They didnt have enough votes to stop the debate?

Fair enough- my point is they maybe they should have held the vote anyway, so the electorate could see who was holding up the process...

At the least, I think this a good tactic for the future- unless you hold unpopular, pro-Bush positions, that is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Read the wonderful and amazing senate rules

you don't get cloture, you don't get a vote

If you are going to stamp your feet and be angry, blame the framers. That rule was written by them to keep the process slow, measured and at times molasses flow faster

For the record, they have had power for three months, and they have done far more to check this out of control administration than the media will tell you

Second recommendation, start watching C-SPAN

[Dr Fate]

68. What is the reason for the House not going through with these votes?

Why cant the House have a head-count vote in instances where DUers tell me "we dont have the votes"?

Do we get to see who votes on cloture and who doesnt? I'm assuming we do, but I admit that I dont know. Also, I'm not sure if cloture is a purely concept of the Framers- it was adopted in 1917, according to the internets- but neither here nor there.

Also- I'm cool with many of the things that DEMS have taken care of- I'm not saying it's all bad.

I think Reid needs to be forcing the vote pretty much every week- if he doesnt make it clear tothe public that the GOP is 100% to blame for gumming up the works-via cloture or otherwise, then the public will continue to blame ALL of congress-including anti-war DEMS- hence Congress's current 28% or so approval rating.

I need to here DEMS with media access making a bigger noise about Senate Republicans holding up a vote with Cloture or with other methods- otherwise, DEMS will get the blame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Forgive me but you need to pay attention

the non binding went through with flying colors

And the latest military bill that puts a date to retreat has also passed the House, I believe today

[MazeRat7]

67. So I guess you got the "talking point" memo as well......

Sure wished "they" had sent a copy to me.
:sarcasm:

"Winners play chess... everyone else plays whack-a-mole".

MZr7

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. I got the memo, called understanding how the system works

and a degree in history... a masters in fact, with a minor in US History.

Knowledge of how our political system works is truly lacking...

[Pale Blue Dot]

36. I agree 100%.

And this is what the American people want, too.

My father, who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004, wants him impeached. He wants Katrina investigated. He wants the Iraq War ended.

Had the Democrats decided to stick their necks out and FIGHT for these things (and yes, that means taking concrete action, even if it fails), we could have won my father over for life. People like my father don't want excuses, they want action. They want a vote so that they know who to vote against, and even WORK against, in the next election.

When the poll came out this week that showed Congress's approval at 26%, I was not surprised. While some things have changed, in large measure it HAS been politics as usual. The Democrats have another year, at the most, to get this right. I hope that they take some risks, because that's what the American people WANT. They want representatives who will go to the wall for them.

k&r

[Canuckistanian]

41. Um, pardon my ignorance, but didn't Bush's party just lose the last election?

And wasn't that election supposedly a clear mandate for change?

It's issues like this that encourage the Nader "thirdpartyists".

Good on ya, Dr. Fate, for stating the blindingly obvious.

[Critters2]

58. That's what all the papers said. I guess not everyone got the memo. nt

[Canuckistanian]

66. They miss a lot of memos

Except those ones from the RNC.

[cali]

72. It's only blindingly obvious

to those who are obviously blind to the legislative process. And there sure are a lot of you.

[Canuckistanian]

75. The legislative process doesn't excuse this one

Did the American people vote for change or not?

And if they did, why do so many Dems vote against that change?

How do you rationalize this? What political expediency are they voting for?

Why, on God's green earth, does Pelosi have to twist arms and call in favors to get a favorable vote on something that's a slam-dunk in the public's eyes?

[Dr Fate]

77. Some dont just want to get off the Lobbyist gravy train-voters be damned, perhaps?

I'd like to know too.

[JackRiddler]

43. Bravo - thanks for being succinct & true. K&R

[Canuckistanian]

50. What could they POSSIBLY be afraid of?

A nasty item on Faux news? A tongue lashing on the floor from mental midgets? Being called disloyal to the troops? After Walter Reed, I think that meme has been smashed for good.

The "Bushies" are officially and probably forever a MINORITY in America. Any vote against his wishes and desires would probably be APPLAUDED.

I wholeheartedly agree. Vote away, and let the cowards and panderers put their mark down in history.

[The Gunslinger]

73. I couldn't agree more

win or lose I want to see who's just trying to get elected, or who actually wants to represent the voting public who put them in office in the first place.

[Dr Fate]

76. It's pretty simple isnt it- nothing "extreme" or even controversial about it.

But you would think I was suggesting that DEMS molest children or something from some of the defensive responses here.

[helderheid]

80. Sign up. Vote:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x480638