You never own your house free and clear anyway due to property taxes

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

And it's not like they're just a little chunk of change in the hundreds. Oh, no, it's thousands and thousands of dollars EVERY year so that you can pretend you OWN something.

Just one more thing that has gone haywire in relation to the money people are living on. I can see the land appreciating (hopefully) but most houses should probably be considered as depreciating assets just like cars and mobile homes unless they have had significant recent updates. I think residential property should be allowed to be depreciated (aside from land value) the same way commercial property is.

Instead of PROPERTY tax, every town and city should have a RESIDENT tax on every resident over 18 years of age. Everyone should have to declare a legal residence annually and file it with a city or town and verify with some proof of residence under penalty of perjury for falsification. Lying should have sever penalties.

It's just like going back to the Doomsday Book. I think they had a better handle on things than we do.

[rwheeler31]

1. Wow you want to know where everyone is all the time.

Who do you work for?

[grilled onions]

2. Along This Line

Seniors should not have the insult of school taxes added on (and usually the highest part of) their property taxes. There should be a defined age when seniors should not have to worry about school taxes.Many live on so little as it is and medical issues take most of their spare cash.

[Donnachaidh]

5. I'll bet the kids of those very same seniors used earlier property tax funds

To educate their own kids.

But NOW because THEY are seniors -- well, it's the ultimate "Get off my lawn" for their neighbors. Same *Fuck YOU -- I've got MINE" mentality that is sweeping the nation.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. A friend once said

to those people: "well if you're all done using that education..."

A well educated citizenry is critical to the strength of our country. I do think states, and even the federal gov't ought to be contributing far more to education, so that property taxes are not the only real support (which means kids in wealthy towns get better schools). But it's something everyone ought to be contributing to.

At the same time, seniors - and others - who are hurting ought to be helped. But one's age alone shouldn't determine that. Many older citizens are quite well off. Many of our youngest ones are in very bad shape, financially.

[madeline_con]

42. But they want someone who can read their Rx bottles to care for them.

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

54. Yep

When I was a young tween, I went through that phase where I didn't think it was fair the old lady down the street had to pay school taxes. I spoke to her about it. She told me how someone paid school taxes for her education and she was happy to pass it down. After that, the issue didn't seem so important.

[madville]

9. I would like to see a tax based on how many children you have in school

Let's just say it was $1000 per child per year from the time they enter the school system until the time they graduate. You have 4 kids in public school you pay $4000, you have zero kids in school you pay $0. You home school or send them to private school you get an exemption.

Might be a good way to slow down population growth as well, hit the baby factories in the wallet.

[hack89]

29. That's one way to kill social security

if you give me a choice like that, I would ditch SS in a heart beat, fund my own retirement and say a loud fuck you to all those seniors that eagerly accept my tax money while turning their backs on my kids.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. You want to abolish free public schools?

Make it all fee-paying? Wow. Just wow. That would be a superb way to deskill a large part of the country, and turn it into a third-world country (you couldn't call it 'developing', because it would be regressing).

[gollygee]

48. Regressive tax that attacks families

That'll play well.

[surrealAmerican]

49. That's not a tax, that's tuition.

It would just encourage those "baby factories", as you call them, to homeschool. We would end up with a severely undereducated population.

[Oregone]

20. Is that a joke?

Some demographics of society should be exempt from supporting the most vital groups?

I understand that some elderly are strapped for crash. They shouldn't be living in huge residences that have a large tax burden. As for those that do, they probably can spare to support the social system. Creating some sort of senior deduction may be in order, but to eliminate it completely is short sighted. Dick Cheney should pay property taxes.

[hack89]

28. Do my kids have to pay for seniors social security or medicare ? nt

[Luminous Animal]

31. No, they'll pay for yours.

It is a generational thing. Tell them to relax though; we paid for their education.

[hack89]

34. My point exactly

seniors have an obligation to educate the young.

[likesmountains 52]

3. nope..mine is < $600/ year....

[madville]

4. My property taxes aren't that bad

I paid $787 this year for one acre with a 1500 sq ft house built in 1994.

I do agree that you never really 100% own your home because the government always has a lein against it in the form of property and school taxes.

A community resident tax would certainly be more fair than the current system but I don't see how it would be enforced. You going to send poor people to jail for not paying their resident tax? If you don't pay your property taxes at least they can take your property.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. Well, that shows that there are insane inequities throughout the nation.

People are always selling their lifelong homes and retiring to some place totally unfamiliar because the taxes are lower and that's the only way they can stretch their retirement income.

There HAS to be something wrong with the basic equation.

[dysfunctional press]

40. you get what you pay for.

property taxes pay for things like schools and services- people want to live in an area with good schools to raise their kids...but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're there their entire lives. LOTS of people LIKE the idea of being able to relocate somewhere new and different when they retire. and if the weather is better, the cost of living and taxes are lower- that's just the sweetcream icing on the cake.

btw- did you notice all 3 versions of "there" right in a row?

[surrealAmerican]

50. I, for one, appreciate the "they're there their".

[argonchloride]

6. Good plan, we can implant a tracking chip in every person in case they try to cheat.

...

[madeline_con]

43. What about people who move every few months?

Do they pay multiple "residence tax"? :shrug:

[babylonsister]

8. Huh? Besides the property tax, I wish I owned my house; it'd be

a lot cheaper. You must live somewhere a bit more expensive than I do. Currently, our property tax is about $3,000/year.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

15. So even after your mortgage is entirely paid off, you will be paying

your municipality approx 300 a month for the privilege of owning your home. Forever and it will always be rising.

I understand where property taxes go, and I am happy to pay for shared services and burdens like: police, fire, sewer, water, parks, education etc. But I would actually prefer to get a personal bill for my share of the services. Monthly, quarterly, whatever.

And by the way, even though I don't have children, I have never begrudged one cent for public education, libraries, busses, crossing guards, etc. because I want to fund those little guys through to a happy and healthy adulthood so they can contribute to the SS pool ;-)

[davsand]

25. You DO get a personal bill for your "share of the services."

It is called a property tax bill. Usually it is an annual thing. In some places it can be paid in installments.


Sorry to interrupt your rant about property values, but up to the last couple of years houses HAVE been increasing in value according to the prices paid for them. In some areas prices have not really declined too terribly much even today.

Part of the reason we are in the shape we are currently, is because too many people chose to use their house like an ATM machine--they were COUNTING on their house to appreciate in value.

Just saying...


Laura

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. You have a point

It hacks me off to no end that folks who do not own property are allowed to vote to increase my property taxes. Those taxes went up about 20% last year and will do the same this year.

Meanwhile, rental rates here for a standard one bedroom apartment are pretty much the same as what they were a decade ago. Rental properties here are overbuilt so it is the owners not the tenants who are impacted by property tax increases. Renters here have no way of measuring the impact of tax increases and are not negatively impacted by increased rental rates.

I would not complain if these new tax increases were being used to fund education. But, no. The recent property tax increases here are for building a new convention center and sports stadium and for major city road repairs necessitated by years of neglect and for other long term planning projects which will benefit all residents. Some property owners here have seen their taxes increase 600% in the past year.


Edit to add: 1500 square foot house built in the mid 1950s on a quarter acre lot with a total assessed value of $100,000 = annual property taxes in excess of $1,700

[Fumesucker]

46. Renters also pay property taxes.

Albeit indirectly, the landlord *will* pass on the property taxes in the form of increased rent.

Only people who really, really need the educational system personally fail to understand this.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

11. Many people in my county are appealing their property tax assessments.

The county admittedly is using criteria from a year and a half ago when housing
prices were 17% higher.

[walkaway]

12. I live in a two bedroom cottage and pay $9500.00 per year

in taxes. The problem isn't the people over 18yrs old. It's the school age children that really increase the tax burden. And you can depreciate all you want but someone has to pay for the schools and the the pensions and health insurance for the police and other town workers.

I live in a tiny town of 5,000 people (small for Bergen County N.J.) with very little commercial property. We tried to merge our services with the towns around us but our tax base is too high and other towns don't want their's to rise by combining police or schools with ours.

The town is very well run and it costs what it costs. If someone pays less then someone else has to pay more.

[stillcool]

13. Damn..sounds like more of that 'freedom'..

I keep reading about. You think that renters should pay your property tax, as well as their landlords? Make the poor pay more, so you don't have to?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. No, I think all residents whether they are renters or owners use municipal services

like: water, sewer, police, fire, schools, parks, libraries,roads, etc.

I think people should pay the same amount regardless of whether they rent or they own.

The road doesn't know if you rent or own
The teacher doesn't teach according to whether you rent or own
You get the same library card whether you rent or own
They don't have trash barrels that say "Renter" or "Owner" on them.

If an individual is paying for their own municipal services as a renter, there is no charge for an owner to "pass through" to them, so a renter should not be paying double. They should be paying once. Just like the owner. Note: I am saying to give all kids a free ride, because that is a societal responsibility.

[davsand]

27. Most landlords figure the cost of rent into their operating expenses when they calculate rents.

Renters do pay property taxes but it is usually paid to the LANDLORD as a part of the rent rather than to the people who issue that tax bill.



Laura

[stillcool]

30. So if I can afford to buy a home...

I don't have to pay any more tax, than my 18 year old daughter who is working at McDonald's and renting a room?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

32. Do you use any more or different municipal services than she does?

Don't you both have the same police department, fire department, water, parks, trash removal, etc.?

Why should you pay MORE than your daughter or anyone else for that matter? You already have maintenance and upkeep expenses for your property that have nothing to do with shared municipal responsibilities. It's not like you're asking your daughter to help you pay for new windows or something.

You and your 18 year old daughter live in the same town and have exactly the same demands on that town.

[stillcool]

35. It's not really a matter of paying more..

She pays rent. Her rent includes property taxes. She's paying for more than 4 walls. You think when her landlords property taxes go up her rent isn't going to be raised? You think she's 'getting something for nothing'. Sell your house! Move to a place that has lower property taxes.

[Oregone]

17. I enjoy paying my $1200 dollar a year property taxes

Even though I don't live there anymore...

But anyway, its a damn decent progressive method to evaluate "wealth" and tax according (though there are exceptions).

I use to work in the schools and see what that money pays for. I used the local roads and enjoyed the county improvements in my old area (on the ocean). I also know the destitute nature of the residents that live there, who either rent or pay a few measly bucks on their meager residence. I own an ocean view beach home in an economically repressed area. No way in hell should I be able to enjoy that priviledge and isolate myself from those in the area that do not.

Most of the wealth in my old area is held by non-resident vacationers who enjoy their coastal property. My neighborhood alone consists of 2/3rds vacation homes (mine included). These people are not residents. They are just rich people that want to use and enjoy the area. Why should they be able to, as non-residents, as the most wealthy property owners, be able to use and enjoy the area and not contribute to sustaining it? Horseshit.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

23. You have a valid point about absentee owners and resort areas

And I can personally relate. There are definitely many areas of the country that have small populations year round yet swell seasonally. Hmmmm . . . Damn! I know there's an answer - I just haven't thought of it yet. But your comments are spot on about a giant flaw in my theory.

[many a good man]

18. Ought to freeze property taxes for those on fixed incomes

Subject to needs test, of course.

[walkaway]

39. I pay over $800 a month in property taxes...

If I have to cover the taxes of people who cannot afford that it seems a little absurd. If I couldn't afford to live here I would sell my house and move to a less expensive place to live.

Should I pay for their yard work too?

[geckosfeet]

19. I like the residence tax idea. If you live in the town, have kids in school,

use public facilities, rely on municipal law and fire services, you should pay town residence taxes. Perhaps land owners would be required to pay a higher rate.

In theory, that should significantly reduce real estate taxes - which would be converted to residence taxes. Realistically, they won't go away. But a 50% reduction would be fabulous.

[flvegan]

21. Every parcel of real property has a tax assigned to it.

Any resident (renter) would be paying their share figured into, well, the rent.

What if you move 6 months into the year? Taxed twice? Prorated tax? Just can't move?

You do own your house free and clear when you pay any lien on it. It's called fee-simple title. Taxes are maintenance costs for the community/city/county/municipality.

Jesus. Gotta be kidding me.

[Oregone]

22. BTW, Id just reside in my meager home 183 days of the year...

And enjoy my mansion the rest of the time. Fuck the poor and the children.

[madeline_con]

44. You snowbird!

:P

[Igel]

24. You've just reinvented the poll tax.

Not the quirky "pay to play" tax, but what the poll tax originally was: A tax on each poll, or head. (The folk etymology attached to the word 'poll tax' makes an odd sense, since voting is a kind of head count.)

But if you make voting contingent upon it, then you manage to have it both ways.

We can call it a capitation tax now, if we want to.

Not usually considered a progressive tax, by any means, although exempting minors is a nice touch.

Perhaps a window or fireplace tax would be more appropriate?

[Oregone]

26. Seems like it could also be used as an admittance fee to keep the rabble out of certain areas

Whenever people start into the elimination of one tax or another (besides sales tax), it normally reeks of right wing propaganda.

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. So you go from never owning your house to never owning your ass.

And the idea that "most houses should be considered as depreciating assets" is historically ignorant.

How would the homeless pay your "residence" tax? What exactly would you do with people who couldn't pay?
Sounds like your only option is debtor's prison or slavery.

Everyone pays real estate taxes; some just pay it more directly.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

36. Here is one of my most basic issues with property taxes

The inequality that they build into our daily lives from day one. Kids in a rich community go to a school that has a plantetarium and an Olympic swimming pool while the kids the next town over don't have chalk or books.

THAT is what is wrong with running our cities and towns on property taxes. I put an alternative out there because I think one is needed and I think people can look at how we divy up shared responsibilities and expenses differently from how we do it now.

Maybe a residence charge/tax, whatever should be made at the STATE level and then distributed to the towns/cities on some formula based on the census, school population, registered employees paying state income tax, who knows what.

I just know that there has to be a better and more equitable and more fiscally sane way of doing things other than the way we are doing them.

I don't know that the homeless can be said to be residents of anywhere, so, no, I wasn't planning on seizing their cardboard boxes or raiding the underpass. Debtor's prisons and slavery, I won't even bother with a comment.

As to calling me "ignorant" about the historical appreciation/depreciation of homes, I wager that I am more up to speed on that than most. There is a point where an aging, unimproved home becomes functionally obsolescent and the cost to improve is more than the cost to rebuild. Have you ever heard the word "knock down"? Have you ever seen a real estate ad that says "value in the land" or an ad that says "handyman's special"? There is a LOT of unimproved, aging, decaying, housing stock in this country and I was making a stab at addressing that. Historically, aside from bubbles, house appreciation is slow and steady and mimics overall inflation.

So you don't agree with me - fine. How would you fund a better quality of life for every single person in your town?

[Luminous Animal]

41. Property taxes don't only address "improvements"

to individual properties. They address services to which improve the value of the property over time. The obvious being schools and not so obvious, water and sewage, sidewalks, tree trimming, etc. In a sane capitalist society (remember the one that we used to have), property is equity, and a community that can hold on to that equity and pass it down to their progeny is more likely to be stable. That is, they will vote for things, including taxes, that are in their own best interests to maintain that which will benefit their children. One of the reasons why African Americans, as a percentage of the population, have been mired in poverty, is laws, conventions, and bigotry that barred them from owning property, building that equity, thus, by design, barring them from having an appreciable asset to pass down to their children.

Part of the privilege of owning property, that piece of land that, in it's most basic sense, belongs to the commons, is paying for that privilege.

As for those, "handyman's specials", I'm not really sure why you bring that up but anyone who owns one can appeal to have the property taxes reduced to reflect the value of the property.

[ROakes1019]

37. home free

We own our house because we inherited it and we don't pay taxes because we're over 65 and have homestead exemption.

[The Wizard]

38. No free lunch

"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society,"
(Justice Oliver Wendell Homes)
Soak the rich.
We are engaged in class warfare, and the corporate owned media has a large percentage of the middle and low income tax payers convinced the wealthy pay too much.
You see trickle down is all about job creation----------------in Asia.

[LeftishBrit]

45. Doing just what you suggest is what finally brought down the Thatcher government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax#20th_century:_community_charge

If such tax is equal for each resident, then it is very regressive. It penalizes the poor disproportionately, as the tax increases with the number of people living in a house, rather than the value or size of the house. Also, if registration is rigorously enforced, this has worrying implications for civil liberties; and if it is less rigorously enforced, it can lead to a significant group of mostly poor people who don't vote or use certain public services for fear of being forced to pay the 'poll tax'.

[surrealAmerican]

51. While I agree that property taxes are not the best way ...

... to fund local services, I don't think your proposal is any more fair. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use income taxes?

[FreeStateDemocrat]

52. Any state that has an income tax doesn't need to maintain the large cost of the property tax

administation bureaucracy. It's a hustle to disguise the huge tax burden that would be apparent when revenue was raised through income tax only. Millions are wasted ever year with an unfair and complicated system of appraisals, appeals, collection and political appointees that infest the property tax sham.

[drbtg1]

53. Here's something I don't think you thought of

You said "I think residential property should be allowed to be depreciated (aside from land value) the same way commercial property is."

I'm glad you made the exception for land, because commercial land isn't depreciated either. However, when commercial real estate is depreciated, it's done over 39 years. If it's sold before full depreciation, the amount not depreciated is part of the basis. The amount that is depreciated is NOT part of the basis, hence capital gains are triggered.

Residential property (i.e. your home) keeps its basis intact, but if you were able to depreciate it, the basis is reduced and you'd get one hell of a tax bill when you sold it.

[NashVegas]

55. Renters Pay For Their Landlords' Income, Assets, and Property Taxes

We pay our fair share, and then some.

My landlord's property tax bill is covered in two months' rent. She has a good deal, and she gives *me* a good deal, compared to many other landlords in the area.

Too many people who bought into RE as an investment in the last four years turned their assets into rental properties, are taking renters for a ride.