Nekkid Ladies: The Ultimate Accessory

[shance]

Nekkid ladies: The ultimate accessory



"The new cover of Vanity Fair, shot by famed photographer Annie Leibovitz, is (understandably) pissing some folks off. I mean, damn."

"I think Art Threat magazine says it best:

The image isn't just striking because a woman appears at first take to be completely naked, with her back to the male gaze allowing no revealing features like a face or god forbid a personality to emerge, but because she is embracing the lead from the Sopranos, who stares back at the male gaze with the look of someone who is about to do violence to another.

As he sits and asserts white male power articulated by stance and especially by relation to the disempowered woman, he also has one hand around her, disturbingly clutching her flesh so vigorously it could only be described as violent."

What do you think?

http://www.feministing.com/

[MonkeyFunk]

1. it's a great photograph...

but I love Annie Leibovitz.

[kitkat65]

2. Bada Bing!

[Firepit 462]

152. HA !!!

My girlfriend and I are addicted to the show and have gone thru the first 5 seanons thru NetFlix.

[Mojorabbit]

3. The red shoes

are a weird touch.

[TahitiNut]

51. High heels accentuate the calf.

That's regarded by many as erotic. :shrug:

[Mojorabbit]

78. It is the color I was commenting on

and perhaps it is meant to be erotic. It is the only bright thing in the photograph and caught my attention.

[WinkyDink]

122. Well, they certainly remove this photo from the realm of Botticelli!

[knitter4democracy]

157. They're an old archetype--loose woman or prostitute.

Red is a powerful color, but red on a woman's feet usually means she's either in charge of her sexuality or uses it for power or money. I'm just sayin' . . . it' an old archetype that they're probably exploiting.

[Poiuyt]

4. But she's not nekkid

[Atman]

5. It's sitting on my coffee table right now.

I bought it day before yesterday. All I thought was "Nice photo...and a feature about the Sopranos! Cool." Some people just over-analyze shit too much. It is a very good cover shot, and it get people talking about it...exactly what VF wants.

.

[shance]

10. You're probably not a woman.

What interests me, is the amount of sensory overload we in this consumer addicted society absorb.

We have become in fact desensitized to what should be somewhat alarming or at least thought provoking, even disturbing.

This woman is being used as window dressing - a fur stoll if you will.

Its diminishing of who she is. Her head is turned - as if she is just like the title says, an accessory.

[Atman]

13. Yes, she IS being used as window dressing...because she is not the subject

She is a prop. The subject is Tony Soprano. It reflects the flavor of the show perfectly.

And no, I'm not a woman. At least, not tonight. ;) Here's the other magazine I bought at the same time.



Come to think of it...maybe I'm just an overgrown teenage boy.

My mail list confounds the demographers...I subscribe to Organic Style, Natural Home, Playboy, Transworld Snowboarding, and Utne Reader, too.

.

[SoCalDem]

16. Women have long-been an "accessory"

Even companies/corporations "use" them as accessories to show how "enlightened" they are..but when push comes to shove, the guys will always sell out the woman.

[Stephanie]

36. I don't know. She's bigger than him. She looks like she could take him.

Eyes of the beholder.

[shance]

83. But why do women have to be naked and men are clothed?

isn't there something something wrong with that picture when it happens all the time?

[WiseButAngrySara]

103. Yes . It's revolting. It's disgusting. It's wrong. ...n/t

[dysfunctional press]

125. she's not naked.

besides- women's bodies are much more attractive than men's bodies...at keast the men's bodies in the sopranos crew, anyway.

[Cleita]

147. I get your distaste, but from a personal point of view, there

aren't many men I would like to see naked either.

[MilesColtrane]

89. None of the people in the photograph are "who they are".

They are charactors.
James Gandolfini isn't Tony Soprano. And, the model isn't his mistress.

Describing the picture as somewhat alarming, at least thought provoking or, even disturbing are three phrases that fit "The Sopranos" pretty well.
Those are some of the reasons that it will go down as one of the best series ever made for television.

[Beelzebud]

158. Was the woman that posed with him a woman?

I'm sure she's so upset about becoming a model and getting the front cover of a popular magazine.

[Kelly Rupert]

6. She's his stripper, and it's art.

He owns the joint and everyone in it. She is little more than his chattel--but that's not specific to her. See, he looks "white-male empowered" because he's a mob boss, who owns everyone he is in regular contact with. People, to him, are either tools or decoration. And even yet, he's not fully secure in himself or his grasp on his world. He knows that the only thing that binds people to him is his power over them, and that power can be stripped away. Power can be betrayed, power can be siphoned away, power can be usurped in a single gunshot.

It's a fucking brilliant cover, IMO. It's a study into the very essence of an extremely-well-developed, sympathetic character who very clearly would be the "bad guy" in any number of shows.

[shance]

12. Interesting, insightful points Kelly.

n/t

[ComerPerro]

22. nice analysis

[Canuckistanian]

26. Good analysis

It's HIS point of view. We're not supposed to admire or praise it.

And a good phrase, "People, to him, are either tools or decoration".

[Eric J in MN]

46. Does the woman in the photo play a stripper on "The Sopranos"? NT

NT

[Kelly Rupert]

55. How could one tell?

I'd assume she does, but there's really no way to tell. In the picture, she's a totally replacable body devoid of any personality.

[dysfunctional press]

126. probably not- but she's representative of them all...

that's why you can't see her face.

[BoneDaddy]

100. EXactly

You get it.

[trumad]

106. Perfect description

Deeply reflected and far more insight than the knee-jerkers who wouldn't know a Soprano if Paulie hit them upside the head.

[BoneDaddy]

114. LOL

Very good analogy. Life is life. It isn't PC, it isn't always perfect, or generous. That picture is a work of art as it portrays the tortured soul that is Tony, his addictions, his fears, his weaknesses. If anything, the male bashing or victimized extremist crowd should be able to see this as a comprehensive collection of what is wrong with Tony Soprano and what he represents. But typically they don't look very deep.

[hedgehog]

112. I tend to agree.

The picture challenges our assumption s of women as chattel by showing us what kind of person treats women as chattel.

[Nevernose]

7. Photography vs, Art

If you look at it more than half a second, it's photography. If it makes you think on (almost) any level for more than half a second, it's art.

[Marr]

8. His hand is positioned that way to cover her garment.

I'm really surprised at the people who take offense at this sort of work, by the way. It seems strange to me when I have to argue with otherwise liberal people about why they don't get to decide what is or is not art.

[BoneDaddy]

101. so true

there are people on the left who are more into censorship and judgement than those on the right. They bore me every time.

[Codeine]

202. They don't bore me.

They piss me the fuck off. How dare they make the same decisions that the religio-fucks on the Right make, only bothering to change the reasons?

[MedleyMisty]

9. My first reaction is to back away and go somewhere else

I was sexually abused as a kid. I don't have good reactions to things that objectify women, and I've learned it's best to just block them out to the best of my ability.

[Jonathan50]

11. In actual fact a good looking woman is the ultimate accesssory for a man..

I've found that very often people's attitudes toward me change considerably after they meet my wife, who is still quite good looking in her late forties. I'm unremarkable looking and follically challenged.

My wife at 46 and my son in law..

[shance]

15. How about instead of "accessory", your "partner" or even "better half".

that always flatters our mates.

;)

[Jonathan50]

35. I used the term "accessory" because that was in the OP..

That's not the way I normally think..

We're old hippies, I think maybe cannabis has a preservative effect. :hippie: :)

[shance]

48. Absolutely. What I wouldnt do for America to get a re-charge from the sixties.

Better yet, what if we could start over with everything we now know now and go back to November 21, 1963.

I think this world would be a heck of a lot different and more peaceful.

At least I hope.

[Bucky]

53. Actually the 60s, including the hippies from the 60s, were remarkably sexist

You didn't see real power sharing and feminist attitude adjustments in the counter culture until the 70s. Gloria Steinem and her contemporaries changed the world more than we realize and quicker than we credit them. Look at the old hippie movies from the 60s and you'll see lots of objectification of women, casual rape jokes, and surprisingly traditionalist views of women's roles even within the counter culture.

[Jonathan50]

65. The hippie movies weren't necessarily made by hippies...

You are confusing Hollywood with reality.

In my personal experience hippies were and are quite egalitarian.

Yes, there are certainly exceptions to this rule but aren't there to every rule?

[shance]

79. That's true Bucky. I was still a little too young to appreciate the sixties

n/t

[Bonobo]

87. "What's wrong with being sexy?"

[Cleita]

148. Yes, the feminist movement was born of this sexism when the

women found out they were still doing the subservient things, like cooking, washing and sex on demand for the counter revolutionaries like their mothers did.

[noamnety]

14. vanity fair consistently does this shit

I think I was the only one that was pissed off by their green issue, and I held my tongue here (for once) while everyone else sang its praises. But it was a modified version of the same crap, where the men are men, and the women are - well, I don't know what the hell they are. Not serious intellectual people, that's for damn sure.








Men:


Women:

[Atman]

17. There is a tried and true axiom in marketing...

Women will buy stuff targeted toward men; men won't buy stuff targeted toward women.

Thus, my wife and I both enjoy any of the covers you've shown. But you'll never in a million years catch men buying a copy of "O" or "Martha Stewart Living." It's just the way it is. We already bitch about the decline of the printed journal...let's kill it off some more by marketing to a non-existent Utopian demographic, shall we?

.

[shance]

20. I don't see it as "marketing", I see it as conditioning, branding and brainwashing

And dehumanizing to both women and men, however it is much more used to "market" and brand women.

[noamnety]

Are you saying you wouldn't buy a magazine

if the cover had a fully clothed woman on it?

[Atman]

47. What? How do you get that out of what I said?

I simply said: Women will buy Pickup trucks as well as "chick cars" like a Pink VW Cabriolet. Men won't buy a pink Cabriolet.

It's perfectly acceptable for women to buy men's clothes. When men do it, well, not so much.

And it isn't conditioning I'm talking about...it is marketing. The conditioning you speak of may well exist, but it's another subject. I'm talking about what will sell a magazine geared towards both men and women...women won't think twice about purchasing a magazine with a beautiful half-naked woman on the cover. Witness Cosmo, or any women's magazine in the supermarket checkout line. But when men buy "Men's Health," they're called "gay." (BTW, I dig Men's Health. I think it's a riot...but as I stated, my particular taste in periodicals is kind of eclectic). Again, I'm talking about marketing, not society.

.

[noamnety]

58. Are you saying men in general

wouldn't buy the same magazine if the woman on the cover was fully clothed?

Do you think corporate profits are more important than whether or not we condition girls and women to learn they are valued more as sex objects than as full humans?

[Atman]

72. No, I'm saying none of the words you're trying to put in my mouth

Not even close. Just read what I wrote. That's what I'm saying. Nothing more, nothing less...you're trying to read all sorts of heavy meaning into it which I didn't even imply.

I'm saying that a basic tenet of marketing is that women will buy stuff made for both sexes, men won't. If you want to make that statement all about conditioning and the value of women, then go right ahead. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that certain stuff sells to certain demographics, and that's the ONLY thing the editors are ultimately concerned about...appealing to their target demographics.

.

[noamnety]

91. Here's what you said:

"let's kill it off some more by marketing to a non-existent Utopian demographic,"

That was said in response to a complaint about naked (or seemingly naked/scantily dressed) women being on the cover of Vanity Fair.

The implication is that if nothing were different except that the women on the cover were fully clothed, it would kill sales, because men who would buy it if the women were fully clothed is a "non-existent Utopian demographic."

If it's a nonexistent demographic, in your opinion, you're basically saying niether you nor other men would buy the magazine if the women on the cover were fully dressed.

[Atman]

109. Okay.

:eyes:

"All generalizations are false."

Think about it.

.

[Occulus]

85. Or clothed in a more interesting way

The way he's grabbing her, a suit of chains might have been appropriate.

At least it would have some kind of artistic merit that way, if the obvious metaphor in the original is taken as a given...

[TahitiNut]

73. "Men won't buy a pink Cabriolet."

I would. I wouldn't buy a pick-up truck, either. I drive a red convertible. I want the car to be visible - not for any 'ego' thing but because a visible car is a safer car. For some, the downside is traffic cops. Red cars get more speeding tickets. That's not a problem for me because I don't speed.

:shrug:

"Real men don't eat quiche." Well, I do. Love it. :eyes:

[Atman]

74. A "red convertible" is NOT a "pink VW Cabriolet"

What make and model? RED is a very masculine color, and I'd bet money you're not talking about the Volkswagen Cabriolet, as I was.

I also owned a red convertible -- a 1968 Camaro convertible. It wasn't any pink VW, I can tell you that much!

.

[TahitiNut]

75. I didn't say it was. Read much? I said "I WOULD."

Gee. Funny how even the simplest words pose difficulties for some. :shrug:

I don't personally consider the difference, in terms of the reason I gave(!), to be very significant. If you do, fine. But that's another subject. I spoke for myself ... after I saw someone attempting to speak for me as a 'member' of some class. Inaccurately.

[Atman]

107. Why so defensive...your own words were "I drive a red convertible."

It's in your post. Lighten up dude...I'm not accusing anyone of anything...I can believe the tone some people are taking. I'm just telling you what anyone in marketing will tell you. I've been in the business virtually my entire career. I'm not casting aspersions or making accusations. I'm simply stating a fact about the business of marketing. Now OF COURSE the rules will not apply to everyone 100% of the time. Why do we even need to go there? So many people do that -- you make a general statement and people get their panties in a was as if you were pointing a finger directly at them.

But in the case of you post, I made a general statement and you replies with a specific statement. Tahiti, sorry to tell you, but you stated flat out "I drive a red convertible." My point wasn't about red convertibles, though. It was about pink VW Cabriolets. I'd say take your "read much?" comment and do something with it, but then I'd just sound as much like a tool as you.

:hi:

.

[AlCzervik]

176. i have a black vw beetle convertible and it's not a pink vw cabriolet.

pink really isn't my color, i wear black a lot. Red is also a good color.

[Clark2008]

95. I'm a woman and I wouldn't buy ANYTHING pink.

In fact, as a pregnant woman expecting my first daughter, I'm a little saddened when I go to the stores and nearly all the baby clothes for girls are pink.

I hate that color. I'm olive complected with dark auburn hair and hazel eyes. Pink looks like shit on me and, more than likely (since my hubby is dark, too) will look like shit on my daughter. It washes out an otherwise beautiful complexion.

BTW, all my cars up until this last one I bought in 2006 were red. The current one is a pewter/charcoal.

I would never buy a pink anything. :puke:

Just some food for thought.

[Atman]

108. There are exceptions to every rule, aren't there?

BTW, my wife felt the same way about maternity clothes (congratulations, btw!) to the point where she took to making her own. Everything in the Mommy stores looked like sailor suits or costumes of some sort. It's probably all designed by men. I can't believe any woman would want to dress like Donald Duck (except with pants, of course).

.

[noamnety]

21. oops - double post (nt)

[shance]

18. Checkmate Fern*** You've affirmed what I have observed as well.

Why is it that women always have to take our clothes off to get a cover?

Men just seem to use womens' bodies to hide behind and/or use as again, the "accessory".

Or as you showed with the "powerful men" - how they are photographed to be taken seriously.

As if we should take the Bush Administration seriously......certainly not in the way they would like us to.

Part of it is certainly self inflicted by us as women, on the other hand it is so many women's survival.

[ComerPerro]

23. don't complain, its the work of a female photographer.

[noamnety]

27. I don't care whose photo it is

It's still contributing to the same old cycle of exploiting, demeaning, and dehumanizing women.

[ComerPerro]

28. Yeah, especially this one here:

[noamnety]

32. If there's an exception, clearly the pattern doesn't exist.

(that's your point, right?)

[ComerPerro]

34. my point is, you are overreacting and just looking for anything to complain about

[noamnety]

39. You're being overly sensitive and shrill.

Now that we got those niceties out of the way, let's look at more images.











Can you think of any reasons why being bombarded with these sorts of images of women, day after day after day might be damaging to girls and women?

[ComerPerro]

41. unlike your images, mine was relevant for several reasons.

not only did it counter your argument that this is how Vanity Fair depicts men vs how it depicts women, but it was also a very famous photograph by the same photographer in the OP.

Bet you were happy as shit when the last AG decided to do something about this indecency, and had offensive statues covered...

[noamnety]

54. Oh, let's do some google searching

a google image search for vanity fair covers.

First page:
Demi Moore, view looking up her leg which is exposed almost to her crotch
Demi Moore, naked
The green cover - three guys in business attire, one woman clearly NOT in business attire
a group of women in deeply plunging necklines, one sprawled out like she's drunk
a man in a conservative suit
another man in a conservative suit
a relatively neutral couple
an angry fully dressed man with a spaghetti strapped woman posed so the curve of her ass is prominent, and chest is bulging out of her dress
a woman in a low cut strapless dress with the "i'm stupid and drugged up" vacant look (compare her expression to depp's)
another fully dressed man with a bare-backed woman who has no face
a woman in a bikini
a man in a suit
another man in a suit
another neutralish couple
a gaggle of underage women being marketed as "the hottest teens"

Yeah, I think there's a pattern here.

[ComerPerro]

56. yeah, damn those evil men

nevermind who actually took the photos

[noamnety]

59. you seem fixated on a nonexistent accusation that men are evil

You can spend the thread debating yourself on that point if you like, I suppose. Nobody else appears to be involved in that conversation.

The rest of us are discussing whether there is a pervasive pattern of using images that are degrading to women in marketing, and specifically in Vanity Fair, and whether that is offensive and damaging to women or not.

[ComerPerro]

60. Interesting topic. But its been done:

http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=4021&department=BLI&categoryid=femfacts

[Jonathan50]

68. It's a fact of evolutionary psychology ...

That men are attracted to healthy looking women with clear skin as potential mates.

It's also a fact of evolutionary psychology that women are attracted to men who will be good providers as mates.

The healthy looking woman is more likely to produce healthy progeny and the male good provider is going to be able to better support the children a woman will bear.

These attitudes are hard wired into us by evolutionary pressures.

Yes, modern marketing takes these proclivities and stretches them beyond all reason, but that doesn't escape the fact that these proclivities exist in the first place without marketing.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

174. "Evo psych" gender theories are regularly debunked

There is a plethora of information in books and on the Web, if you will bother to look for it, that is critical of their flawed methodologies and assertions of essential human nature that are often based on little more than speculation. But this simplistic Mars/Venus view of complex human behaviors fits perfectly with comforting stereotypes and allows people to rationalize their behavior by claiming it's "hardwired" into them. And the media loves evo-psych. Any excuse to reinforce those gender roles and keep that marketing machine going.

Furthermore, you even acknowledge that marketing takes that evo-psych that you believe in to absurd extremes, yet you defend that same marketing using the following circular reasoning: "....but that doesn't escape the fact that these proclivities exist in the first place without marketing."

[Jonathan50]

199. I've been reading the evolutionary psychology mailing list for quite some time now.

And I haven't seen any "debunking" of the concept.

There is quite a bit of debate over the details of those theories though.

One interesting thing I learned from the evo psych mailing list is the reason too much alcohol makes you get dizzy ..

It seems the inner ear is the body's poison detector, when one ingests poison the inner ear starts sending "dizzy" signals to the brain and you puke to expel the poison. Ethyl alcohol is a poison in significant quantities.

Cool, eh?

[Jonathan50]

200. Let me put it this way..

Two younger women, identical in every way except one is quite attractive, the other quite unattractive. Which one is going to have the greater choice of potential mates?

Two middle aged men identical in every way except one is wealthy, the other lower middle class. Which one is going to have the greater choice of potential mates?

Do you think the answers to these questions will hold true across different cultures?

How about in Rome during the time of Caesar?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

205. The attractive young man and the wealthy middle aged woman would also be more successful.

Lifespans were quite short until fairly recently and money hasn't been around long enough to be a factor in human biological development so young, healthy specimens of both genders would have the upper hand. Why would our prehistoric female ancestors have wanted old geezers? I'm also skeptical of these claims that certain attributes correspond with fertility, i.e., facial symmetry, clear skin, waist to hip ratios etc. Really, the best way to establish fertility is past fertility. If that were really the compelling issue in mate selection for males, then they would seek women who have proven their fertility through childbirth. Why on earth would virginity be a prized characteristic, as it has been in so many cultures throughout history? Evo psych can't answer these questions, neither can it prove any of its theories at the actual genetic level.

[TahitiNut]

69. From the OM ...

"... white male power articulated by stance and especially by relation to the disempowered woman ..."

[opiate69]

76. I can think of a reason why the bottom picture isn't damaging to women..

there is nary a woman in it.

[MilesColtrane]

90. I'd like to point out that the Chanel ad, is a picture of a man boxing his own shadow.

Egoiste platinum is a mans cologne.

I guess that image exploits men's bodys and portrays them as inherently violent?

[noamnety]

97. The media likes to romanticize male violence

(see image in the OP).

And it likes to romanticize women as being helpless and/or vulnerable.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

45. yeah, I am a chauvinist. All men are evil, we hate women, and this photo in the OP is proof

[jollyreaper2112]

123. creepy

I always thought that cover made him look like a derranged monkey climbing a yoko tree.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. What avatar is a serial rapist and pedo?

[noamnety]

33. The Rapist from Clockwork Orange

MookieWilson brought that up in the women's rights forum.

[Catherine Vincent]

37. But isn't that from the movie?

He's not that way in real life is he?

[noamnety]

40. They're using the character

not a photo of how he is in real life, as the avatar.

If there was a really great movie about the KKK, would we use a character who lynched a guy as one of our avatars?

[Catherine Vincent]

44. Oh. I see what you mean.

Thanks.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. But the character from ACO is used to illustrate a larger point.

Namely that of free will/free thoughts, particularly vis-a-vis the State.

The film does not condone the rapes he commits, but also condems the government's reaction to him -- controlling his violent and sexual thoughts as a means of preventing him from committing those crimes again.

[noamnety]

93. Maybe they could find a better example

that symbolizes the right to free thought and speech, rather than celebrating a theme based on the idea that people have the right to engage in gendered violence and rape without government interference.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

132. But that's not the theme at all.

Have you seen the film?

Kubrick wasn't defending Alex's violent actions, but those actions and that character were necessary as an extreme example in order to show how the government has no right to control our thoughts, even in the name of possibly preventing the most heinous examples of violence against others.

At a certain point in the movie, Alex is drugged via aversion therapy to become sick to even benign sexual thoughts, such as when he becomes nauseous at the sight of a beautiful naked woman.

What would normally have gone through Alex's head at that point is up for debate, but it's fair to say that even the most remote sexual feelings he would have had for the naked woman forced him to become nauseous, thereby stripping him of his own free thoughts.

As Roger Ebert once said, "It's not what a movie is about, it is how it is about it."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

156. Or maybe you could quit with the ridiculous interpretation.

You don't see me complaining about how your avatar advocates for the spread of avian flu, do you?

[BoneDaddy]

118. If that is all you got from that movie

that is sad. The movie is a classic for many reasons. I guess you see what you want to see.

[noamnety]

120. And people overlook what they want to overlook. (nt)

[BoneDaddy]

124. It isn't a matter of overlooking

it is a matter of how "offensive" you and other reactionaries find everything. It was a movie. A great movie, a classic, that dealt with the very issue of violence. If you watched the movie the antagonist was dealt a heavy blow at the end. The character played by Malcolm MacDowell has transcended the evils of his character.

I tell you, people like you thrive in victimhood and you will always attract that too as long as that is where you consistently view the world. Christ, he was a literary/film character.

Would you feel the same way about an avatar of Kali or the Morrigan, classic mythic characters who were known for their bloodthirtiness? No, cause they are women. The hypocrisy is staggering.

[noamnety]

130. Another man telling me what I think. Thanks, I don't get enough of that.

Would you feel the same way about an avatar of Kali or the Morrigan, classic mythic characters who were known for their bloodthirtiness? No, cause they are women. The hypocrisy is staggering.

What the hell.

You make up a scenario for me, decide for me how I would view it, rather than just asking, then accuse me of being a hypocrite because you don't like the opinion you made up for me?

Clearly I haven't done enough bashing of Clinton's pro-war stance on DU, if you're under the impression that I'm all about blood thirsty folks, so long as they're women.

[BoneDaddy]

134. I was showing you the same thing you do to others.

I am weary of the people who find "offense" in everything and then use that to give themselves more personal power and anyone who questions their "offense" gets lumped into a category or your making or in this case. If I don't find the avatar of Malcolm McDowell offensive, then I support a rapist...See the trap you make for others?

I just turned the same logic back on you and created the same trap you lay for others who don't agree with your view of the world.

[noamnety]

135. If I'd said HERE IS WHAT YOU PERSONALLY THINK

you might have a point.

[BoneDaddy]

142. Ok

you are missing my point. So, what do you think? would you take offense to an avatar of some violent mythical, literary or historical figure? I have seen avatars of castro, mao and other potentially "offensive" figures so where is the outrage? Bill Clinton was a known philanderer? Where is the outrage by women on these boards?

Personally I think it is a much better use of time addressing real things instead of these rather insignificant issues.

[noamnety]

145. Violence against women and sexism isn't insignificant

nor is the ability of liberals to overlook violence against women or sexism insignificant.

[BoneDaddy]

149. Sigh

We are talking about a literary/film avatar... if you want to spend your time persecuting those who have offensive avatars be my guess, but something tells me your efforts are probably wasted and can be used addressing more pertinent issues. Don't you think?

[noamnety]

150. More pertinent than oppression and violence? heh. (nt)

[BoneDaddy]

151. What a gross exaggerator you can be

let me guess, you spend most of your day looking to be offended about things...What a miserable place to live. Good luck. No matter what I say you will always use your trump card of victimhood. No logic, no reason, just pure reaction.

[noamnety]

155. personal attacks aren't necessary. :)

[BoneDaddy]

160. Not attacks just observations

and yes it is frustrating to talk to someone who no matter what logic you may use, falls back on "so violence against women isn't important" which is not even in the same galaxy of what I was talking about. I have come to the conclusion that talking to people who gain such power through victimization is akin to talking to religious fundamentalists who just want to see what they want to see.

[noamnety]

173. one in three women are sexually abused before age 18

Women disproportionately live in poverty, do without health care, are denied jobs and promotions because of their gender. And, overwhelmingly, they are the victims, not the perpetrators, of violent crimes.

one in three women.

I get pissed off when people tell me to shut up about that.

I get pissed off when people tell me to focus on issues other than the root causes of that.

I get pissed off when people tell me it's biological - rather than cultural. In other words, the attitude is "learn to deal with it - it's part of life." That attitude denies any accountability or responsibility to work toward change.

I get pissed off when one of my students is abducted and gang raped on the way home from school. Which happened a few weeks ago.

I get pissed off when I find out one of my friends had a limb dislocated by a rapist. (found that out last week).

I get pissed off when I find out one of my friends was repeatedly molested as a child. (found that out last week as well, though I suspected it.)

I get pissed off when one of my friends is attacked and raped and left bleeding for days (happened a few months ago)

I get pissed off when I find out yet another friend is a rape survivor (yet another one I found out about last week)

I get pissed off at the large picture, at the statistics - and I get pissed off because I am surrounded by women that are living those stories and dealing with PTSD.

I get pissed off when the nonstop flood of messages from the media is that male aggression is erotic, and victimized women are erotic, when I read studies showing that over half the movies rented in America are porn, that 75% of them depict violence against women and 50% explicitly depict rape. I get pissed off that that's what arouses people.

I get pissed off that the best predictor of rape is access to porn glorifying violence against women.

I get pissed off that there is a clear correlation between our culture and rape, that rape is epidemic, and people want women to shut up about that.

I get pissed off that there is a clear correlation between our culture and the economic oppression of women, and people want women to shut up about that.

I am pissed off that if we acknowledge that overwhelmingly the patriarchal system and culture we live in is hurting women, we are accused of "wanting to be victims" - as if the act of speaking out against oppression is a sign that a person wants to perpetuate oppression.

Get a clue. The women who are speaking out about it are doing so not because we WANT women to be victims, but because we DON'T accept the status quo as acceptable. We are pissed off that men are victimizing us, and that people refuse to acknowledge the causes of that.

We don't "gain power" through being raped, through making less money, through being harassed, through nonstop media messages that men are men and women are whores.

GET A CLUE.

[smirkymonkey]

179. Bravo!

there are so few here who get it. Thank you for representing the dissenting voice in this thread.

I was offended by the photo on a visceral level, something about clothed men and naked women has always got my ire up. It feels so disempowering and degrading. It's not just the photograph itself, but it's that almost everything in this society is designed for the male gaze, even if the product/magazine/whatever is for women.

I get pretty sick of people (both men and women) telling me how I should feel about something or what should/shouldn't offend me. For some reason, I don't think we'd see quite the backlash here if it was about a photo that degraded blacks, jews, arabs or gay people. But for some reason, women are supposed to suck it up or else they end up getting attacked. It always shocks me that I find such lack of caring about the issue of women's equality and well being on a supposed liberal website.

[BoneDaddy]

183. Stop projecting your own victimhood onto

everything...it gets old and tiring.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BoneDaddy]

188. That is too bad

YOu say something people disagree with, get called on it, then cry victim or of men abusing you, thereby rendering you absolutely immune from any criticism... Can't you even see that pattern of behavior? It it is power thru victimhood. Your argument can't stand on it's own so you invoke the ultimate "get out of jail free card". Are you that unconscious?

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BoneDaddy]

181. You miss the point entirely

We went from talking about an avatar to you pointing out the entire personal and historical litanies of violence against women. It is sad when you can't discuss particulars when the person invokes their own victim biography and that of others to justify their own irrationality....Time to grow up.

[noamnety]

184. "grow up." Nice.

When you sit across from a woman you've known for several years and listen to her talk about a man trying to dismember her ... and then log into DU and listen to people spewing shit about how you need to focus on more important issues than "women's issues," then you can tell me how life is, from your superior world view.

Maybe you were just talking about an avatar.

I assure you, I was not.

[BoneDaddy]

186. You are one sick puppy

it has never been about discussing small issues for you has it? You just needed an opportunity to get up on the soap box and tell your story. Do us all a favor...get into a support group, get a therapist, do something other than project your toxicity onto others in a political chat room. You take a small, rather insignificant issue of a magazine cover and an avatar and turn it into your own gender jihad about the violence against women.

you are so keyed into the frequency of violence against women, that is ALL you seem to see. You don't see anything outside of it, and when confronted on your outrageousness you invoke the ultimate form of victim power. It is truly sad. You will never ever be a content person if you continue living in these wounds.

[noamnety]

189. another personal attack

those never get old.

No, I will not shut up.
No, this has not been about discussing SMALL ISSUES. It is NOT a small issue.
No, the CONTINUAL demeaning and victimization of women in our culture is NOT insignificant.

The "jihad" (excellent "feminists are terrorists" message, btw) against violence against women should be being fought by everyone here, including you.

Yes, I am keyed into the frequency of violence against women, as I am keyed into issues of racism, as I am keyed into issues of poverty, as I am keyed into the "jihad" by the administration against our veterans, as I am keyed into the mess of war crimes we refer to as the Iraq War.

And I will not shut up about any of them, nor will I apologize for not shutting up. Deal with it.

If you can't deal with people speaking out on political issues, perhaps you are the one who doesn't belong in a political chat room. If you want to discuss issues with a bunch of people that buy into the system and don't challenge power structures when they need to be challenged, I have no clue why you are here.

If you were under the impression that you can insult me or embarrass me into silence, you were mistaken.

[BoneDaddy]

192. No

only ideological radical feminists are a problem. They are as irrational, illogical and ignorant as religious fundamnentalists. Sex postive feminists are balanced, rational and I love to enter into real discussion with them. I am only continuing this discussion because it is comical, like I do with religious nuts who only see one way. You are of the same bent. You hide behind your "cause" which is nothing more than your own self importance under the guise and auspices of really doing something but instead is just a hallmark of your militant and ignorant form of pseudo feminism. But alas, I tire of you as you make no real move to discussion, offer nothing really of import other than the same old, platitudes that if you stopped for a brief second, you would realize that I do support your cause, I just don't tolerate your form of irrationality. Please respond, but this horse has been beaten too much and I need to go to bed. Good luck to you.

[dysfunctional press]

127. in YOUR opinion.

the woman who took the picture and the women who make editorial decisions at vanity fair are obviously of a different opinion.

[Mad_Dem_X]

133. I agree

It's a foul image. Unfortunately, VF does that kind of shit occasionally (clothed men, naked/nearly naked women).

[Fleshdancer]

64. Using that logic, should I agree with Coulter and Malkin? n/t

[buzzard]

49. I loved the green cover to me she symbolized the Greek earth goddess Giai,

There is a Gaia hypothesis basically stating all living things regulate Earth's environment and that in turn promotes life overall. It is a very interesting theory that has evolved over time anyway that is what struck me when I saw the cover. If you are interested here is a link with a good explanation of the theory and its alternative Gaia hypothesis.


http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/Gaia/#ALTERN

"The Hypothesis and its Originators

The originators of the hypothesis were James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis. Lovelock is a British independent scientist and inventor with a background in human physiology. Margulis was, in the 1970's, a microbiologist at Boston University. She is also the originator of the theory that the eukaryotic cell arose by endosymbiotic cell capture - this was a radical idea that has become widely accepted, thereby giving Margulis a high degree of credibility.

The essential idea of the Gaia Hypothesis is analogous to the thermostat in your home, or the thermostat in your brain. You set the thermostat in your home to 65 °F in order to keep a comfortable living environment. When the temperature falls below this, the furnace is switched on. When the temperature in the house reaches the target, the furnace is switched off. Something more complicated, but with similar effect, goes on in our bodies. Everyone of us is a comfy 98.6 °F now, and almost always. If our body temperature deviates very far from a narrow range, we die. The human body has a number of self-regulatory, or homeostatic, mechanisms.

The conditions for life as we know it to exist also require a relatively narrow range of circumstances. How does life modify the physical and chemical conditions of the environment?"




"The Gaia Hypothesis states that life on earth controls the physical and chemical conditions of the environment (the biotic controls the abiotic)

The hypothesis was formulated by James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis

The hypothesis points to stable conditions, such as oxygen levels and climate, as evidence that living organisms maintain a life-sustaining environment

The hypothesis has been defined and argued in numerous ways, and has as many critics as adherents. It is in need of more explicit formulation before it can be examined and tested as a true scientific theory.

Two models emerge:
The model that life influences planetary processes (i.e., it has a substantial effect on abiotic processes) has become known as the weak Gaia hypothesis. This model is widely supported.
The original Gaia hypothesis, that life controls planetary processes (i.e., life created Earth's system), has become known as the strong Gaia hypothesis. It is not widely accepted."

[Marie26]

57. Goddess/whore

That's the concept expressed by all those covers. Those are the choices for women- "human being" not being an option.

[shance]

80. You are bringing up some great points Marie.

Look at the covers.


They really for themselves don't they?

[Mojorabbit]

77. I loved it too

She is nature in the photo. It is almost like they are plants coming from the ground.

[blondeatlast]

139. Actually, the kd lang cover is brilliant, IMHO.

Full of stereotypes but all of them stood on their head!

[Marie26]

19. I don't like it

And yeah, I'm sure it's just some post-modern commentary on patriarchal power in the Sopranos or whatever, but I don't really care. I'm tired of women's bodies being used to sell magazines, movies, cars, basically everything.

[yurbud]

24. I am DEEPLY offended. Are there more inside?

[Bonobo]

25. I think I am tired of all female attributes being considered as "holy"

and all male attributes as being considered "vile".

There is no denying that there are differences between men and women.
This is due to millions and millions of years of evolution and these differences serve actual purposes.

I am tired of the male bashing that equates everything female with "goodness and nurturing" and everything male with "violence".
This sexism is obvious in our schools.
It is obvious in the way we medicate our boys with "calming drugs" to "fix" their attention deficit disorders (how many cases are there where this is just boyish energy?).
It is obvious in the way we throw the phrase "too much testosterone" around.

In response to the post about the photo, big deal. There IS a relationship between sex and power. There just is, like it or not. If you don't believe me, you need to read more or study more.
This photo says something about that relationship. It is a statement. It is art.
Like it, hate it but don't agitate for it to be censored.

[shance]

30. Can you name some references to mens attributes being considered "vile"?

I haven't seen any of what you are describing.

[Bonobo]

38. Hard to search for, sorry.

I'm too busy, but I think it's fairly pervasive.

[Jonathan50]

70. Ritalin is chemically similar to meth...

And if a child is not truly ADHD it actually makes them more active than they are without the drug.

How a child reacts to Ritalin is one of the diagnostic procedures for ADHD.

[Bonobo]

71. That is very interesting. Thank you for the information.

But it still doesn't convince me that ADHD represents something other than our own dissatisfaction with one aspect of natural human behavior. I think its a cultural thing and historically there is a lot of precendent for "undesirable traits" being considered a pathology and then using "medicine" to "fix" them.

[Jonathan50]

104. My younger brother was ADHD

And he nearly drove me and our parents nuts.

When he was still in a crib bed he would hold on to the railing and bounce... for hours if you let him.

My dad said that he would go to work sometimes with his head bobbing up and down from watching my brother.

The crib bed came from Sears and was guaranteed for "life", that was a big mistake on their part, bro had worn it out in about three months. :)

Bro is over fifty now and still somewhat hyper, he hardly ever sits still.

[BoneDaddy]

102. Thanks

I look for the level headed in here about gender. YOu won't find it much though. Alot of the Men=bad, women=good nonsense that is incredibly illogical, irrational and childish. Some people prefer victimhood and whining over the complexity of life.

The extremist radical fundamentalist feminists" are as illogical, irrational and laughable as the religious wing nuts on the right. The left most certainly has it's own brands of fundamentalism.

[Catherine Vincent]

29. That cover is whack.

The only way it would be considered art is if I fling poo at it. :eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

43. greatest show in tv history??

LOL at that!

[ComerPerro]

50. never seen even a minute of an episode.

[dysfunctional press]

129. your loss, not theirs...

nt

[Atman]

52. That's certainly over the top...but it is truly an awesome show on many levels

The writing and acting are sublime, the whole continuing plot device (the entire series centers around the mob boss dealing with his demons in a psychiatrist's office -- in itself a huge taboo in the mob) is engaging and unique, the characters are rich and deeply developed...and since it's not on "regular" tv, it's able to be authentic -- the mobsters don't say "ooh, you dirty rat!" The talk like street thugs.

Saying ANY show is the greatest show in tv history is clearly hyperbole. But it's damned close, imho.

.

[Retrograde]

172. not to mention Tony's ambiguous attitudes towards women

Many,if not most, of his issues stem from his relations with complex women - his mother, wife, sister, daughter, mistresses and psychiatrist. He'll mourn a murdered stripper, then order the execution of his nephew's fiancee.

What makes the show great is that it has no cardboard characters. Every one of them has good points and bad ones: the "evil" gangster is kind to children and animals, the "good" minister knowingly accepts donations from mobsters, and so forth. Every character seems real.

[dysfunctional press]

128. it's definitely on of the top few, at least.

nt

[Bucky]

61. The real social problem with using a naked woman as an accessory is

... trying to pin her to your coat lapel. What a mess!!

[ComerPerro]

66. heh

[shance]

81. Oh Bucky - yer so baaaad.

:P

[Fleshdancer]

62. I agree with the editorial....

I am personally uncomfortable seeing images of women with no face...it's almost always dehumanizing. His grip, his frown, her nudity...he owns her. I think this photograph pretty much nails down the concept I've always had of The Sapranos therefore I think Leibovitz did a damn fine job visualizing what I've always hated about the show.

[alittlelark]

67. I buy Vanity Fair at the grocery store almost every month.

When I walked into Andronicos 2 days ago I could not buy one.... I stood there staring for a few minutes.


I could not bring myself to buy it.......

[shance]

82. Im actually not as big on the articles any more either.

n/t

[alittlelark]

84. I am big on the articles.... it's the cover-shot

that made me all weirded - out about buying it.

[Guaranteed]

86. If it provoked you, it's damned good art.

Appreciate it.

[noamnety]

94. By that logic, blackface is good art.

Sometimes sexism and racism just provokes us because it sucks.

[hedgehog]

113. Bamboozled?

I haven't seen it,so I don't know how well it came out, but Spike Lee should be congratulated for having the guts to take on a dangerous subject.

[noamnety]

136. That was a very hard film to watch

Ought to be mandatory viewing for a lot of folks here, who think:

if one black person does something, it obviously doesn't contribute to racism
if one gay person laughs at a commercial, by default it isn't homophobic
if one woman laughs at a joke about rape, rape jokes aren't offensive

and so on.

[leftofthedial]

88. it's a photograph based on a TV show

fer fucksake.

[HuffleClaw]

92. feigned indignation is hilarious

but it gets attention.

[Cruzan]

96. I like naked chicks and chicks like getting naked for guys

Males being turned on by the female body and females enjoying displaying their bodies for males is about as hardwired in our biology as can be. As long it's consenual for the enjoyment of all why have a problem?

[noamnety]

98. LOL

I don't believe there's any trait for "wears suits/wears g-strings" attached to our chromosones. :D

"Hardwired" is often a cover for "the result of years of indoctrination into an unequal power structure."

If you look at different cultures, it becomes pretty clear that showing women as undressed and men as wearing business attire is nothing to do with hardwiring, and everything to do with socialization.

[Cruzan]

105. There's always the literalist reply

The point I was making -- reading beyond the subject line -- wasn't specifically about nakedness or the specifics of current fashion but rather, I would argue, the biologically natural desire for human males to enjoy looking at physically attractive females and the desire of females to look physically attractive towards males. The magazine cover is simply a manifestation of this as filtered through our culture and society. If you wish to counter this, and I'm open that it could potentially be countered, rather than focus on suits and g-strings, instead give an example of a culture where men are not attracted to the female body and women don't desire to make themselves attractive to men. And of course an example of say a conservative Islamic culture that actively tries to suppress it by manner of dress and public behavior would actually support what I'm saying.

[BoneDaddy]

99. Yeah depicting Tony Soprano as Crime boss

as male dominant power is silly. Come on folks, this is what the show is all about, a patriarchal system that is out of control. Should he rather be pictured in a pink bunny suit holding an infant?

It is an appropriate picture under the circumstances.

[noamnety]

110. an individual tv show, an individual photo

a thousand individual tv shows
a thousand individual photos

The cumulative effect is killing us. Literally.

[BoneDaddy]

116. Only if your position

is one of utter victimization. You do not speak for all women and for the ones who see this as art, they don't appear too offended or victimized. Perhaps when you see the world from that postition, EVERYTHING comes across that way.

[Little Wing]

111. It's TERRIBLE that they made a FINE UPSTANDING CITIZEN look like a

dirty mobster who has his enemies killed and sleeps around with his wife all the time, sometimes with the dancers at the totally clothed club him and his cronies run.

[Forkboy]

115. I like it.

Sue me.

[jollyreaper2112]

117. hmm

As I understand it, Sopranos is like Godfather the TV Show. In other words, the people you are watching here are not to be praised or idealized, they are the worst of the craven power-hungry bastards our species has to offer. So it sounds like anything negative you are gleaning from the picture is exactly what you're supposed to get.

[Beelzebud]

119. I say we cover Lady Justice with a sheet! Or perhaps a Burka!

[blondeatlast]

141. John Ashcroft and many in this thread would agree! That's why I LOVE GD sometimes.

:rofl:

[Marie26]

Who's saying to censor it?

That's a total strawman. The OP asked for reactions & a discussion of how women are portrayed in popular media.

[blondeatlast]

170. Sheesh--it wa a JOKE.

I suppose I must go to the Lounge to make one...

[Marie26]

171. Oh, OK. It's a joke.

It certainly wasn't accurate, and you're not claiming it was. In fact, it was a strawman, claiming people had a position they actually did not in order to make them seem more unreasonable. It's putting words in people's mouth. My point is simply that people aren't calling for censorship or banning of this image, in spite of the many posts claiming that they are. But if you say it was a joke, I'll just have to believe you.

[Marie26]

168. dupe - sorry. nt

[WinkyDink]

121. I think it's astounding how much criminal activity goes on in "Gentlemen's Clubs". ;)

[hedgehog]

131. This may or may not be a serious question, but does anyone here really

believe that the model is not naked because she is wearing a G-string?

[opiate69]

182. good god.. take another look at the photo..it is NOT a G-string.

[noamnety]

137. Statistics for those who still don't get it

Women are vastly underrepresented in the media in positions where they are portrayed as intelligent competent humans rather than sex objects.

Women were just 14% of the guests on the Sunday morning public affairs television programs in the U. S. from November 2004-July 2005. Women were also less likely to make repeat appearances on these programs, and tended to appear in later segments of the programs. The 14% figure represents a three-point increase since 2001. (The White House Project, 2005)

In another study, of the 600-plus persons who appeared on the Sunday morning talk shows between January 2004 and June 2005, only three were black females – Condoleezza Rice, Donna Brazile and Gwen Ifill (National Urban League, 2005)

Women in Congress received fewer total newspaper articles, fewer mentions in front-page, national, foreign, metro, business and sports articles, fewer issue-based articles and fewer mentions and quotes in newspaper articles than their male counterparts (Anat Maytal, Media Report to Women, Summer 2005)

http://www.mediareporttowomen.com/statistics.htm

So the message we get, culturally, is that women aren't academic/intellectual/professional. Typical of the inevitable result: "A study of randomly chosen academic psychologists showed that both men and women were more likely to vote to hire a male applicant over a female applicant with identical records, giving more weight to teaching, research, and service experience of the male applicant." (Steinpres, Anders, and Ritzke, 1999).

There is a real economic cost that women bear, as a result of the cultural message that women are not professionals.

----------

Additionally, and just as importantly, women are consistently victims of violence - overwhelmingly violence committed by men. Again, overwhelmingly, we get the message through the media that being aggressive and violent is WHAT IT MEANS to be a man, and being a victim is WHAT IT MEANS to be a woman. You don't need to be a brain surgeon to see the connection.

[Jonathan50]

138. True enough..

But how many people watch those sort of shows versus how many watch sitcoms?

Sitcoms portray the women as being smart and capable and the men as being dumb and incapable.

Not in 100% of the cases but certainly in the great majority.

[noamnety]

143. I was looking for the stats on that

I had them recently - can't find where I posted them.

In fact, women in sitcoms are disproportionately shown, again, as nonprofessionals, and as the targets of sexual harassment, jokes about rape, targets of comments about bodies in a sexual way, and so forth - and even when they ARE professional women, they are disproportionately shown only within their role as housewife or mom (Claire Huxtable).

[Jonathan50]

169. Most sitcoms don't show anyone at work..

Unless of course the sitcom is *about* work..

You do very occasionally see Cliff Huxtable at work, but that is primarily because his office is in the basement of their home.

There are more women than men in America and it is public demand which drives the media. If women would stop watching "sexist" shows then the producers of those shows would change them posthaste.

Look at the treatment of women in soap operas, which have an overwhelmingly female audience.

[WilliamPitt]

140. This is news?

Seriously, women have been used as ornaments for as long as there have been...well...women. It's a hell of a lot better now than it was, say, 100 years ago. But as long as beer is sold on TV (for one example), women will be the ornaments to seal the deal.

And, P.S., as long as industries that try to convince women that they're not pretty, too fat and just plain unacceptable physically still exist (see: cosmetics, diet and fashion industries, all of which are the main advertisers on those so-called "for-women" TV channels), the phenomenon will continue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. Obviously Vanity Fair readers kill cats for fun.

...or are George W. Bush.

[Firepit 462]

153. Fuckers........ I'll bet they also liked "300"

[Kelly Rupert]

166. Bastards...I bet some of them have penises.

[Cleita]

146. It's not the first time Vanity Fair has had a nekkid lady on the cover.

I remember Demi Moore some years back naked on the cover with her clothes painted on her making her look at a glance like she was clothed. However, for those who haven't watched The Sopranos, there are many nekkid ladies in the show, mostly stripper and hookers that Tony and his gang have recreation with. None are treated with much respect so I can ony say the cover is reflecting what the show is about.

[Marie26]

161. .... or the last. nt

[Missy Vixen]

154. I realize my opinion will not be popular

We watch the show. I liked the cover. I wish I could still wear the gorgeous red stilettos, because I would.

Julie

[mrreowwr_kittty]

159. Yeah, like that's SUCH a minority opinion

:eyes:

Far as I can tell the entirety of social discourse has not been taken over by radical feminists just yet.

[Missy Vixen]

163. It seems to be on this thread

:hi:
Julie

[TahitiNut]

165. Like herpes, it seems to erupt from time to time.

:shrug: ... and interfere with 'community relations.'

[mrreowwr_kittty]

167. Not from what I see but YMMV

Anyway, sorry for my sarcasm but I've been blogging quite a bit about this and other issues and I'm getting more than a little tired of people popping up on known feminist blogs to bemoan how the iron hand of Gloria Steinem has clamped down upon their innocent pleasures. Then they'll act like this aggrieved little minority, valiantly struggling against the brutal and unyielding forces of political correctness to bring us such urgent truths as: "Some women CHOOSE to wear makeup and high heels!"

[Sapere aude]

177. I saw Gloria Steinem in the air port in Miami way back when. She was on a news show I saw and she

was very mad about something that I don't remember. I do remember thinking she looked good when she was mad but I didn't go up to her and say that. I guess I was a real pig back then.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

180. LOL! That reminds me of Will Ferrell

He was talking about the movie "Anchorman" and how he based his cheesy character on a real anchor from the '70s. He said the guy described himself as "a real Male Chauvinist Pig" and the accent Ferrell used was hysterical.

[Missy Vixen]

201. I guess I'm confused

>the iron hand of Gloria Steinem has clamped down upon their innocent pleasures.<

I'm not complaining about Gloria Steinem. She's one of my heroes. She sat three rows in front of me at a performance of "The Vagina Monologues" a couple of years ago, and I am still regretting to this day that I didn't approach her, shake her hand and thank her.

>valiantly struggling against the brutal and unyielding forces of political correctness to bring us such urgent truths as: "Some women CHOOSE to wear makeup and high heels!"<

I'm not trolling on your blog. I simply said that from reading the previous comments on the thread, I imagined mine would not be well-received. I think the cover photograph was meant to provoke comment. I liked the woman's shoes.

Everyone knows that those who aren't excruciatingly PC just don't have a place at the table, do we?

Julie

[dogday]

162. I am surprised they don't have her straddling the Bike

in the worst, most, uncomfortable position ever... Isn't that how they normally have woman pose?

[underpants]

164. I thought she died in a kiln explosion

:shrug:

[Book Lover]

175. I think this photo perfectly captures the view of the mob that "The Sopranos" sells

(which is a bullshit view, in case anyone cares about the actual composition of the Italian Jersey mob...)

There's also way too much type on this cover, but that's for a different thread...

[rinsd]

178. Um Tony Soprano is a brutal thug who treats women like objects

The photo could not be more apropo.

[gravity]

185. There needs to be a political correct portrayal of the mafia

:sarcasm:

[treestar]

191. Hey, it's only sexist, that's OK

:sarcasm:

Watch it be racist and see the fur fly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. It's Called Being In Character. Never Ceases To Amaze Me How Melodramatic Some Can Get.

These types of outrages are just so monumentally silly to me.

[EVDebs]

195. Tony's got some serious Woodrow he's not showing....

Female power over men is reason why this pic is even stirring up a discussion. The obvious phallic reaction to prolonged exposure to nekkid female flesh creates social problems since most men are 16 year olds at heart.

[EVDebs]

196. Rupert Murdoch's 'Page 3' girls....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Three_girl

T&A, great art, porn...you decide. A topic where Liberals and Conservatives can debate compare and contrast endlessly. Kinda like Iraq but soooo much better looking. Social lubrication, as they say, for great conversation.

[hiaasenrocks]

197. Puritanism and political correctness meet here.

Don't like a particular piece of art, a certain book or photograph?

Don't buy it. Don't give it any attention.

As a free speech absolutist, I recognize and respect the right of others who wish to silence expression, but I generally ignore them. IMO, they have no respect for free speech.

On to the next issue...

[upi402]

198. right! a real issue! -life and death, living indoors, eating food

these tempest in a teapot issues don't exactly draw blood or make your ribs show...

great reply. A convergence zone for both brands of hot air. At least political correctness means to protect the supposedly vulnerable though.

[Alcibiades]

203. Plus, she has a sexy body

A big, fat, ugly woman would have made this photo more acceptable.

More to the point, why do hot naked chicks throw themselves at middle-aged, paunchy, balding goombahs like Tony Soprano? As a middle-aged, paunchy, balding non-goombah, I protest.

[Deja Q]

204. Isn't she going to mess up his suit? Or has he done that on his own?

Either of them must have, he looks annoyed: "Damn cost to dry clean this thing..."
:yoiks: