24 season premiere is tonight!

[bananas]

Almost missed it!
2 hours tonight and 2 hours tomorrow night.
8 pm on Fox.
http://www.fox.com/24/

[Postman]

1. Can't watch this propagandistic crap.....

Did you know that the clowns in Gitmo got their cues about torturing people from watching this series?

[Whoa_Nelly]

2. Feel the same way

Have never watched an episode, and never will.

[okiru109]

187. Keith Olbermann: NeoCON Soft-Porn - lol

gotta love Keith :evilgrin:

[elocs]

9. Propagandistic crap is right. "Oh boy! More Torture!"

I bet this is the Bushco favorite show also, but evidently torture for DUers is ok as long as it is entertainment.

[Wetzelbill]

21. So then you agree that television causes people to do bad things?

The degradation of our moral culture. People watch immoral tv, listen to immoral music, so they go out and torture or shoot up a school. They play violent video games and that causes them to snap and kill somebody? I personally believe that if 24 didn't come around we wouldn't have even had Gitmo.

[cbc5g]

32. No they just like to assert their self-righteousness

Makes them feel proud about themselves.

[Fearless]

33. The US has held a base there for decades actually.

[Wetzelbill]

35. I know that but I mean the abuses there

[Fearless]

36. K.

[Wetzelbill]

50. I should also say I was being sarcastic

[Fearless]

53. Meh

Not the sort of thing I usually get bent out of shape about.

Lol.

[Chulanowa]

65. Wow, what a baseless inferral

Who said it makes people go out and torture?

What it does do is offer an entertaining, flashy mode of making torture seem okay and justifiable to the American public, to instill apathy about a gross violation of not just international law, but the inherent dignity of a human being, solely because htey are a "them" instead of an "us"

Couch Potatoes aren't going to go torture their neighbor. But when htey see on the news that five US troops are being charged with torture of a man with a name like Abu Sulayman al-Rasjid, they'll shrug, say "America, fuck yah" and just keep watching.

[Wetzelbill]

100. no it's not baseless

The whole uproar is just stupid. I was making fun of it, it's that stupid. It's about a whole lot more than torture, and there are plenty of more liberal themes in it too. People just tend to focus on something they don't like and flip out about it. I have watched every single season and if anybody thinks 24 is just a show about torture they're misinformed or stupid. Also when people here are specifically saying that AG and Gitmo abuses were specifically inspired by 24, they aren't making your argument, they are saying the show causes people to torture.

[cabluedem]

58. 24 may as well be state run propaganda. I hope Kiefer had a bad time in jail for his 2nd DWI. n/t

[time_has_come]

80. R U serious? n/t

[natrat]

88. so sad cuz donald sutherland seems to have integrity, too bad about his son

[cabluedem]

93. It figures. Hope Kiefer catches a 3rd DWI making him a felon. How ironic. nt

[barbtries]

96. thank you.

i can't watch it because the one time i tried it gave me a headache.

[Duckhunter935]

3. NO thank you

[stray cat]

4. Thanks for the info - I needed to know what type to record it tomorrow

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. So is the first episode the war crimes trial of the MC?

I'll be happy for just his trial for violating the first ten amendments regularly

In case this is needed... this is propaganda pure and simple oh and torture does not work

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. So is the first episode the war crimes trial of the MC?

I'll be happy for just his trial for violating the first ten amendments regularly

In case this is needed... this is propaganda pure and simple oh and torture does not work

[tularetom]

7. Aside from the propaganda implications I can't get into that show

I got up to take a leak during one of the shows in the first season and by the time I got back I was so fucking confused I just gave up. It requires too high of a level of concentration for a dumbass like me. Besides I prefer multitasking like reading the paper while watching TV.

[JackRiddler]

8. Let's go to the town square! The Fuhrer is coming, the Fuhrer is coming!

[klook]

10. No thanks.

That show is an infomercial for torture.

[Lint Head]

11. Screw Fox and everything it represents.

:dem:

[Wetzelbill]

19. The Simpsons? Family Guy?

[Odin2005]

12. I love 24. What's with all the bashing of the show?

:shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

18. people here get wound up over anything

You just have to ignore it, it's a freaking tv show. Yeah it's got plenty of RW whackjob stuff in it but it has some more moderate and liberal elements here and there too. Maybe not as much, but explosions and bombing and Jack Bauer doing crazy RW wetdream torture stuff is entertaining. What do people want to have a show when you have some bureaucrat sitting around attending meetings? It's entertainment, little more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That is why it INSPIRED the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantamo Bay Cuba

if we ever see a war crimes trial, I expect the producers to be tried for it

[cbc5g]

28. ROFL post of the year!

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. See rwanda

[1]

40. wait?! they get "24" in rwanda? n/t.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Rwanda and war crime google it up

[1]

51. if you've got a point to make then just say it...

i'm not going off on a google homework assignment for you to attempt to determine just what the fuck you are talking about.

this started off with your assertion that the boys at gitmo learned torture techniques from watching "24". now you drive by to post "rwanda" repeatedly with no explanation.

you are being obtuse, nab. just say what it is you are trying to say...

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Msdia figures were TRIED by the war crimes tribunal

if you don't know that, not my fault

And that IS THE DAMN POINT

If and when there is a trial, the producers Are LIABLE for trial

If you don't get it, I can't help you

[Wetzelbill]

31. yeah like those nutjobs wouldn't have found any excuse to do that stuff

You sound exactly like a Republican accusing Hollywood or video game violence of causing some kid to go shoot up a school. Do you think that if 24 wasn't on air that no prisoner abuse at AG or Gitmo would have occured?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. See Rwanda, and keep laughing

[Wetzelbill]

45. what does that even mean?

You make no sense at all. And who says I'm laughing at anything. Do you think a tv show is responsible for all of these bad things? Because that's pretty insane.

[LanternWaste]

104. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... n/t

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

152. Thankfully, we don't live in Rwanda

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. See Rwanda, and keep laughing

[Rebubula]

92. Damn Straight!!

If it had not been for the antics of 'Our Gang'(Little Rascals) and the fact that they were never really punished - the camps in Germany and Poland would never have existed. Television is the only reason people are violent.



Seriously....whiskey, tango, foxtrot??

[Odin2005]

98. Oh puh-leeeeze.

Why don't we throw the makers of Grand Theft Auto in jail while we are at it, eh? They must be encouraging gangsterism, donchya know! :sarcasm:

[fishwax]

115. wow, comparing 24 to the journalists in question at the Hate Media Trials is absurd

[NeedleCast]

204. ROFL

I'm sure Hollywood is way ahead of the CIA on torture techniques.

[Bucky]

161. You need to wake up! I watched "I Love Lucy" as a kid; Now I'm married to a Cuban!

TV compells us to do that which we otherwise wouldn't. I can't begin to recount to you the number of sick fantasies I have about Susan Dey after watching that Partridge Family marathon on Nick.

Damn you, TV, damn you to hell!





(You know, it's posts like this that are gonna make me really miss the DUzy Awards)

[Wetzelbill]

175. you are a sad tragic soul

Of course, now that I think of it, watching the Roadrunner as a child kind of made me an asshole. You might be right.

[Fumesucker]

22. It's total fantasy, in the sense that torture works as a way of getting good intel..

Totally disconnected from reality..

And Senior Cadets at West Point have trouble separating 24 from reality..

http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/torture_and_television

Testing with children has shown that watching television programs containing violence has no meaningful effects on them. The same cannot be said for adults. The TV program "24" is having a widespread effect on many adults. Once group of adults "24" is having a noticeable effect on is cadets at the United States Military Academy at West Point. Despite being strongly advised by generals far outranking them that torture is ineffective in general and against military law, the prospective military officers remain persuaded that torture is effective. The program "24" has had the effect of overriding military discipline as outlined and stated by senior officers.

American troops in the field are similarly susceptible to the "24's" allure concerning torture. In a glass case in the office of the show's creator Joel Surnow there is an American flag once flown in Baghdad sent to him by an Army regiment stationed there. "24" is having such a noticeably undermining effect on military discipline and conduct that last in the Fall 2006, U. S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, dean of West Point, traveled to California to impress on Surnow and other producers and writers of the show the troublesome effect the show was having on cadets and throughout the rest of the military. Claiming a scheduling conflict, Surnow did not attend the meeting. But the meeting between Finnegan and creators of the show got nowhere anyway. Finnegan's informing the creators that when he told cadets in his West Point courses on the laws of war that torture was illegal, he often got the response, If torture is wrong, what about '24'?" The show producers responded with the pat rejoinder that "24" was only a TV show, dramatic entertainment, and based on fictional premises.

[1]

29. henry berry is an idiot...

the opening two sentences of that article should be enough to make you want to stop reading. by the time you get past that fourth sentence, if you are still reading? then you as the reader and henry have a lot in common...

[Fumesucker]

46. Read on...

U. S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, dean of West Point, traveled to California to impress on Surnow and other producers and writers of the show the troublesome effect the show was having on cadets and throughout the rest of the military. Claiming a scheduling conflict, Surnow did not attend the meeting. But the meeting between Finnegan and creators of the show got nowhere anyway. Finnegan's informing the creators that when he told cadets in his West Point courses on the laws of war that torture was illegal, he often got the response, If torture is wrong, what about '24'?" The show producers responded with the pat rejoinder that "24" was only a TV show, dramatic entertainment, and based on fictional premises.

I've read that account in numerous places, it is absolutely true.

The Dean of West Point says that his cadets are being effected by the show.

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/22/is_torture_on_hit_fox_tv

This past fall, the Dean of West Point, Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, along with experienced military and FBI interrogators and representatives of Human Rights First, met with the creative team behind the hit Fox Television show “24” and tell them to stop using torture because American soldiers were copying the show’s tactics.

[1]

54. "I've read that account in numerous places, it is absolutely true."

your understanding of the concept of "true" is a bit faulty. your understanding of "absolutely true" is scary.

children with little concept of morality would have no problem with 24, according to your "absolutely true" sources. but adults could be easily swayed.

that is fascinating. truly fascinating.

its also complete bullshit. but don't let that stop you, you have links to obscure articles and blogs. that! is "absolutely true".


unbelievable...

[The Doctor.]

56. If that was a rebuttal, a little intelligibility would have helped.

I haven't seen such a brilliantly insubstantial retort in a LONG time.

[1]

60. ooh! insults! i love it! do _you_ have anything to offer to the discussion, dr? n/t.

[The Doctor.]

69. No less than you do, apparently.

I just read one of the most egregious pieces of nonsense I've ever seen right here;

"your understanding of the concept of "true" is a bit faulty. your understanding of "absolutely true" is scary.

children with little concept of morality would have no problem with 24, according to your "absolutely true" sources. but adults could be easily swayed.

that is fascinating. truly fascinating.

its also complete bullshit. but don't let that stop you, you have links to obscure articles and blogs. that! is "absolutely true".


unbelievable..."

Seriously... that meant nothing relevant to the actual discussion. No problem tho, I'll just let you get your ass handed to you by FS.

[Fumesucker]

61. Not bothered by the facts, eh?

You don't believe the Dean of the US Military Academy?

[1]

64. heh. i'm surprised that _you_ believe the dean of the us military academy...

the military are all liars, right? or did i miss some memo?

personally i believe that the dean of the us military academy had another agenda here. a more pc agenda.

you stomp about with this meme that torture doesn't work. (oh, and please provide all of those obscure blog links to prove your point. better yet, don't...) so i'll just ask the obvious question... if torture doesn't work... and never has...


then why have _they_ been repeatedly doing this awful thing since the beginning of recorded time?


do they not learn from the history of this? do they just want to be the first to proclaim "eureka! i did it!"???

perhaps the dean of the us military academy wanted to discourage a practice amongst the troops for sensitive political reasons. and god bless him for that.

the dean of the us military academy might have had a different idea for this "alleged" meeting. more than its superficial "purpose"...

[Fumesucker]

66. Torture is a terror technique..

It's used to instill fear in the population and isn't particularly effective at extracting *useful* information because people will tell you ANYTHING to get you to stop, particularly including false confessions, that's what torture is really good for.

A false confession is worse than useless as actionable intelligence because you have to spend resources checking it out, it's a time and effort waster.

I'm a vet and I do believe the Dean of the USMA since what he says coincides perfectly with a great deal of reading I have done on the subject and the great majority of the military are indeed honorable people.

[1]

68. "the great majority of the military are indeed honorable people."

well, there you go. see? we can agree. i believe that too.

i am no fan of torture. it is what it is. but this is a thread about a television show called 24.

an action/adventure television show, not about the virtues of torture, that some of us who like television enjoy.

why don't we just leave it at that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. I'll bring to the table AGAIN the War Crime Trials at Rwanda

that SAW a radio personality charged for war crimes

This is what the producer of 24 may face

Oh and 24 makes torture acceptable. You said that this has been done since the beginning of time, aka you accept it as a viable technique

It does not work. It draws false confessions

And until recently the US saw this as a crime, a war crime

We hung people for doing this to US soldiers during WW II. Tokio International Military Tribunal and court martialed people for doing this in the Philippines in 1901

There is more, this contradicts General Order Number One to the Army by General Washington, part of the US Military tradition

Amazing that so-called liberals defend this because they ahem enjoy it

[1]

72. ok. you want to go? so we go...

"It does not work. It draws false confessions"

"And until recently the US saw this as a crime, a war crime"

my god you need to grow up, bud.

you seem to be stuck on this idea that every confession elicited through the threat or act of torture is a false confession. and that america has never done this before. both so not true.

this is the answer to the question i asked you above.


why do they continue to do it if it does not work?


because it works.



not the "spanish inquisition" style you think of, then yeah that does what you think it does. they are so much more sophisticated now. they know what you know. and you will tell them. it is not false. and you think this started when? are you so naive to believe this is a recent development? really?

unbelievable...

[bottomtheweaver]

74. Yes, false confessions are the point of the current torture program.

Read Jane Mayer's The Dark Side if you don't believe me. I have and it shows that everything you're saying is a media-propagated misconception. Here are a couple of links:

Amazon -- The Dark Side, The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals (Paperback):

http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Inside-Terror-American/dp/0307456293/ref=ed_oe_p

Democracy Now! -- The Dark Side, Jane Mayer on the Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals (July 18, 2008 inteview):

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/18/the_dark_side_jane_mayer_on

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. The ones who need to grow up are those who defend this since well

others do it mommy, so its okay.

You see the point of this is FALSE confessions

By the way...I do have a CLUE about what torture looks like, having interviewed victims of it...and treated one victim of it

You enjoy this propaganda, fine...not getting around it

But your...but we've always done this, or others do it, is EXACTLY what a five year old uses as an excuse

By the way...you do know what General Order I'm speaking off right? NOT

[Odin2005]

99. You sound exactly like the idiots who want to ban certain video games.

:puke:

I enjoy first-person-shooters like Doom and strategy games like Civilization and Age of Empires where I am sacking cities and razing them to the ground but that doesn't mean I support committing atrocities in real life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Care to learn how to read?

There were prosecutions during the rwanda war crimes for propaganda and incitement.

I am talking of LEGAL precedent...not whether you will raze NYC tomorrow because you play Civilization (insert version here), or shoot up the neighborhood because you happen to play DOOM

Can you distinguish that fantasy of yours with REAL LIFE where a media figure WAS indicted and subsequently tried for war crimes? By the way the list in the US includes Rush, Savage and the rest of the boys, not just 24 producers

[HEyHEY]

173. Uh, radio personalities were charged with war crimes for calling for murder and genocide

In REAL life... 24 is a tv show.

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. In real life it is propaganda and falls under the IMT

indictments at Nuremberg under Conspiracy to make war, and Crimes Against Peace

That and Rwanda ARE the precedents that the producers of 24, with a whole slew of RW folks might see charges leveled against them

Now going from charges to indictment might prove tricky, but the basis for CHARGES are there

And this piece of crap IS pro-torture propaganda meant to ahem make it acceptable

[HEyHEY]

183. So, should we also arrest Gene Hackman because his character beat up people

In the french Connection?

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. The French Connection was loosely based on real events

with the Jackal, and I would not defend the act of torture either

Point is, 24 was made to make torture acceptable, hence falling under Propaganda

The French Connection is loosely based on events around Carlos and his terrorist network back in the 60s and 70s, see the difference?

Or do I really bring in crayons to the table?

By the by, 24 is not the only piece of war time propaganda made in the US... it is just one of the worst made and most transparent

[HEyHEY]

186. Yes the difference is one is based on real events, one is MADE up

Or do I need to bring crayons? You're making a huge amount of bullshit out of a fucking TV show. Do you actually think they are sitting around saying "Hey, hollywood producers, we need to find a way to get the public to accept torture that is, by the way, being condemned broadly by the public. Let's write it into our show!"

Do you really FUCKING believe that? And do you really believe television shows should be told they can't include torture in an episode because it could influence public opinion? Are you that much of a facist for your causes? Cause if you are I'm willing to bet you'd eat the crayons for lack of knowing how to use them.

By the way, if your logic of the French Connection being based on real events holds true, well 24 is based on real events and therefore escapes your little indictment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. If it was one episode you'd have a point`but Jack Bauer

breaks the Geneva Convention and US Civil Rights laws, REGULARLY

SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

Hells bells Galactica has explored the issue of torture as well, but it was NOT the point of the series... and in the end those involved faced their demons

Jack Bauer tortures people regularly

he gets away with violations of US Civil Rights Laws REGULARLY

So if you think I am making a huge deal, well IN MY VIEW it is equivalent to some of the Propaganda movies done during WW II by ALL sides...

And yes, if you believe US Hollywood producers did not get together with USDOD to plan some of this shit after 9.11 you are woefully ignorant of US History... not the first time, and alas, I am willing to bet, not the last time

Suffice it to say that the cooperation of the entertainment establishment with US DOD during wartime has a long history, as well as the cooperation of the media... suffice it to say that we would not have had the first war of Empire without the Hearst papers, and I will give you brownie points if you even get the reference to what war I am talking about.

[HEyHEY]

191. Dude, hundreds of shows repeatedly have scenes with people breaking the law

Besides that, I'd rather people see it and make a decision rather than be coddled and censored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. This is the five year old response

Hey mom, others do it, why not me?

And I did notice that you did not adress the fact that yes, indeed Hollywood (and other entertainment and information media) have cooperated with the Federal Government in time of war in the production of propaganda

The most bizarre and obvious, until this war, was the Hurst Papers and the Spanish American War.

By the way, the five year old response was also given by a fellow DU'er for why we still must torture prisoners

I am so proud to see that people do drink the kool aid on both sides.

Oh and I forgot, across international borders

[HEyHEY]

195. You're speaking about a time called "Yellow journalism"

Which does not exist today, as much as you'd like it to. Yellow journalism was flat out lies, not spin, flat out lies for the afternoon editions. Hey, 200 years ago the church controlled how we spread information, let's try to blame 24 on the pope!

[nadinbrzezinski]

202. You want to defend 24, by all means do so

Nobody is stoping you

[HEyHEY]

196. You're giving a five-year-old argument as well

And the argument for freedom of choice goes back further than five years. You're advocating for the arrest of some TV producers because, you think (Sans actual EVIDENCE besides your own personal opinion - and don't even try throwing a URL of some asshole's blog at me), they are invovled in some kind of 30s style yellow journalism (Making me wonder if you actually know what happened back then).

You don't care about democracy, you don't care about freedom. You don't care about the people's right to see and make their own decision. You care about you opinion and want your anger validated and that's all. And you care SO much that your anger must be vindicated that you want to control what the people of the world see..

Wait, time you.. you're just crazy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. I said the five year old, as in a five year old child

get it now

And yes I do know what happened then, I also kow what happened in 1898

That's ok, I guess having a clue helps me see the propaganda and NOT defend the propaganda

by the by, NOWHERE did I advocate censorship... if Hollywood wants to produce this crap, by all means... I will be the adult here and call them on it. IT IS CRAP and IT IS PROPAGANDA

Get it now?

[CanuckAmok]

188. Yes, but Green Acres....

... was instrumental in advancing the cause of intelligent pigs (possibly even more so than was Charlotte's Web), so it all balances out in the end.

PS U R Crazee.

[Fumesucker]

75. Because 24 is pro torture propaganda..

Just like advertising, propaganda isn't designed to work on the rational part of our minds, it's designed to work on our emotions, that's what makes it so insidious and dangerous, propaganda bypasses the intellect and focuses on manipulating our emotions.

If there was no emotional connection, people wouldn't watch 24.

[bottomtheweaver]

76. Exactly.

And if there's one thing the US is good at, it's propaganda.

[1]

81. you do watch this show, right? week after week? you watch this show, right?

somehow i don't think so.

i think you are being disingenuous. i think you are being what we call on democratic underground "a liar."


tell me the truth. prove that you are not "a liar."


set me straight...

[bottomtheweaver]

82. It's not exactly a big secret what the show is about. n/t

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bottomtheweaver]

85. You don't have to go to Abu Ghraib or Guantanemo

to know what goes on there, and even if you did, you wouldn't understand happening unless somebody told you. I just told you. Now you know.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

89. Yeah but torture is okay because it has been happening since the beginning of time

Most idiotic post I have read on DU in some time. Try Free Republic with that horseshit.

[Odin2005]

101. That's like saying the strategy games I play are pro-genocide propaganda simply because...

...I routinely raze cities to the ground and kill all the inhabitants when I'm playing Civilization 4 or blowing up planets when I'm playing Masters of Orion 3. :eyes:

[CRF450]

197. Fellow gamer here, I play mostly first person shooter games.

The latest being Crysis. Yeah, the haters here got their panties in a bunch for no reason.

[bottomtheweaver]

73. What's worse is that false confessions are the whole point

of the current torture program which as you may know was reversed engineered from the military SERE program for the purpose of producing phony intelligence.

[Fumesucker]

84. I had heard that, thanks for pointing it out.. n/t

[The Doctor.]

71. Comprehension and context...

Trust me, they help.

[1]

87. blerg! ok, all y'all so intelligent about this subject. here is your litmus test...

now, we all think obama is a pretty bright guy, right?

and he is now getting the full intelligence briefings as he prepares to become the president. he is going to get the straight story about what exactly is going on down there at gitmo. not your wild fanciful tales of false confessions, the real deal.

the real test will be when obama shuts down gitmo, right? if he is so appalled by these tales that it is all of the bullshit down there that you say it is, he should shut this motherfucker down immediately, right? like january 20.


so let's just see how long obama takes to shut it down.

you bright, young, "oh so knowledgeable", "oh so smarter than anyone else" folk are assuming a quick demise.

i'd bet he never shuts down.

bookmark this thread and we will see who is correct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Presidential pen executive order on the way

but now we know that YOU, yes YOU aprove of torture

More than we wanted to know, quite frankly

[valerief]

13. THE TORTURE SHOW? Why???? nt

[Webster Green]

14. Blows chunks!

What a piece of crap show!

Fucking right-wing propaganda to condition us to think that torture is wonderful! :puke:

[OhioChick]

15. Damn, I missed it. n/t

[fishnfla]

16. fuck that shit

peddle elsewhere

[GoneOffShore]

17. It's the worst sort of rubbish - I'd rather watch reruns of QVC

[Wetzelbill]

20. This has been a great first hour

I like the total RW wet dream senate hearing, that shit is hilarious.

They brought back a great character! Great job.

[Skink]

23. American corporate interests raise an army of children in Africa...

to create genocide thus clearing the land of people on top of our oil but we just think it isn't relevant. Corporations don't do such things.

[cbc5g]

24. It's a great show

You bashers can fuck off.

[Wetzelbill]

25. Jack made some librul pantywaist comments

He's going soft.

[liberalpress]

149. SOFT, SOFT?

JACK: Damnit, Chloe! I don't have time for this. Download the entire Library of Congress to my VERIZON phone right now.

CHLOE: I've opened your socket, Jack!

JACK: Maybe there will be time for that later, after I get my jaw unclenched.

Soft,indeed!

[Wetzelbill]

165. you wrote the script!

[liberalpress]

169. I'm not saying I wrote the script..

...I'm just saying I did what I had to do to save lives, Senator!

[Wetzelbill]

170. Who are you working for!!!!

[liberalpress]

176. GO TO HELL !!!!!!

[Skittles]

26. thanks for the warning

:puke:

[Pastiche423]

30. You like to watch torture?

Please watch this:

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/index.asp

[Political Heretic]

42. I do!

If that's how you characterize 24, then fine.

It's fiction. I enjoy all sorts of fiction that includes acts and behaviors which I would not condone in real life. That's what makes it ....fiction.

[Wetzelbill]

49. I like the part about the Dem Black president who

is the strongest most moral character in the whole show. Or when a weak immoral president was going to take our country to war for no reason and kill lots of people in the process to justify the doctrine of preemption, but then was brought to justice. But really people who don't watch the show are right, you shouldn't argue, it's all about torture.

[Pastiche423]

59. You are one sick puppy

[Political Heretic]

77. Screw you and the judgemental horse you road in on.

People can like to watch a fictional television show without you passing dumbass judgment about it.

If you don't like it, I respect that. I can appreciate your perspective about its take on certain themes and thus not wanting to watch it. I find other reasons to enjoy the show. Neither one of us are more or less "sick" because of our taste in fictional entertainment.

[Pastiche423]

142. Backatcha

If you had been totured in your life, you may feel differently about a show that glorifies something so horrific as torture.

I know because I was tortured and left for dead. I unfortnately lived and have to endure the nightmares for the rest of my life.

But you go ahead and get your rocks off watching that sickening "fiction". You'll be a lobbyist in no time!

[Political Heretic]

156. That's why people are different.

You're probably right - if I had personal trauma, then I might not like a show that included things that reminded me of that trauma. Just like some people don't like to watch hospital shows because of traumatic medical experiences.

But that's not my context, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not telling you that you should watch the show and that there's something wrong with you because you don't enjoy it.

Since my context is different than yours, there's always the possibility that I see something else enjoyable in the show or have other reasons for enjoying the fiction. There are a lot of other shows or movies I like that include things I don't agree with:

Battlestar Galactica - employed suicide bombers and terrorists to get what they wanted, one of my favorite characters rigged an election to retain power. Another one of my favorite characters is responsible for genocide. Just because I say "favorite" doesn't mean that I agree with his choices.

Lost - I'm not sure if I can name all the things that characters have done in that show that are wrong and/or sick.

The Dark Knight - I love that movie, even though the "hero" is a criminal, and tortures his arch enemy in an attempt to get information. He also violates every civil liberty in the book to get what he wants. The enemy himself was an awesome character which I thoroughly enjoyed watching - an outstanding performance.


Now of course - I like other more "sophisticated" movies and shows as well. Syrianna, Michael Clayton, the Insider, The Constant Gardener - all of these movies have amazing messages about political/institutional power and corruption that are important and very applicable to the real world. They were also excellent movies. I own every one of them and enjoy them greatly. But I also own Fight Club and Seven. Great movies too.

The bottom line is - entertainment is sooo subjective. The reasons people find enjoyment in things are so varied that you only end up looking extremely silly when you try to pass absolutist judgement on someone for some kind of entertainment that they like.

[liberal1973]

192. Dark Knight

The Dark Knight was a good film only because of Heath Ledger's great performance. Without that it's just another pos Batman film.

24 is a pos show. The fact that the right wing looney watch it and take it as real says alot about them. I think it's kind of like the right wing looney who think that America is a christian nation.

24 is a still pos show, and America never has been a christian nation.:nopity:

[smalll]

147. "People can like to watch ... without you passing 'dumbass' judgement about it" Um, no.

No, not if the fictional television show is a glorification of torture, which you've admitted you enjoy. Watch stuff like that? Some of us are going to pass some judgement. You have EVERY right to watch and enjoy the show, and WE have every right to call you an immature, emotionally stunted sick fuck who really should be ashamed of yourself (assuming you're not still a 12-year-old boy, which may be a rather key assumption to make, but yet and still...)

[Political Heretic]

155. Yeah okay.

:eyes:

If you don't think that its pretty ignorant a foolish to make those kinds of sweeping statements about a person you know nothing about, when you have not context of understanding and no background - then I really can't help you.

It seems to be lot less reactionary and a lot more broadly reflective to give some room for the possibility that, someone can watch a fictional television show, and enjoy some aspect of it for particular reasons that you don't share, without it being enough information about the person to make generalizing sweeping statements.

But apparently for you, everyone who watches 24, or any other show that you have decreed in by your sovereign judgment on all things right and wrong to be inappropriate, is unacceptable in some way.

[Pastiche423]

159. Thank you for your post

My thoughts about someone that enjoys watching others tortured are the same as yours.

[Fumesucker]

62. The point is that it is *stupid* fiction...

I like fiction quite a bit myself, but it has to have some intelligence about it.

Torture does not work the way they depict on the show, not even close.

[Political Heretic]

78. That's you. It doesn't have to be anyone else.

Just because you subjectively judge it to be stupid - or even if some objective entity decreed it to officially be stupid - doesn't mean I shouldn't enjoy it.

Subjective entertainment is just that - subjective. Some people will find something to like in one thing. Other people will find something to hate in that same thing. It's not that I "like" the violence. But I do like many things about the show, including the fact that I just like stories that I happen to find interesting - regardless of the snobby opinion of their "intelligence" by others.

[liberalpress]

151. Neither do computers,

or bottomless canvas bags. I think that's the point, really. It's escapist nonesense and I find it quite alot of fun.

P>S> I am a normal liberal Democrat, who loves kids, animals, nd human rights for all. But "24" is like a six-shooter in and old-time Western. Thirty-Seven shots later, the good guy wins.

[NeedleCast]

205. Star Trek vs Star Wars

Your post reminds me of Sci-Fi fans who argue about which one was better.

"Yeah, Star Wars rules! Star Trek sucks! People who watch Star Trek suck!"

[mmonk]

34. No thanks. The torture issue is too big for me to have it glorified

in fiction as a real means of getting intelligence.

[dysfunctional press]

43. i've never watched it, but- it sure seems like keifer sutherland has had the worst week EVER!

maybe it's because in all that time, he's never taken a crap. :shrug:

constipation can be a real drag.

[rhett o rick]

44. Don't watch Fox. nm

[Morning Dew]

47. Jeanine Garofalo hates that show so much

that she's in it.

24 is usually a rollercoaster ride of a show. Not sure if I'll watch this season - trying not to watch so much tv these days.

[grace0418]

55. Sarah Vowell from This American Life (and as liberal as it gets) wrote an article about

her love of "24". Everybody has different taste but some people really need to get over themselves. I think the show is a blast (last season, which sucked, not withstanding).

[Morning Dew]

57. I agree - I've enjoyed watching it. nm

[cascadiance]

140. Yeah, I found it interesting that they have Janeane in it...

I wonder if that was a PR move for the show writers/producers to seem more in "the middle", or if it was a PR move by her to try and fight her way in to help make more statements on torture within the story contexts that reflect her viewpoint. Either way, it will be interesting to see how they evolve their character. I don't think she'd sign up for it if it were to make someone who's at least rationally critical of torture to look like one of the bad folk!

At least we won't have rumors of Limpbaugh trying to date her like he did Chloe a couple of years ago... I'm guessing that once Chloe comes in to the show, that she and Janeane's character will have a lot of interaction with each other. Will be interesting to see what happens there too.

[ecstatic]

48. LOL @ the hostile reactions! I've never watched an episode

I'm very bad about tuning into shows on time.

[leftofthedial]

63. lots of great dick-swinging justification for torture.

[ananda]

67. OK, I watched it.

It was great! I love this show!

And yes, I can separate fictional fantasy
from reality and think for myself.

[time_has_come]

79. Saw it. Silly nonsense, imo. nt

[mwb970]

90. Yuck. I would never watch that show.

I tried an early episode for about ten minutes, seeing numerous murders followed by a young woman pleading for her life before being shot in the head. That was it for me. This isn't why I turn on the TV. It seemed like a show for right-wingers and other violence lovers. Is it better now?

[Shardik]

91. Wasn't bad brain candy this time.

Kind of a cross between one of the Die Hard movies and a soap opera.

[zeemike]

94. I watched it for the first time last night

For about 10 minuets until I realized that it was all about justifying torture...the end justifying the means...
What a pile of crap...but I guess they want to justify bush and his war crimes to the public.

[annabanana]

95. . . and there you have it..

That is it's reason for being. If it didn't do that "ends justifies the means" thing it would have no purpose.

[Wetzelbill]

102. then you must have missed later on

When the lead character talked about how he deserved to go to trial and that we need to keep everything out in the open for the American public because hiding how these things are done is a bad thing.

[zeemike]

110. So then the message is that the public just needs to accept it.

That the end does justify the means, and as long as we accept it no harem is done.
Sorry but sighting one wrong to distract from the other wrong dose not cut it with me.

[Wetzelbill]

111. nope wrong again

See watching something for 10 minutes doesn't make you an authority on it, it makes your commentary shallow. 24 is about much more than torture, it's complex, because life is complex. So you're about as much a valid authority on the nature of the whole show as Sarah Palin is the foremost expert on energy in the United States. And that goes for everybody else commenting on something they have never bothered to watch. If a Republican did it, we'd laugh at them, but people here get ever so serious and authoritative when they talk about something they know nothing about. It would be funny, except we're supposed to be smarter and better than that. Maybe the worst aspect about 24 isn't the elements of torture, it's the narrow-mindedness of people who disagree with something they've never seen. That says more about our society than people who watch a show for fun.

[azmouse]

112. Exactly.

24 is just as 'realistic' as any doctor or lawyer show currently on and I don't hear anyone speaking out against those shows.
Watching 24 is no different than reading a book or playing a video game. It's meant for entertainment purposes.
It's just trendy to complain about 24.

[Wetzelbill]

128. If somebody watched 10 minutes of The West Wing

And started pissing and moaning a bunch of goofy RW talking points about how they had to stop watching it because it was Librul propaganda and they were trying to put forth the homosexual agenda and surrender to terrorists while promoting abortion and raising taxes, we'd consider it ridiculous. But all of a sudden it's ok to do that with 24? lol

Yeah it's trendy to complain about it, and torture is shown often. But Jack Bauer is a complex character too, and he often faces bad repercussions to the sometimes awful things he does. And the show's moral heart started with a Dem Black president who was strong, smart and fair. His opposite was a weak president who tried to create a terrorist plot on purpose so he could use it as an excuse to go to war and push through harsher terror legislation etc. They even have a character that is exactly like Dick Cheney, looks like him, talks like him and advocates violence and breaking the law just like him and that guy was shown in a terrible light. So the show is not as easy to pin down as people try to make it.

[azmouse]

129. And a woman President this year.

I adore Cherry Jones. She comes across as smart, talented and thoughtful.

And don't forget, that weak President was held accountable for his crimes. hmmmm.... I like that idea!

[Wetzelbill]

134. She's great!

Yeah he was, put on house arrest but held accountable, for sure.

The cast is always very good, excellent ensembles.

[endarkenment]

138. West Wing was well written and well acted. nt.

[Wetzelbill]

141. oh good one

So is 24. They have some of the best ensemble casts and complex storylines ever in the history of television. It's one of the most innovative shows ever. Bias is not a good thing.

[zeemike]

179. Well if I wanted to be thought of as an expert on 24

I would not have tole you that I only watched for ten minuets.

I am not an expert on anything TV...
But I know that when someone portrays sooting as being necessary such as torture and suggest to me that the end justifies the means I have heard enough to know that it is an evil thing...the end never justifies the means... never.
And to me that is what is wrong with our culture, we seek to justify evil by thinking that we are really doing good.
Our warriors now are proud of killing and called heroes for doing it.
That is so much different from the times of WW2 when they were not proud of killing and destroying and were not called heroes for doing so, but rather called heroes when they saved the lives of there own fellow solderers.
They served then because it was their duty to do so, not because they wanted to be heres..

[Balbus]

97. Best TV series ever.

[Odin2005]

103. I bet the people bashing 24 are the same people who were bashing violent video games 10 years ago.

:eyes:

[azmouse]

109. I'll bet they're the same ones *playing* those games.

Or reading novels with lots of violence.

[LanternWaste]

105. Although I've never watched it...

Although I've never watched it, most of the "righteous outrage" over the show on this thread appears to closely mirror the same justification used by those who would have particular violent computer games or gangster-rap music censored...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. Go 24!!!!! I Was So Excited. My 24's Back! Can't Wait For Tonight!

:toast:

[FormerDittoHead]

107. Who's that on the show? Jeanne Garofalo!?? Right wing fascist neocon alert! n/t

[MilesColtrane]

108. Alright! New material for the boys down in GitMo!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/24/torture-jack-bauer-24-redemption

In early 2007 I interviewed Diane Beaver, the lawyer who had been the staff judge advocate down at Guantánamo when, in the autumn of 2002, decisions were being taken on the authorisation of 18 new techniques of interrogation for a detainee who was thought to be the 20th hijacker. The second series of 24 went to air on October 29 2002, at the very time these decisions were being taken. Beaver described to me how the series was shown at Guantánamo.

-snip-

Bauer had many friends at Guantánamo Bay, Beaver told me the next time we met, and "gave people lots of ideas". "We saw it on cable," she explained. "People had already seen the first series, it was hugely popular." Others who were at Guantánamo at the time confirmed her account. Some described to me how the series contributed directly to an environment encouraging those in the interrogation facility to see themselves as being on the front line, and to go further than they otherwise might have. 24 also made it more difficult for those who objected to the abuse to stop it.

[Greyskye]

123. If 24 is the reason for abuses done in America's name...

...then our military is even more f'd up then we already think it is.

Blaming Gitmo on a TV show? :eyes: Talk about passing the responsibility buck. "Oh, we tried to keep our people from torturing those detainees, but that TV show was so compelling!"

Blaming a TV show for warcrimes. :wtf:

:puke:

[zeemike]

180. You got it backward

We are blaming the war crimes for the TV show that justifies it.

[Greyskye]

181. You reiterated my statement.

I got nothing backwards. I simply think that the military blaming a TV show on its' members behavior is pathetic and disingenuous.

What about the military/administration taking responsibility for its' own actions, instead of saying "it's not our fault, our poor impressionable soldiers watched a TV show - that's why we tortured people!"

:puke:

I sure hope that the Pentagon doesn't let soldiers watch "The L Word", "Dexter", or "Weeds". Can you imagine the problems that might cause? :eyes:

[Connie_Corleone]

113. Hate to burst the bubble of the haters of 24 on this thread but...

Lots of liberals, including myself, watch the show. We can seperate fiction from reality.

I guess people who take fictional TV shows seriously shouldn't watch them.

[hfojvt]

114. lots of liberals smoke too

that doesn't really prove that smoking doesn't cause cancer and other health problems, does it? So your premise is one of two

1) you can ingest mental poison, enjoy it, and not be adversely affected by it, or
2) 24 actually has a positive message/purpose

[Connie_Corleone]

116. It's a fictional TV show. If you can't suspend reality for an hour, don't watch it.

[hfojvt]

127. is reality really suspended?

After all, it is not like Superman or The Neverending Story. It's more like Fargo, pretending to be true. About things that could happen, showing the way the world actually works. Is it, for example, okay for me to watch a show that includes the theme that "women enjoy rape"? After all, it is just fiction. It didn't really happen.

[Hippo_Tron]

163. To anybody with a brain it is reality suspended

Government agents don't do anything remotely close to what Jack Bauer or James Bond do. Just because there are no super powers doesn't mean that there's no suspension of reality.

[sufrommich]

120. " mental poison" ,there's a frighteningly Orwellian phase.

It's a TV show,nothing on TV is real,it's fiction and it's not "dangerous".

[hfojvt]

124. ideas can be dangerous and so can lies. GIGO works for brains too.

Garbage in, garbage out.
Would you be bothered by a show that promoted NAZI philosophies? or one that featured child pornography (assuming no actual children are harmed in the making of the show, just use digital imaging)? Don't we agree here that Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, etc. do great harm even when they call themselves entertainers?

Or is it your thesis that anything goes on TV, since it's not real, it's only a story.

"When we think, we do not just think: we think with ideas. Our mind is not a blank, a tabula rasa. When we begin to think we can do so only because our mind is already filled with all sorts of ideas with which to think." Small is Beautiful

I hypothesize that a mind would be much better served spending an hour reading the book "Small is Beautiful" than it would be watching 24. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

[sufrommich]

125. So who gets to decide which ideas are dangerous?nt

[hfojvt]

130. it's pretty clear

that you think the idea that ideas can be dangerous is a dangerous idea.


However, that is not a question I need to answer. Who gets to decide that smoking causes cancer? Who gets to decide that driving drunk causes accidents?

You are arguing by slippery slope. Either ideas can be dangerous or they cannot be. The argument that "believing that ideas are dangerous will lead inevitably to censorship" is not a valid argument against the belief. Believing that smoking causes cancer may lead to draconian laws against smoking, but the facts are what the facts are.

[LanternWaste]

132. Does this line of thinking also apply to...

"ideas can be dangerous and so can lies..."

Does this line of thinking also apply to gangster rap and violent video games-- or merely television? What is (are) the precise and relevant moral difference(s)?

[liberalpress]

153. Nothing on TV is real?

You mean those actresses with the big...

They're all FAKE?!

HOLLYWOOD MUST BE IMPEACHED! RIGHT FUCKING NOW!

[endarkenment]

122. You might be able to "seperate fiction from reality" but

liberal, conservative, or freep: if you think that is a good show you are delusional.

[Connie_Corleone]

126. Opinions are like assholes.

[endarkenment]

135. No really, the show objectively sucks.

I'd be happy to discuss why it objectively fails but this is all well covered elsewhere, especially on Dave Barry's excellent 24 blog: http://blogs.herald.com/dave_barrys_blog/24/index.html

For example:


24

Here is the situation inside the perimeter as far as we can determine from the schematics:

The Counter Terrorism Unit (CTU) has been dismantled, probably because the authorities finally realized that the it was directly responsible for 93 percent of the terrorism that has occurred in the United States over the past six years. Jack Bauer has been ordered to Washington, D.C., to receive a huge federal bailout.

No, seriously, Jack is in Washington to face charges that he has done bad things. We are going to go out on a limb here and speculate that there will be Unexpected Developments, including the return of Tony, who as you recall used to be dead, which as far as we know Edgar still is. We further speculate that these developments will lead to some kind of Crisis that will involve President Woman President, Chloe, Bill, Janeane Garofolo, and Alice as the housekeeper.



Spoiler alert not required. There is nothing to spoil.

[Connie_Corleone]

136. I'm not watching the show for consistency and realism.

No discussion necessary. I'm still going to watch it and enjoy it.

[endarkenment]

137. comedy?

it fails as that as well. Even the unintentional camp value fails. As 'action adventure' it is quite horrible, which you concede, as it is inconsistent and unrealistic, which are actually more or less minimal requirements for the genre. It might succeed if they gave up on the action adventure genre and rebranded it as 'superhero action adventure', even of the James Bond level, where consistency and realism are not required. That would however require the director and producer to be marginally aware of just what a steaming pile of idiocy they have concocted, which as they are rightwingnut freepers, is unlikely. Enjoy. Objectively, the show sucks.

[Political Heretic]

160. Your definition of what constitutes "sucks" is subjective.

So, it may "absolutely" meet your definition, however there is no basis for agreement what what you think makes a show "suck" as entertainment is authoritative for anyone else. In fact, as it is purely a matter of taste, it clearly doesn't.

All this means is that based on the evaluative critera of "realism," 24 isn't realistic. And if one defines hyper-realism in entertainment as the basis for not-sucking, then 24 fails and therefore "sucks."

Of course, many will reject that definition of "sucks" altogether, and have perfect justification for doing so.

[endarkenment]

177. A show that resurrects dead people makes 'jumped the shark' inadequate. nt

[hfojvt]

131. you left something out

"seperate (sic) fiction from reality"

A little note to sepArate you're spelling errers from there's.

[endarkenment]

143. it was why that text was quoted. nt.

[DS1]

117. I don't watch the show but I'm going to claim it's pro-torture gubmit propaganda

because I'm a DU shitbag who thrives on attention and being more left than anyone else in this thread.

[ebdarcy]

118. I just got done watching last night's premiere.

It was awesome. Gotta say, I love the fact that they brought _______ back. Can't wait till tonight's episode.

As an aside, I love DU threads about 24. They're always entertaining.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. I watched about two minutes of that crap its first season.

It appeared to be a fight scene involving some sort of ninja attack a guy in a motorcycle outfit using some sort of night-vision googles.

It struck me as "Walker: Texas Ranger" for people who think they're cool.

[mudesi]

139. LOL

Good one.

I'll admit I watch this show, but I don't pretend to think it's a serious drama. It's more comedy than anything else, actually.

[endarkenment]

121. Aside from the simple fact that it is AWFUL

the only amusing/entertaining thing that remains about 24 is Dave Barry's 24 blog: http://blogs.herald.com/dave_barrys_blog/24/index.html

Don't bother with wasting your life on the actual show, you can catchup with the total sum of the idiocy from the blog.

[OwnedByFerrets]

133. I haven't watched it since they began mirroring our own policies.....

TORTURE FIRST, RENDER LATER.

Some people defend it as nothing more than fiction. But its NOT fiction. What it depicts is WHAT WE ARE. And I will not help perpetuate this view by supporting this program.
Besides, its supposed to be entertainment. Is watching people get tortured entertaining to you?

[smalll]

146. You ask the key question there. "Is watching people get tortured entertaining to you?"

And I guess for a surprising number of people here, the answer is "yes." It also seems that for some people here, "fiction" is basically defined as play-acting in which people busy themselves with horrible, inhumane activities - or at least the only "fiction" worth watching is like that.

I'm amazed at the number of DUers who seem to love this awful "24" show.

And let me just say this: I do not want to ban stuff. I DO NOT WANT TO BAN STUFF. I SUPPORT THE FIRST AMENDMENT WHOLE-HEARTEDLY. HOWEVER --

If someone's idea of "fun" is to play video games (Grand Theft Auto, etc.) where one gets to play murderer (and the more gory the murder, the more "fun" it is) -

If someone's idea of "good TV" is a glorification of inhumane, violent actions like "24" -

In short, if someone's idea of primo enjoyment is violence (real or simulated) --

I will vigorously exercise my free-speech rights to tell that someone: you're an immature, emotionally-stunted sick fuck who should be embarrassed of yourself (assuming you're not still a 12-year old boy.)

[Political Heretic]

158. See #157

By the way, no one is disputing your free speech rights. Of course technically, as this is a private board - you don't have them. DU is free to set rules governing your speech, etc. But still... I get the point.

But we can question the worth of your opinion.

[OwnedByFerrets]

172. OMG. What a great post!!! Thank you for the follow-up

[Celeborn Skywalker]

193. I think

24, Grand Theft Auto, Halo, and violent movies are fucking awesome. Fuck you very much.

[CRF450]

199. Generalize much?

I'm with jaredh.

[liberalpress]

148. Here's why I love this show...

1.) Torture works

2.) Blueprints, Schematics,Instructiion manuals and complete dossiers can be sent to Jacks VERIZON phone.

3.) Of all women in Jack's personal universe, at least 80% are smokin' hot.

4.) Jack has any weapon or gadget he could ever need in that canvas bag of his and can produce it instantly.

5.) In six seasons there were more more terroists per square foot in Los Angeles than there were breast implants.

In other words, SHEER, FUN, PULP FICTION. None of it real, but all of it entertaining!
Kinda like CSI:MIAMI, only with spies and dirty nukes and stuff.

[jonnyblitz]

150. Janeane Garafolo is on it this season! I am watching it on hulu.

looks like everybody is going to have to hate her now. :D

[liberalpress]

154. Yeah, that torture loving, Bush aplogist!

[Political Heretic]

157. How come no one complains about Lost, BattleStar Galactica, Madmen, or movies like The Dark Knight

All of these shows contain themes that - by the reasoning of some of the knee-jerk reactionaries - would be totally unacceptable.

Battlestar Galactica - employed suicide bombers and terrorists to get what they wanted, one of my favorite characters rigged an election to retain power. Another one of my favorite characters is responsible for genocide. Just because I say "favorite" doesn't mean that I agree with his choices.

Lost - I'm not sure if I can name all the things that characters have done in that show that are wrong and/or sick.

The Dark Knight - I love that movie, even though the "hero" is a criminal, and tortures his arch enemy in an attempt to get information. He also violates every civil liberty in the book to get what he wants. The enemy himself was an awesome character which I thoroughly enjoyed watching - an outstanding performance.


Now of course - I like other more "sophisticated" movies and shows as well. Syrianna, Michael Clayton, the Insider, The Constant Gardener - all of these movies have amazing messages about political/institutional power and corruption that are important and very applicable to the real world. They were also excellent movies. I own every one of them and enjoy them greatly. But I also own Fight Club and Seven. Great movies too.

The bottom line is - entertainment is sooo subjective. The reasons people find enjoyment in things are so varied that you only end up looking extremely silly when you try to pass absolutist judgement on someone for some kind of entertainment that they like.

[Bucky]

162. No, those are just fantasy shows. It's realistic shows like "24" or...

"Dancing with the Stars" that lead to dangerous copycat behavior. Just yesterday I spent hours thinking about ballroom dancing with Marie Osmond. Hours, dammit! How can you say TV doesn't cause that?

[smalll]

166. Because those shows aren't propagandizing in favor of Bush's torture regime. BUT SINCE YOU ASKED...

I can complain about some of that too! Lost? Lost may have some violence issues, but I think those problems are dwarfed by the making-it-up-as-you-go-along red-herring holocaust that it is. I tend to think that people who like Lost are just patsies for lazy network writers who really don't give a fuck.

And I'm not surprised that you "own Fight Club" -- one of the foundations of the "edgy" pseudo-macho boutique barbarianism that settled down upon us in the 90s and shows no signs yet of lifting.

And you say, "entertainment is sooo subjective." Maybe in certain circumstances, but as per this post of yours, I find it far from subjective and in fact stunningly easy to explain what counts as entertainment for you: vicarious sadism.

[Political Heretic]

167. So, if you could just give me a list of your pre-approved fiction, I guess that would help.

One of my biggest wishes is that people on the internet could meet each other. You have no idea how clueless about me you actually are.

It's amazing to me than there would be anyone out there who things they can gather enough information to make an informed judgment about someone based on a conversation on the internet or a television show they watch.

I sincerely hope we meet one day.

[CRF450]

200. Funny thing is...

The same people who talks shit to eachother over the internet wont be saying the same thing if they meet face to face! Unless one or the other is dumb or ballsy enough to do so.

[Hippo_Tron]

164. I could never get into the show because I can't handle weekly cliffhangers

I like shows that resolve at least some of the issues by the end of each episode. Recurring plots are good and the occasional to be continued cliffhanger is nice. But having a long action movie broken up into 24 segments just isn't my cup of tea.

[DS1]

168. This acting job by the President is vomit-inducing

Holy crap she's terrible

[Sheets of Easter]

171. The only thing 24 ever tortured was my suspension of disbelief.

[burythehatchet]

174. When did this show become a comedy?

[endarkenment]

178. season 2

[CanuckAmok]

189. Anyone on this forum ever hear of "satire"?

Geez, people, get a grip.

Is the Wizard of Oz advancing a pro-flying monkey, pro-witch agenda?

[CRF450]

198. Wow, you people sure have your panties in a wad for no reason.

In most any action, drama show or whatever, theirs always been some form of torture shown. Have you forgotten how long the television has been around? People have tortured eachother for thousands of years. You're making it sound you just discovered it recently. Get over it, theirs been worse shit done that cant even be shown on a network television series.

I frequently play violent video games, does that automatically make me a violent person? You be the judge if you want to generalize about people you dont know or never met.

[NeedleCast]

203. Looks like we'll have to add 24 to the list of things DUers aren't allowed to like

24 is propaganda for the Bush War Machine.

House is propagands for Big Pharma.

:eyes: