corollary: would private schools be better than public if required to admit all comers?

[ulysses]

And by "all comers" I mean every LD eighth grader who reads at a second grade level, every behavior disorder badass who throws pointed shit at his deskmates when he's pissed off (which is every day), every poor kid who smells bad because his family can't buy deodorant until the school counselor delivers it to him at Christmas.

Or is the perception that private schools are better than public schools based pretty much entirely on the fact that they can accept or boot whomever they please?

[Hanse]

1. Good god no.

They wouldn't last a week.

[sandnsea]

2. Open one and find out

Contact some of the best private schools in the country and propose a corrolary (sp) school that runs the exact same curriculum with the same disciplinary policies, etc. The only difference is that you want it to be with a completely open group of kids and the money an average school has to operate on. It's an "experiment" worth doing.

[ulysses]

4. I know what would happen.

I want to know what y'all think.

[sandnsea]

13. It would be nice to finally prove it n/t

[ulysses]

15. not sure about the ethics of doing it, to begin with.

Kids aren't lab rats.

[sandnsea]

19. What about charters?

As if some of them aren't using kids as lab rats, in the worst possible way.

Also, there are schools connected to universities where various education techniques are studied.

But beside those points, I wasn't really talking about an untested education system. I was talking about adapting the very best this country has, or thinks it has, only with public school social policies. I really think it's something that should be done. The top ten private schools should be challenged to open a school that has their curriculum and structure, but otherwise operates as public schools do. See what we find out.

[ulysses]

22. no fan of charters here.

University lab schools are different - you understand the deal when you enroll your child.

Not sure under whose guidance such an alternative would run. The private school under whose aegis the thing would be has no incentive at all to allow it to run its course if the results look as if they would stand counter to its reputation (and to be fair, perhaps trust in the other side might be misplaced).

[sandnsea]

37. That's why it's a challenge

It's also why I don't oppose charters outright. This is what they should be doing, with all kinds of teaching models. Now, they're just operating willy nilly, it seems to me, no rules, no educational theories, no evaluating outcomes. It's ridiculous.

As to the experimental school, parents would know the deal when they enrolled, it's just that the school would have to take everybody, not ask for applications. Results of the school would be for a board that was interested in the objectives to monitor and determine.

One of the things that infuriates me most is that we don't really monitor curriculums and teaching methods. When I asked one school district about it, they said it was illegal. Something about local control. I don't know how companies keep getting contracts to supply educational materials if none of it is ever evaluated to see if it works. Those national report cards are kind of useless if you don't have any other model to compare it to.

[donco6]

6. You can't have the same disciplinary processes.

Private schools can expell for any reason. Public schools cannot. If the behavior is part of a manifest condition, you cannot change the kid's placement. Private schools don't have to worry about any of that shit.

And curriculum . . . private schools don't have to worry about differentiated instruction - all their kids are GUARANTEED to be at the same grade level. It's part of the weeding out process in the application. They can run simple basals in reading and do just fine.

There's a thousand more reasons, but probably not of interest to anyone.

[sandnsea]

12. A school funded by the private

that operates with the "take all comers" of the public, wouldn't be under the rules of public school. I know the rules of public school, I raised 3 kids and a step-son.

If you want to prove that the only benefit private school has is money and selection, then contact one and propose a program to test the theory.

That's what charter programs are for.

I'm not arguing the point, I'm suggesting a means to get through to the public.

[donco6]

3. No chance.

Strict enrollment application processes, lack of transportation (limiting attendance only to those who have the means to get themselves to school), no special ed services, no ELL services, . . . these are what make private school performance what it is.

[bluestateguy]

5. probably not

That is, holding everything else equal.

Private institutions are by their very nature selective and exclusionary, meaning they get to pick the best (or anyone else they may choose to educate at their discretion). Public institutions (with only a few exceptions) must accept all students who live in their zone.

[keroro gunsou]

11. sounds like my high school

where the only minorities i saw were the captains of their respective sport teams.

racially enlightened this school was not. and it was damn near ground zero of a large and growing hispanic population.

and the sad thing is, this was back in the 1980's.... i went back to visit one of my old teachers who was retiring, and too my utter lack of surprise... same racial make up, only with the kids driving bmw's.

[marimour]

7. plenty of private schools accept whoever can pay the tuition

My private school was better than most, 1. b/c of the student to teacher ratio (less than 10-1), 2. we paid teachers well above most teachers salaries in GA so all of our teachers at least had a masters, many had Phds 3. We had a larger variety of classes than any publics school and 4. discipline (much more strict than public schools).

btw there are actually plenty of public schools that don't accept everyone. NYC schools come to mind, as well as many Philadelphia schools. Plenty of public schools can be really competitive with only the brightest and most talented admitted.

[ulysses]

9. what was the school?

I'm in GA, and taught or subbed in several privates in the Atlanta area. None paid anywhere near even the state public salary to teachers.

[marimour]

14. ......

It was one of the big ones (with a W). That was the explanation one of my teachers in high school gave me. Based on her education she got paid more than public schools (she was a new teacher), plus all 3 of her kids got a free 20k/year/child education.

[ulysses]

16. Westminster?

[marimour]

21. lol no.

I could have gone to Westminster for free through the A Better Chance program but my mom turned them down because they had no diversity (2 black kids in the graduating class the year I graduated). Plus, my mom heard that they had a history of anti-antisemitism and they just seemed too stuck up overall. I went to Woodward (the most diverse of the big private schools).

Edit: typos

[ulysses]

24. good school.

Doubt they really pay more than most publics in the state, though.

[marimour]

38. they may not now.

its been a while since I was in HS but my teacher at the time said they did. The biggest draw is the free education. A lot of teachers take a position there so their kids can get the education. It was a great school and every single student gets into a 4 year college. I wish most Atlantans were able to get that same kind of education.

[JDPriestly]

41. Most private schools pay less than public schools, especially if you

consider pensions and health insurance benefits.

[PM7nj]

25. My school did... even some who couldn't pay.

I went to a Catholic high school that accepted everyone. If you registered in time the school would take you. When I was there students from all around South Jersey. Although it was probably 90% white, students came from families with all different economic situations. There where some who took public transportation into town and others who drove BMWs and Land Rovers that their parents bought them for their 17th birthday. I know that 98% of my graduating class went on to college. There where a few who want to Ivy League schools, many went to a state college, and some others went to community college. The public school on the other side of town, mostly made up of lower-middle class white kids, only had 55% of their graduates go on to college.

The only difference between the students at my school and the students at the public school is that my school may have been a bit more middle class whereas the public school was more working class. But, the public school had MUCH better facilities, our school was actually two ancient buildings a block away from each other and we had no athletic fields of our own, a wider range of classes (specifically AP classes) and extra curricular activities, a lower faculty to student ratio, and smaller class sizes. We did have a killer sports program, though. :)

[Journeyman]

8. My children attended private school and I never felt it was a better experience than public…

It was a fine education, but the daughter who went through from pre-school to high school received no better education than the daughter who asked -- and was permitted -- to leave for public school at the end of third grade. In some ways, the public schooling my younger daughter received had distinct advantages over the private education of her sister.

Guess it's all in what you're looking for and what fits best for your child. I was fortunate to have the resources to permit a choice. And each child received what was best for them.

[NYC_SKP]

10. A private school with exclusively those LD and other challenging kids would do better.

If they could escape the top-down BS rules and paperwork that public schools have...

AND if they had good curriculum and motivated teachers.

I know, I did it for eight years, in Juvenile Hall with long term incarcerants, most of them with one LD or another.

Integrated curriculum, self contained classroom, great test scores, great results.

Of course most of them went back to their old shitty environments and were locked up again.

A few of them are dead.

[ulysses]

17. I taught for four years at a private school in Atlanta for LD kids.

Far and away the best private with which I had any dealings. Great school.

The cost also rules out anyone not in the upper middle class.

[marimour]

18. i think that is the biggest benefit of private schools

There are some that have good LD programs, especially a few Quaker schools that I learned about in PA. The children were less likely to be left behind because teachers had less students and stress and were better able to devote time to each individual child. We could have this in public schools if we committed ourselves to giving special ed programs more resources.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Also, where time is sufficient for relationships to develop,

Students AND teachers can thrive.

The traditional overcrowded classroom and students transitioning all day long from class to class does not great relationships make.

[ulysses]

29. pity to not offer that level of relationship to all students, though.

[NYC_SKP]

36. Which is why, in our program of county operated schools and programs,

including shelters and juvenile hall, there were a few parents who requested moving their kids into OUR community schools.

To escape bullying, to get more teacher time for their kids, or for other reasons.

Public schools could do it. In fact, our program, except for the shelters and the hall, are public schools, though county operated and outside the jurisdiction of the school districts.

A good and often successful pilot program, (depending upon the particular teachers at a site) now 18 years old.

Other public schools could do it.

[Occam Bandage]

20. That is indeed the primary reason to choose a private school.

The entirety of the school's resources can be dedicated to teaching students who are willing and able to learn, and the other students will provide an environment conducive to learning.

[ulysses]

23. and so to the basic question.

Do we really want to educate all students? Equally?

[Occam Bandage]

30. No, I don't think we do.

I think as a society (and you could insert health care, food, housing, or any other fundamental right) we want to provide a high minimum level of education that ensures that no person is left without the necessities of the modern world, but at the same time we want to ensure that people willing and able to pay for an elite level of service should be allowed to, without allowing those people to opt out of the societal costs for ensuring the general public is covered.

Whether that is what we should want is a different question entirely. Still, if you ask Americans whether they want to be stripped of the rights to choose their own doctors, schools, meals, or houses, you are not going to get a positive reaction.

[ulysses]

31. I'm not suggesting that everyone be required to accept the "high minimum" level

of anything. I wonder why we can't provide the "elite" level for all.

(Disclaimer: when I say "elite", I don't mean that all kids should be forced into college prep.)

[Occam Bandage]

32. I think I might have slightly misspoke. I meant the terms as relatives, not absolutes.

I firmly believe that our education system cannot possibly be "good enough." By "high minimum" I meant "the highest level we can provide for all people using the resources we have, and the level below which we would consider to be an unacceptable breach of duty towards society." On the other hand, no matter how high that level is, there will always be a higher level that is attainable by using more resources and admitting fewer people. That is what I meant by "elite."

I do agree with you that the state of education in this country is shameful. My biggest problem, actually, is in districting. I find it grossly unfair that students in economically disadvantaged areas are provided a further disadvantage in an inferior education, while students in economically advantaged areas have gleaming new stadiums for their football teams. The American dream is not about equality of success, but it certainly is about equality of opportunity. I think all funding for schools should come from the state, with each school receiving a certain base amount, plus a certain amount per student, plus an additional certain amount per student with special needs. Not only will the average performance increase, but with the demands from suburbanite parents to increase the education funding for little Mackenzie and Ethan, the total educational outlay should increase dramatically.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. This is a complete aside, but you think that a Canadian citizen is assigned

their doctor? aka they don't choose their own primary care physician?

By the by, I CHOOSE my Primary, but she has to refer me to a specialist, over which I have no choice

Yes, this is the US... of America

And by the way, an INSURANCE so-called expert makes medical decisions that they usually are not qualified to make

The right wing talking points did slip in and I could not let them go unchallenged

And I believe we should shoot for elite coverage of all, and elite education, WE DID at one time, and we were far better for it

[Occam Bandage]

35. Nope, not at all.

The Canadian health care system is very much like the current American educational system. Each person pays into the pot, a minimum level of service is provided, and if you want to purchase your own higher level coverage, you are free to do so. It's surprising that Americans would be so reluctant to apply the same model they use for literally every other public service to health care.

As for the meanings of "elite?" I admit I wasn't very clear at all, and provided a further explanation in the post above, #32.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. My brother has practiced medicine in BOTH systems

and here is the CRITICAL difference

We have 1\3 of our population falling through the cracks.

They have best case five percent falling through the cracks

We spend DOUBLE per person

Their outcomes are better

Throw me into THAT briar patch.

As to higher level of care, it is for things that the system does not cover... such as... drum roll, ELECTIVE surgery, such as tummy tucks. or if you want to pay for a private or semi private room in hospital during a planned procedure, which by the way... you get the option anyway when you check in.

So yes once again throw me into that briar patch. As is, OUR system will fall apart SOON... the way that it works right now.

[Occam Bandage]

40. I agree with everything in your post. Absolutely everything. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. We need to work for that

[Occam Bandage]

47. And again, I agree. Health care is the one issue where

I do not believe any degree of compromise is acceptable, despite the incoming administration's apparent beliefs otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I am hoping the apparent believes are theater

taking to streets comes to mind

[JDPriestly]

43. You describe the systems I saw in Austria, Germany, France and the UK.

Great services, broad choice of doctors but not elective surgery such as tummy tucks and extra charge for a private room.

After the birth of my first child in Austria I was on a ward (for about two weeks) with, if I recall correctly, 12 beds. In France for my second child, I was in a two-bed room (for about two weeks). Complications both times and, of course, no additional charge for me. The care was just exquisite.

Oh, and by the way, funny detail: in the Austrian hospital, as a little treat, they put a bit of rum in the drinks of the new mothers who weren't nursing every once in a while. In France, the special treat was getting a massage on your tummy. It was supposed to help you lose weight or get your muscles back. So, it wasn't just minimal care. By the way, the prenatal care was fabulous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. The massage on the tummy helps the uterus to contract

so you are right, it is not superfluous, helps to stop bleeding or even prevent it

Good to see that you had good experiences both times

[sandnsea]

42. I don't get to choose my primary

They assign one at my clinic which is the only clinic in the area due to the Oregon Health Plan. If you don't like the one they assign, you have to put in an application to get transfered and say why. And if you do that too many times, you're blackballed. Throughout the entire region. I Am Not Kidding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I believe you

That's the way it was when hubby was still active duty...

[Trillo]

26. Just a guess. No.

The expulsion policy of private schools teaches a highly dysfunctional example of dealing with your problems. Just kick them all out of your life! (Because it is possible, with enough luck, to live hermetically mostly as a hermit.)

[PM7nj]

27. How is what many public schools do any better?

Many public high schools will just throw all the problem children together into an alternative school.

[Trillo]

34. Do they? A transfer for such a thing as, oh, say, following the "stated rules"?

I find that very difficult to believe, but it could agree with my liars hypothesis.

Personally, I believe the greatest failing of all compulsory schools, both private and public, is failing to reward and instead concentrating on punishment for behavior modification. There's no way a red star on a test is a proportional reward to the rather extreme potential punishments that could happen when the slightest negative thing is noted, or some undisclosed cultural border is crossed. But I suppose that's a different topic.