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This is what medals are made for. This is what heros do.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:15 AM
Original message
This is what medals are made for. This is what heros do.
(Disclaimer - I am not extolling the virtues of war. I am, however, attempting to show what a hero is - a term that is thrown about so freely as to be almost completely devalued these days.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=259x22500

In another thread, I was chastised for putting a diminutive spin on Poppy Bush's service in WWII. He got an award from bailing out of his plane after it took a flack hit. No mention that his crew died. No mention that his plane was DESIGNED TO LAND ON WATER in an emergency and that a concerned - heroic - pilot might well have chosen to stay with it and try to glide it down and maybe save the crew. No. The Bushes are bred to be all about .... the Bushes.

Anyway, the gunny who got this award did something heroic. He had something thrown at him. he could have ducked. No harm in that; its natural ..... or he could have done what he had to do to complete the mission and, maybe more importantly, pull a wounded comrade to safety. He chose to act in a way that jeopardized his own safety.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. They handed Bronze Stars to sub captains for pushing a button to launch a tomahawk at Iraq...
without any chance whatsoever of getting any retaliation.
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chucktaylor Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. That negates this man's heroism how?
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 12:24 AM by chucktaylor
Or just another non-sequitur from a neener neener.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. It certainly doesn't. nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. The sub captain did not push the button, the WEPS did
the medal was for getting the sub there and back and completing the mission

Granted, more than just the captain should be recognized for it

And medals are not just given for heroic actions in the field but also for performance above and beyond in wartime

Granted, more than one sub crewman grumbled as the officers mostly got the medals and many in the crew got nothing more than a NAM, when they were lucky
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I didn't want to get technical.
But I like your response!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Lets just say I have direct knowledge of some of this
married to Navy....

now fortunately retired
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I could tell.
Now, you can stay 'put'.

Dad was a sub captain and I'm a volunteer on a museum sub.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. Now i can stay put, correct
funny thing though, we have "kids" parrots, he came home from one deployment, and I took the sun conure to the dock

Bird screeches when she sees dad come out of the hatch... people open, bird is loud

Well a one star comes over to see us, and the bird starts fluttering. She wanted to get picked up. Admiral asks, we say sure, she can byte.

She walks over and relieves herself on his paper

Ah paper trained, impressive, welcome home sailor

Was funny.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
46. So you can dictate what's "honorable" and the meaning of "valor"
Because you share a bed with somebody who is in the military? Come on. Your arguments all just fell completely apart. They are in shambles.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. I WAS IN SOMEBODY ELSE's MILITARY and went into a shootout
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 12:56 AM by nadinbrzezinski
to take a casualty out of harms way as a MEDIC

I guess, as a kid told me yesterday, that my job.

So exactly what have you done?

Mosquitoes, the lead kind by the way, fly fast, and have a deep byte
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Who's military?
n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. South of the border
war on drugs,

Bullets are bullets are bullets when they fly

Gee I even got to disobey an illegal order

And was one of the reasons why we stopped being a reserve component

So next time you decide to call people on bullshit, you may be called back on that same bullshit

by the way I also expect the USUAL answer... but that is not a real army

Used to it by now

And yes the Red Cross until the Civil War stared was part of the reserves, the EMS component, going back to WW II

I know, but that is not a real military. I get tired of this bullshit from people who ARE CLUELESS

And even if ALL I DID was get married to a USN sailor, I still have more of a clue of how this works that 95% of the population

Now lets go sing kumbaya... since military are just murderer thugs and so are the cops, the GREAT BLIND SPOT for some in the American left

By the way, huge freaking clue. what I saw down there, is coming to US cities, unless we stop prohibition
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. That's a little vague geographically speaking.
Chile? Brazil?

I'll assume Mexico, since that is what you seem to be going for. So you were in the Mexican Army fighting the War on Drugs?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. Yes Mexico
South of the border, usually colloquially means Mexico for MOST americans

Congratulations though, that you can think beyond Mexico
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #86
95. South of the Border for me means fireworks
You ask anybody on the EASTERN seaboard north of South Carolina and that's what they will tell you.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #95
100. I live on the border, so that changes the perspective
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #100
103. And you were in the Mexican Army?
n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. Yes, as part of the reserve component
very much reserve

And it is not as simple as people thing. The RED CROSS EMTS were part of the reserve component going back to 1943, liable to mobilization

That ended one fine day (a first of January to be exact) when the shooting started in Chiapas

But hey, not a real army, and yes I have been told this many a times

Hell, even TAUGHT international law, laws of land warfare and close order drill to cadets... all in a days work...
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
117. and all this time, i thought that 'weps' was the actual name of viggo's character in "Crimson Tide".
:shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. WEPS, Weapons Officer
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. A real hero puts his gun down and goes home.
When you are gunning at children who are taking arms against you, you have no moral high ground. When you are a tool for an imperialistic country destroying people's lives, you have no moral high ground.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Oh, good grief.
What a fine moral place you dwell in. Mars?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. And we all shall sing kumbaya
in the real world where I live I realize that you have no clue how that works

And troops cannot just sing kumbaya and go home

That my dear is your job and mine, to bring them home
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Another great post. nt
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I didn't say anything about peace.
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 12:33 AM by Oregone
I just think they have their rifles pointed at the wrong people.

Look, its a fucking job (no matter how terrible). Give them a paycheck and promotion if suitable. Save "honor" and "hero" gibberish for the fascists.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. The troops know better, honor and glory
are reserved for those that don't come home.

Of course you don't get this either

But what you are asking is called mutiny, in time of war. Look it up
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. War! Glorious war!
Dying on the battlefield is glorious? What kind of twisted world do you live in?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. As I said, you don't get it...
Let me try to explain this, when the civies scream about honor and glory, everybody knows better... there is none

So the little that people thing there is, mostly civiies left behind, well you lie... you know when you say, didn't suffer. When you give all the honors in a military funeral... and that is the honor and glory, a military funeral to help people grieve.

That is what it is about.

You don't get it.... and I hope you never do
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Give me a fucking break...
And spare me your code of honor bullshit.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Perhaps if you read some Owen or Remarque you might get it
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Mussolini covered it well enough.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Do you even know who Owen or Remarque were?
Somehow I doubt it
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. And do you know the fundamental tenants of fascism?
Oh, we won the battle of World War II, but seemingly, it seems like we are losing the philosophical war as of late.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. You want to discuss Gramsci while we are at it?
And if you are going to talk about militarism, you are wrong, since you are applying it wrong

Go ahead, find a vet of Omaha beach, the last good war... sort off, and ask them about honor and glory

They will give a similar answer, it is limited to those who staid over there

No war veteran speaks in those terms, except for the dead

And if you want to confuse that with Benito Mussolini, your problem

I suggest you spend the next few hours reading All Quiet on the Western Front, or Owen's poems of WW I

Then perhaps you will get it, what most combat veterans mean when they speak of honor or glory, because it has precious little to do with Mussolini or Fasicae.

Here is an example of what I mean, not that you will get it either

"Dulce et Decorum Est "

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! -- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under I green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, --
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.




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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. Cliched bullshit.
Honor is limited to no one. It doesn't fucking exist. Its just a job. A shitty one at that. Everyone gets paid so cut the bullshit.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. You are calling one of the greatest british poets cliched bullshit
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

I forgot to translate the latin for you,,, forgot, not your fault, substandard education

The old lie, So sweet to die
for ones country


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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Few are fuller of shit than poets, and fewer yet than those who write about war
But pardon me good master. Im just so uneducated that I can take it. I bow in your glorious presence.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. Did you even know what that meant?
No you didn't

Not your fault, Latin is mostly NOT taught in the US any longer
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. And since Im so uneducated and simple
I could never understand your omniscience. I am human garbage. But whatever ranking you assign to me, and my ignorance, be assured the "Hero" of the OP ranks quite below. Turn your worship to who you must though. It bother me not.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. You don't want to even try to understand
that is the truth

Why you ran at the first opportunity as well

Let me offer you another piece of cliche

Spring time patriot...
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. No, I fear understanding
Am remained bowed to your omniscience. I wish I was as impressed with you as your are.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
79. Let me try to explain, because you're talking past each other.
I think what Nadin is saying, more or less, is that honor and glory are artificial constructs. They are created by soldiers and military families as a way of coping with the horror and tragedy inherent in war. War-minded civilians often attempt to co-opt these for their own end, but that is just as wrong as when peace-minded civilians discount them as fraudulent or valueless.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. That is exactly what I am saying, but he won't get it
because it is cliche

:sarcasm:

Soldiers speak of it as the full pieces of crap they are.

Now chickenhawks believe in the crap
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #82
90. I'm just not smart enough. Shitty education. Not enough latin. They never taught us to decipher...
arrogance.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. Look in the mirror
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. I understand where you are coming from...
"that is just as wrong as when peace-minded civilians discount them as fraudulent or valueless."

BUT...

These artificial constructs are valueless in a general, wider context, and this thread is most assuredly pointed at a wide crowd to recognize "heroism" (a wide crowd of mostly civilians who should have no need or ability to recognize it in the first place). If we do not actively work to deconstruct the notions of glory and heroism before they become entrenched into an entire population, it may have devastating effects. Perhaps I am just doing my job.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #88
98. I understand and appreciate the point.
It's (obviously) a difficult conversation, because both people can have roughly the same viewpoint and still argue. All that need happen is that the first person believes the second is placing inappropriate broad societal emphasis on the concepts, and the second person believes the first person's complaint is inappropriately discounting the positive value within military circles that the concepts of honor and glory have. The conversation will play out much as the above one did (though I am not making any claims as to the degree to which your viewpoints coincide), finally breaking down into sniping out of frustration that the other does not understand, despite there being very little real difference to fuel an argument.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. I think the problem is...
I lack the education to remove the stick from my ass and Nadin has too much honor to do so. In the end, we both are just grouchy assholes screaming because there is a stick in our ass.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #88
99. My lord, trying to reach for Derrida, or perhaps Faucault?
Or just the term sounded nice to you?

The terms, which you miss, were deconstructed by the military a long time ago

going back to the Prayer for the dead, by Thucydides, one of the greatest pieces of Greek Propaganda, some of his contemporaries didn't think it that great

by the way, that oration for the dead could have been told by Bush, except that he is not a gifted orator, and unlike bush Thucydides actually saw combat

Here you go

The History of the Peloponnesian War By Thucydides

Book II, Pericles' Funeral Oration

In the same winter the Athenians gave a funeral at the public cost to those who had first fallen in this war. It was a custom of their ancestors, and the manner of it is as follows. Three days before the ceremony, the bones of the dead are laid out in a tent which has been erected; and their friends bring to their relatives such offerings as they please. In the funeral procession cypress coffins are borne in cars, one for each tribe; the bones of the deceased being placed in the coffin of their tribe. Among these is carried one empty bier decked for the missing, that is, for those whose bodies could not be recovered. Any citizen or stranger who pleases, joins in the procession: and the female relatives are there to wail at the burial. The dead are laid in the public sepulchre in the Beautiful suburb of the city, in which those who fall in war are always buried; with the exception of those slain at Marathon, who for their singular and extraordinary valour were interred on the spot where they fell. After the bodies have been laid in the earth, a man chosen by the state, of approved wisdom and eminent reputation, pronounces over them an appropriate panegyric; after which all retire. Such is the manner of the burying; and throughout the whole of the war, whenever the occasion arose, the established custom was observed. Meanwhile these were the first that had fallen, and Pericles, son of Xanthippus, was chosen to pronounce their eulogium. When the proper time arrived, he advanced from the sepulchre to an elevated platform in order to be heard by as many of the crowd as possible, and spoke as follows:

"Most of my predecessors in this place have commended him who made this speech part of the law, telling us that it is well that it should be delivered at the burial of those who fall in battle. For myself, I should have thought that the worth which had displayed itself in deeds would be sufficiently rewarded by honours also shown by deeds; such as you now see in this funeral prepared at the people's cost. And I could have wished that the reputations of many brave men were not to be imperilled in the mouth of a single individual, to stand or fall according as he spoke well or ill. For it is hard to speak properly upon a subject where it is even difficult to convince your hearers that you are speaking the truth. On the one hand, the friend who is familiar with every fact of the story may think that some point has not been set forth with that fullness which he wishes and knows it to deserve; on the other, he who is a stranger to the matter may be led by envy to suspect exaggeration if he hears anything above his own nature. For men can endure to hear others praised only so long as they can severally persuade themselves of their own ability to equal the actions recounted: when this point is passed, envy comes in and with it incredulity. However, since our ancestors have stamped this custom with their approval, it becomes my duty to obey the law and to try to satisfy your several wishes and opinions as best I may.

"I shall begin with our ancestors: it is both just and proper that they should have the honour of the first mention on an occasion like the present. They dwelt in the country without break in the succession from generation to generation, and handed it down free to the present time by their valour. And if our more remote ancestors deserve praise, much more do our own fathers, who added to their inheritance the empire which we now possess, and spared no pains to be able to leave their acquisitions to us of the present generation. Lastly, there are few parts of our dominions that have not been augmented by those of us here, who are still more or less in the vigour of life; while the mother country has been furnished by us with everything that can enable her to depend on her own resources whether for war or for peace. That part of our history which tells of the military achievements which gave us our several possessions, or of the ready valour with which either we or our fathers stemmed the tide of Hellenic or foreign aggression, is a theme too familiar to my hearers for me to dilate on, and I shall therefore pass it by. But what was the road by which we reached our position, what the form of government under which our greatness grew, what the national habits out of which it sprang; these are questions which I may try to solve before I proceed to my panegyric upon these men; since I think this to be a subject upon which on the present occasion a speaker may properly dwell, and to which the whole assemblage, whether citizens or foreigners, may listen with advantage.

"Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighbouring states; we are rather a pattern to others than imitators ourselves. Its administration favours the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy. If we look to the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences; if no social standing, advancement in public life falls to reputation for capacity, class considerations not being allowed to interfere with merit; nor again does poverty bar the way, if a man is able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition. The freedom which we enjoy in our government extends also to our ordinary life. There, far from exercising a jealous surveillance over each other, we do not feel called upon to be angry with our neighbour for doing what he likes, or even to indulge in those injurious looks which cannot fail to be offensive, although they inflict no positive penalty. But all this ease in our private relations does not make us lawless as citizens. Against this fear is our chief safeguard, teaching us to obey the magistrates and the laws, particularly such as regard the protection of the injured, whether they are actually on the statute book, or belong to that code which, although unwritten, yet cannot be broken without acknowledged disgrace.

"Further, we provide plenty of means for the mind to refresh itself from business. We celebrate games and sacrifices all the year round, and the elegance of our private establishments forms a daily source of pleasure and helps to banish the spleen; while the magnitude of our city draws the produce of the world into our harbour, so that to the Athenian the fruits of other countries are as familiar a luxury as those of his own.

"If we turn to our military policy, there also we differ from our antagonists. We throw open our city to the world, and never by alien acts exclude foreigners from any opportunity of learning or observing, although the eyes of an enemy may occasionally profit by our liberality; trusting less in system and policy than to the native spirit of our citizens; while in education, where our rivals from their very cradles by a painful discipline seek after manliness, at Athens we live exactly as we please, and yet are just as ready to encounter every legitimate danger. In proof of this it may be noticed that the Lacedaemonians do not invade our country alone, but bring with them all their confederates; while we Athenians advance unsupported into the territory of a neighbour, and fighting upon a foreign soil usually vanquish with ease men who are defending their homes. Our united force was never yet encountered by any enemy, because we have at once to attend to our marine and to dispatch our citizens by land upon a hundred different services; so that, wherever they engage with some such fraction of our strength, a success against a detachment is magnified into a victory over the nation, and a defeat into a reverse suffered at the hands of our entire people. And yet if with habits not of labour but of ease, and courage not of art but of nature, we are still willing to encounter danger, we have the double advantage of escaping the experience of hardships in anticipation and of facing them in the hour of need as fearlessly as those who are never free from them.

"Nor are these the only points in which our city is worthy of admiration. We cultivate refinement without extravagance and knowledge without effeminacy; wealth we employ more for use than for show, and place the real disgrace of poverty not in owning to the fact but in declining the struggle against it. Our public men have, besides politics, their private affairs to attend to, and our ordinary citizens, though occupied with the pursuits of industry, are still fair judges of public matters; for, unlike any other nation, regarding him who takes no part in these duties not as unambitious but as useless, we Athenians are able to judge at all events if we cannot originate, and, instead of looking on discussion as a stumbling-block in the way of action, we think it an indispensable preliminary to any wise action at all. Again, in our enterprises we present the singular spectacle of daring and deliberation, each carried to its highest point, and both united in the same persons; although usually decision is the fruit of ignorance, hesitation of reflection. But the palm of courage will surely be adjudged most justly to those, who best know the difference between hardship and pleasure and yet are never tempted to shrink from danger. In generosity we are equally singular, acquiring our friends by conferring, not by receiving, favours. Yet, of course, the doer of the favour is the firmer friend of the two, in order by continued kindness to keep the recipient in his debt; while the debtor feels less keenly from the very consciousness that the return he makes will be a payment, not a free gift. And it is only the Athenians, who, fearless of consequences, confer their benefits not from calculations of expediency, but in the confidence of liberality.

"In short, I say that as a city we are the school of Hellas, while I doubt if the world can produce a man who, where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happy a versatility, as the Athenian. And that this is no mere boast thrown out for the occasion, but plain matter of fact, the power of the state acquired by these habits proves. For Athens alone of her contemporaries is found when tested to be greater than her reputation, and alone gives no occasion to her assailants to blush at the antagonist by whom they have been worsted, or to her subjects to question her title by merit to rule. Rather, the admiration of the present and succeeding ages will be ours, since we have not left our power without witness, but have shown it by mighty proofs; and far from needing a Homer for our panegyrist, or other of his craft whose verses might charm for the moment only for the impression which they gave to melt at the touch of fact, we have forced every sea and land to be the highway of our daring, and everywhere, whether for evil or for good, have left imperishable monuments behind us. Such is the Athens for which these men, in the assertion of their resolve not to lose her, nobly fought and died; and well may every one of their survivors be ready to suffer in her cause.

"Indeed if I have dwelt at some length upon the character of our country, it has been to show that our stake in the struggle is not the same as theirs who have no such blessings to lose, and also that the panegyric of the men over whom I am now speaking might be by definite proofs established. That panegyric is now in a great measure complete; for the Athens that I have celebrated is only what the heroism of these and their like have made her, men whose fame, unlike that of most Hellenes, will be found to be only commensurate with their deserts. And if a test of worth be wanted, it is to be found in their closing scene, and this not only in cases in which it set the final seal upon their merit, but also in those in which it gave the first intimation of their having any. For there is justice in the claim that steadfastness in his country's battles should be as a cloak to cover a man's other imperfections; since the good action has blotted out the bad, and his merit as a citizen more than outweighed his demerits as an individual. But none of these allowed either wealth with its prospect of future enjoyment to unnerve his spirit, or poverty with its hope of a day of freedom and riches to tempt him to shrink from danger. No, holding that vengeance upon their enemies was more to be desired than any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk, to make sure of their vengeance, and to let their wishes wait; and while committing to hope the uncertainty of final success, in the business before them they thought fit to act boldly and trust in themselves. Thus choosing to die resisting, rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonour, but met danger face to face, and after one brief moment, while at the summit of their fortune, escaped, not from their fear, but from their glory.

"So died these men as became Athenians. You, their survivors, must determine to have as unfaltering a resolution in the field, though you may pray that it may have a happier issue. And not contented with ideas derived only from words of the advantages which are bound up with the defence of your country, though these would furnish a valuable text to a speaker even before an audience so alive to them as the present, you must yourselves realize the power of Athens, and feed your eyes upon her from day to day, till love of her fills your hearts; and then, when all her greatness shall break upon you, you must reflect that it was by courage, sense of duty, and a keen feeling of honour in action that men were enabled to win all this, and that no personal failure in an enterprise could make them consent to deprive their country of their valour, but they laid it at her feet as the most glorious contribution that they could offer. For this offering of their lives made in common by them all they each of them individually received that renown which never grows old, and for a sepulchre, not so much that in which their bones have been deposited, but that noblest of shrines wherein their glory is laid up to be eternally remembered upon every occasion on which deed or story shall call for its commemoration. For heroes have the whole earth for their tomb; and in lands far from their own, where the column with its epitaph declares it, there is enshrined in every breast a record unwritten with no tablet to preserve it, except that of the heart. These take as your model and, judging happiness to be the fruit of freedom and freedom of valour, never decline the dangers of war. For it is not the miserable that would most justly be unsparing of their lives; these have nothing to hope for: it is rather they to whom continued life may bring reverses as yet unknown, and to whom a fall, if it came, would be most tremendous in its consequences. And surely, to a man of spirit, the degradation of cowardice must be immeasurably more grievous than the unfelt death which strikes him in the midst of his strength and patriotism!

"Comfort, therefore, not condolence, is what I have to offer to the parents of the dead who may be here. Numberless are the chances to which, as they know, the life of man is subject; but fortunate indeed are they who draw for their lot a death so glorious as that which has caused your mourning, and to whom life has been so exactly measured as to terminate in the happiness in which it has been passed. Still I know that this is a hard saying, especially when those are in question of whom you will constantly be reminded by seeing in the homes of others blessings of which once you also boasted: for grief is felt not so much for the want of what we have never known, as for the loss of that to which we have been long accustomed. Yet you who are still of an age to beget children must bear up in the hope of having others in their stead; not only will they help you to forget those whom you have lost, but will be to the state at once a reinforcement and a security; for never can a fair or just policy be expected of the citizen who does not, like his fellows, bring to the decision the interests and apprehensions of a father. While those of you who have passed your prime must congratulate yourselves with the thought that the best part of your life was fortunate, and that the brief span that remains will be cheered by the fame of the departed. For it is only the love of honour that never grows old; and honour it is, not gain, as some would have it, that rejoices the heart of age and helplessness.

"Turning to the sons or brothers of the dead, I see an arduous struggle before you. When a man is gone, all are wont to praise him, and should your merit be ever so transcendent, you will still find it difficult not merely to overtake, but even to approach their renown. The living have envy to contend with, while those who are no longer in our path are honoured with a goodwill into which rivalry does not enter. On the other hand, if I must say anything on the subject of female excellence to those of you who will now be in widowhood, it will be all comprised in this brief exhortation. Great will be your glory in not falling short of your natural character; and greatest will be hers who is least talked of among the men, whether for good or for bad.

"My task is now finished. I have performed it to the best of my ability, and in word, at least, the requirements of the law are now satisfied. If deeds be in question, those who are here interred have received part of their honours already, and for the rest, their children will be brought up till manhood at the public expense: the state thus offers a valuable prize, as the garland of victory in this race of valour, for the reward both of those who have fallen and their survivors. And where the rewards for merit are greatest, there are found the best citizens.

"And now that you have brought to a close your lamentations for your relatives, you may depart."

Note to Mods, this piece lost any copyright a couple millennia ago
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #99
109. As far as great funeral orations in honor of war dead go,
it may be narrow-minded to believe this, but I think the Gettysburg address is the best I've ever read. The lines:

We can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion.

encompass everything that any other funeral oration has ever attempted to convey, in five compact and poetic lines.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Yeah but I wanted to go back to Thucydides since that is amongst
the first ones we have on record

And it is a hell of a piece of propaganda for the Wars.. after all Athens needed to keep the population behind the war effort

The Gettysburg address is one of the finest, in that I agree..

And the history is amusing... the previous speaker, footnote, Lincoln took what three minutes?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. Owens was hardly a peddler of cliched bullshit.
Read again:

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, --
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.


(Latin: It is sweet and proper to die for your country; a famed quote from Horace.)


You will not find a more vivid, immediate denunciation of the idea of honor in suffering.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. For the record....this is what I was calling cliched bullshit:
"Go ahead, find a vet of Omaha beach, the last good war... sort off, and ask them about honor and glory

They will give a similar answer, it is limited to those who staid over there"

I didn't even read the lame ass poem because its late and I could give two shits.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #74
80. In other words you don't know what you are talking about
nor care to learn

And just because the Omaha beach vet cannot quote Owens regularly, that vet shares the feelings in that poem

But you are right, it is cliche.

Here is another piece of cliche that you will not get either

"Back"

They ask me where I've been,
And what I've done and seen.
But what can I reply
Who know it wasn't I,
But someone just like me,
Who went across the sea
And with my head and hands
Killed men in foreign lands...
Though I must bear the blame,
Because he bore my name.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #80
96. Yes, war is glorious
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #96
102. Your interpretation... and if you hold to it, fine, your interpretation
and those are YOUR WORDS not mine
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #74
89. Damn, Oregone. For someone who thinks you know everything, you obviously don't know humility. (nt)
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. I know everything?
Im merely thought I was aware of how little I, and everyone else, really knows. I thought that was my strength.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. This is like the least interesting flamewar I've ever read.
"did you know what i know? i don't expect you to get it."

"I know what I know, and I get what you know. That's what you don't get."

"but what you get isn't what i get; you only know that i know that you know, you don't know that i know that you know that i know."

"The military is fascist."

"the military is glorious."

"You don't understand fascism."

"you don't know what you're talking about."

"Do you understand that I know what you're talking about?"

"do you understand that you don't know what I'm saying?"
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. LOL....
But Im reveling in its ridiculous nature. But I don't you get it.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon....
...the peoples who have courage to meet it.


Your right, I don't get it.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Yeah, yeah...if that ain't a cliche
Honor and glory to the guy that tells his CO to fuck off. You can call it "mutiny" if you wish, and Ill call it honorable. There aint nothing honorable about helping those imperials destroy a people, a country and a culture illegally, in any way.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. No you fool, mutiny is in the UCMJ
you don't get it

And mutiny in time of war is not well looked upon in ANY military, including the Canadian military

Which I will remind you, is ON THE GROUND in Afghanistan
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. And they need to fucking leave already.
And I do get that it meets the classification. But who gives two fucks? Really now. Give a normal person the choice of mutiny and becoming a reckless, immoral killing machine for imperialists, and I wonder how they'll answer? I wonder how theyll feel for the rest of their lives? I wonder who the "heros" will be?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Not you that's for sure
and the choice of mutiny means death by firing squad, That is why YOU are their voice.

Get it now?

You don't
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. I always got it...
But collecting a paycheck and avoiding firing squad, while being a tool of imperialists, makes NO ONE a "hero".
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. Don't call 9.11 either, after all cops are pigs
:sarcasm:
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Cops are cops. Its their profession. They get paid.
They get a pension. They also get benefits, vacation pay, etc. I fund police with tax dollars, so I will call them when I see fit.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #61
92. But they are pigs, part of the fascist state that oppresses you
That is the proper outlook right?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #92
101. Perhaps thats your outlook. I just think its a job.
Like being a roofer or a fisherman, but less dangerous.

Now, if the government decided to actively oppress the people directly using the police, I would change my mind a bit. In the meantime, in the areas Ive lived, its just a job.

Most of the time the police and the real estate agents Ive ran into were the athletes who got straight B's in high school. The soldiers were the athletes who got straight C's. Just a job, they are.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. PHEIW, at least you are not taking Gramsci's outlook
you had me worried there for a second

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #92
104. I always loved that line in the Cheech and Chong movie where they are pulled over
and their ice cream truck is full of drugs.

Cop: "May I see your license, please sir?"
Chong: "OK... you PIG!"

Cop: "OK sir, here's your license back, thanks, you can go."
Chong: "I know my rights, pig! You can't just pull me over and then just tell kme I can go."


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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Umm what? I'm no legislator and I'm pretty sure you aren't.
How do you "bring them home"?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. You protest, you go on strike, you speak for them
that is how you bring them home

People have forgotten...
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. You really think that any of those methods have any bearing on policy?
Please.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. Yes... funny that you don't get it,
why we have not seen a change in policy

They do, they have, and they will work when a FULL POPULATION goes there

Alas there is T.V to watch tonight


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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. I have a double secret bit of knowledge
It makes me feel warm and fuzzy that no one else does. They are too stupid to understand it. I don't expect you to get it.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Please cite one instance where public outcry has changed the course of foreign policy.
The fact is, it never has. And you are naive if you believe so.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. Just vietnam, took half a decade, but if you think we didn't pull out partially
because of the war in the streets, you are delusional

Of course there are others, the pull out of the Russian Military from WW I, (and that small matter of the Russian Civil War)
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. I thought it was because it became cost ineffective to continue it.
I didn't know the politicians gave two shits about the people in the streets, so long as they didn't get their hippy dirt on their cars.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. They gave a shit. I was there. Were you?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. No, which might mean I can take a more objective, emotionally unattached view
Because if I was sweating my ass off for it, then it is likely I would want to pat myself on the back, credit due or not.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. I wasn't there, but you could see it from where I was standing.
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 01:07 AM by arcadian
Come on. Did you write a book about it professor?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. No, why. Do you read books?
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. Sure, of course.
Why? What do you do with them?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #77
110. My educational facilities only could afford crude chalk and slate
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. So, a coalition of peace activists made demands on the US government
to end the war. And the U.S. government gave into those demands and that "partially" ended the war in Viet Nam? This is your story?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #63
72. That's what happened, As public opinion turned, one by one people who formerly had
supported the war, stopped. That meant new deals had to be cut, more pressures came about to end, it, and finally it was over.

We could have held out in the South forever, if we wanted to. But why would we want to?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. We would still be there if the Peace Movement never formed
Sad that people don't know history, huh?
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #76
85. You told me kumbaya couldn't end wars.
I'm confused now. :shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #85
107. You are asking the soldiers to do it
it is YOUR JOB as a citizen to have a voice for them, to be THEIR VOICE

So far you and I have failed in that respect
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #107
122. Link? Where did I ask soldiers to sing kumbaya?
Also.(long pause) Where exactly is it expressed in the U.S. Constitution that "one of my jobs" is to foment an environment in which U.S. soldiers will not get shot at and killed? Please point that out to me. So much for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
65. Definitely the people slowed Vietnam and finally ended it,.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #65
97. Actually the Viet Nam war lasted for a while after U.S. withdrawl.
Ever pick up a history book?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #97
108. Oh yeah, how long after the withdrawl did it last?
Yes.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #108
125. What is your point?
You said the peace protesters ended the war. Turns out, they didn't. The war went on for quite some time after U.S. withdrawl.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #65
116. The people of Vietnam had no part in ending it?
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #116
124. I guess the Paris accords didn't "really" happen.
A lot of revisionist history going on in this thread.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. The Paris accords DID happen, but the peace movement also had a role to play
if you don't believe it, there is no way we can convince you of that.

But you and I have a role to play, and we have refused to play it in this situation, or failed to do it week in and week out, which is what happened back then

There are many structural reasons as to why people haven't really gotten involved, but we have failed
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #126
130. Speak for yourself.
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 02:02 AM by arcadian
I am under no obligation to be the guardian angel for some kid who joins the military for whatever ill-advised reasons. Maybe he wants to shoot some hajjis, maybe he has a false sense of patriotism from 9/11, maybe he just needs the money. I don't give a fuck. He was a dumb fuck for joining in the first place. Peace movements have zero effect in foreign policy decisions. That is the cold hard fact. The reason we pulled out of Viet Nam is because it was no longer cost effective to be there. The war wasn't about the domino effect or stopping communism to begin with and the vocalisations of the American public did not end the war.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. Then don't bother voting either
and retreat from civil society

You are a spring time patriot, nothing more, and nothing less

It is all about YOU... not WE
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. spring time patriot?
What does that even mean?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #132
134. Google it up... better yet, don't
really

And don't bother voting either

After all that is the MINIMUM duty of a citizen... but I am not too convinced you should do that, since that is also about the WE, not the I

Some of us will pick up the slack for you... it happens every generation
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. You are rude and insulting.
You have no idea who I am. Since it was late last night I'll assume you were posting while incapacitated. For the record, the things you have insinuated about me? Not cool. But you seem to know what truly lies in the heart's of men and feel compelled to shout it out all over the internet to strangers. You are a real piece of work.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. So are you...
but that's ok...

And rude and insulting comes from dealing with people who prefer to live in a fantasy world where soldiers can drop their guns and go home.

And saying that there is nothing YOU can do to affect policy.

Which is BULLSHIT...stinking bullshit

And no, I didn't post while drunk or hi..speaking of insinuating things...piece of work mhy ass... use a mirror
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
62. People don't realize our military takes orders from the people as expressed through our Congress .
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 01:02 AM by John Q. Citizen
and the President.

We the people, through our congress declare war and send our military. The President then executes the war.

A working class hero is something to be.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. The will of the people is expressed through congress?
Go figure, you learn something new every day.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. yep, that's the theory. ever study political theory?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #75
112. Yeah, in my inferior university. But we didn't do it in latin
I got my own theory, and it doesn't quite agree. But to each their own.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. You never believed in the American system anyway
so I know your theory
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #67
115. Yeah, where in the U.S. Constitution does it say THAT?
n/t
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. Well...
The idea is that the will of the people is expressed through Congress, who is elected by the people. But in actuality, the will of the Congress members is expressed by those who are just good at winning elections.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
87. "That my dear is your job and mine, to bring them home." A-FUCKING-MEN!!!
I get so goddamned TIRED of the keyboard chickenshits who spout that condescending crap!! Jeezus! NOT. ONE. FUCKING. CLUE!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #87
120. You and I try to be those voices
but I get tired of waiting for the Keyboard brigade to stop the bullshit and actually take to the streets

But I also blame the teachers for it... we haven't taught this generation how the system works... or in theory how it works

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. In theory, it only works...
If a reasonable and true threat of force is expressed by those that take to the streets, and that threat will only be heeded if it becomes cost-inefficient to ignore/supress them.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #120
128. You must have one of those voice activated computer thingy-mo-bobs
n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. So...er...the IJN was composed of innocent children?
Learn something new every day.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. This is the correct answer on this thread.
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 12:31 AM by arcadian
All others take your toys and go home.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. It's funny that your signature
is a quote from a radical revolutionary who urged armed conflict.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Believe it or not, I urge much the same.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. "Put your gun down and go home. Then pick up a different gun
and start shooting at people there. Civil wars are the best kind."
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Against oppressive regimes
n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Does Imperial Japan count as an oppressive regime?
I'm pretty sure it's practically the definition.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Oh don't worry about them.
We nuked the holy living fuck out them.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. And if they had a time-machine...
Im sure they do it thrice over.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Well, the basic topic is GHWB's purported war heroism in the Pacific theater of WW2. nt
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Lew Ayres was a contientious objector who became a medic in WWII. nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. You know yesterday I was having a talk to a kid who has no clue
about things like this.

And what it takes to go into harms way to pull people out

For the record... most of these actions are never recognized either.

But my hat is off to the Gunny... it takes guts

Or stupidity, or luck or a combo of all the above

And yes god loves fools and idiots, we're entertaining.

Long story...

That said, the bushes, they might be stupid, but they lack the guts part.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. The hallways at Bethesda Naval are lined with photographs of Medics...
cited for bravery - many of them posthumous.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Some rates are full of heroes
Corpsmen are the top of that list.

Unarmed and under fire.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. Another army, another war, I just got lucky
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 12:38 AM by nadinbrzezinski
god loves fools and idiots...

Partner said, I am putting you in

No you're not

Why not?

Will have to 'splain to mom what this piece of metal is for.

:-)

Why when I read about Medics in particular, I have a soft spot for them...

For the record, watching Traffic with mom was an interesting exercise, given I knew what was changed, little, and what was not.


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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
127. What the fuck?
The so called "War on Drugs" is now considered a legitimate conflict? When did that happen?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. It is, for those of us who've been in the middle of it
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 01:53 AM by nadinbrzezinski
I guess the what was it this year 2500 people killed are just potatoes

And in MEXICO it is a war.

I know, if the US does not declare something a war it is not.

So by this logic, WW I started in 1917 and WW II in 1941

Okie dokie

Oh and let me add something else here

Google the term FAILED STATE... our neighbor to the south is moving in that direction, quite fast by the way
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. I guess that is my fault too.
Like it's my fault for not bringing the troops home up thread? :eyes:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. Nah, it is NOT your job to stop that war, that is The duty of Mexican Citizens
see, how that works?

For the record, they are trying

They still believe that they may have a role to play and perhaps be able to someday do it.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
58. A TBF Avenger is most certainly not designed to "land" on water, any more than
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 01:11 AM by salguine
a Boeing 707 or a Buick Skylark are designed to land on water. The very assertion is beyond ridiculous. The placement of its radial engine (with its wide open cowling) alone—i.e., the nose of the plane—would have made a water "landing" completely impossible; no aircraft ever made for water landings has ever been configured that way, and for that reason. Not to mention that it had neither floats nor pontoons, or a watertight fuselage.

You've either confused "ditching" with "landing", or, as I suspect is nearer the mark, you're so eager to have anything bad to say about Poppy Bush that you're resorting to outrageous statements that are both demonstrably false and indicate clearly that you have no idea what you're talking about. I think Poppy's a world-class ass-hat, too, but come on.

And unless you were in the plane yourself, do you reeeeeeeeeally feel qualified to offer an assessment of what Bush could have/should have done? How do you know the crew wasn't killed instantly by the flak hit? Was it even a flak hit, or was it machine-gun fire? Was the plane on fire? Do you even know what type of plane the Avenger is, and what a nerve-wracking feat a pilot has to perform in order to complete a mission?

And Bush didn't get an award for bailing out of his plane; that's an assertion as stupid as the "water landing" one. He was decorated for keeping the plane in the air after it had been hit—and was on fire—long enough to complete his bombing run before getting out.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
119. You deserve it because well you've got your facts wrong... Poppy Bush did not fly a float plane.
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 01:41 AM by ddeclue
He flew TBF (TBM) Avengers which were torpedo planes which launched and landed on carriers NOT the water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TBF_Avenger

They are NOT float planes and are NOT designed to make water landings.

You must be confusing them with the OS2U Kingfisher or the J2F Duck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS2U_Kingfisher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J2F_Duck

As a licensed pilot and an aerospace engineer I can tell you that ditching a land plane on the ocean is a fearsome situation that I would NOT want to actually face. You have to try to land it just right so that you don't plow into the front of a wave preferably on the back side of a swell in the direction of a nice wide trough if possible. Depending on how mixed up and choppy the water is, this may not even be an option. In any case you don't want the plane to flip, tumble, and/or break up on impact if you want to survive a water landing.

Some water ditchings from youtube for those not too faint of heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWyUSdQ2ujY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zuLP-QYiy0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2BSfgnCU2Q&feature=PlayList&p=2A22050299CE2873&playnext=1&index=7


I for one hope I'm never in that situation (although I have flown out over the ocean a few times here in Florida going to the Keys)

Poppy's situation was much worse with a shot up plane so you need to be more reasonable about it and stop saying nasty things about the man for which you have NO evidence. Stick to what you know - when you make things up and get your facts wrong then all you do is look mean and lose credibility.

In any event, Poppy Bush deserves some credit for his WWII service unlike Junior Bush who hid out in the Texas ANG flying obsolete airplanes during Vietnam.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL
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