Make no mistake, SCIENTOLOGY is a nasty-ass organization.

[time_has_come]

Celebrities in scientology are not subjected to the abuse that regular members are.

Celebrities are coddled. They are allowed to live their lives as they choose, mostly, because of their PR value to the cult.

Spend some time viewing the videos at this link if you want to understand scientology.

http://xenutv.com/interviews/index.html

There are many videos there. Don't miss Maria Pia Gardini or the Woodcraft family.

Truth is evident, and scientology is not dealing in it.

[Skittles]

1. it's no more nuttier than any other "religion"

[time_has_come]

2. You're wrong about that.

It abuses it's mesbers in terrible ways.

Please, if you don't know what scientology is, don't lump it with other religions in terms of believer abuse.

[Skittles]

8. other religions do not abuse

:rofl:

[time_has_come]

28. Scientology isn't a religion, first of all. But name a religion that engages in systemic abuse like

scientology does.

Not criminal abuse by bad apples/pedophile ministers, but systemic abuse resulting from poicy.

Blatant and obvious mind-control, money-sucking, medical malpractice and slavery.

Who else does that?

[backscatter712]

32. The Roman Catholic Church...

OK, it's been a while since the Inquisition... but yes, they engaged in all of the above.

To be fair, they're not that abusive today.

[timtom]

54. You're too shallow to try and figure out the differences

But I do enjoy watching you try to think...

[Quantess]

3. Whether it is a bona fide religion is debatable.

In order to progress ranks and rid yourself of thetans, you need to pay them for services. Payments are not voluntary, they are mandatory. You must pay to play. It is a for-profit organization. IMHO, that alone disqualifies it from being a religion.

[Selatius]

4. I think that's why Germany revoked their religious status. nt

[cabluedem]

46. And thanks to Germany for that. Scientology is a SCAM !!! nt

[LeftyMom]

5. Payments are mandatory or nearly so in a lot of religions.

Please don't take that as a defense of Scientology, only as pointing out that they're all shameful scams and the only real difference is that the thin layer of legitimacy is a bit less impressive in this case than in older, more lucrative con jobs, such as the RCC.

But as I was saying, many churches shake their members down, if not always so blatantly. The Mormons famously do so, you can't participate in any of the temple ordinances until you pass your annual worthiness interview which includes everything from an accounting of your tithes to questions about your masturbatory habits. Most other Christian sects are a bit less blatant, but I've heard quite a few more sermons on tithing than on say, giving to the poor, though I seem to recall that Jesus supposedly had a great deal more to say about the latter.

[XemaSab]

16. If you want a bible you can get one for free

If you don't like the way a particular church shakes down its members, you can stop going and go to a different church.

In scientology you have to pay to get to each level. I don't think it's the same.

[KittyWampus]

56. "they're all shameful scams"? Bigot. Tell that to the churches running food kitchens

letting AA use their premises and providing day care.

After all, keeping a building heated and insured for public use is not free.

Your reply and that of Skittles at the top of the thread is a perfect illustration of bigotry on the Left.

[timtom]

57. Oh, please.

That's rather disingenuous of you.

It's more like DU asking for contributions.

Those who have, give.

[pnwmom]

6. It's clear you've never studied comparative religion.

Or Scientology . Scientology's practices put it far out of the mainstream.

[Skittles]

7. who gives a shit?

nuttiness factor is still present

[pnwmom]

9. You have no basis for making that statement when you don't know the

particulars of Scientology.

You're also not accounting for the fact that some religious groups, like Scientology, are fundamentalist -- i.e., take their scripture writings literally (and in the case of Scientology, as science) -- and some do not. People who, for example, believe in the Bible as the literal truth are very different from people who believe it is more akin to inspired poetry, or that it conveys moral truth.

[Skittles]

36. why do you assume I don't know the particulars of Scientology?????

I find all religions nutty

[crispini]

14. Nope, that's bullshit.

That's the same line of thinking that says that the Republicans and the Democrats are the same; that they're both corporatists. While the accusation has a tinge of truth to it, the practical reality is that there is a LOT of difference between the two parties. The gulf between, say, Buddhism and Scientilogy is equally wide, and I say this as someone who has spent some time studying religions.

[Skittles]

37. ridiculous

[EOTE]

59. What a well thought out and insightful post! NT

[juno jones]

17. Check out Operation Clambake

www.xenu.net

The forum there is full of former scientologists and people studying the cult.

Between their eyewitness testimony and the opportunity to read the materials that scientology has attempted to keep secret (and no other 'religion' I know of copyrights their 'holy books' to prevent the public from viewing them) it is really hard to defend them as a religion.

Real religions at least pay lip service to forgiveness and compassion. Scientology does not. Look up the definintions of 'wogs', 'fair play' and 'suppressive personalities'. They alone paint a picture of a master race philosophy that is consumed with the narcissism and paranoia of their founder.

They've got a body count going as well, from abuse and neglect.

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

The only other spurious religion in the US it can be compared to are the follies of the dominionists. I suggest you read about both before you compare them to most mainstream branches of religion, or non-religion for that matter, because they don't really worship anything in scientology, they believe in some shit like xenu and those thetans in your body, but they don't 'worship' anything per se except LRH and he is a guru not a divinity. It's all about self-hypnosis and biofeedback to come into conformity with LRH's ideals of the 'homo novis'. The scientologists are atheists too, actually.

[cemaphonic]

33. That's not really true.

You could maybe say that about its belief system (although, even there, its blatant appropriation of commercial pulp science-fiction of the era seems a lot sillier to me than the beliefs of most established religions), but the cult-like social pathology of the organization is not remotely like other religions, with the exception of the equally dangerous suicide cults like Jonestown.

[Skittles]

39. do you know how many suicides are due to religious crap?

let's say, the kind of religion that says being gay is an abomination?

[Bluenorthwest]

53. People's Temple

Was the church known to most as Jonestown. They were a Christian congregation. They were Bible folks, endtimes folks. Christians gone wild. Prior to going to Guyana, they looked far more like a Warren mega church than like Scientology. Hymns, prayer, Jesus, strong leader who is in cahoots with God. The cross. Eventually they made the leap to thinking Jones was Jesus. But it was still Jesus that they thought they followed. It was still the Bible that they read. That may be difficult for some to deal with, but it is the case.

[cemaphonic]

61. Yeah, but again, I'm talking about the social pathology here not the belief system.

The social and financial isolation of members, combined with an extreme "us vs. the world" viewpoint. Cult of personality around the leader. That sort of thing.

[grace0418]

34. My sister was in Scientology. She was also, like me, raised Catholic. She'll tell you:

Scientology was much worse. First of all, the Catholic church doesn't hunt you down. My sister left Scientology at least 20 years ago, has moved several times, even unlisted her phone number. She just recently got a visit from some people from the cult, and they left dvds in her mailbox to convince her to return. Even her neighbors were questioned about her whereabouts, how creepy is that? I can tell you that no one from my childhood Catholic parish has tried to track me down or questioned my neighbors about me. That's fucked up.

[Skittles]

38. so one is worse than the other

they still suck

[grace0418]

49. Your original point was that Scientology was no nuttier than any other religion.

And I'm telling you that it's far nuttier.

[cabluedem]

47. Leaving unregistered or unstamped items in a mailbox is a federal offence. nt

[grace0418]

50. Oh, they probably got around that on a technicality like leaving it next to or

near her mailbox. They seem to know their way around legal loopholes.

[LanternWaste]

51. Or any human construct...

"it's no more nuttier than any other "religion"

Or any human construct which exist no where but our own minds-- philosophy, politics, etc.

[Dorian Gray]

55. You can make that argument

but they have strong-arm tactics that other religions don't use, irrespective of actual beliefs/tenets.

[AngryAmish]

60. Wrong

Compare an Anglican, which means you do have a belief in the supernatural but don't really have to do anything really crazy to people in the Pentacostal churches which speak in tongues and handle poisonous snakes.

I submit that the snake handlers are nuttier.

In fact, it is like comparing someone who has a phobia of spiders to someone with full-blown schitzophrenia. While both are nutty, one is qualitatively sicker than the other.

[rcrush]

10. I found this a long time ago

http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

[RandomThoughts]

11. People have the right to believe what they want

And I choose not to focus on other peoples thoughts, that I consider misguided. But if I was to comment on Scientology, I would have to say I believe it is a doctrine off the path. But that comes from my beliefs.

My argument for my comment does not point at individuals, for I don't know them, but my experiences and how I believe many of their people developed their own beliefs.

Their actions of secrecy and lack of tolerance to those that question methods or there beliefs also makes me wary of the group.

And their thoughts of it being alien, could be replaced with spiritual creatures that want things to be seen as part of the normal world.

[pnwmom]

13. The problem is when they subject children to unhealthy practices

or try to sell their program to public schools (which they're trying to do, with their "drug education" programs, for example.)

[juno jones]

19. Please see my post #17

We all need to know what is really going on with them. There are good links there to the best exposures on the net.

[pokercat999]

12. Three thousand years from now will the people look at

today's "god" as we look at the ancient gods like Ra, etc? Belief systems that were totally incorrect, misguided and even harmful?

[XemaSab]

15. I watched the Woodcraft interview

WOW... I knew they were a cult, but hearing about it firsthand....

And the worst part was listening to the guy at the end and realizing that part of his brain was still in scientology.... :(

[juno jones]

21. I've been posting this all over the thread

www.xenu.net

The Clambake forums are eye openers, and most of the members are former scientologists and people who are closely studying them.


Scary stuff.

[provis99]

18. how many wars has the Scientology church started?

uh huh, just what I thought. Now how many wars has the Catholic church started?

I would take the scientologists over a maniacal death cult like the Catholic church anyday.

[juno jones]

20. xenu.net

the forums there are mind-blowing

see my post #17

see also

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Scientology has a body count and they have declared war on humankind in the name of 'homo novis'.

The catholic church started out small. Scientology has only been around for fifty years or so. If they haven't started a war yet, it's not for lack of trying. And as 'wogs' we are 'fair game', to be taken out by all means at hand.

[RandomThoughts]

22. This kind of stuff is the red flags for an organization.

"And as 'wogs' we are 'fair game', to be taken out by all means at hand."

The creation of us/them, and then things like attacking others, is a consitent part of what I do not want to be part of.

At the same time, if I met a Scientologist I would try to find the good parts of the person, and just not partake of that which I disagree with, while trying to be kind.

:shrug:

What can you say.

(Edit: LOL, and if they considered me what you call a wog, and were going to do something bad, they would have to stand in line. I kinda got a feeling I have upset a few people from quite a few groups over the years. No need to dwell on it, I am sure there are probably some people that like me too, just part of life, and you can only be the person you want to be, nothing more.

:shrug:

)

[Rebubula]

23. Time and effort

That is all it takes to create a worldwide cult.

The catholic cult has had a 2000 year (most of them during a time when people have little to no education outside of the bible) head start. The xenu cult is on its way with slick spokespeople and offers of enlightenment to those that have become disillusioned with established cults.

To dismiss the xenu cultists as benevolent or harmless is short sighted. I suspect many pagans back around 120 C.E. were looking at the early christ cultists in the same manner.

[EFerrari]

41. Scientology literally practices mind control. They are dangerous.

The first thing they do is teach their new people to go into a dissociative state when they hear criticism of Scientology. They are a whole different problem than the Catholic Church.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. I hate Methodists.

[Starry Messenger]

25. I always thought everyone knew this.

I'm surprised by how much defense Scientology gets here. The advantages in exposing its negatives are manifold. It's been creeping its way in to the mainstream but it is still new enough that most of its deceptive origins are available on the net for anyone to read. It has been declared illegal in several large European countries.

[time_has_come]

29. They've been proficient in PR, and DU'ers are as likely to fall victim to a good PR campaign as

anyone else.

Before I became familiar with their human rights abuses I figured they were just another religion that should be left in peace.

Now I now better, and it's important to talk about them so people are armed with the truth and won't become victims of scientology.

[Beaverhausen]

30. How many do you know personally?

I know a lot of them and they are normal, happy people. I have also be inside the Celebrity Center several times and lived to tell the tale.

They might be weird but if it works for them, who are you to judge them? All religions have their problems.

[time_has_come]

44. Do you know anyone in the sea org?

I've met members of the sea organization. They are not normal, happy people.

I also knew a person in my local org, and they were not happy. They were stressed beyond belief.

It sounds like you knew celebrity scientologists, is that correct?

Have you watched any of the videos in the original post?

Watch Maria Pia Gardini's story. That kind of testimony is repeated over and over again by many ex-members. What's your reaction to that?

[Beaverhausen]

63. I know people who used to work at the sea org

The scientologists I know are not celebs*, but this being Los Angeles it's hard not to know some of them. Really, all the scientologists I know are nice people. I performed some shows at the Celebrity Center back in the mid-90s and another one a few years ago (I'm a singer/songwriter). Believe it or not, no one tried to get me to join or audit me or anything.

This is my personal experience with them, so I don't go around trashing them.






*OK, I did meet Tom Cruise's sister's ex-husband once or twice. Does that count?

[time_has_come]

64. I don't go around trashing them either.

And I take it from your non-response that you haven't watched the videos in the OP.

Victims of scientology can be "nice people". They're no different than anyone else, they've just become victims.

[spinbaby]

26. L. Ron Hubbard founded Scientology to make money

He was pretty open about it, too, so it never ceases to amaze me that Scientology is still going. A fool born every minute, I suppose.

[cabluedem]

48. Hubbard outright *bragged* about how gullible most people are

to the *real* sci-fiction authors of his time. His sci-fi works are complete trash, like his made into a (bad) movie "Battlefield Earth".

Like P.T. Barnham said: "there is a sucker born every minute".

Make NO mistake: Scientology IS a cult, and a very bad one at that.

[madrchsod]

27. i used to work where all their literature was printed and mailed

this organization is`t close to being any "religion". it is a cult of the dead ron hubbard who was a bad science fiction writer and was insane before his death. these guys who run this are just plain creepy....

[backscatter712]

31. Scientology is dangerous.

It's a vicious cult, that blackmails its members using their "auditing" sessions, isolates them from family and friends, and sucks them dry. If you get on their shitlist, they can and do engage in everything from petty harassment to murder - if you're not part of the cult, or you're a Suppressive Person, they cite their "fair game" doctrine (in other words, if you're not one of them, they consider it perfectly moral to ruin you.)

Scientology kills.

[sakabatou]

35. I knew that already.

[DefenseLawyer]

40. Whatever gets one through the night

As long as they stay off my lawn, I'm good.

[time_has_come]

43. I don't think that would be your attitude

if you understood what scientology does to people.

You're here, so I'm guessing your a progressive person who believes in humane treatment of people, in human rights. Assuch, you probably care when an organization abuses people and their human rights, regardless of whether they're on your lawn while doing it.

[DefenseLawyer]

45. I would say this

If there are specific cases of "abuse" at the hands of others, be they Scientologists or rotarians or boy scouts, and you are aware of those situations, I would hope you would intervene and help those people and report the abusers to the authorities. Otherwise, I would hope you would let adult people make their own choices, for better or worse, despite how screwy you think those choices are. But that's just me.

[agent46]

42. Be aware

Be aware of any religion that builds and keeps "files" on its followers. Scientology wrote the book on psychological coersion. Others will inevitably model Scientology's methods because they've proven effective.

[grace0418]

52. Exactly. That's what completely creeped me out earlier this year when

my sister started getting visits and materials from them soooo many years after she cut all ties with the group.

[Beausoleil]

58. It was a scam from the beginning

Most other religions weren't started that way. Maybe by the delusional and paranoid, but not as outright scams.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3071761&mesg_id=3072736

(Harlan) Ellison: That's true. He wrote Dianetics in one weekend, and you know how he used to write? He used to take a roll of white paper, like paper you wrap fish in. He had it on the wall, and he would roll it into the typewriter and he would begin typing. When he was done, he would tear it off and leave it as one whole long novel.

We were sitting around one night... who else was there? Alfred Bester, and Cyril Kornbluth, and Lester Del Rey, and Ron Hubbard, who was making a penny a word, and had been for years. And he said "This bullshit's got to stop!" He says, "I gotta get money." He says, "I want to get rich".

Wings: He is also supposed to have said on that same night: "The question is not how to make a million dollars, but how to keep it."

Ellison: Right. And somebody said, "why don't you invent a new religion? They're always big." We were clowning! You know, "Become Elmer Gantry! You'll make a fortune!" He says, "I'm going to do it." Sat down, stole a little bit from Freud, stole a little bit from Jung, a little bit from Alder, a little bit of encounter therapy, pre-Janov Primal Screaming, took all that bullshit, threw it all together, invented a few new words, because he was a science fiction writer, you know, "engrams" and "regression", all that bullshit. And then he conned John Campbell, who was crazy as a thousand battlefields. I mean, he believed any goddamned thing. He really believed blacks were inferior. I mean he really believed that. He was also very nervous when I was in his office because I was a Jew. You know, he was afraid maybe I would spring horns or something.

...

So science fiction fans picked it up, they began proselytizing, he started making money, when he had made enough money he was able to spread out a little more, then he got more cuckoos, you know, pre-Charlie Manson assholes that had no place else to go, and he began talking to these loons as if Dianetics really meant something. Then he wanted to get tax-exempt status, so he called it "The Church of Scientology".

Now, they've gotten so big that they own property all over the country, and it is impossible to stop it. They infiltrated the FBI, they infiltrated the tax department... , the funny thing is, Ron Hubbard and I still occasionally communicate with each other. Every once in a while, a couple or three times a year, we exchange letters. And I write to him, you know, and I say, "Hey Ron, when is this bullshit going to cease? These cuckoos are really driving me crazy! They come around the house with pamphlets!" And he writes me back, and he says, "It's the good work, it's the good work."

[Vinnie From Indy]

62. Battlefield Earth was hilariously bad!