In your view, how much of today's deep shit is a direct result ............

[Stinky The Clown]

....... of the bushies and how much of it is systemic and might have happened no matter who was in charge?

Just by way of example, it can be argued by reasonable people that 9/11 would have happened even if Gore were in charge.

Just by way of example, Katrina **would** have happened, no matter who was in charge. (that statement is about the storm - not the response).

Just by way of example, Iraq likely would not have happened under a President Gore.

How much shit - and which big turds - do you think are directly attributable to George W. Bush?

[spanone]

1. katrina would have been dealt with differently as with iraq, afghanistan, the economy and so on

[aquart]

6. Not being beggared by war would have helped our credit markets.

However, signing Glass Steagal made this whole bloody financial mess inevitable. And the little addition the Gramm added to whichever bill making derivatives legal? Yeah, that would have happened.

Tell me why we aren't allowed to hang people for financial massacres?

[Donnachaidh]

2. you have to go back to Saint Ronnie to really attribute this mess

He started the ball rolling with de-regulation and his attacks on unions. If this situation NOW had a proverbial *firing shot* it would have to be Saint Ronnie Reagan's all out attack on the air traffic controllers.

[KansDem]

13. Not to mention the Bush Family...

In the last 28 years, we've had Bush Family meddling in the White House for 20 of those years. They left their mark...

[baldguy]

3. Whatever situation or circumstance he was presented with - Bush actively worked to make it worse.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Isn't that the truth!

[Skink]

4. The eroding of civil liberties on an unprecedented scale, Secrecy.

The financial collapse might have been staved off under a different admin but would have happened anyway.

[dmallind]

7. hey this is DU - it's all the fault of Clinton and the DLC remember! NT

;jlkj

[sinkingfeeling]

8. My question is, "Where has the President been for 8 years?" His duty is to respond to

things beyond his direct control, like Katrina and 9/11, with a reasoned, sensible action. He neglected everything, the economy, the roads and bridges, the poor, etc. He deliberately involved us in Iraq and his policies caused the extreme debt.

Deregulation was fathered by St. Ronnie and stuff Phil Gramm.

[Warpy]

9. It's been systemic since the Reagan revolution

and Stupid was just lucky enough to be stupid enough to hurry the end game along so it happened while he was still in office.

The systemic problem is that conservatives have been running it and conservatives believe the basic fallacy that the economy runs from the top down. They choke off wages while favoring the wealthy. The wealthy, not being stupid, hoard instead of investing in infrastructure since there are so few customers for goods and services.

What caused the scam to appear to work for as long as it did was easy credit. Now the country is drowning in debt and the wealth that was inflated by ownership of debt that can never be paid off is evaporating.

That's the short answer.

Obviously, if we want this country to survive we'll have to resurrect and rehabilitate Keynes while burying Friedman with a stake through his shriveled heart so his stupidity never arises again.

[lapfog_1]

10. 9/11 was an event.

and, other than being more successful, the same even DID happen while Clinton was President. The same group (if you believe the government story) bombed the same place in an attempt to collapse the same towers.

The response afterward is partially responsible for the "mess we are in".

We would not have been spending $1T or more in Iraq had Bush not been President. Money which could have paid for

a) rebuilding the levees around New Orleans (and Sacramento CA) thus not preventing Katrina, at least eliminating the more horrid aspects of the disaster.

b) money spent on beefing up inspectors and regulators for the banking and lending businesses, possibly avoiding the burst housing bubble and subsequent depression.

c) finally deciding to kick the oil habit. Pushing detroit to retool (providing them with low cost loans) so that they could have been producing electric vehicles and hybrids... and doing so at a lower cost point so that when the oil shock happened, it wouldn't have contributed as much to the second great depression which has followed, possibly with b) avoiding it altogether.

We would have raised even more money for the treasury by NOT passing the Bush tax cuts.

With THAT money, we could have adopted some form of universal health care reform, not to mention paying DOWN the federal debt rather than doubling it. And providing more money for our light and heavy industries to retool and rebuild and become competitive in a global manufacturing marketplace.

That's off the top of my head. Of course, add in the torture and illegal wiretaps, etc, etc, etc. that would not have happened...

[Hydra]

11. 9/11 would not have happened under Gore's watch

At the very least, Bushco provided every screen possible to allow it to happen, from derailing the FBI's investigation to holding an exercise at NORAD on the same day regarding hijacked planes.

Mind you, our system is the problem at the root- Bush could never have been in a position to do all of these things had the system not been broken in the first place.

[jpljr77]

12. Most of the financial-specific damage can be laid at the feet of Reagan and....

The "Republican Revolution" Congress of the mid/late 90s (and yes, a complicit/uninvolved Clinton).

Deregulation, deregulation, union-busting, deregulation, let's help corps ship jobs overseas, deregulation.

The genesis lay with Reagan, but when the new Congress took over in 1995, they got to work on continuing the job. And it was perfect timing. With massive government and private sector revenues, stemming in large part from the tech boom, no one thought twice about converting the U.S. to a service-based, middle management economy.

When the tech bubble burst, growth had to continue. So to give Wall Street investors a place to stash their cash, banks loosened lending standards and securitized bullshit-ass loans. When that crashed...well, we all know the rest.

[AndyA]

14. I think if Gore had been in office instead of Shrub, things would be vastly different today.

I don't think 9/11 would have happened. I doubt Gore would have ignored the warnings as Bush did. I remember seeing an American Airlines ticket clerk state that she was suspicious of one of the hijackers, and that if any general warnings had been issued, anything at all, she would have alerted her supervisor.

That's one hijacker that might not have made it on board. And with one of them detained, it would be easy to see where the others might not have gone through with it.

I think in almost every area, Gore would have been more proactive instead of reactive (or just plain ignorant), and I really believe that we wouldn't recognize life in America at the end of 8 Gore years vs. what we have today.

The Supreme Court should have minded its own business. Election counts are STATE issues, not Federal.

[liberalmuse]

15. I think most of it, really.

We've been watching Bush for 8 years. How many of us saw this coming well in advance? I did, and I'm pretty much an average American with average intelligence. If for some reason Gore had called off FBI survelliance on bin Laden a month after he got into office, completely ignored the Hart-Rudman report and gave $30 million dollars to the Taliban a few months before 9/11, I doubt he would have disregarded the pdf file, 'Bin Laden determined to attack the U.S.', but even if for some reason 9/11 had happened under his watch, or some other equivalent event, you can bet the response would have been much different. I believe most of those responsible would have already been brought to justice.

We may have had an economic downturn, because economies expand and contract, but not due to the excessive greed, an astronomical military budget due to two wars, and mass theft by no bid contracts doled out to Bush cronies. We may have had a housing bubble and bust, but not nearly to this extent. Bush provided the environment for this by insisting Greenspan continue to lower interest rates. I've seen this shit before, and oddly enough, it has only happened under Republican Presidents. Republicans are the dregs of humanity in every imaginable way possible and their ilk should never be given the reigns of power, because they WILL abuse it. What else am I to think?

I truly believe Gore wouldn't have been sitting on his ass, or eating cake and playing guitar for photo ops as New Orleans was being devastated. He'd have someone competent as head of FEMA who would act quickly. Bush's lack of response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster is the most criminal act I've witnessed in my lifetime. He should hang for that one alone.

[Two Americas]

16. neither

While the trouble, of course, was caused by the program of the right wing, so too is a leaking roof caused by the rain. But blaming the rain does no good, we should look to the roofer.

The right wing program, advancing the needs and desires of the wealthy and powerful few is a constant, and ever-present threat. Nothing has changed there for the last 80 years. The right wingers, on behalf of their powerful clients, have been relentlessly and ruthlessly battling for the same things all along.

What has changed, what has allowed the right wing to have such spectacular success in recent years, is the lack of any serious opposition.

"Who is in charge" is not so important, rather we should look at who the people in charge are fighting for.

[Ilsa]

17. Gore probably would have tried to get the levies

fixed before Katrina in 2005. Maybe they would have been able to withstand the storm surge.

[BrklynLiberal]

18. I do not believe that 9/11 would have happened under Gore. He would not have ignored all the

warnings as prez shit-for-brains did. I will always believe that 9/11 was lihop, at least...

[ColbertWatcher]

19. Not just Bush-- the Republican party!

We have to get away from trying to put this on one person!

This has been a systematic clusterfuck brought to us by the GOP.

And after Bush is gone, another GOP asshole will gladly carry the torch and carry on.

[Blue Meany]

20. As far as economics goes, I think Bush accelerated

a process that has been going on at least since the Reagan era: the loss of industrial capacity, the decline of the middle-class, imprudent use of natural resources, and an unsustainable way of life. This was largely concealed first by women entering the work-force in large numbers, mitigating the decline of the middle class; and then by financial bubbles of various sorts; and by a credit economy.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

21. The Reagan Administration paved the way for the

economic and social catastrophes we are living through currently.
The Clinton Administration was the fork in the road and had Gore
been seated as he should have we would have averted the war
and the economic devastation. When the Supreme Court handed
the election to Bush, they sealed our fate.

[madokie]

22. Everything pretty much wrong today is the result of neoCON bullshit

with junior being the latest to carry the torch. In all seriousness I'd say at least 95% can be laid at the bush/cheney administrations feet.

[4 t 4]

23. I agree with you

but say more like 100%

[Javaman]

24. I like to look at it like a giving a pyromaniac a flame thrower...

the pyro was setting fires but was using matches, that is until moron* and his room full of dopes came along.

[Winterblues]

25. The Bush* Cabal went all out for their "Star Wars"

and dedicated ZERO towards Terror Prevention. There were reports placed on the Oval Office desk concerning the problems of Terrorism and they went completely unread. Cheney was put in Charge of Terrorism and he held exactly ZERO meeting before 9-11. They were living in the WW II era and had not a single thought about terrorism or preventing any terror attacks.. It just wasn't on their radar... Both Clinton and Gore considered it the number one priority. Bush* didn't consider it at all. We had eight years of Peace and Prosperity under Clinton/Gore and we had eight years of War and Debt under Bush*. It didn't just happen to them..