Interesting point of view: The Democratic Party kept Lieberman and kicked out Howard Dean.

[thunder rising]

No money from me till there is an explanation.

[madeline_con]

1. Oh, for chrissakes!

:puke:

[HillbillyBob]

2. same here, no more $ or I love yous (a la Annie Lennox)

disgusted with obama i dont give a good g damn what he changes now he is not going to change the corrupt washington atmosphere.

[midnight]

3. That is a very good point to raise. I wonder what the explaination

will be? Dr. Dean brought in so many young people to take this country back, and now they are watching this development. It just doesn't appear to be well thought out.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

29. Dean was betrayed twice along with those who supported him ....

My son was very involved with supporting Dean financially --

Now, he won't vote any more. Can you blame him?

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Easy.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
- Mark Twain

[Occam Bandage]

5. Howard Dean was not kicked out. He said a year ago that he was going to step down

at the end of his term. He is still a member of the Democratic Party.

[ThomCat]

10. Yes, but he's a member who hasn't been offered any new

position in the administration. No cabinet level position, or even a second tier position.

Rahm Emanuel's fued with him is well known and long running, but it's really unneeded sour grapes to deny Dean any ongoing place in the party just because Emanuel is pissed off that Dean did well. Emanuel should choke on it, admit that he was wrong, and make sure Dean is kept busy in the party.

[Occam Bandage]

14. Neither was David Plouffe, despite having done far more for Obama's Presidential campaign.

Cabinet posts are not payment for services tendered. Dean will likely remain busy in the party, just not with a Cabinet level post, nor with an insulting lower-tiered DNC post. Like Clinton, McAuliffe, and Gore before him, his role will be in backrooms, receptions, and meetings.

[ThomCat]

17. I hope that's true.

:)

I think he was too much of a moderate (meaning, right-leaning democrat) as governor, but he clearly has a lot of skills and talent for administration. We have too many mouthpieces who don't necessarily accomplish much, and too few people with track records of really getting things done. This man's history should make him worth gold in the party.

[Occam Bandage]

19. I do hope a significant portion of his power base follows him.

I'm not part of the Beltway circle, so I can't say how things are shaping up, but I have to believe that he managed to build an organization to continue to advance his agenda in the party even after he retired. After all, he knew his retirement was coming, and when he announced his retirement he knew that that the Presidency (and thus party control) would likely be either in the hands of the Clinton wing again or in the hands of the wild-card Obama. I can't imagine that someone with the brains and skill of Dean would gamble everything on a cabinet spot--and then not even make any visible push for a cabinet spot.

[ThomCat]

21. It's more or less tradition that you don't push too openly for

a cabinet spot. Even Clinton didn't ask for one. As far as I can see she let her people let it be known that she was interested. So the fact that Dean didn't campaign for a cabinet spot is normal.

The fact that Dean stepped down is one of the good, principled things he's done. He has come out against people having power for too long. He has said that power should change hands. So he said early that he didn't intend to keep this power for long, and he kept that promise. I think that's a separate issue from campaigning for a next position. But both decisions ultimately reflect well upon him.

Ultimately, that does leave him in the hands of whomever won the election, and that was a gamble. I am sure he probable thought he was better off with Obama winning than with Clinton. After all, his big feud was with the DLC, and Clinton was the DLC candidate.

But now Obama is moving quickly to the right and firmly into DLC views. So it's all up in the air. Dean will hopefully land on his feet. But what we're all waiting to see is whether or not he does it with any help from the party, or if he has to do it all on his own.

[ThomCat]

6. Dean rebuilt the dem infrastructure in a lot of states

and helped the party win, but he's apparently out the door. Lieberman campaigned for republicans and against democrats, but he's still keeping his positions of authority given by the party.

Yes, that totally sucks, and it would be very interesting to find out why. Who are the people making decisions in Washington who think that Lieberman is really worth keeping in power as an ally, and Dean isn't?

[Occam Bandage]

8. Obama's said that Kaine will be following Dean's 50-state blueprint.

Dean is stepping down voluntarily, as he has been planning on doing for a year. What, exactly, is the problem?

[ThomCat]

12. The problem is that Dean now has no new position in the party.

He is definitely qualified and available. He should certainly be tapped for something. Leaving him out in the cold is a huge waste of talent.

The apparent reason for wasting this talent is because Rahm Emanuel doesn't like being wrong, and likes to bury his mistakes.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Rahm Emanuel is turning into the new Karl Rove for the lefty blogosphere.

A shadowy boogeyman whose fingerprints are on every decision and every break that goes against their desires, whose power is apparently unlimited and unchecked, and who reports to nobody. C'mon, nobody believes that the only possible use of talent in Washington is Cabinet posts and DNC chairmanships (which, mind you, Dean had announced he would be stepping down from a year ago). Dean will take his power base and head up an organization or a think tank, and will remain very active in the Democratic party.

[ThomCat]

That's not true at all.

If you don't know the history of the feud between them then you can certainly go back and look into it. As chief of staff Emanuel certainly has influence over who gets appointments and who doesn't.

But turning this into a "boogeyman" argument sounds like you really don't know what's going on, but you want to say something vague and believe you're right.

Yes, Dean will take his power base and do something, but that doesn't mean people are wrong in saying that he could have been reasonably offered a position, and wasn't given that offer because of internal sour grapes within the party.

[Malikshah]

38. Rahm is a boogeyman. His methods might get results, but at times the ends do not justify the means

If he had his druthers, the 50 state solution would have been stifled at birth.

Rahm is not the goldenchild people cast him as. He's someone who needs to be watched in my opinion, and called to the carpet or canned if he sullies the White House with his modus operandi.

[defendandprotect]

31. No .... it's because Dean isn't moving party to the right . ..

which is the direction the DLC is moving the party --

Dean is looking for progressive candidates ---

DLC/Emmanuel are looking for repressive/Repug candidates to oppose progressive Dems --

[ThomCat]

33. I would say that we're both correct.

I don't think Emanuel is quite republican, but you're right that he's farther to the right than Dean and he's got a history of pulling the party strongly to the right.

[defendandprotect]

35. DLC is committed to moving party to the right -- corporate wing of Dems . . .

DLC says that clearly --

Another problem with Emmanuel is he is a religious fanatic, is he not?

And has joint citizenship -- Israeli and US . . . does he not?

Strong interests in AAIPAC . . . ?

[thunder rising]

36. Right 'cause we all know the DNC should be a BI-PARTISAN type of person ... NOT!

[defendandprotect]

32. dupe

[wyldwolf]

7. no, a very ignorant point of view

[lonestarnot]

9. What bullshit.

[NeedleCast]

13. Kicked Out?

I'm betting this is just a one hit wonder post and the OP wont be back, but just in case I'm wrong, please explain how, exactly, Howard Dean was "kicked out" of the party?

Some of you take this cult of personality shit way to far.

[thunder rising]

37. Hey Buddy, I found your shitty little comment. HD deserved a soft landing and got none. He

deserves more than anybody but Obama to be on that stage.

[ananda]

16. It's a bassack world we live in.

Lady Macduff's words ring so aptly here.

But I remember now
I am in this earthly world; where to do harm
Is often laudable, to do good sometime
Accounted dangerous folly

[tnlefty]

18. I threw my membership renewal in the trash this afternoon.

I don't need an explanation. After his hard work Howard Dean stepped down (his choice) and was kicked to the curb and his replacement is an anti-woman, anti-gay, anti- stem cell research, anti-labor....not my kind of democrat. (madfloridian had an insightful post on Kaine's positions).

[DFW]

20. I will go out on a limb and risk a hunch that it was very well thought out

I think it was a calculated risk based on a "nothing to lose" point of view.

I think that in this case that one of the simplest of explanations is also the
most accurate. For no other reason than harboring a grudge since 2006, Rahm
Emmanuel has talked Obama and his team into shutting Howard out. They most likely
couched it in terms of "we harbor no ill will, but on a practical basis, Howard
is too partisan, too abrasive, and will negate the big bi-partisan spirit we
are trying to evoke." The fact that Howard is extremely smart, knowledgeable,
energetic and capable, as well as very experienced, was apparently omitted from
the equation, and Obama has bigger fish to fry at this point. He probably saw
a cabinet post for Howard as a "reward," when it would have been the country he
was rewarding, not Howard. It would be Rahm Emmanuel who sees Howard's exclusion
as a "reward denied," when Howard wasn't out for a "reward" in the first place.

Howard wanted to be placed where he could do the most good. I'd say he proved his
worth in his four years at the DNC. To put Tom Daschle at HHS wasn't a bad move,
just not, in my opinion, the best move. Would Emmanuel make a move that would assuage
his ego, but be detrimental to the country? I have seen the guy up close. I don't
know him like I know Howard, but if I had to guess, I'd say yes in a heartbeat. Rahm
knew full well that as Obama's newly appointed chief of staff, Obama wouldn't even
give a hint of second-guessing him on a subject such as Howard's future--and so he had
absolutely NOTHING to lose by erasing Howard's name from the Obama administration's
collective consciousness. This is no haphazard turn of events. It was well thought-out.

What Rahm doesn't get is that making Howard into an American Andrei Sakharov won't
work. Howard made himself famous via the internet, and Rahm Emmanuel can't erase
that. Howard is popular and admired for speaking his mind, not for being adept at
political intrigue and back-stabbing. That isn't Howard's style, never was, and never
will be. That is why you will not hear Howard whining or complaining. He will make
himself useful, and when Rahm stumbles, as egomaniacs often do when they get their
way, there will be cries for Howard to come back.

Knowing Howard, he'll come running when called, and help out to the best of his ability.

Like any great man would.

**on edit: I do not think that the OP was implying that Howard had been kicked out of the
party, just kicked out of any position of consequence whatsoever. No one here ever was of
the impression that Howard had left, or been kicked out of the Democratic Party, gimmme a
break. He'll be over here in Europe in just 2 weeks, heading a fundraiser for guess who? The
DNC of course!

[ThomCat]

22. That squares mostly with what I think too.

Though I think Dean would have appreciated some kind of reward for all his work. I don't think he's so incredibly selfless that he don't want to be recognized or appreciated for his hard work. But he definitely has better discipline and manners than Emanuel.

[DFW]

25. Howard is well aware that he is indeed recognized and appreciated for his work

He is very much on top of what is going on. For now, he will be sort of a
hybrid version of Bill Clinton (making a living giving speeches, which he
does very well) and participating in think tank projects, mostly on health
care. Ever since his little talk with Al Gore in 2004, he has learned to move
on in favor of the bigger picture. He will, too, but like with Gore, it will be
the country that loses out if he fades too far into the background.

[ThomCat]

23. Delete. Duplicate

[madfloridian]

24. Hey there, DFW....good for you. I much respect your views.

:applause:

[DFW]

26. Thanks, MF, but keep in mind

For reasons you are well aware of, the subject of Howard is hardly one
I approach with the greatest of objectivity!

:hi:

[madfloridian]

27. Quite aware of that. That's ok, you know. Subjective is good also

Hey, I posted some more here with a pic from Samoa.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4817262&mesg_id=4817262

[TheKentuckian]

28. Dean didn't want to be a "honorary", sidekick, toothless, DNC Chair

and said so a while ago that he didn't want to continue if we won the White House.

At that point you figure him for HHS or failing that CoS, anything else would vary between not his bag and an actual snub like Surgeon General. In those cases I think Emmanuel is better suited for CoS exactly because he a brutal, classless, hyperpartisan douchebag and that Daschle is less of a lighting rod for the various enemies of health care reform and is also disliked quite unfairly and irrationally by a sizable percentage of his own party.

I love and appreciate Dean but I just don't see how it is so hard to see why certain political decisions were made here unless you refuse to accept that Dean isn't a political lighting rod for way too many different angles. Dean supporters are very sane folks, snae folks often fail to account for batshit insanity well. Sorry, but SOME of the right end of the party, the whorish media, and all Republicans are nuts and despise the good doctor. Such a coalition would lock on to inane bullshit and scuttle any kind of improvement in health care with him at HHS. Its going to be uphill and compromised enough without adding any extra targets or weight.

[defendandprotect]

30. What's your guess on what message . . .

that's sending to non-DLC Democrats -- ???

[defendandprotect]

34. Note not only the rise of the DLC . . .

but Rahm Emmanuel is a Fundi/neo-con of sorts, isn't he . . .

Daschle is a "pro-lifer" . . . ? Maybe in hiding at this point?

And, Kaine . . . is another religous fanatic, isn't he?

So, we also have a powerful lot of religious representation in this administration?

Am I wrong?