Cheap. Chinese. CRAP.

[HughBeaumont]

Yesterday, my little nephew turned two. Since he's really into the Pixar movie Cars, his grandparents gave him a decent bench/storage thing to put his toys in. It's . . . "made in China", just like pretty much everything under the sun is, and they bought it from Wal-Mart, naturally. Not that it matters, as cheap Chinese Crap is sold pretty much everywhere driveable and there's no avoiding it. Being at a kids party and not really interested in the Philly/NY game, which was all but over at this point, I volunteered to assemble this thing so nephew can start puttin' his toys away.

So I open this thing up and the first thing I noticed was the overwhelming paint/lacquer/whatever smell. I mean, these pieces were HUMMING, stronger than usual. I couldn't help but think how many third world, zero-health-standard, penny-a-hundred workers have to inhale this stuff times 20, but if the stench of paint is this bad coming out of the box, I imagine overexposure will mean a short life for a lot of these neo-slaves.

After much re-working of the parts to get the fasteners to turn, the bench is assembled. Uh, wait. The entire bench seat graphic is upside-down. I had to do a double take with the box to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Did I get the holes messed up? No, the bench has a back piece that can only be fastened one way. Sure enough, the box revealed that the bench lid was indeed defective and the graphic came out reversed.

Two weeks prior, I got a Christmas present that I had to assemble. It's a stand to keep my clothes, devices and keys on, so they're all in one place; kind of like an executive valet stand. Supposedly by an American corporation . . . but the parts were indeed "Made in China". Open it up, and the damned thing is missing two screws . . . the ones used to fasten the stand to the base. So I had to go to Home Depot, match the thread and assume the length and buy the two screws (also . .. "made in China or Taiwan") to get this thing made.

So what are the odds of encountering two gifts in the same month with either shoddy worksmanship or missing parts? Is this just more of a certainty today now that we don't make anything anymore?

[dbackjon]

1. Pretty much standard

IT is crap coming out of China. Dangerous crap, too.

[sentelle]

31. Its not because of China that it's crap

Its because the companies (American companies) care only for profit, and do not care for quality.
They went to China, and Particularly with the people that make what they do, because of cost. They did not care when there was no quality control. They did not care to do quality control even when quality control issues became apparent.

In fact, they only time they stop manufacturing in China is when someone dies, or if the chinese did not fulfill their quota.

I am sure that quality work can come from China. I will not judge its workers by the lowest common denominator, nor will I assume American workers are bad, despite what I see in the DMZ, and other Civil Service Jobs.

Like everywhere else, it all depends on how much the manufacturer is willing to pay to get quality work. (In fact, if you are looking for quality work, the US becomes quite a bit more competitive).

Don't boycott Chinese goods, Boycott Manufacturers that use Chinese labor, and only then will you see the practice change.

[4_TN_TITANS]

35. This is true, the Chinese can make quality products.

I used to work for a high-end picture frame manufacturer that purchased pre-assembled frames from China. Once they got the hang of producing our products, the quality was really quite nice. But, we had a factory completely devoted to our products and quality standards over there. It's up to the American company as to how much quality they want to pay for.

[B3Nut]

37. Ibanez has a plant in China

that makes the lower-end Artcore semi-hollowbody guitars. The quality, especially for the cost of the instruments, is terrific. My next 6-stringer will probably be one, as I cannot afford an American model like a Gibson ES-335 (I surely would buy one if I could afford it.) $3000 vs. $300...not chump change.

There are small audio companies in China (like Cayin) that make exquisitely-made tube amplifiers, and Beijing 797 Audio has been making excellent, affordable condenser mics for a long time now.

Most mass-market stuff from there is indeed crap, though. "You get what you pay for" goes for the OEM customer as much as the end user.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Romulox]

113. No offense, but as someone who owns 20 + guitars, Ibanez guitars MIC are only "good for the money"

Crap wood. Crap finish. Crap pots. Crap tuners. CRAP PICKUPS. Not good.

Epiphone recently moved most production from Korea to China. Korean made Epiphones sell for a hefty premium.

"My next 6-stringer will probably be one, as I cannot afford an American model like a Gibson ES-335 (I surely would buy one if I could afford it.) $3000 vs. $300...not chump change."

There are tons of choices between a $250 Ibanez and a $3500 Gibby. If you want the cheap-o, go for it, but please don't delude yourself into thinking the Artcore is the equivalent of a 335! :hi:

[B3Nut]

114. Nowhere close to equivalent of a 335

but the ones I've played felt really good. I didn't think the pups sounded all that bad, myself. I've certainly played worse. Changing pups on a semihollow is a PITA, but still doable if the upgrade itch strikes. The key with cheap gits is playing a bunch to find the one with a good-sounding body and a good neck...they're fun platforms for customizing since you're not bastardizing a valuable instrument.

I usually just use guitars for home recording/couch jamming anyway, I'm mainly an organ player performance-wise.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[EnviroBat]

117. Epiphone Sheraton.

Korean made... Love that guitar. I've had all of the electronics upgraded in it, and it sounds gorgeous.

[B3Nut]

124. A friend of mine has one of those...

a black one. It's a sweet gitfiddle!

TP

[Romulox]

125. I put DeArmond Goldtones and full sized pots in my Epi Sheraton II.

Sounds fantastic. :thu:

[Romulox]

126. It's not as hard as they say to change the pups. I've done it several times.

Ceramic magnet pups are just something I cannot do.

[Kablooie]

36. Yes. American companies that require quality get it. Apple, for one, uses China.

[Mind_your_head]

2. Made in Japan used to be the "bad thing" in 1970 or so.......

Hint to *cluelesss* americans.......(Japan and China are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY different)

[Art_from_Ark]

17. I remember those days

Around 1966 or so, my brother took me to the local five-and-dime to treat me to a bunch of cheap trinkets for my birthday. They were all "Made in Japan", and they were all junk. Things have changed a lot since those days.

[pampango]

27. Japan and China are way different now, but will China follow Japan's path from "cheap"

products to high quality ones? Many of us who grew up with "Made in Japan" meaning "cheap" could not have foreseen how that would change in a couple of decades.

[wolfgangmo]

96. And many of us did.

[pampango]

105. Congratulations on seeing Japan's economic future back in the sixties. What is China's

economic future - perpetual producer of "cheap" junk or a prosperous Asian economy producing high-quality products like Japan is today?

[deaniac21]

50. The 1970 Datsun 240Z was and is a beautiful thing. Shame on you.

[wolfgangmo]

97. Yes!

The original pocket rocket. Loved that car. And the 280Z.

[HillWilliam]

122. Oooohhhhh, myyy

My partner and I had a Datsun 280ZX Turbo 2+2, 5-speed we got second-hand in mint condition with 120K on it. It was the last year they said "Datsun" on them, even in the interior. Loved that Penin Ferina shape (sigh).

We drove her, petted her, and adored her until she had over 320K on it. She was a thing of beauty, sleek, fun to drive, faster than shit, and we loved her so. The computer got drowned when the floorboards rotted out (a hazard of living a mile from the beach and all that salt -- Datsun's underbodies never did hack salt very well no matter how well you maintained them). The computer voice sounded like Majel Barrett, so we called her "Maggie". The day she died, she loyally got me to the parking spot at the dealer to get my next vehicle and would start no more.

I admit to crying shamelessly in the parking space before I collected myself to go in and do the deal, and my partner did when I got home with the new truck. She was our baby.

Some cars are just that special.

[madmom]

3. My son bought a TV stand that had to be assembled, one of the sides was finished

on the wrong side. It was made in America, as a matter of fact it was made in the town about 75 miles from where he lives.So it's not just everybody else who makes mistakes like bush says, we all make mistakes.

[Deja Q]

66. Also true.

:(

and I also bought a tv stand from walmart. Sauder brand. HEAVY bugger too. looked like Cherry wood. Felt like it had substance. The top bowed after a year. It was made in the USA.

[madmom]

85. His also was Sauder brand, they make them not far from where he lives.

[valerief]

4. What are the odds? 100% nowadays. nt

[murray hill farm]

5. In the last year, it has become much worse.

Clothing and the material it is made of from walmart, Kmart...all of the standard stores..even jcpenny, etc. is just an unbelievable cheap film that looks old and stretched even new on the racks. To even get a decent cotton t shirt, u have to go to salvation army or such to find anything that is decently made..it is sad to see people buying clothes at walmart..they must not notice how flimsy the items are..or think it is the new way or something. I bought a little put it together yourself table...and it was like it was made of cardboard...just a worthless thing. A year or maybe two ago is when I really began to notice that it was really getting bad. It is not just the workmanship or missing parts, it is just junk. Furniture too..sofas and the material used is just junk...called microfiber to make it sound like it is new and better, but it is junk that wears much more quickly. I am reverting to second hand stores for clothing and for furniture.

[corpseratemedia]

8. ive noticed that with cotton and cotton blends the last couple years also n/m

[NMDemDist2]

14. good American made furniture here

I never thought I could buy upholstered furniture off the web, but I got a chair and it's great!! the original fabric still looks great 3 years later, but it doesn't match the new decor so I ordered a bunch of swatches last week. I'll get new covers for the thing and it will be brand new again

:bounce:

www.homereserve.com

[arikara]

21. Clothes are flimsy and see-thru like gauze now.

I won't buy them. As you say, you need to go to the thrift store to find something decent anymore. I'm really taking care of my old tee shirts now because I expect that they'll have to last a very long time.

[HughBeaumont]

32. Same with pants.

I had to throw out a two-year-old pair of dockers because the knee was frayed. See, if these pants were made from higher quality fibers, such as industrial hemp, this wouldn't have happened.

[closeupready]

38. Exactly my experience. Clothing lasts about two months now. Buttons fall off, zippers break,

seams fray, holes develop inexplicably - just CHEAP FREAKING JUNK. :mad: :puke:

[knitter4democracy]

93. Buttons! Ack! I'm so tired of sewing them back on properly!

Seams fraying, yup. My DD's jeans wearing through in less than three months of wear. Broken zippers. All of it, and if I didn't have to buy clothes for growing children, I'd go on a boycott.

[wolfgangmo]

98. Try lands end.

[Deja Q]

69. That might be due to stretching profit margins and nothing more.

Underwear is particularly thin, and won't last 3 months of use (think once per week use. 12 wearings later, there are holes. It's a joke. For that price, with their NAME BRAND and "Renowned NAME BRAND Quality!(tm)".)

[LibertyLover]

61. It's interesting that you should mention the fabric

In July, 1979 my mom, who loved to travel, got us on one of the first US tourist trips to China. The country had just opened to tourism from America and there were still loads of rules - for example you had to be part of a group from an educational organization. Several colleges and universities jumped in and organized trips. We went with a group from, if I remember correctly, the University of Arizona. It was interesting seeing China then and the difference to me was startling when, 5 years ago, my husband and I went there to bring our 16 month old daughter home. Anyway our university group got taken to a number of interesting places, like the pig farm commune hospital (after I saw that, I did a Note to Self: Do Not Get Sick in China). It was just after the Gang of 4's arrests and while we begged to go to temples, museums and places of cultural interest, we got taken to factories and communes. One of the factories we got taken to was a large and fairly up-to-date textile factory. As part of the tour you always got sat down in the visitors' room, served tea and talked at by the visitors' director. One of the things the textile director said stuck with me all these years. He was particularly incensed by a recent US Department of Commerce decision to limit the amount of textiles imported from China. I mean he was shouting mad and kept referring back to it during the entire visit. None of us knew about the particular decision he kept talking about, but by the time we left his factory, we certainly agreed with it. The fabric being produced was awful - the quality was shoddy, the weight too heavy, the colors and designs all wrong for the American market. It was nothing that I would have wanted to spend money on. But one thing the director kept saying was 'you just wait, we will only trade with you when you allow our fabrics to be imported freely into the US and we will only export what we don't want'. That certainly seems to be true if the quality of clothes I've seen recently is any indication.

[Arugula Latte]

6. We had all sorts of defective presents this year.

My son got a helicopter that "flew" like a grasshopper missing a wing. My daughter got a rock drill that, after about 30 minutes of drilling, managed to make a dent in a rock that was, Oh, about .001 of a millimeter deep. My son got an iPod dock that was missing the remote and some adapters. And on and on ...

[JustID]

7. From a VERY amateur woodworker...

RTA furniture of all types is crap, and the problem is US as consumers. When people bought furniture build by actual cabinetmakers, they had expectations that the piece would last for their lifetimes, or more. True, they may have had to wait to have a house full of furniture till they could afford it.

The things I make, while as I said amateur, will last TOO LONG.

Also. REAL furniture made from REAL wood is much more echo-friendly. Trees are renewable. The three or four plastic crap bit from china, or one thing to last a lifetime.

T

[mtnester]

26. Let me make you jealous

My father and his grandfather when clearing a field for pasture back in the early 50's cut down walnut to do it (then replanted in another lcoation...that new grove of walnut trees is very healthy and gorgeous) The cut walnut amounted to 3000 board feet of hardwood walnut that has been aging in the barn ever since.

My dad finally said I could have it last year. It may take me another year to determine what I want to do with it. Some I want in our house, some I want as furniture.

Sigh. I first have to find a craftsman/person I can trust to work it. Too precious to give to just anyone.

[SmileyRose]

49. I hate you.

I am just pee green with envy.

My father was an amateur furniture craftsman but you'd never guess "amateur" if you saw his work. He could look at a tree and know what it wanted to be before it was even cut down. He'd grab any solid wood broken anything off someone's trash pile and turn into family heirlooms. My God he was gifted.

He had a whole tree full of pecan in the garage for much of my childhood while the car sat out in the snow and rain - yep that lumber was more valuable to him than the car. Over time he swapped much of it for other wood, used it for inlay etc. I think he even bartered for his fancy pantsy 2nd hand table saw with some of it.

Oh what I wouldn't give now to see the look on Dad's face with your wonderful stash of seasoned walnut. (he passed away last year) Thanks Dad for teaching me about patience and quality. :)

[mtnester]

115. Your father sounds amazing

My mom passed away almost 5 years ago and I miss her a lot too.

I would have loved to given him some to look at to tell us what we needed!:hug:

[StreetKnowledge]

87. Ah Geez.

:wow:

I have to despise you now.

I am just ready to faint. I want a bunch of that.

I don't want to buy another *bleep* bed set from my local store. I can't find anything that isn't garbage now.

[wolfgangmo]

99. Find a local craftsman

They are out there. They exist. You just have to find them.

And then you have to pay them for their time and skill.

But you will get a piece of furniture that will outlast your grandchildren.

It's called an investment folks.

[mtnester]

121. I believe we are going to search for a master craftman in Holmes County

We only live about an hour south of there....the issue is, as with all human beings, there are degrees of craft, even among the Amish...and it is tough to get an inroad with the best of the best, so we have to move strictly according to their protocol and pace, but weed out the lesser craftsman while doing it. It could take a year or more to accomplish this...heck to even get a MEETING might take that long, then they have to decide if they will even do it, I will have to have the hubs there to speak for me, etc. etc. SLOW process but worth it.

Despise away but we will make something beautiful from it. We are hoping to have a stamp created for the back of the furniture that indicates where the wood was cut, who cut it and who built the furniture. A friend of my father when he was cutting walnut was cutting cherry down the road with HIS father and has created a stamp for his woodwork that says:

"Created from cherry cut by xxxx and his father, xxx on the original family farm in xxxx Ohio, 1950"..(paraphrased)

I love old wood...I really do, the beauty of it, the smell of it, the feel of it...and you cannot reproduce th elook of it...it just is not quite the same. (almost, but not quite)

I agree with you, everything I buy anymore is garbage that is made to be disposable, not last for generations like good furniture should.

[.... callchet ....]

9. That was a toy.

I had to lift a 5000 lb engine off a trailer. The truck was waiting on me so I went to Harbor Freight which was closer than my shop and bought a three ton chain-fall. We lifted the motor and the truck pulled out. We were setting the motor on the ground and the chain broke when it was about a foot off the ground. The chain-fall was made in China. The motor was a thousand pounds less than the rating of the chain-fall. I have used chain-falls made in the USA all my life and have never had one break.

[JustID]

10. You had expectations for a tool from Harbor Freight?

Really. Let me get this straight. You have a shop of some sort. Know what this type of tool costs normally. Went to Harbor Freight, and bought something that 1/10 of the tool you probably have back at your shop, and expected it to work?

Sorry. Not trying to be flippant. I have bought plenty of tools from HF, but I expect them to work ONCE if I'm lucky. Its just that the prices are SO DAM LOW, you feel like a idiot paying for the right tool. That is till the cheap one breaks, and your motor has made a dent in the concrete.

T

[.... callchet ....]

20. That's right

Just needed it to work one time to get the motor off the truck. The truck was waiting and it was a two hour trip to get the chain

fall from the shop. You heard the old adage. Don't have time to do it right, but always have time to do it again. Normally buy

all my tools from local mill supply. The point about the cost was one I try to make about our tariff laws. That piece of junk should

have been taxed so that it cost the same as the USA chain fall. They try and protect or borders from drugs, they should protect

them from junk also.

[Marr]

11. I was recently involved in facilitating a deal between a big Chinese manufacturer and

an American marketing group. I've worked with Japanese teams, Brazilian teams, different European teams, etc., but no one is like the Chinese. It's like they have almost no idea what they're doing, and no scruples whatsoever. And it's not a smart kind of cut-throat. It's a stupid cut-throat. They continually screw themselves over by poisoning valuable relationships to save peanuts. For instance, they'll come in and change the materials being used in manufacturing to something cheaper after the client has left, as if the client isn't going to find out eventually, and move their business elsewhere. Absolute nightmare to try to do business with.

[HughBeaumont]

24. Nightmare businesspeople too . . .

Their workers live and work in conditions that would make the Gilded Age seem like a luxury. Many tell of ridiculously long hours, toxic environments that are almost assuredly doing damage to their bodies, extremely lax safety regulations and physical abuse by managers.

But hey, WE the consumer are making out like bandits with those cheap prices, right? Never mind the products are junk, the workers making them are indentured servants and most of our blue-collar fellows have no jobs to afford any of it.

Isn't "free trade" BITCHIN'? And the out-going simian-not-in-charge said yesterday that he was disappointed that more free trade agreements didn't get passed through congress and that it would be bad if the US became "protectionist".

You know, because there are NO happy mediums between the absolutes of "Free Trade" and "Protectionism" that the US could possibly attempt. None at all. So let's go with the Republican Friedmanist plan, because let me tell you, it's worked WONDERS thus far. :eyes:

[Marr]

42. I'm not sure if you're blaming me for something or not.

I can only tell you this wasn't about outsourcing US production to China. This was a 100% Chinese company marketing themselves outside of China. I don't work with people who push outsourcing-- just turned one away last month, in fact.

On edit, I see where you got that impression. The manufacturing with the cheaper materials. That came to me second hand from one of their people, and it was all Chinese-- no foreign company involved. It was something that had very recently gone bad with a Chinese subcontractor. You'll have Chinese manufacturers outsourcing production to other Chinese manufacturers, and everybody's chewing off a little piece.

[HughBeaumont]

81. No, just being sarcastic.

:fistbump:

[StreetKnowledge]

88. Can't agree more. Really can't.

I'd put up some trade barriers, in order to subsidize some industries, but still let others in. The good Chinese products, and they do exist, should in our markets. But some of the stuff we've seen just is incredibly bad.

[Skittles]

30. LOL

you don't find the same with Brazil?

[Marr]

40. No, not at all.

The Brazilians I've dealt with were just like Americans when it came to business. There are little cultural differences, sure-- but they understood how the game is played. You know-- they understand that there's a point at which saving a penny costs several hundred dollars, because of bad PR and poisoned relationships. The Chinese don't get that.

[Skittles]

64. the Brazilians I deal with in IT suck big time

their lack of a sense of urgency just boggles my mind

[Deja Q]

71. I wonder what they think of the US mentality to have everything done yesterday because

"time is money"

There are times to be urgent, and I don't know about their technical skills (the support staff from India I've dealt with are not very technical at all), but they do have a point about the gross hyperactivity encompassed in American business. Americans have forgotten what it's like to be human too. It's all about money; everything else... and everyone else... is expendable.

[Skittles]

73. all I know is they're working for an AMERICAN COMPANY

so when the fine is 1000 bucks every minute an online is down, it's not good to say "I'M TAKING MY LUNCH BREAK"

[Marr]

90. Hahaha! Oh, ok.

That sounds about like my experience. One of the teams I worked with just couldn't keep their shoes on, and had to take 2 hour lunches every day. They got the job done and did a great job, though. It just... took a little extra time.

[Skittles]

95. they not only take 2 hour lunches

they're not available during turnovers, which seem to take an hour. And when their time is up they are out the door no matter WHAT is going on - OMG they suck. Customers who call me BEG me not to be transferred to Brazil.

[wolfgangmo]

101. Boggle is a 2 way street.

I used to think the same way you did until I lived down there.

It freed my soul. Now, I can always get to it Manana. Learn to relax before you body makes you relax.

[Skittles]

123. did you read what I said?

it's heard to relax when the fine is 1000 bucks a minute

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

44. Your basing your entire opinion of a country on ONE company?

There certainly are Chinese CMs that operate like that. They're usually pretty cheap. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE CHEAP. There are plenty of Chinese CMs who practice reliable control of subcontractors, don't substitute bogus materials, etc. Unsurprisingly, they're not as cheap as the ripoff places. Same the world over, you get what you pay for.

[Marr]

46. The only motivation for a Chinese company to use quality materials

and produce quality work is to defend their reputation. Other places have those standards in place as regulation, and violating those standards will result in real legal consequences.

Correct me if I'm wrong here-- I'm no expert on Chinese manufacturing regulations-- but I assume no one is because there don't seem to be any Chinese manufacturing regulations.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. There are plenty of regulations.

Enforcement is a much bigger problem than lack of pertinent regulations. Part of the problem with enforcement is government corruption at the local level, part of it is the vast and rapidly-changing nature of Chinese industry. Most of the problems are entirely avoidable if the US company that's contracting out its manufacturing exercises proper quality control and doesn't select shoddy manufacturers.

Other places have those standards in place as regulation, and violating those standards will result in real legal consequences.

Yes, that's why you never, ever see things like instances of mad cow, e coli outbreaks, or environmental infractions from companies producing products in the US. The Chinese are worse, but then only by a matter of degree, and they're getting better very quickly.

[SmileyRose]

52. Our company works with 36 different Chinese factories and 187 from other countries

our product line is extremely high end. We've had the occasional problem with all our factories but there is only 1 Chinese factory that consistently has to be watched. We fired them and moved that product to Thailand. We work with a broker but the owners travel to every factory we work with twice a year.

America gets a lot of cheap chinese crap because we buy a lot of cheap chinese crap. Americans generally choose to have a trunk full of presents to give out at holidays instead of one or two high quality and carefully selected things. We'll buy seven $5 walmart shirts that will need replaced in a couple of years tops rather than one well made $30 shirt that we can wear for decades.

If we want cheap chinese labor I'd hope we could at least use it to make quality products more affordable - but we've generally chosen not to do that.

[wolfgangmo]

100. We had the same problem ...

... we had contracted for some custom cable control runs and the price and demos were good, but then we started getting serious blowback in the field after we placed our 2nd order.

We finally settled on a local company and haven't had a problem since.

[Mnemosyne]

12. Chinese screws strip fast! Cheap.Chinese.Crap.Exactly. knr n/t

[HughBeaumont]

25. I noticed that also. It's especially reassuring with things like lug nuts.

Things that only hold my CAR in place. Nothing important or anything . . .

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. Not as fast as some of their screwdrivers!

A looong time ago I bought a cheap set of screwdrivers that were Made in China. The shaft of the screwdriver turned inside the handles on ALL of them.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

109. The operative word there being "cheap."

If you buy a cheap product expecting it to do the job of an expensive one, you will be disappointed, regardless of the product's origin.

[awoke_in_2003]

74. They cannot make

metal products. Period. Hell, can't even go to individually owned Ace Hardware without find cheap chinese hardware. And don't get me started on plumbing products.

[southerncrone]

13. All that Made in China stuff is garbage & a rip-off. Never have all the pieces.

I am so angry that we can't purchase much of anything made ANYWHERE but China these days. We have given our livelihood over to the Imperial Chinese & the wealthy corporate hacks who have moved all our jobs over there.

IF WE COULD GET A LOAN HERE IN THE US NOW, it would be the perfect time to start small mfg. businesses that MADE STUFF here, again. Stuff we NEED, not cheap crap like is imported from China that won't stand up to the least amount of stress.

We are funding their military war machine by buying all this Wal-Mart(& others') crap. They are the hole where most of our money goes & then will use it to build up their military & attack us.

Don't you just love neocons? :sarcasm:

[SOS]

78. Re giving over our economy to China

It has also premanently damaged our ability to recover from the current typhoon ripping through our economy.
Check out this letter in todays NYT:

To the Editor:

Your concern with tax cuts in the stimulus package is a distraction. Far more troublesome is the conventional assumption that the recession is a more or less classic business cycle that an infusion of cash through infrastructure projects and tax cuts will turn around. It isn’t, and it won’t be.

The current recession is not cyclical; it is structural, and it is unprecedented. During the 1930s, thousands of factories closed. But their buildings and equipment remained in place and intact, and they could be reactivated to meet World War II mobilization needs. That model no longer exists.

Most of the thousands of manufacturing facilities that closed since World War II closed for good. Their equipment was crated and shipped overseas; their buildings are boarded up, their workers laid off. These factories didn’t close because of a cyclical shortfall in demand but because they lost their markets to imports.

No fiscal stimulus can possibly match the benefits of using low-wage overseas labor for such production. Thus, the hollowed-out manufacturing sector will not be able to create the advertised millions of new jobs. I believe that this structural issue looms larger than who gets what tax cuts.

S. Stanley Katz
Sarasota, Fla., Jan. 11, 2009

The writer was deputy assistant secretary of commerce, 1976-78, and is a former vice president of the Asian Development Bank.

[southerncrone]

94. I believe Mr. Katz is exactly correct. We must think of ourselves again.

The Chinese already own much of our debt & it will just keep getting worse if we don't stop buying this crap.

Face it, "they OWN us & we gave them our hard-earned money they've used to buy us!"

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

16. Watch out for that toxic smell. I took three things back to Costco a couple of years ago...

... for gassing me so bad my eyes watered and my throat burned. Three Separate Items. I don't know what the hell the Chinese are impregnating the wood with over there, but I wouldn't want my kid breathing it.

Hekate

[Historic NY]

18. I was at the uniform store & found they sewed the zippers on some

jackets backwards. They have a letter panel for safety but the Chinese sewed it so the writing was upside down facing inward. Quality is suffering as they pump out quanities of cheap crap.

[Liberal_in_LA]

19. Chinese exports are facing record decline. Less plastic crap for America!

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. Good! On both counts!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. Butbutbut, I thought having a manufacturing based economy was a cure for all our ills!

Seems not.

[awoke_in_2003]

75. I wonder how much of that is due...

to our failing economy?

[wolfgangmo]

102. Which means that...

... the Chinese government might just decide to flood our T-Bill market with the 500 billion + that they have on hand which means that ...

... our currency will tank. Which means that you might have to get used to buying bread using a wheelbarrow to bring the cash to the store.

[anigbrowl]

22. A chinese factory worker comments

Chinese Factory Worker Can't Believe The Shit He Makes For Americans
FENGHUA, CHINA—Chen Hsien, an employee of Fenghua Ningbo Plastic Works Ltd., a plastics factory that manufactures lightweight household items for Western markets, expressed his disbelief Monday over the "sheer amount of shit Americans will buy."

"Often, when we're assigned a new order for, say, 'salad shooters,' I will say to myself, 'There's no way that anyone will ever buy these,'" Chen said during his lunch break in an open-air courtyard. "One month later, we will receive an order for the same product, but three times the quantity. How can anyone have a need for such useless shit?"

Chen, 23, who has worked as an injection-mold operator at the factory since it opened in 1996, said he frequently asks himself these questions during his workweek, which exceeds 60 hours and earns him the equivalent of $21.

"I hear that Americans can buy anything they want, and I believe it, judging from the things I've made for them," Chen said. "And I also hear that, when they no longer want an item, they simply throw it away. So wasteful and contemptible."

Among the items that Chen has helped create are plastic-bag dispensers, microwave omelet cookers, glow-in-the-dark page magnifiers, Christmas-themed file baskets, animal-shaped contact-lens cases, and adhesive-backed wall hooks.

This is from the Onion, but (as usual) it contains a germ of truth.

To be honest, what's happening now is pretty much a repeat of what the US assembly line did to European industry (and industrial workers). Craftsmanship and quality became devalued because American goods could be made cheerful and much more cheaply, since American manufacturers sought profits in volume rather than in unit margin. Of course, quality improved in a good many things and so in turn there's been more competition at the bottom - just as was the case with goods from Japan and Taiwan.

China makes both cheap crap and good quality stuff. It's just that there is an amazing amount of demand for cheap crap.

[pampango]

28. Great point. "China makes both cheap crap and good quality stuff." At first I wondered

why we just buy their "cheap crap". Does that say more about them or about us? We buy the cheap stuff and then complain that it is "cheap".

Then I thought that it's probably better this way. If we bought their "good quality" stuff as well, it would cause more pain to our economy.

[Deja Q]

68. I am compelled to agree.

There's a lot of garbage at Tar-Mart that's beyond outrageous. Now there are keychains with little LCD screens on them so you can keep pictures of loved ones, favorite car, home, favorite hooker, anyone or anything else.

Why?

It's a waste of batteries, and the unit only lasts 2 hours on 4 of the batteries anyway. And it's $30.

Pointless garbage. Half which isn't always manufactured wrong -- it's designed wrong. Like the magic egg kaboodley that peels eggs perfectly in the microwave or whatever. Consumer Reports, Goo Housekeeping, and so on, always review these new funky fresh items... and give bad ratings because they can't do as what was promised.

Still, doesn't mean there's cheap garbage out there. I bought a tableware set as knives and forks and spoons are nice to have and use... stainless steel. Made in China. The black handlebars are now beige. :wtf: And these weren't cheap either.

I suspect the old adage makes sense, "the truth is in the middle".

Besides, "You get what you pay for" -- buy a Microsoft piece of software lately? The price suggests Heaven and one gets New Jersey in return.

[formercia]

23. LL Bean

It used to be, like Wally World, that most of their products were made in USA.
I went into their outlet store looking for some polypropylene thermal underwear. I looked around and all I could find were Merino Wool ones that said Made in China in big letters on the front of the package.
I asked the staff if they carried polypropylene thermals and they replied that the Chinese Wool ones were the only ones. I told them I wouldn't buy the Chinese crap and walked out.

[Javaman]

45. oh great. I just ordered an 8 foot log storage unit from them. sigh. nt

[SOS]

79. Ecco shoes used to be all made in Europe

I trusted that and ordered a replacement pair online, direct from Ecco.
When they arrived, they looked strange, even though they were the same style/model as the older pair.
And there it was....sewn to the inside of the shoe....Made in China.
The price was the same, but the cut and leather was all wrong.
Big, goofy toes and cheap-looking shiny leather.

I returned them for full credit with an explanation why.

[Romulox]

112. Wow. I love Eccos, but I'm not paying > $200 for a pair if they're MIC. nt

[SOS]

116. Some are still OK

As long as you buy them in person at a shoe store, you can check out where they are made.
After returning the "Sea Walkers" (made in China) I went to a shoe store and got a pair of "Bicycle Traverse" which have been excellent.
The Traverse was made in Europe.
Fully agree with you. I'm not paying the same price ($160) for a shoe that is now made in China.

[Romulox]

127. Sea Walkers are the ones I like! Along with Track II. nt

[NewJeffCT]

29. These items are all being imported by American companies

so, shouldn't we first question why these American companies aren't checking what they import?

And, China doesn't think they have a problem with quality - after all the problems with toys a few years back, Mattel's CEO later went to China and apologized to the Chinese people because the issues were design flaws on the American end. That was big news in China, but hardly made a noise here.

[Boxerfan]

33. STINKY leather SHOELACES from HELL(Made in India??)

I thought I'd share...
3 days ago we got some shoes from Wall Mart. I have trouble finding a good fit & frankly wally world is the only store that carries a wide size selection.
I also bought some leather shoelaces to feshen up an old pair of shoes. Upon taking out the laces I could not believe the gassing/odor.

It was a rotten egg/putrid smell. It was so bad I washed the laces in dishwashing liquid-heavilly perfumed. Set them out to dry on the back porch.

I woke up the next morning & I walked out the front door....I couldn't believe it. The entire area smelled from those laces...

I found a plastic container with a screw on lid. Placed the laces in there & off to the garbage. Not worth taking back but I shoulda just to make a point.

What I found ironic-They came from India....Aren't cows sacred in India?

[JCMach1]

34. LOL... obviously your first experience with donkey leather! i.e. it stinks!

Donkey is the cheap option to cow leather... Say a big thank you to Walmart!

There are also some very good 'beef' Indian dishes. Also, Indian beef is a fixture in the supermarkets over here. While it doesn't approach American beef, it tastes a damn site better than the expensive crap from Australia and New Zealand.

[marions ghost]

54. Stinky Pig from China Story

My sister gave me a funky pink plastic pig light from China as a gift. It was made with little cell-like bubbles. Before opening it I was gagging at the smell--toxic waste dump mixed with bad potpourri is how I'd describe it, even before you turned on the light which made the vapors intensify. Well OK I put the pig out on the porch to detox. I thought maybe one day it would stop out-gassing. One year later it was still just as strong as ever. I gave up on the pig. After awhile I threw it out but felt guilty that it had to go in a landfill. It probably should have gone into a drum in the salt mines (preferably in China)...(this is just one of my stories on this subject)

Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:

The US Companies are complicit in cost-cutting measures AND as the writer above states, the Chinese companies will cheat even with oversight. Both manufacturers and US suppliers are at fault in this. And the consumer is the stooge.

Americans and likely some in other countries buying these cheap products --need to wake up. This is not good business.

[JVS]

108. "What I found ironic-They came from India....Aren't cows sacred in India?"

That is exactly why I would not be surprised at all to learn of India making bad leather products. I wouldn't buy wine from Utah or Iran either.

[SmileyRose]

39. My dad used to cuss all Christmas day for the same reason - in the 1950's/60's

most of that stuff was American made but needed assembly. It never failed something was missing or the threads/tabs/slots/rabbits etc did not line up and he'd have to rework it. Dad is born "fixit guy", thank goodness. He did tell me recently that it's gotten much much worse. At least back then the quality of the materials was high enough that you COULD rework it. Now it such cheap crap all you can really do most of the time to go buy a 2nd one, take the good parts between the 2 sets and then return the one with all the bad and missing parts as one set.

[wolfgangmo]

103. Your dad is a genius.

Buy another one for spare parts and then return the bad parts.

Genius. I wonder why I never thought of this.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. Gee, imagine that. Cheap stuff is crap.

What does this have to do with it being made in China?

[Deja Q]

72. You get what you pay for. Hey, did you buy Windows Vista Ultimate Edition?

That was a wonderful $400 at the time, wasn't it? :evilgrin:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

84. Don't even get me started on Microsoft.

I will give up XP when they prise it from my cold, dead hands. Alternatively, I'll switch to Ubuntu.

[deaniac21]

51. They make killer cities!

[marions ghost]

63. very sculptural

yeah I'm drawn to these buildings too but somehow they're very retro, with all that "futuristic"
Jetsons flavor...so they seem like buildings of the past, not the future so much. But they impress people in the here and now and that's the point. Couldn't stand too much sea level rise due to global warming though--

thanks for the picture

[DS1]

118. Flash Gordon crap!

[deaniac21]

120. Visit Shanghai and you will come away VERY impressed.

[knitter4democracy]

53. Don't get me started on their cashmere.

They shear their goats twice a year, making a short-stapled fiber ever shorter, and they don't dehair it properly, and it's full-on crap. I refuse to buy any anymore unless it's older stuff from a resale shop (and I know the difference between good and bad cashmere). There's been a huge hullabaloo in the knitting community about yarn companies selling yarn that's labelled to have cashmere in it (8-12%, depending on the yarn) that don't actually have any, and the base fibers are from China.

Don't get me wrong, China makes some decent yarns (they're getting more and more of the yarn market these days), but honestly, I only can think of a few that I still buy at all. The rest isn't worth my money or knitting time.

And I'm starting to spin more and more of my own, too. I almost exclusively spin fibers from Michigan where I know the farmer and process it myself, and it's so much nicer to work with.

[Nikki Stone1]

58. You spin your own yarn. That's just amazing.

And such a useful skill. When the economy caves for good, can I come and live with you? :D

[knitter4democracy]

62. Sure! We'll need an extra pair of hands so I can spend more time spinning.

:D

Lots of us spin. Ravelry, a Facebook-like site for knitters/crocheters/spinners, has over 257,000 members from all over the world, and the spinning forums are quite busy. It's a tad addictive.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

77. Very cool.

I knew a guy in San Antonio once who spun flax.

I found out what "The girl with the flaxen hair" meant. Pale yellow.

Flax is spun into linen.

:hi:

I'm allergic to wool and all other animal hair, though.

[knitter4democracy]

91. There's a great knitting book you'd like then, No Sheep for You.

I know the author, so I'm not exactly unbiased, but it's an amazing resource on how to work with everything other than animal fibers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

89. I bought a cashmere sweater from Mongolia recently.

It seems to be of excellent quality. I abuse clothes, and it's still free of holes. Quite soft, too.

[knitter4democracy]

92. Mongolia's having trouble keeping up with China.

Many farmers there are fighting against shearing twice a year, but the Chinese are undercutting them on price. If you can find real Mongolian cashmere (hard to do, actually), then by all means get it. The quality is much higher and gets better with time. My kids use my cashmere finds as their security blankies, so I wash them over and over and over. The good stuff just gets softer and softer. The nasty stuff pills and shreds (I have one that was a mistake to get, and I still can't believe I didn't see its bad quality that day).

[seabeyond]

56. Cheap. Chinese. CRAP..... YUP. n/t

[Dukkha]

57. Wal Mart sells cheap crap? No way!

What next? They treat their employees like shit?

[baldguy]

59. A lot of people assembling children's toys in China are children themselves.

Exposed to chemicals, hazardous working conditions and slave wages.

[Deja Q]

67. We look down on all that to be sure. What do they think of that?

Their context? Do they care?

1.3 billion people in their country alone, would they even begin to care? About their own? Or anyone else on this sad planet for that matter?

[HughBeaumont]

80. Toil and hardship is pretty much all they know for most of their lives.

All to satisfy the runaway consumerist needs of us Dumbericans.

[Threedifferentones]

60. Well lets see

An American company goes to China, "outsources" their production to a Chinese company, and demands cheap results. The Americans don't really look in to HOW the Chinese company produces for so little, they just insist that it does. Then, when the product is shit, they say "well we had no idea, the Chinese production company told us we'd get quality."

Is this really the fault of the Chinese company? Pixar and Disney are American companies, and they chose to do things cheaply. Chinese people can certainly produce quality goods, but Americans don't ask them to. Americans ask them to supply the likes of Wal-Mart.

[Deja Q]

70. Yes and NO

NO: Because I've seen IDENTICAL products at Target and K-Mart, with different house-brand names, and at varying prices. Just how many factories need to make the same spice rack or LCD screen? (very few. very, very few.)

Granted, when all is said and done, it's far deeper than finger pointing.

Then again, the end cost of the product vs cost of manufacture -- how many people really scream "CHEAP" when they really say "SOMETHING THAT HOLDS UP"?

I've had a $20 rolling pin fall apart too. So "you get what you pay for" is an aphorism that went out with the bellbottoms.

[Deja Q]

65. What else is new; that happens with almost everything coming from that country.

People say China will be the next superpower.

This isn't exactly a good way to make a solid superpower.

The US did not build itself up to superpower status by being cheap and sleazy.

Of course, some within became cheap and sleazy, but at least they're just as stuck too. :shrug:

BTW: Quality control, like customer support, is loathed by upper ranks. Too "costly". Pity they don't realize a simple fundamental: No quality = nobody wanting to purchase. In the end, they too will lose. And have only themselves to blame by being cheap and sleazy.

[arikara]

76. China Blue

A documentary worth watching on the subject of China and their slave labour sweatshops

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/chinablue/

[HughBeaumont]

83. Thx for the link. Anyone see this yet?

http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=ha%20ha%20ha%20america&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

Ha Ha Ha America.

It's a satirical look (yes, SATIRICAL. Unbelievable how many people thought this was for real) at how American CEO culture and their quarterly-profit mindset is killing all countries involved in their folly.

[formercia]

82. United States of America-China Chamber of Commerce

http://www.usccc.org/



His Excellency, Premier Zhu Rongji and Prescott Bush, Chairman (retired) of US-China Chamber of Commerce

[WHAT]

86. clothes pins, bobby pins, and lighters...

"made in china", don't buy...

defective, none of them work. I buy these items second-hand, if I can. I doubt the "made in china" items will appear in the 2nd hand stores because they will be tossed by then. Also, there are a lot of "china" metal items that have the tensile strength of licorice.

"china" might be an abbreviation for cheap hos of indonesian neocon acquisition...

(not blaming china)

[lib2DaBone]

104. How about Chinese Drywall Board that emits sulpher fumes....

..many of the homes in Florida were rebuilt with Chinese drywall after the hurricane.

The drywall sends off Sulpher fumes.

Other than making your eyes burn.. the only problem is that your house smells like rotten eggs.

NAFTA gave us the SHAFTA.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

110. What does NAFTA have to do with drywall from China? n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

106. "The Quality Goes In Before The Name Goes On"

The dream is over...

[Locrian]

107. by design

Why would we expect the design, materials, etc to be decent when the whole start of this was for cheap labor to reduce cost? I certainly think the Chinese are capable of making some fine things - but this is by design.

Use the cheapest materials, cheaply designed, with the cheapest labor. All together these create a piece of crap (dont just blame the cheap labor).


Sad thing is that you really CAN make a profit (on some things) and use decent materials, good design, and fair labor - but you cant expect the ungoddly high profit ratios that these companies want.

[Romulox]

111. To counter this "They could make good stuff if they wanted to meme": What's stopping them?

Errrr :shrug:

Mean old Americans won't allow Chinese state-owned manufacturers to make poison-free, high quality goods? Er, are you sure?

[Locrian]

119. well

Where do you get just about any computer product you buy these days? HDTV? Electronics? iPod? Cell phone? Granted these can be toys and a waste of time - but I challenge you to find a US company that could produce these items now.

BUT - Nobody says they dont make a ton of crap - but its economics (ie greed, race to the bottom).

[Romulox]

128. Right. But Lenovo, a Chinese company, makes high quality laptops

apparently without any "Gwailos" telling them what to do. So what stops all the other Chinese manufacturers from making quality goods?

[Cleita]

129. Take it back to Wal-Mart and demand a credit or exchange.

They are always selling defective crap and this is the way to make them take notice. Also, the paint giving off fumes would send a red flag up for me and I would consider it toxic for little children until tested. Since it's defective anyway, take it back.