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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:42 AM
Original message
Contraception next on list of forbidden things? Next slide down slope for women's rights?
I don't think we realize how slippery the slope is getting for women's rights. The Southern Baptists are among the organizations calling for condemnation of birth control.

Minister says birth control is murder...on video

The Southern Baptist Convention is reacting after News 8 showed a message from a Southern Baptist preacher teaching Fort Worth seminary students that the birth control pill equals murder.

In a controversial sermon to students at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. Thomas White, acting as the student services vice president this month, preached that birth control is murder and called attempts at family planning selfish.

"Some of you are involved in that exact same sin," he said.


The head of the Southern Baptist Seminary says to reject the "contraceptive mentality."

I am trying to look at this from a perspective that begins with God's creation," Mohler said. "God's purpose in creation is being trumped by modern practices."

"I would argue that it ought to be falling short of the glory of God. Deliberate childlessness defies God's will," he said.

"..."First, we must start with a rejection of the contraceptive mentality that sees pregnancy and children as impositions to be avoided rather than as gifts to be received, loved, and nurtured. This contraceptive mentality is an insidious attack upon God's glory in creation, and the Creator's gift of procreation to the married couple."


Some of the same danger signs that happened in other countries in which abortion can bring a prison term are going on now in our country. There are efforts to pass bills to criminalize the doctors.

The bill from 2003 read like this:

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003: Vote to pass a bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as "partial-birth" abortion. The procedure would be allowed only in cases in which a women's life is in danger, not for cases where a women's health is in danger. Those who performed this procedure, would face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is performed on are not held criminally liable.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Santorum, R-PA; Bill S.3 ; vote number 2003-530 on Oct 2, 2003


Voting yes on the bill were Democrats Harold Ford, Tom Carper, and in the senate were John Breaux, Harry Byrd, Kent Conrad, Tom Daschle, Byron Dorgan, Fritz Hollings, Tim Johnson, Mary Landrieu, Patrick Leahy, Blanche Lincoln, Miller (GA), Ben Nelson, Pryor AK, Harry Reid.

Not voting.
John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Biden.

Even though our new party chairman is admittedly anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, and anti-civil unions....at least he does not think doctors and women should be criminalized

Thank God for small things, right?

Kaine made his abortion remarks at a luncheon event featuring Granholm. About 300 women, and a handful of men, paid $100 each for the fundraiser, which Granholm dubbed "estrogen in the afternoon."

Kaine spoke more extensively than he has previously about abortion, which he said is a "critical issue" in the race because of the changes on the high court, which has protected abortion rights.

"Jerry Kilgore believes that you can't be anti-abortion unless you want to make abortion a crime, and I fundamentally reject that," Kaine said. "I've always opposed making it a crime -- outlawing a woman or a doctor for participating in an abortion. And you don't have to criminalize women or their doctors to be anti-abortion."


But when religious leaders in our country are already condemning birth control, and not even standing up strongly for women's rights....the next slide down the slope is easy.

Look how easy it was to get the criminalization bill through in El Salvador. The party leaders feared losing and went along with the amendment to jail women and doctors for abortions performed. From the NYT 2006 article called Pro Life Nation:

Party caved in on criminalization of women and doctors because they were fearful of losing.

Julia Regina de Cardenal runs the Yes to Life Foundation in San Salvador, which provides prenatal care and job training to poor pregnant women. She was a key advocate for the passage of the ban. She argued that the existing law's exception for the life of the mother was outdated. As she explained to me, "There does not exist any case in which the life of the mother would be in danger, because technology has advanced so far."


Scary stuff. The leadership went along so they would not lose. Freed from taking a stand.

The leadership of the FMLN, afraid that the party would be trounced in the coming elections if they were on the record as opposing the amendment, freed its deputies from their obligation to follow the party's position and urged them to vote with their consciences. When the final vote was taken, the amendment passed overwhelmingly.


And the women pay the price.


Donna Ferrato for The New York Times
The Doctor: Carmen Vargas, chief of OB/GYN residents at a maternity
hospital in San Salvador. "When we see physical evidence," she says, "we are
required to report."


Our party which is supposed to be looking out for our rights has not shown much backbone in fighting back on this issue.

Plan B, abstinence only education, our new HHS secretary who once tried to pass a rigid anti-abortion bill

What are we supposed to assume from all these things? I do not assume that women are the priority of the party. I do not get that feeling.

On Wednesday, May 16, advocates were optimistic that legislation requiring emergency contraception to be stocked on all military bases would pass in the House. “We had the votes on Wednesday night. Things were looking good,” says Monica Castellanos, press secretary for Rep. Michael Michaud (D-Maine), one of the lead co-sponsors of the amendment that was scheduled for a vote the next day. But then, something mysterious happened. For reasons that remain unclear, Michaud withdrew the legislation the next morning.


Democrats controlled congress then.

"The Democratic leadership of the House Appropriations Labor, Health and Human Service, and Education (LHHS) Sub-Committee set science and commonsense aside by increasing the funding for discredited abstinence-only-until-marriage programs. Despite a congressionally mandated report that found these programs do not work to help teens delay sexual initiation, House leadership allocated $141 million (an increase of $27.8 million) to continue feeding America's young people misinformation.

"Let's face it, with friends like these, who needs conservative Republicans?" said James Wagoner, President of Advocates for Youth. "By continuing to fund these ineffective programs, the House Democratic leadership has signaled that the health and well-being of America's teens are not their priority. Young people and their parents should be outraged.


Read about an anti-abortion bill our new HHS Secretary tried to pass about 10 years ago.

"Daschle's so-called compromise bill, as quoted in the New York Times, permits an exception to the ban for `a severely debilitating disease or impairment specifically caused by the pregnancy (emphasis added),' but makes no provision for a pre-existing, life- and health-threatening `debilitating disease or impairment' that is being exacerbated by the pregnancy. This could include kidney disease, severe hypertension and some cancers. Nor does the Daschle bill allow for an abortion in cases of severe fetal abnormality where it is unlikely the fetus would live long outside the womb, even with technological support.

"The physician certification requirement and the potential loss of a medical license in the Daschle language invites government scrutiny of private medical matters and threatens doctor-patient confidentiality. The intent of this and other abortion ban bills is to control women and to limit their ability to make critical reproductive decisions that affect their families, their health and their lives. These bills represent the ultimate in Congressional arrogance," Gandy charged.


The bill was more rigid than the Republican bill. Has he changed his anti-choice views? Some say he has, but I don't know.

Those things that happened in places like Romania ( be sure to read the linked post by Shallah), and El Salvador could possibly happen here if we are not on guard.

We don't seem to have an opposition party on the side of women and gays anymore. Disturbing.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. You've heard of Catholics before, right?
The pope, and such?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That deserves no comments.
So I will just ignore it. My post was well written and deserves better than such a comment.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Self delete.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 10:58 AM by Iggo
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. I know some catholic countries are anti abortion
countries such as Ireland and Poland are anti abortion. Thanks to an EU court ruling in 2007 women can abort in these countries if their health is in danger. In other countries such as catholic Spain, Italy, Portugal, and France abortion is legal on demand except that in Spain the woman has to say it is bad for her mental well being to keep the child.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. They're the ones where the church gets what it wants. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. Pope went before Italian government a few years sgo ...
preaching that "they had to make Italian women have more children..."

Why: So that capitalists could expand - they need labor!

BTW, the Vatican invented capitalism when Feudalism was no longer sufficient

to run their Papal States.





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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Is The Ruling Class afraid they're running out of uh...'american' babies?
What's this obsession with preventing women from controlling their childbirth decisions?

:shrug:

K&R Excellent links.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks, I think there is something to that theory.
Need more uh "american" babies. Hate to think that. Repopulate a world that is in trouble...not so very wise. Moderation is better.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. No, just consumers. nt
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. El Salvador is a hard-core Catholic country. While I'm sympathetic to your concern about the issue..
I don't think that a direct comparison between there and the USa is valid, especially as we're about to go back to having a Democratic administration for the next 4 years.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You must not have read my OP carefully.
Our Dems recruited 12 anti-choice Dems to run this year. I know two of them don't believe much in birth control.

Did you note the ones who voted to criminalize doctors??? It's in my OP.

No, it is not that far removed. If a party gives up women's rights to win....then we are going to have real problems.

Did you know we have 31 House Dems now that are anti-choice?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I did, I just don't agree with it
Or with your previous OP on the same subject. I see what you are concerned about but I'm not convinced by your argument about the imminent danger. Sorry.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. That is your right. Then those of us who care must worry.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 02:28 AM by madfloridian
You enjoy your life and hope it goes away.

OH, did you catch that those were Baptists I quoted also. Guess not.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I didn't read it carefully.
Please spare me the snark.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. Dems recruited 12 anti-choicers who don't believe in birth control.
Can't say that enough.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
43. Happening very quietly......
It's not in the interests of capitalism to have birth control/abortion ---

hurts expansion.

Daschle --- and many other Catholics in Congress are a threat in this regard.

Leahy!!!

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. I think the comparison is spot on.
The difference there is that the Church gets what it wants while here it does not (yet.) As America becomes increasingly religious, the insistence that public policy match religious dogma will become harder to resist. What they have in El Salvador is what the churches want for the whole world.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
77. Your key word, "yet". Just not "yet".
They get one goal and they reach for another. I was writing about Southern Baptists in my OP, and they are setting new goals constantly.

It is going to be a fight, you are right.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
59. "El Salvador is a hard-core Catholic country" That's a statement that
oversimplifies a complex issue. The implication is that all Catholics are in lock step with the Vatican. The most famous Salvadoran bishop, Oscar Romero, was denied an audience with John Paul II even though he was sitting in the next room. Later, John Paul declared Romero a "Servant of God", after he was safely dead at the hands of right wing assassins. What I believe is happening now in El Salvador is a "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" between the government and a right wing Catholic hierarchy. The government passes the laws the right wingers want, and the bishops ignore everything else.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93scar_Romero

http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. Too many people already.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 02:04 AM by Lasher
Even more important, IMO, than people's (women and men) rights to prevent unwanted births, this stone age mentality promotes mindless procreation. We need to stop increasing the number of humans on the planet.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. and people think Scientology has an exclusive on nuttiness?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
14. so what's next? . . . prohibiting masturbation? . . .
I wanna see the enforcement plan for THAT one . . .
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Don't laugh, it can be done
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 08:39 AM by Wednesdays
And has been in the past.


Get a load of this, LOL!
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/purity/advice.asp

(I know, it's parody...but not too far-fetched. OMFG...seven more days...just seven more days...)



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. Well . .. first comes the brainwashing . . . the mental clitorectomy . . .
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. rec
And just because the Southern Baptists - or ANY religion for that matter wants it - doesn't mean we as a country should just cave.

Nor we as a party.

This is a Health and Humanity issue. Not a religious one. I'm not a brood mare - and no woman should be required to be. If they want THEIR women to follow that - then that's aok. But it's not acceptable to me. I don't share their religious practices, I dismiss their practices, and they need to shut up, sit down, and keep it in their church. I don't force my religion on the general populace, and they should be forbidden from doing so too. They have all the freedom of speech they need on a Sunday morning, and if they want to be lobbyists - then yank their Tax Free status away from the entire Southern Baptist Convention.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. Pat Buchanan had mentioned this 20 years ago on Crossfire...
this is the ultimate aim...abortion prohibition is just the first step. Creeps...
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. Please, oh please, let this be their next big push
I'm not buying that opposition to birth control is a direction we will take as a party, though it is true we have cosied up to some "Democrats" who seem clueless on this issue.

It is true that this has always been part of the pro-life agenda. Contraception was always next on their hit list, as sure as Griswold preceded Roe. To which I say

PLEASE, OH PLEASE, MAKE THIS A BIG ISSUE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

We are certainly not going to go down this road, but they might. And if they do, it will condemn them to permanent minority status. This could be the final bit of craziness that drives the women of the SBC away from their patriarchal overlords.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. It will happen very quietly in Congress . . . public will be informed; that's all...
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. It's not gonna happen.
I'd bet money on that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. OK . .. we'll take your word for it -- guaranteed! Hope you're right!
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. Even the Repub majority
didn't make any serious efforts to ban birth control. The Dems would commit political suicide if they tried that. In any case, I would certainly not call myself a member of the party if they pulled anything like that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. You can't ban birth control before you ban abortion . . .
and they're certainly working on that ---

Repugs are dedicated to going backwards --- all the way --

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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
101. All you have to do is ban abortion, and then label some forms of birth control "abortificants".
There's been work on both parts of that.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. Will men realize they have a stake in all this too?
The lack of birth control will affect them too when they have a wife or girlfriend who is either constantly pregnant or unwilling to have sex for fear of pregnancy. And many other issues are involved too including a woman's ability to work, the effect on the environment, etc...

Unbelievable how short-sighted these anti-birth control people are.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
104. You make a good point.
A Lysistrata situation might make some of these right wing "pundit" fucktards wake up and take notice when their numbers are not being replenished as quickly as they thought.

Women could masturbate as much as we want and not give guys any penetration to hasten the population increase. Refuse them sex on principal or insist they have vasectomies. You KNOW they'll never agree to that. Now what, assholes?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. Not everyone who takes BC does it to prevent pregnancies
Many women(mostly young women) take the Pill to control their cyles. Some women who are undergoing chemo also use birth control because it's not safe to conceive when you have chemo drugs in your system.

The people who use birth control for other reasons are a signficant enough number to be part of this debate.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Do you think the fundangelicals care
Why a person is using birth control? Remember, there's a strong contingent there who think that women should be able to pray away such problems (including a man Bush appointed to a major health care policy position).

Are the people who use oral contraception for other reasons aware of the danger of it being taken away from them?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Most don't care what the fundangelicals think
I don't think there's a danger of it being taken away.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I'm glad you're sure
I've been around these folks enough to be wary.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I've been around medicine long enough to not let them bother me.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
60. How do you feel about the Dem congress denying Plan B to military women?
I would think that would profit corporations to have that pill more available. So whose idea was it to not allow it and why?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. So I guess that means this is a dead issue
It makes no sense to even fight because we will never win. That pill is not considered to be in the same category of other forms of contraception.

Actually these corps would want as many people on birth control because that would mean there would be less people that need Plan B.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. I am not at all sure what you disagree with me on.
If I knew maybe I could write a new post that was more clear. Maybe I did not present it well.

I don't know what you are talking about being a dead issue.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. When Fundis move into government, anything can be taken away . . .
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. That's because people don't know how to fight
We have the majority in the House and we have the potential to gain more seats in 2010.

You make a mistake in believing that all Fundis think the same way. You all are doing yourselves a disservice by believing this.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. We don't know "how to fight" . . .????
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 02:48 PM by defendandprotect
How do you fight corporate money buying government and legislators ---

except by asking that same government to EXCLUDE corporations from

any participation in our elections? Think they'll do that?

Forget the numbers -- look at the leadership -- Pelosi/Reid.

What are they doing?

We call them "Fundis" because they are "Fundamentalists" who believe in

the absolute word of the Bible --- literally!!!

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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. You make my point, there is a huge difference between corporatists and fundis
Corporatist only care about profits and might actually be a good ally to prevent and restrictions on birth control. The pharmaceutical industry would be an enthusiastic ally.

Like, I said all fundis don't think the same.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Not so much difference . . .
Capitalism is an invention of the Vatican -- i.e., closely connected in fanatacism

and profit!

You think that Churches aren't concerned with profit????

Fundis are used -- brainwashed and used --- by religion.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Again all fundies don't think the same
So many of you all have interesting fear of these fundies.

Banning all forms of birth control is not a popular opinion even among fundies.

There is no profit from the church to get invovled in this issue. They may find themselves losing their profits as they begin to lose members.

Capitalism was around long before the Vatican was established.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. "Banning all forms of birth control is not a popular opinion even among fundies"
"Banning all forms of birth control is not a popular opinion even among fundies"

RJ Eskow: Fundamentalists Want to Take Over -- At the Pharmacy
Fundamentalists Want to Take Over -- At the Pharmacy - The Huffington Post ... Come to think of it, isn't control what fundamentalism is always about? ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/fundamentalists-want-to-t_b_11892.html - 56k - Cached

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/fundamentalists-want-to-t_b_11892.html

There is no profit from the church to get invovled in this issue. They may find themselves losing their profits as they begin to lose members.

The self-interest of organized patriarchal religion in controlling female reproduction

and the female body couldn't be more obvious over 2,000 years!!

It is a huge center of interest, especially in providing new members for churches and

workers for capitalists. And where the Vatican has lost influence in Catholic

counties in reproductive issues, they may now be using their great wealth and politics to

regain control.

Capitalism was around long before the Vatican was established.

Wrong gain -- Capitalism is only around 150/500 years old.

Vatican has been in business 2,000 years.


Modern capitalism is only 500 years old. It has been 150 years since Marx analyzed its workings, and showed that although in its beginning capitalism was a liberating force, it was already outliving its usefulness and becoming a fetter on the progress of mankind.
http://www.pww.org/article/articleprint/8349/


Another interesting article ...

Monthly Review February 1999 Will Miller
... is a very recent event, perhaps no more than 10,000 ... historical process, market capitalism, is only 500 years old in Europe and much newer elsewhere. ...
www.monthlyreview.org/299mill.htm - Cached
http://www.monthlyreview.org/299mill.htm


The History of the Catholic Church from apostolic times covers a period of nearly 2,000 years, <1> making it the world's oldest and largest institution. It dates its beginning to the confession of Peter, and the establishment of the Church by Jesus Christ. <2> <3> <4> <5> Catholic doctrine states that Christ is the head of his Mystical Body, the Catholic Church.<6> <7> <8> <9> The history of the Roman Catholic Church is integral to the History of Christianity and the history of Western civilization.<10>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I stand by what I said
All fundies don't think like that. It's unfortunate that you can't comprehend that.

All fundies are not against birth control because they don't want all those children. Also there are fundies on the right who are on chemo and know that they don't want to get pregnant while on chemo because they don't want to risk giving birth to a deformed baby.

The Repubs have taken a hit with the Fundie community since the last election.

The vatican has only been in business since 1929. The catholic church has been around for thousands of years.

I'm telling you what I know and you're telling me what you can google. Do your thing.

This is what I'm talking about not knowing how to fight. You'd rather go blow for blow on a message board with a fellow Dem whom you probably have more in common than directing your energy in areas that can be more fruitful.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Well...
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 05:28 PM by defendandprotect
Standing by what you say, despite evidence to contrary, doesn't make any sense ..

but go to it--!!

The vatican has only been in business since 1929. The catholic church has been around for thousands of years.

Sorry, but Vatican City was created in 1929 ... not the Vatican.
After Italian occupation of Rome in September 1870 (and after the
Italian annexation of Papal States), the Pope decided to retire in the Vatican palaces.


This period 1864 . . . was the beginning of democracy in France -- "Equality for all" -
and in Italy. Something that the RCC still stands against.

The Pope went into isolation and invented "Papal Infallibility."


The Vatican as a Free Society
180k - Adobe PDF - View as html
and again by Pius IX (Giovanni Maria Mastai Ferretti, 1846-1878) and it was ... Vatican City means that Italian government cannot exercise interference in this ...
www.mises.org/journals/scholar/lottieri2.pdf

I'm telling you what I know and you're telling me what you can google. Do your thing.

Were you there ...?

This is what I'm talking about not knowing how to fight. You'd rather go blow for blow on a message board with a fellow Dem whom you probably have more in common than directing your energy in areas that can be more fruitful.

I'm on this message board because I don't think erroneous information benefits anyone!

Additionally, organized patriarchal religion -- as you can see from the thread we are

commenting upon - has had a disastrous effect on the world in its historical violence -

and on those they consider "inferior" ....i.e., women, homosexuals, Jews, native Americans,

African-Americans, pagans -- and anyone who believed differently from what they believed.

Further, "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are two crocks which gave

license to the few to exploit nature -- animal life and natural resources ---

and even other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."







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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Tenacious D, lol
Capitalism didn't start with the vatican. Capitalism was around before 1800's.

You strayed so far off the subject of this post, that's funny.

You have your opinions of religion and it's not positive. That's your opinion and I'm not trying to change it.

My issue is whether the church is going to ban abortions and birth control. I don't think they will be that effective or even have the desire to be that effective. I believe they have been using these wedge to keep their ever decreasing base fired up.

It's true that some pharmacies and even some hospitals are refusing to dispense with birth control or abortions. That doesn't mean that we've lost on this issue and should sit back and let them take over. These pharmacists(and pharmacies) haven't come under many court challenges regarding refusing care. This is where we fight, in the court and in the state legislature. We work to get more Dems elected on a State and Federal level who can put leglislation in place to protect the rights of women.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #74
89. How did you feel when the Dems did not bring the vote up for military
women to have access to Plan B on military bases?

They were our party, and they did not bring up the vote.

I have my view of religion now after being raised in the church. It is not a good one either.

They are after control of women's lives. It is more the church leaders to start off, but the congregations so along.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. Of course my opinion ...
Edited on Wed Jan-14-09 01:07 AM by defendandprotect
of organized patrisrchal religion isn't positive ... why would it be--??

It's based on male superiority and oppression of females--!!! And many others--!!!

My issue is whether the church is going to ban abortions and birth control. I don't think they will be that effective or even have the desire to be that effective. I believe they have been using these wedge to keep their ever decreasing base fired up.

No Church can ban abortion or birth control -- only the government can do that.

However, like corporations, the church has great wealth and influence still on

government, especially since Bush increased "State" entanglements with "Church -

including by passing taxpayer dollars onto them.

It's true that some pharmacies and even some hospitals are refusing to dispense with birth control or abortions. That doesn't mean that we've lost on this issue and should sit back and let them take over. These pharmacists(and pharmacies) haven't come under many court challenges regarding refusing care. This is where we fight, in the court and in the state legislature. .

Many of our hopitals are now run by Catholic Church which denies the effectiveness of condoms

and refuses to recommend them even to AIDS patients. They also refuse to provide Plan B for rape

victims. While many organizations have sued, the Bush government is not prosecuting on

behalf of consumers, as it should be.

We work to get more Dems elected on a State and Federal level who can put leglislation in place to protect the rights of women

This is where we began ....

The DLC is enlisting corporate/regressive and "Pro-life" Democrats to run against

progressive Democrats.

Both parties continue to run candidates at every level who are corporate and now often

religiously fanatical.

If you have had any experience with politics, you will know that the costs of running in

any race is prohibitive and that leaves pretty much wealth/elite candidates in the run

and average people OUT.




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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. I'm not worried about it
I don't think it will happen. I'm not worried about the church because there are many in the church that are opposed to banning all birth control.

The Catholic hospitals that ban those services have been doing this for years. If they were the only hospital and they weren't private that might be a problem.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. The idea is to ...
awaken you to these real concerns ...

including the injustice of organized patriarchal religion --

We discuss the "church" ... not members who have traditionally no influence over

Vatican hierarchy --

In fact, the right-wing cult in the Vatican have basically overturned Vatican II

by Pope John XXIII--!!

The Catholic Hospitals are now too often the ONLY hospitals --




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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. You're going to awaken me?
Too funny.

I'm not concerned about it because, I keep telling you this. lol smh
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. If you don't see injustice ...
in organized patriarchal religion, you're more than asleep...

you're disingenuous --

Which is good to know ..

You're on ignore --

:)
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. cya
wouldn't want to be ya. I'm disingenuous because I don't believe that religion people will succeed in banning all birth control?

This is the point of this discussion. I see there are challenges regarding short attention spans. No problem, it's a frequent malady on this board.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
106. As an ex-fundy, I can tell you that fundies are fundies because they DO think alike.
They try to be of one mind, the mind of Christ. And the leaders decide what the "mind of Christ" is.

Believe me, they're very dangerous to freedom.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Many have a different interpretation on what the Mind of Christ is
Many leaders think differently. Also, all religious people aren't Fundies and this board frequently puts them all in the same category.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Good reminders.
Thanks.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Yours is a very important point, one that needs to be emphasized
Right now, in third world countries, women die while in labor because the same drug that could control their hemorrhaging is also a drug that can induce abortion.

I used to think that abortion was wrong. Then, in 1972, I ended up miscarrying at the eight week mark, and not being admitted to a hospital because the young resident thought that my miscarriage had been self-induced. It wasn't so much his disapproval of me, but his concern that he would lose his hospital's license should he admit me and then it be found out that I had aborted my pregnancy. If his hospital lost its license, that would have been the end of his career.

So instead of receiving help, I was sent home. Only through a rather mysterious fluke of circumstances (My mom, who did not know I was pregnant, and who usually only called or dropped by on weekends decided to come over and "visit" when she heard that my husband had called me in sick at work) and when she saw the amount of blood I lost, she had my childhood pediatrics doctor admit me to his hospital. This saved my life. It was the one and only time I really appreciated my parents' middle income status in the world, and my mom's resolve to "be someone" socially.

I now feel that any and all decisions about a woman's body should be made by that woman and her doctor. If it is a "sin" to have an abortion, that "sin" is possibly something that the woman having the abortion can live with, if the alternative is to be raising her child in the back seat of a car, or in a homeless shelter, etc.

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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. Wow
It's good your mother got you to a hospital.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
86. What a frightening story...
...thank goodness your mom showed up at the right time! It's outrageous that a doctor could deny admittance to you in that circumstance, because of his assumption about how the problem came about -- as though that should have made a difference in treating you anyway.

But that is exactly what the original post is warning about: ultimately, women's health needs will be at the mercy of politics, and the zealots will be writing the laws while most people who aren't paying close attention will be saying "Oh, no, it'll never get that bad" -- which is going on right now, even right in this thread.

Personally I think the reason that Democrats and politicians in general shy away from the issues of reproductive rights and gay rights is that these issues are messy and have to do with sex. Sex is messy: there are relationships involved, which are messy in the sense that they cannot be rigidly defined or controlled; it's messy in the act itself; and it's messy when there are issues of birth and potential abortions. These are not your nice, glamorous issues -- these are issues that people would rather sweep under the rug while they're busy touting the theoretical (and, of course, absolute) rights of fetuses and ignoring any rights of women in the same context. Back to women as chattel -- they have no say in the matter of reproduction or the health issues that arise in that regard. I won't ascribe motives, I'll just give the benefit of the doubt and say that the anti-abortionists are misguided. But your story is a clear warning of the kind of thing that can happen when we all think we can ignore the "messy stuff" because of some misguided "political pragmatism".

Thank you for sharing your story, very apropos to this discussion.

And thanks to MadFloridian for keeping this important issue front and center, where it belongs.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
93. I had no idea they were doing that ---
If women do self-abortion, they are dependent upon medical care because they

can lose their lives. And, all of this is further evidence of how cheaply

organized patriarchal religion holds women's lives --- !!!

You were very fortunate --- !!!

And this is outrageous!!!
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
69. True and...
BC pills also keep the risk of ovarian cysts down, some cysts (hemoragic) can kill you if they rupture and bleed out internally. Some women are prone to such cysts. The pill shuts down ovarian function eliminating the risk. I lost my right ovary to one when I was just 17. Getting on the pill and staying on the pill allowed me to preserved my remaining ovary for later use. The pill also helps control symptoms like excessive menstrual bleeding associated with fibroid tumors. Depending on your blood pressure and health it is possible to stay on the pill up and until menopause where you just transition over to other hormone therapy as/if needed. It also helps diminish pre-menopausal systems. It can keep one out of the hospital and save much money on medical expenses.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. Very true. And those against it for religious reasons don't consider that
as legitimate. I find it shocking that Southern Baptists are leading the way on this.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #69
95. It's also helpful for endometriosis.
I was diagnosed with that at 21. I was on the pill for a long time because of that.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
105. Me too, FT
Edited on Wed Jan-14-09 08:16 PM by fudge stripe cookays
It's called a chocolate ovary, and I had one burst in 2005. I'd evidently had endometriosis for quite awhile, but never had one symptom before that. Most horrific pain I'd ever known. How about you?

The doctor said if we'd waited any longer to come in I would have had REAL problems. At first glance at the sonogram, they thought it was cancer. THAT was fun to hear at 37. I still have pain every month, even with the pills, but it helps to keep it under control. I'm one of those gals who is REALLY looking forward to menopause.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. My first one...
didn't burst. The doc identified it after I hadn't had a period in a few months. They scheduled surgery to remove it and it ruptured during surgery so I was painlessly unaware, but out of school my graduating year. I've had trouble with them off and on and may have had a small one burst and one point but it was minor but it was painful enough to send me to the doctor. Still on the pill at 48. Now I have fibroids. Docs have wanted me to have a hysterectomy since I was in my 20's. That was too young and now I just can't bring myself to spend all my time off recuperating. I want to spend my time off having fun but I wonder how long I can push that envelope. I guess so long as my blood pressure stays in check I'm good. Lots of people have suggested getting a partial hysterectomy but that leaves your ovaries so it doesn't help me out. I've always been an all or nothin kinda girl.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
98. That's true...
When I was 22 I had serious hormonal problems that could only have been straightened out one of two ways...

birth control pills or hysterectomy

I was on BC pills for a couple of years, and they worked.
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
24. Contraception-bans have alway been the runner-up (after abortion) issue..n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
25. Straight Story just posted an example from Dallas County about condoms.
Not exactly about my post, but actually very close. They want to restrict giving out condoms because it would encourage "immoral behavior."

Same overall theme. Control.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4819930

"Before 1995, county health workers routinely ventured into communities to hand out condoms and needle sterilization kits to those with the greatest risk of infection. But that year, a narrow majority of commissioners voted to end the practice, saying it encouraged illegal and immoral behavior."
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. I know people who call many contraceptive methods "abortion"
And, of course, this is why some pharmacists don't want to have to give out contraceptives.

So there is truth to it.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. WE TOLD YOU SO. (Back in the 90s)
Back in the 90s, I was working for some major pro-choice organizations and we knew THEN that the fundamentalist right was not interested in stopping at abortion but also wanted to stop birth control. This was in their literature to their own followers. It was very clear no matter what they said in public. Everyone said we were crazy back then and the Reagan Democrats kept voting conservative and the Democratic party began to move away from women's rights, especially with the appointment of Harry Reid. We kept trying to tell you guys.

Well, welcome to the fold but it's probably to damned late now. The Supreme Court is being petitioned to overturn Roe v Wade and they probably have the votes to do it.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. All women should practice abstinence
until the clergy and religious nuts get the point. See how long before birth control becomes a sacrament.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. So you haven't heard the latest: According to "Dr." Laura and Dennis Prager, women should
be constantly available for sex with their husbands to prevent the guys from leaving. Women are supposed to become baby factories and whore themselves out so that the father of their children won't leave. As if any man worth his salt would have so little character.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. "whore themselves out"?
Although "constantly" "baby factories" and "prevent the guys from leaving" may together warrant that kind of strong language.

Something about what you wrote bothers me. Being available for sex can be taken to extremes. I think you are attacking the extremes, if so alright.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Attacking the extremes.
One assumes married people might like to have sex, especially when they don't have to take the risk of having more and more kids. Of course, if they don't want to have sex, there's always Jay Leno. :evilgrin:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. That has always been the goal of abortion proponents.
As you indicate in your article, the point of view is anti-intellectual and anti-self-determination. The idea that people should control and paln their own lives based on rational reasons is antithetical to religion. If the churches cannot control the beginning and the ending of life, then it has lost, plain and simple. The reverse argument of "Give me the child and I will give you the man" is if we leave children alone they will never accept religious authority. They have to have control as early as possible in life to get their hooks in.

Anything that interferes with their god's plans is "unnatural" and unholy. One only needs to look at those sects that eschew blood transfusions medical help for disease to see that.

Of course it does not occur to them to refrain from abortion, contraception or gay relationships while leaving others outside of that religion to do what they want. After all, as a nonbeliever I am simply not bound by the religious rules of the S. Baptist Church. As a rule, the religious mind does not tolerate dissent from unbelievers.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
61. You mean abortion opponents, right? nt
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Oops! Yup, that's what I meant.
:blush:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Phew. Either that, or I was really confused! nt
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. Democrats are compromising us to death, poverty, and depression. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Agree ---
Corporate money does have its influence --- !!!
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. people who think that will happen obviously didn't learn the lessons of prohibition.
contraception is too firmly entrenched in american society for it to be completely taken away. there's also A LOT of money in such a HUGE market.

next issue...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. You'd be amazed at how quickly birth control could be removed . . .
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
75. I had a conversation with my OB/GYN in which he disclosed
that in the clinic's contract with the hospital who they rent space from, there is language prohibiting the doctors from even mentioning birth control to the patients. This is a clinic at the Nashville Baptist Hospital, which partnered with St Thomas Hospital a few years back. The doctor said that they don't enforce it.
All that's needed is for Roe v Wade to be overturned and these imbeciles will ram through anti-birth control laws thru as fast as they can.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. the public wouldn't stand for birth control being taken away...
it's not going to happen.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. The public will stand for anything.
Trust me.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. maybe in florida...
but not around here.

trust me.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I'm in TN...the GOP has both houses and are looking to settle in for
generations, if they can.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. if they take away rubbers, diaphragms and the pill, they might find themselves unsettled.
people don't take kindly when government takes away their particular vice...and everyone likes to fuck.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #75
92. Agree . . .
Many hospitals are now run by church.

If Roe is overturned, they will go the step further to criminalize abortion

making sure that the consequences are very severe --

tho, always, for women and illegal abortion, the consequences might be death.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Did you read how the Dems did not provide emergency contraception to military women?
I think that was in my post.

So it is happening already.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. meanwhile the penis pump and viagra are covered by medicare.
which is absurd.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
85. Ok...I knew Viagra was covered by Medicare.
But the other? Really?

How is that justified?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
94. What about the pill -- isn't that getting very expensive???
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. Women haters
As well as Gay haters. These people represent a societal abnormality, a pathology, probably related to the same pathologies that start wars and create serial killers. No, I'm not being sarcastic.

They may have numbers, a type of mass hysteria ala Jim Jones as far as I'm concerned, but they are not psychologically healthy, not stable, are hateful and destructive.

Very, very sick people who need to stop trying to dictate policy to those of us with a bit of sanity--as represented by love and tolerance, protective and altruistic interest in those who are repressed and objectified and the ability to not obsess over someone's reproductive status or sexuality. Just to name a few general things.

They need help. Perhaps a retreat, or a camp. Maybe inpatient therapy for homophobics and misogynists trying to recover from the soul deep damage of hatred and fear of themselves turned outward to who think are easy to dominate.

Since that's not gonna happen, I guess we continue to fight, until Democratic leaders put policy over political expediency, an expediency toward people who have a perhaps incurable, societal insanity

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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
63. Another vitally important piece to be considered. Bravo!
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. Who's Killed More People In This World?
I'd say that score goes to religions. What does everyone else think?

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. They're certainly up there in the top two by my reckoning, Leftest. But I'm giving first place
to governments/aristocracies. Basically, the "nobility" maintaining, expanding, consolidating their power and influence (hence wealth).

Consider such players as the early dynasties that we know of: Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Romans, the various European tribes such as the Goths, Vandals, Huns, etc., Vikings, feudal European states, Japanese, Spaniards, Dutch, French, British (although the Spanish in particular liked to mix their brand of mercantile conquest with a dollop of religious fervor to make the pie more palatable). Then, in modern times we Americans, the Axis powers--Germany, Italy, Japan--the Russians, Turks, the Communist Chinese, North Koreans. Who have I forgotten?

So, the outright religious banner-waving worst of the bunch have to be the early Christian church with their crusades and Islam with its Mediterranean-area conquests.

But back to the main topic, I agree with Madflo that these religious zealots are a HUGE threat. Just the fact that Obama has Daschle at HHS is very scary. Those of us who have been supporting women's rights for these many years need to be hyper-vigilant and we must let our elected officials know how much we value women's right to control their own bodies.

I just got my official DNC "thank-you-so-much-for-your-support-and-please-give-us-more-money" letter. It will go back to them with a long list of the things I am unhappy with, starting with Tim Kaine's selection as head honcho. Women's rights will be prominently featured. I want them to know that I am bitterly unhappy with what I am seeing from our Democratic leadership.

Not to mention how Howard Dean has been treated. But that's another topic.





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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
76. Stop worrying! Centrists will "co-opt" these crusading anti-feminists by reaching out to them
Just like the centrists co-opted the extremists in Germany in the early 1930s.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. Good comment.
Probably true.

:hi:
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Mister Ed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
90. And if you were too tired to have sex with your spouse tonight, well that's murder too.
'Cause, you know, that poor little baby that you could have made is now doomed to oblivion.

:sarcasm:
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
96. Saying feminine birth control is murder shows this SB minister to have absolutely no knowledge of
contraception, anatomy, and science. Birth control pills stop ovulation. If that's murder of the poor, unfertilized egg, than so is masturbation in males, killing those poor little sperm.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
100. SBC and the widespread judgmentalism
are the main reasons I quit being a Baptist.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
103. There is one sure way to eliminate these egregious intrusions on women's
roghts. The Greek drama Lysistrata has the definitive answer. If you haven't seen/read it, do so!. It isn't a man's world, girls! Take some Greek advice. The women in the play, who were sick and tired of continuous warfare, withheld sex until war was ended permanently. No contraception equals no sex. That should make mincemeat of the problem...and many others.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. A farcical play written by a man for an audience of men...
"Lysistrata" is a fun piece of ancient drama, and that's all. No one was raped after saying no in the play; can't quite imagine that happening in real life...
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
107. Remember ladies:
You're nothing but baby-making machines. Bow to your husbands and make sure to say thanks when he gives you any.

:sarcasm:

:puke:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
112. Let's take this to the logical conclusion
no antibiotics for these folks either... god's will right? God's plan right?

There are days I want to scream

good news the last culture war died during the Great Depression
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
113. My ovaries are mine, they belong to nobody else, certainly nor Southern Baptists!
Jesus Christ!

Besides we murder animals in slaughterhouses every day and no one cares. Life too.
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