In society’s view, a double standard on teen sex abuse (girls seen as victims, boys as lucky)

[The Straight Story]

In society’s view, a double standard on teen sex abuse

It’s all about power. That’s what counselors and psychologists say is the central issue in sexual relationships between adults and adolescents. It doesn’t matter if the adult is a man or a woman, they say, the adult has the power. But it does matter when it comes to how others see it.

Girls are seen more as victims, Tom Faxon, a clinical social worker at Bayview Quincy at South Shore Mental Health said, while boys are seen as “lucky.”

Boys face the expectation that it’s “everybody’s fantasy” to have sex with their teacher, Faxon said.

That difference in perception is evident in the case of Abington elementary school teacher Christine McCallum, 29, who was charged Friday with seven counts of statutory rape, stemming from what prosecutors say was a nearly two-year relationship she had with a boy beginning when he was 13.

“This is an adult. An adult with power, and then someone as a teacher has a lot of power,” Faxon said.

Several comments on The Patriot Ledger’s Web site pertaining to the McCallum case have called the relationship “every kid’s dream.”

http://www.patriotledger.com/news/cops_and_courts/x1354851427/In-society-s-view-a-double-standard-on-teen-sex-abuse

[ogneopasno]

1. Boys are "lucky" if abused by a woman, though. In any case, this is very true, and sad.

Waiting to see if the "if MY teacher had come onto me..." posts start.

[booley]

9. IF my teacher had come onto me

Ok you get your wish..

If my teacher had come onto me yeah I probably would have responded.. because I was a teen age kid with lots of hormones and little sense and He was really hot.
And If I had been more comfortable with myself and had even less sense, I might have made the first move.

I agree society has this double standard going al the way back to the Victorian age that women had to be protected because they couldn't take care of themselves and must somehow not like sex.

For somewhat different reasons if this had been same sex, society would have had no problems labeling the kid as a victim as well, not necessarily because of abuse but because the teenage boy would be seen as "corrupted".

But the fact is teenagers are not quite so unaware of themselves. They know they want sex. While most don't get the idea of long term consequences, they aren't really knieve either. And let's face it. authority can be sexy regardless of age.

I have a feeling that teenagers , whether boy or girls, don't see themselves as victims.. at first. Not until the "concerned citizens" keep hammering home to them how "abused " they are. Thus what is a bad situation becomes a "horrible and life destroying" situation.

And now let me add the part that people always seem to somehow not bother reading..I am not saying sex between a teacher and student or an adult and young child is ok. But we do need to stop to act like kids have no minds of their own or that pushing our own prejudices onto a situation can't make it even worse.

[ogneopasno]

12. Whether kids have minds of their own or not is not the point. The point is this is against

the law and is an abuse of power.

[booley]

13. didn't say otherwise

which is why I stressed that teachers and students having sex was a bad idea . (at the end, right after the blurb about how people would ignore it)

Teachers and students having sex is a problem regardless of age. IF the student was 24, it would still be bad.

But we also can't act as if the kids themselves are just bystanders with no ability to make decisions for themselves. (just because we may consider them bad decisions doesn't mean a decision wasn't made)

[raccoon]

26. There's also an inconvenient truth involved here.

"I agree society has this double standard going al the way back to the Victorian age that women had to be protected because they couldn't take care of themselves and must somehow not like sex."

Women get pregnant. Until very recently in history, there was no reliable birth control.

Even a few short decades ago, there was a lot of stigma regarding unmarried pregnancies.

[dmallind]

2. No matter how much we dislike a phenomenon, facts are facts

because of social conditioning AND biological nature, it is certainly true that women are more often sexual "gatekeepers" than men. This is especially true at an early age. Yes yes I know there are many perfectly well restrained young men and insatiably promiscuous young women, but the norm has long been and still is that boys chase sex more often than girls allow them to succeed. If this were not the case, teenage girls would have multiple sexual partners on a daily basis. Again this happens, but is not the norm. Anyone who denies this is true for the majority of young people (and even older people, but with a less marked delta) simply cannot remember being young.


As such then it is perfectly true that more teenage boys would have sex with their teacher willingly and joyfully than would teenage girls. That does not stop the power imbalance, does not stop the illegality of the act or anything else, but it does indeed mean that the level of victimization can be differentiated on an aggregate basis. That it is not politically correct or "nice" to think about changes nothing.

And no I'm not speaking from experience or the memories of lost crushes. From age 11 I went to an all boys' public (UK detfinition) school where the two - count em two - female members of staff were not all that desireable even to a pubescent boy starved of female peer company. I am speaking form a clear memory of the sexual politics of teenagers however.

[MADem]

3. I suspect, if the male teachers looked like the current teen idols,

that the girls might be a bit more willing. A predator who was only ten or fewer years older than the victim and looked like (fill in name of most popular heartthrob of the day) would probably have an easier time of "scoring" with those gatekeeping teen girls than someone who looked like Mephistopholes.

Most of the male teachers caught doing this sort of thing simply look, well, "pervy." Most of the women who are caught are more attractive and certainly much younger than the male teachers, by and large. That is not a justification, for anyone eager to try to read that into my words, let me make that entirely clear, it is simply an observation.

The women teachers are also portrayed by their lawyers as lacking in maturity and sophistication. It's almost as though they've got Peter Pan-itis, they won't grow up. That Mary Kay Letourneau, who eventually married her grammar school lover, sounded like an eighth grader even after doing all that time in jail. That blonde teacher whose name escapes me (she looked like a fashion model) was the same way--she sounded like a teen-ager.

I agree with your remarks. Biology is what it is, and the rather stern cultural overlay that mitigates biological behavior is still here with us, even though it's less onerous than in centuries past. It doesn't "excuse" the differences, but it explains them, at any rate.

[booley]

11. I thin there are other factors at work here

First off, unless we are talking about actual rape (not just statutory rape) then the girls were willing. Perhaps not smart but willing. And lets face it, there are lot more teenage girls having sex with older men then the other way around (at least from what I can tell). So I think a lot of girls were willing. That doesn't mean they didn't come to regret it later.

Secondly, Letourneau's lawyers took advantage of societal prejudices: that women are weaker creatures, less able to grasp reality then men. So a woman should get a lighter punishment because she would be less responsible for her actions. Yes it's sick and base and makes a mockery of years of women fighting for equality. But her lawyer's job is to represent his client, not change society.

And last, I dare say the issue isn't what the teachers look like to you (though I know of no one who ever had a flattering mug shot) but that different people find different things attractive. Men and women generally find different things sexy and then individuals within each group find even more differences over what's how or not.

Hell if some people can even think I'm sexy, there's gotta be a lot of leeway.

[MADem]

15. Well, isn't that "cougar" phenom a big thing, now? Though I think they

get 'em young but legal. That's an increasingly common older woman/younger man dynamic. I suppose it's only fair, after all these decades of trophy wives.

I guess the whole dynamic of sexual relations is turning on its head, again.

As for mugshots, here's the young lady whose name escaped me: http://www.tabloidcolumn.com/debbie-lafave.html

I've seen yearbook pics that look way worse than that young lady's booking photo! And even for those who don't favor the "ice blonde" type, that woman, by all measures, was considered attractive. Immature as hell, and maybe a bit emotionally unbalanced, but attractive nonetheless.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Whenever I read a subject like that, I know that no good comes from it.

If we accept your contention that girls are harmed more by sex than boys are, we must conclude that boys are more like grown ups, capable of self-determination.

Accepting this world-view it's reasonable to ask at which age women become grownups, if in fact they ever do.

As for me, I reject it.

[dmallind]

7. Actually the opposite is more likely

I think for the most part sex IS viewed differently by men and women. Again everyone will try to refute this with anecodtes and personal claims, but both academic psychology and pop culture preferences indicate men view sex more to the physical aspect and less to the emotional aspect, especially in their sexual prime of their late teens.

I was actually (and still am) more of a "good guy" than a "bad boy" in this area - in that even as a teen I restrained myself to serial monogamy unlike many of my peers. And yet all of my peers - from the best looking to the worst - chased sexual relationships far more often than they succeeded, and far more indiscriminately than our female counterparts> Even as a monogamous guy I was not too concerned about the length or eventual success or emotional depth of the relationship. I cared not one iota at that age about seeking for a soul mate or a compatible life partner I could grow deeply in love with. The girls certainly did - even the ones who were more sexually available than the norm. Some cared less than others of course, and promiscuous girls who flitted from one guy to another were certainly not unknown, but much much much less common than their male counterparts.

Why? Par nurture and part nature as is often the case. Girls are reminded far more often than boys to be careful about being sexually active. They suffer a far worse blow to their reputations if they are promiscuous then boys do. Stories in both pop and cultured entertainment focus on the negatives of promiscuity for females far more than males. The biological and culture risks of pregnancy are far higher for giorls than boys.


And again I would turn your point on it's head. It IS more matiure to behave like most teenage girls than most teenage boys. When the hormones die down and sex becomes merely one thing not everything both genders tend to agree on this (with exceptions of course). Girls are far ahead of boys not far behind them.

SHOULD there be a cultural difference between girls and boys as far as sexual proimiscuity goes? I frankly don't know, but I know there IS, and I know most young people of both genders internalize this and confirm to it. Boys seek sex more than girls willingly accede to their search. I don't know how that can be refuted by anyone who either remembers being young or observes the behavior of young people currently (if you doubt this by the way even amongst adults, consult your local craigslist for casual encounters and compare W4M to M4W). I'd say the difference is becoming SOMEWHAT lessened, but only incrementally.

So girls ARE more victimized by these acts than boys. They suffer a worse blow to their reputations. They risk greater biological and sociological consequences. They are less likely to get what they are more likely to seek out of the relationship (the boy will get the physical sex most boys see as the primary benefit - the girls certainly I expect DO see that as a benefit, but are less likely to get what more of them than boys see as the primary benefit). It's not their FAULT or any sort of bias against them that makes this so.

[Karenina]

14. Excellent observations !!!

:yourock:

[dmallind]

16. Thanks - and a follow up clarification

I get into trouble in a lot of DU threads because I am willing to give responses about what IS rather than what should be, and to differentiate beween groups of people based on facts, when the general prefererence seems to be to pretend that all groups of people ARE equal rather than that they should be or can be. It's not because I'm all that heroic or all that unusually wise or even all that argumentative - it's just that I process information that way. What is matters in dealing with a problem and analyzing it. What should be only matters when you try to solve it. This is just one case (most recently the economics of car manufacturing and the heavy impact of labor costs seemed to cause most angst in this realm. It is not the FAULT of labor that there are many many times more of them than there are top executives, but still the idea of blame for this fact was constantly assumed. I wonder what it is that makes people assume data about a group is always culpable within that group). I have not a single intent of saying girls are more fragile or insecure or inferior in any way when I say they view sex differently. I just think, with much inductive evidence, that they DO. Since they view sex differently, it stands to reason that they will feel the results of sexual exploitation differently, and in this instance usually more deeply and hurtfully, than boys on the whole. There is no fault on either side here (betwen the girl and boy victims for their different responses that is - obviously there is fault in the victimizers of either gender).

[Karenina]

17. Girls do indeed view sex differently.

Boys have positive societal reinforcement for their sexual conduct, girls face condemnation and pregnancy. These perceptions are ingrained at an early age. You know, EVE did it. :eyes: That said, the issues are the POWER IMBALANCES. If the younger party feels empowered by the experience, hey, what's "wrong" with that? If they feel EXPLOITED, well there's PLENTY WRONG with that and the laws should reflect the difference, were that possible. ;-)

I was fortunate to have come of age when sex =/=death, disease or permanent enslavement. It was a very short window of time. I indulged, learned a lot about my preferred partners and wouldn't trade that knowledge and understanding for anything.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. He's not talking about social reinforcement and gender roles.

He's talking about biology.

If you'd think it through for a minute, you'd be less willing to agree.

If a 30 year old woman with a 15 year old boy is a harmless relationship (presumably because the power differential is nonexistent) what does this say about the presumed power of the 30 year old woman relative to her 30 year old male peers?

If I were forced to choose between two job candidates, one of whom was a responsible adult, and one who was legally less responsible and only a quasi-adult, I don't think the choice would be difficult.

If kids mature at different rates, why is there a blanket 18 year age limit for voting? Seems to me that kids who have the wherewithal and maturity to have sex with their teachers are old enough to vote. :sarcasm:... a little.

[Karenina]

22. Word and idea salad. NOTHING TO DO with my post.

:crazy:

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Then perhaps you can better explain this;

If the younger party feels empowered by the experience, hey, what's "wrong" with that? If they feel EXPLOITED, well there's PLENTY WRONG with that and the laws should reflect the difference, were that possible.

If the different ways that boys and girls experience sex, and different degree with which they are exploited by it, require that "laws should reflect the difference", then my "word salad" is entirely relevant.

[dmallind]

24. DELETE DUPE

[dmallind]

25. Emmm could *I* be the one who says what I am talking about please?

I'm certainly not just talking about biology. Biology plays a part in it - after all men do not generally suffer life-threatening ramificantions of pregnancy for a start, and nor are humans immunie from evolutionary gender differences of other similar primates that cause men to be rather indiscriminate in their procreation. But sociology is far more of a reason why there IS a difference in the level of victimization in the genders, and I mentioned repeatedly the ideas of loss of reputation, social indoctrination into gender roles, and so on.

Kids mature IN DIFFERENT WAYS at different rates. This is not a surprise and not a controversial statement. Both psychological and physical development are different on the aggregate by gender.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. So women are significantly more fragile and needing of society's protection?

What does this imply about equality? Women in the workforce? Women in the military?

For that matter, what does it imply about fatherhood and stay at home dads?

To what roles do our hardwired differences relegate the respective genders?

I call bullshit. Not so much to the differences between genders, but to the legal and social conclusions that this forces us into.

[dmallind]

28. It says nothing about those things

Equality does not mean nondivergence. Rights do not depend on biological or sociological differences. I mean HONESTLY do people think that because someone says women are on the whole weaker in upper body strength than men (perfectly true) that means the implication is they should not have the same rights as men, or the ability to do any job for which the individual woman is capable? Some jobs involve very heavy lifting . MORE (not all) men are more capable of doing these jobs than MORE (not all) women. That IS biology, and not disputable by anyone sane. That does not mean no woman can do such a job nor does it mean all women who can should not have equal opportunity to do so.

Saying that women suffer more harm from sexual exploitation does not mean they are more fragile. It means that both biologically (pregnancy risks) and socially (the pervasive view of a promiscuous man as a "playboy" whereas a promiscuous woman is more likely to be a "slut:' plus the widely accepted role of women as sexual gatekeepers) the results of such activity well generate a more negative result for girls than boys. That is not, and was never implied to be, because of a failing of girls or a lack of equality, any more than, say, the higher male suicdie rate means males are more cowardly or nihilistic or fragile than women. Different is not worse. Equal is not identical.

[raccoon]

27. Well said, especially this:

"They (girls) suffer a far worse blow to their reputations if they are promiscuous then boys do. "

[dmallind]

29. Apparently to some that is an insult to girls.

No idea why, but I guess some people think equality must mean complete simulacra.

[MineralMan]

5. Adults having sex with youngsters

are simply wrong. And for teachers to do it is unconscionable, whatever their gender. It is that simple.

I have no double standard at all when it comes to this subject.

[dmallind]

8. And I did not imply otherwise

The question is the degree of harm caused to one over the other.

Both are illegal and worng. That is fine and as it should be. But that's not the question asked or answered here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Degree of harm.

At what age does the degree of harm to a girl who consents to sex with an adult drop to a point where it is not a social (legal) problem?

At what age does the degree of harm to a boy who consents to sex with an adult drop to the point where it not a social (legal) problem? Is that age different if the adult in question is a man?

If your answers are not the same, it either means that one gender is better prepared for self-determination or that there exists a differential in their legal worth. I'm not prepared to accept either argument.

[dmallind]

30. That's good, because they are both strawmen

At what age does alcohol consumption become a problem then not a problem?

Did you miss the part where I said both genders of sexual exploutation of a minor were wrong and both are and should be illegal?

The question never was that boys should be able to be freely exploited at a younger age than girls. You must either show me where I said or implied that or agree that this is a bullshit objection. The question was only of the degree of harm caused overall to the "average" exploited boy and the "average" exploited girl. In each gender I am sure there is a wide range of harm from minor to catastrophic, but the harm to more girls is worse than the harm to more boys, because of both biological, psychological and sociological differences between the genders and how they function and are perceived, that I keep having to remind myself are perfectly accepted and universally acknowledged everywhere but DU apparently, where the concept of equality is all too often confused with exact duplication. Boys and girls are different in many ways. Not sure why that's apparently news here.

[Romulox]

31. So society should excuse it because of biological proclivity? How about rape?

or other forms of violence?

[tomreedtoon]

6. Parent figures for kids when they don't have any.

That is what draws teens to have sex with their teachers. If a girl is intellectual and thoughtful, and her father is something of a lout, she'll gravitate to the well-dressed, intellectual English teacher. Quite often it's just a crush; a teacher who manipulates students (and ALL teachers do it in some fashion or another) can take advantage of that.

Did you catch that moment in George Lucas's American Graffiti where the otherwise-unknown girl started having an intimate conversation with the handsome, confident English teacher in a darkened corridor? Besides being one of the few moments that Lucas suggested sex in his films, it was one of the most true-to-life situations in the film.

I suppose we should be lucky that most teachers prefer to inflict pain and humiliation on their students, not sex.

[SoCalDem]

10. When junior high-high school teachers were mostly (all?) women

back in the "stone age", there were very few "young" ones, and I doubt that many young boys sat there mesmerized with daydreams about the "hot" 60 yr old female math teacher..

The 60's ushered in a whole LOT of young women who finally had an opportunity to go to college in big numbers and actually pursue a career beyond "finding a husband in college".. It became commonplace to see a 24 yr old young woman, at the height of her sexuality & beauty, thrown into a classroom with horny young 17 yr olds..

It also was a time when it became MORE common to see men teaching co-ed classes in elementary & secondary schools with young teenaged girls who were swooning over Troy Donahue & Paul Newman at the movies every weekend..


School is the ONE place where the adults regularly get exposed to lots of teenagers and vice versa. Teachers need to have a connection to the teens, in order to teach them, and of course there are always going to be a few who cross the line..

Most teens get crushes, but that's as far as it goes.. It's the FIRST place a kid gets to test out his/her feelings .. They do not test "those feelings" at home for obvious reasons, and they are not in the workforce.. There's a thin sliver of time 13-18, when they are figuring things out, and some will always cross that line with a predatory or stupid teacher who has not signed onto adult behavior..

[Deja Q]

19. "But it does matter when it comes to how others see it."

True, but depending on the topic, which can be any topic for any person, that phrase is one people don't want to hear. :(

And true, society at large still has that double standard. Which is nonetheless sickening, but it's still there. How does one end the double standard... without getting yelled at...

[raccoon]

32. It won't end in my lifetime, and I doubt it will in yours. nt