Whatever It Takes: The politics of the man behind “24.”

[arcadian]

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer



snip

Surnow, a cigar enthusiast, has converted a room down the hall from his office into a salon with burled-wood humidors and a full bar; his friend Rush Limbaugh, the conservative talk-radio host, sometimes joins him there for a smoke. (Not long ago, Surnow threw Limbaugh a party and presented him with a custom-made “24” smoking jacket.)

snip

For all its fictional liberties, “24” depicts the fight against Islamist extremism much as the Bush Administration has defined it: as an all-consuming struggle for America’s survival that demands the toughest of tactics. Not long after September 11th, Vice-President Dick Cheney alluded vaguely to the fact that America must begin working through the “dark side” in countering terrorism. On “24,” the dark side is on full view. Surnow, who has jokingly called himself a “right-wing nut job,” shares his show’s hard-line perspective. Speaking of torture, he said, “Isn’t it obvious that if there was a nuke in New York City that was about to blow—or any other city in this country—that, even if you were going to go to jail, it would be the right thing to do?”

[stopbush]

1. Never seen this show. Looks like a pile of RW crap to me.

[frylock]

7. i watched a season of 24..

and it was indeed a pile of RW crap. it was really so over-the-top it was fuckin laughable. my favorite part was when AF1 was shot down and crashed in Palm Desert. The "terrorists" were able to get there before the marines, despite the fact that the crash site was about 2 min. flight away from 29 Palms.

[SammyWinstonJack]

57. Same here and for the same reason.

:puke:

[okiru109]

71. neoCON Soft-Porn

per Keith Olbermann and that's my take, too

[Starbucks Anarchist]

2. I wouldn't classify the show as "right-wing," per se.

For one, the most heroic President on the show was a black Democrat, while the Benedict Arnold type was a Republican.

Also, the show features or has featured liberal actors like Janeane Garofalo and James Cromwell.

[JackRiddler]

3. Not "right wing," it's a very hip, post-modern fascism on 24.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. A show full of ACLU lawyers wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

[JackRiddler]

27. How do you know that?

I think a show about a unit hunting down acts of treason, human rights violation and corruption committed under an unelected junta that declared global war on enemies unknown would be fascinating.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

30. I meant it wouldn't work well as a thriller.

[JackRiddler]

33. Of course it would. Imagine "The Wire" but they're chasing after the Bush mob.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. "The Wire" (my favorite show) is not a thriller.

A thriller relies heavily on pacing, and in terms of that, "24" is a Concorde while "The Wire" is a bicycle.

[JackRiddler]

40. A season of "The Wire" is a 12 hour thriller...

that builds from many strands and hits it all together at the end. Really, being able to see a whole season in a week thanks to Netflix, that's how it feels.

24 is just the same fast speed for 18 hours (sorry, can't count the commercials). Piles of implausibility to maintain the real-time pretense, which can't be taken seriously (sorry, it just doesn't feel real time to me).

[Starbucks Anarchist]

42. The pacing is still far different.

24 is just the same fast speed for 18 hours (sorry, can't count the commercials). Piles of implausibility to maintain the real-time pretense, which can't be taken seriously (sorry, it just doesn't feel real time to me).

Any realtime-influenced show will have lots of implausibilities. You either suspend disbelief and enjoy it or you don't.

And "24" generally ends on a cliffhanger, even at the end of an act, while "The Wire" generally does not -- that helps the thriller viewpoint.

[DBoon]

8. it IS an effort to make fascism look hip

Think of Mussolini's courting of the Italian Futurists

The untraditional elements (the Black president, etc.) are designed to make the underlying message of brutality more acceptable.

[el_bryanto]

16. That of course implys that they do have a serious message to impart

I don't think they do; rather I think they are trying to tell interesting stories, which are quite heavily colored by their own way of looking at things.

There is something right wing in most adventure movies/tv shows though - ones that rely on action and a strong central hero. The right wing tends to be more individualistic, every man for himself and authoritarian, while the left wing tends to be more inclusive, sociable, and accepting of how we are all connected.

Bryant

[arcadian]

6. Let me ask you.

Do you like the show?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. Yes, but I am quite aware it's fiction, even if others don't.

[arcadian]

11. Explain that statement.

Are you saying that a fictional account can not have a message extolling right-wing ideology? Also, are you only defending '24' because you would never like anything that has been deemed "right-wing"?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

12. Good Lord.

Are you saying that a fictional account can not have a message extolling right-wing ideology?

No, I'm saying that just because a few numbskulls tortured people in real life because of the show doesn't mean everybody else who watches it is a torture-happy sadist.

Also, are you only defending '24' because you would never like anything that has been deemed "right-wing"?

No, I'm defending it because it's a (mostly) well-done show that is too complex to fall into a left/right caricature.

[Chulanowa]

28. Where did he say the show causes torture?

I've seen several people argue that the show doesn't make people go out and torture... and always in response to people who said nothing of the sort. Is there a set of "24" flash cards that people read from when engaging in these discussions?

And the main jist of the show is that evil sand monkey terrorists are all around us and always trying to kill us and gross human rights and civil rights abuses are justified if it stops them. And sometimes a dumb bitch nearly gets eaten by a mountain lion. it's not that complex, really.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. I was referring to some Gitmo guards who did use the show as justfication for torture.

And the main jist of the show is that evil sand monkey terrorists are all around us and always trying to kill us and gross human rights and civil rights abuses are justified if it stops them. And sometimes a dumb bitch nearly gets eaten by a mountain lion. it's not that complex, really.

If you mean "sand monkey" as "Arab," then it's clear you've never watched the show, considering the villains have come from all corners of the globe -- Europe, China, Mexico and Africa, in addition to the Middle East.

Oh, the mountain lion thing from the first season? :rofl:

I was referring to the complexity of Jack Bauer, who doesn't fall into a left/right category and who himself realized that torture doesn't always work (in relation to the show).

[Caliman73]

22. So was "Birth Of A Nation"

So are we to say that just because it was fiction that we can accept the depiction of the Klan as heroic crusaders? Same with 24. They can dress it up all they want, and it may be entertaining and well acted, but it pushes an agenda.

[liberal1973]

15. No

The show is a right wing pos.

[el_bryanto]

4. It is an entertaining enough show at times

Seasons 3 and 5 were good for example. But the lesson is basically "Anything the Government wants to do to protect us is A-OK, particularly torture."

Bryant

[Cleita]

18. Leni Riefenstahl's movies were entertaining and some even consider them

movie art, but she and Goebbels made sure that Hitler's propaganda was spread in them.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

20. Why would Janeane Garofalo and James Cromwell participate in RW propaganda?

[Cleita]

23. Work?

Acting jobs can be hard to get. I'm not criticizing them for working. I am criticizing those who watch who can turn something else on.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

24. Those are both successful actors.

It's not like they went years without working.

[Cleita]

26. Yes, and if you know the system sometimes working on a series that is

popular looks good on their resume. Even popular, established actors can sink into oblivion if they turn down roles. Where did Farrah Fawcett go for so many years after "Charlie's Angels"?

[NaturalHigh]

44. You're criticizing people for watching a TV show?

Gee, how very "progressive" of you.

I don't watch 24 because it just doesn't interest me. I loved The Shield, though, which a lot of people also considered "right-wing". Personally, I just always thought of it as entertainment. It never encouraged me to go beat down a drug dealer or rob a money-laundering ring.

[Cleita]

48. Progressivism is activism and activism is boycotting those things that you

think are done wrong. It has nothing to do with beating anyone.

[Greyhound]

34. They're entertainers first and foremost and the first rule is work while you can.

Kiefer's dad has made an incredible career out of doing anything that paid, even Lawrence Olivier made some horrible schlock during his film career.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. Neither of them were hurting for work, and they came in after several seasons had aired.

So if the RW ideology was so apparent and offensive, they could have easily gone somewhere else for work.

[Greyhound]

43. I think you've missed the point. The Tim Robbins/Susan Sarandon performers are

rare to the point of being nearly unique.

It's show BUSINESS!! When somebody back a truck full of cash up to their door and says "if you do this show, it's yours", the answer is yes.

Would Kelsey Grammer turn down another sitcom written by Aaron Sorkin? Of course not.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

45. No, I didn't miss the point.

Garofalo and Cromwell are not the average liberal actors. While they may not be as hugely successful as Robbins or Sarandon, their political principles are equally as strong, and I have a hard time believing they would cozy up to an (ostensibly) RW show, regardless of the money involved.

[Greyhound]

50. Then you just don't know the industry.

Also consider that money is not the primary motivation for performers. Adulation is the most powerful narcotic known to man. Do you think that Lawrence Olivier did "Clash of the Titans" because he needed the money, or because it was great cinema?
:think:
The show is about the dumbest crap I've ever seen. Badly written and utterly dependent on the most impossible coincidences to get through the convoluted plots.

[JackRiddler]

36. Paycheck, probably - Why is this question relevant?

Can you form your own opinions, or will you just take on those you're (perhaps falsely) assuming Garafalo and Cromwell might have?

Did you know Charlton Heston starred in a lot of funky SF movies critical of America, like Planet of the Apes?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. Cromwell and Garofalo are arch-liberals.

I'm not assuming that they are -- it's a known fact that they're hardcore lefties.

Can you form your own opinions, or will you just take on those you're (perhaps falsely) assuming Garafalo and Cromwell might have?

Can you not sound like a dick and avoid making things up?

[JackRiddler]

52. You're still assuming what their opinions on 24 are, and anyway, it's irrelevant

"Arch" liberals or no (and I'm aware of both), they're working, not politicking. Even Cromwell has to look for roles, and when was the last time you saw Garofalo in anything?

Look, you like 24. It's all right. We all have our vices. You don't need to rationalize it as a progressive show. You can go ahead and like it.

And I'm sorry. Sooner or later the stupid brings out the dick in me. Won't happen again.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

53. It's not a "vice," and I never claimed it was progressive.

And I don't need your fucking permission to watch it.

And the irony of a 9/11 "truth" nut lecturing me about what I do with my free time is hilarious.

[JackRiddler]

56. That's shooting for a record for fallacies per word.

Of course you don't need anyone's permission, which is a bizarre non-sequitir as no one remotely implied it.

Maybe you should just stop seeking confirmation for your bad taste on this thread.

And seriously: Why would I ever lecture you?! Toying with you is so much more fun.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

58. "You can go ahead and like it" seems pretty clear.

Then you claimed I said the show was progressive when I never said anything of the sort.

Go choke on some tinfoil, asshole.

[JackRiddler]

59. Language, sir...

What does your sudden resort to ad hominem signify?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

60. If you're offended by "bad" language, I suggest you get out more.

Sans tinfoil hat, of course.

I corrected your mistaken assumptions about me, but it fell on deaf ears, apparently. And it was you who began acting like a prick, so don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[JackRiddler]

61. Oh, I can take it...

Your little train wreck is more fun to watch than 24!

:yourock: :patriot:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. I thought chemtrails and controlled demolitions were your thing.

Ironically, they're about as real as "24" is.

[JackRiddler]

65. You don't know shit and that's a fact.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

67. Whoops, I struck a nerve.

CHEMTRAILS!!!!111 DARKSIDED!!!11 GARGOYLES!!!!!111 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[JackRiddler]

68. It's obvious you wouldn't know where to find a nerve.

But your serial shift from one basic blunder of perception to the next does get tedious, so the joke's over.

Remember: Last one to post in this thread wins!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. Is the prize eating Alex Jones' table scraps?

I'll let you post last because you want it much more than I do.

[surrealAmerican]

62. The other message that's suspect here is:

..."torture is a means of obtaining accurate information". The more people believe that, the more likely they are to support our government's torture.

[el_bryanto]

73. That's a really good point

I've always wished they would do an episode where torture totally didn't work.

Come to think of it in Season 4 (the All Torture Season), they did do a storyline where a CTU Analyst was tortured because she was falsely accused of being a mole. And then after it was discovered that she was being tortured wrongfully, she is going home when she is stopped by current boss of the CTU who says she need her. She says "well, hey I was just tortured so maybe I'll take a pass, unless. . ." The head of CTU agrees to her demands and she sticks around. But as a power hungry woman she will get her just deserts (torture isn't enough). So when the head of CTU's daughter kills herself (in an annoying storyline), someone else is brought in to run CTU. Miss tortured 2005 goes and tells her of the deal she has, and she's summarily fired.

The lesson my friends, if you are tortured wrongfully know that American has your best interests in heart. Don't threaten to sue or try to gain personally from your experience.

Bryant

[billyoc]

9. Funniest sitcom I've ever seen.

[Cleita]

13. Don't you mean saloon? I'm sure Surnow thinks it's a salon, where

intellectuals meet to discuss life and politics, however, if Rush is one of its denizens I can imagine the rest are of his intellectual caliber, which makes it into a smelly old saloon that stinks of urine on the floor. He's a RW shit. I don't watch the show. It's too obvious what he's trying to peddle.

[LeftinOH]

14. Limbaugh had the whole cast (minus Kiefer) at the Heritage Foundation

..and kissed the leading lady on the lips (!).. a year ago or more; I saw it on C-Span. -Never seen an episode.

[liberal1973]

17. A typical right wing douche bag

[Democrats_win]

19. In our culture of fear no one examines if the show or this "man" is right.

Nukes in NY city? May be very difficult to deliver. It is easier to detect than other types of bombs. It would not be as damaging as the name implies. A suit-case nuke would be too small to do a lot of damage. Sarin gas would probably be worse. Wasn't the anthrax used against us manufactured by the military? What good are they doing if they cause the problem?

Why do they treat terror so urgently when so many Americans die of passive dangers like corporate negligence? Nothing--NOTHING--is done to stop this. Trillions are spent to stop terrorism. Is it because it challenges the manliness of our eunuchs in Washington. You betcha.

[seemslikeadream]

21. 24 is where Gitmo guys got the torture idea

[nxylas]

29. It's certainly where their enablers get their ideas

Every defense of Gitmo trots out the same argument: "If there was a nucular (sic) bomb ticking away in an American city and the only way to find out where was to torture...." That's straight out of 24.

[JHB]

25. It has the "Dirty Harry" disease...

...where we know "our heroes" are right (or at least never be horribly, unforgivably wrong) because they have the power of The Script.

[nxylas]

31. Except that Dirty Harry was directed by a liberal

Don Siegel deliberately tempered the fascism of John Milius's script and allowed for some moral ambiguity to make us question whether Harry Callahan's actions really were always justified.

[spanone]

37. any friend of rush limpballs must be a prick

[Mari333]

39. surnow is one of those guys with a teeny penii

never worked a day in his life. trust fund baby type. if he were sent to the front lines in any war he would crap all over himself.
kind of like rush. just a nobody living a nobody dream.

[LanternWaste]

46. Although I don't watch the show...

Although I don't watch the show, it seems like another good example of why we separate the art from the artist. I imagine if I never did that, I be very bored and very starved of some of my more visceral and guilty reading pleasures.



As an aside, I have noticed that in the threads re: 24, the same arguments used to denounce the show are the ones "fundies" use to denounce violent video games and gangster rap...

[byrok]

47. This season's scripts

are focusing on corrupt high level officials in the white house. Also, whether or not torture can be justified. I watch the show because I like action films, like the Die Hard films. I'm able to separate my beliefs from things that I find fanciful and entertaining. It's just TV.

Besides, my wife and I laugh every time we point out a blatant right wing line or move.

Know your enemy.

[Cleita]

49. And which White House would that be, Clinton's or Bush's? Some how I have

a feeling it might be Clinton's. Remember the first season had a black President who was honorable, but whose wife was a Lady Macbeth, however, he never stopped the torture meme. It seemed to be okay to him.

[arcadian]

51. Wow so the script writers can see the writing on the wall

and tailor their show for an audience that is slightly less conservative than before as indicated by the Democrats victory in this past election? Amazing.

[RamboLiberal]

54. Geez - can't we give this topic a rest already

Those of us who like the show knows who was a producer. We also know that idiots in the RW use the show to justify their methods in real life. And it seems that the government abuse and schemes in the show go right over their head.

No minds are being changed here. Some DU'ers like the show and will go on watching it, and some of you hate the show and will never watch it.

It's in its 7th season. It won't go on much longer. And it's just a friggin' TV show. Give it a rest already!

[arcadian]

55. Yeah and 'Triumph of the Will' was just a movie.

Simple minds :eyes:

[LanternWaste]

64. And Grand Theft Auto: Vice City is "just" a game...

And Grand Theft Auto: Vice City is "just" a game...

[JackRiddler]

66. Actually a much cooler and more sophisticated work than "24"

[LanternWaste]

70. As they're both effectual pablum for the masses

As they're both effectual pablum for the masses, marketed very well to their target demographics-- and not very enjoyable at that, I've avoided them both after initial introductions...

[JackRiddler]

72. Just being sarcastic...

and basically in agreement with you. Any impression I'd have of "GTA" or any other post-Pacman game would come from commercials or the press. If I had to spend 24 hours with GTA or a season of 24, the choice would be easy.

[LanternWaste]

74. Me too.

"Just being sarcastic..."
Me too, difference being-- I'm not very good at it.



What I appear to be seeing with the majority of criticism of 24 is fundamentally the same criticism the Fundies use against violent video games and gangster rap. It's a bit odd to these baby blues...




crap-- on edit: "I'm *not* very good at it..." :blush: Haven't read any response yet (if any). Won't for a while, just in case what came across as me being a jerk tempted you to respond in kind...