Autistic girl, 8, cuffed after school scuffle - refused to take off her beloved "cow costume"

[The Straight Story]

Autistic girl, 8, cuffed after school scuffle
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 | 10:05 AM
ABCNews SARAH NETTER

The mother of an 8-year-old autistic girl who was arrested after a scuffle with her teachers said it was horrifying to watch her daughter be led away in handcuffs from her northern Idaho elementary school.

Police in Bonner County, Idaho, charged the girl, Evelyn Towry, with battery after the arrest Friday at Kootenai Elementary School.

Even though prosecutors dismissed the case Tuesday, the family is considering legal action against the school. They say their daughter was physically restrained to the point of causing bruises and is now tormented by memories of the incident.

Spring Towry said she got to the school Friday just in time to see 54-pound Evelyn -- who was diagnosed at age 5 with Asperger's Syndrome, a high functioning form of autism -- being walked to a police car with two officers at her side.

"She started screaming 'Mommy, I don't want to go! What are batteries? What are batteries?'" Towry said. "She didn't even know what she was arrested for."

Towry, who lives in Ponderay, said Evelyn told her that she had been refused entry into a school Christmas party that had been delayed until after the holidays because of a string of snow days, because she refused to take off her beloved "cow costume" -- a hoodie with cow ears and a tail.

Towry said Evelyn, who loves Spongebob Squarepants, told her she was put in a separate classroom away from the party, but when she tried to leave, the teachers told her to stay put. Evelyn did not listen, Towry said, and the adults physically restrained her.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=6598617

[FLAprogressive]

1. Look at the state that this took place in......

....and you'll see part of the reason why this happened. What a shame.

[ulysses]

2. more info needed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Yep

It's another of those 'My Kid Got in Trouble at School So I am Calling the Media' stories.

I was turned off right away when I saw they are calling an Aspergers kid autistic. I know, technically it's correct, but there is a world of difference between Apergers and full blown autism.

[ulysses]

10. and she's wearing a cow costume!

Kids in cow costumes never do things that require that they be restrained. Everyone knows that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. And they should be allowed to assault anyone they want

Cause after all, an Aspergers kid in a cow costume can do no wrong. :)

[High Plains]

19. Oh, Jesus Christ! You wanna support arresting a sick 8-year-old girl?

Did you say you were a teacher? Maybe you should think about a career change. I hear there are jobs in law enforcement.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. I support it.

The kid attacked the staff. Had to be forcibly restrained, and the police called. The school, I'm guessing, isn't equipped with the sort of padded rooms used to handle these kinds of things, and I'm guessing the mother wasn't immediately available.

So, yeah, let the police handle it. Let them and everybody else file a proper report. For when the next time the kid attacks somebody.

[DesertRat]

28. I'm a special ed. teacher

You don't need a "padded room" to restrain a 54 lb. 8 year old.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. If the child is physically violent you do.

For the protection of both the staff and the kid.

[DesertRat]

36. I've taught chidren with behavioral disabilities

from preschool through 8th graders over the past 30 years. None of the staff I've worked with have ever left a bruise and I've never seen a "padded room" in a public school.

Edit: I have been bruised and bitten by students.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Did you work with children who regularly punched you?

Kicked you? Threw books and desks at you? Urinated on you? Groped you? On a daily basis?

There are such children. There are such schools that handle those children. And the good ones are equipped with padded rooms.

[DesertRat]

46. Again...I've never seen a padded room in any PUBLIC school.

I know they exist in private settings. We've had students who were a danger to themselves and others on a regular basis who we had to refer to other settings.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. OK then.

"We've had students who were a danger to themselves and others on a regular basis who we had to refer to other settings."

This child was a danger to herself and others. And would have been one of those students who needs referral to one of those other settings, assuming such isn't available in district.

[northernlights]

275. oh spare me. I'm 120 pounds and all by myself

I've been able to handle and deal with a panicked, kicking, rearing, striking, fighting, 2 year old, 600 pound horse... without calling the cops and having her cuffed. And without help from her mother, breeder, or any other horse person to hobble or in any way restrain her.

And although it would have been a nice and helpful luxury to have room that could hold her, the fact is I was able to handle her and the situation, and she's ended up a lot less panicky, fearful or aggressive as a result.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. They have padded rooms in my area

Not at every school but they have a program where kids who outburst like this are taken to a building where there is a padded room and they are put there until they calm down. No none of my kids have ever had to go but the padded room is there. And from what I hear, it is quite busy.

[lostnfound]

268. 54 pounds. What a bunch of wussy adults.

I would have thought someone who goes by the alias Bornaginhooligan would be more open to other solutions to a little chaos instead of seeking refuge in the police state apparatus, but on the other hand, I've been reading a while so nothing surprises me.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. If your kid attacked me...

you'd have found yourself in court.

[LittleClarkie]

76. I see nothing in the report to indicate the kid did much more than try to leave

Her teachers tried to stop her physically, and she fought back. They initiated the contact, not her.

Until you get more info, how about not taking one side over the other quite yet, eh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. The police report says the girl hit, kicked, and spat on the staff.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the staff aren't going to go around grabbing children just for the hell of it.

"Until you get more info, how about not taking one side over the other quite yet, eh?"

I was thinking of the same thing about you. All this story is is the mother's side, and she can gab all she want. While the school's restricted to confidentiality on the matter.

[liberalhistorian]

133. Yes, and the police report is gonna go by what

the Cover Your Ass admins and teachers tell them, period. Of course they're going to make it look better for them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Ah, a conspiracy theory.

Yes, the police are conspiring with the teachers in order to get a little autistic girl.

It all makes so much sense.

[tuckessee]

362. Nah, they conspire to cover their asses.

Just tryin' to save their careers and avoid lawsuits.

It happens all the time.

[book_worm]

175. It's always the teachers and admin. who are in the wrong and never the child.

I'm glad the school decided they couldn't handle the situation and called in the police. I'm sure they had provocation.

[liberalhistorian]

221. Yes, in this case, they WERE in the wrong.

This was not a teenager, this was an eight-year-old CHILD and the school handled in wrong from beginning to end. First, by making a big fuss over the stupid fucking cow hoodie, then putting her in a separate room by herself, excluding her from the party she knew was happening, and without anything else for her to do or having someone with her, then getting physical with HER when she tried to do what a lot of kids would do, which is leave the room. All the way down the line, the ADULTS were the idiots who dropped the ball. And yeah, calling the cops on a child is pathetic.

My parents were both teachers and you won't find a more committed defender of teachers with me, but they don't get a blank check. And my parents would be the first to agree, they'd be appalled at the pathetic stupidity displayed by these teachers and administrators. They taught for forty years, so they know what they're talking about.

[NashVegas]

87. Did the Report Not Include This?

Bonner County Police Lt. Ror Lakewold said the police report indicated the child -- who he declined to name because of her age -- "hit, kicked and spit on teachers."

Lakewold said there was also a complaint that the child grabbed a teacher in a "sexually sensitive place," not in a sexual way, but to cause pain.

Towry said that complaint stemmed from Evelyn pinching her teacher's breast, but she believes Evelyn wasn't aiming for any spot in particular. She was just fighting to be let loose.

Being assaulted shouldn't be in the description of a teachers' job.

[LittleClarkie]

93. However it's possible the teacher escalated a situation that could have been handled differently

say perhaps if the teacher hadn't decided to restrain the child.

I'm just thinking the situation could have been handled better, is all.

[Ilsa]

335. I tend to agree with you. Knowing how to manage

these situations is the key, and teachers need to be trained for them.

My 12 yo son is autistic. In the past he has been prone to striking out, hitting, biting, and kicking. He is handling frustration much better now, but never, ever has the school called the cops on him. And this is a thin, tall, wirey, strong child.

Why haven't they called the cops?
1. They know how to manage the situation;
2. they know that calling cops will only make it worse for everyone.

[eShirl]

372. I agree, it sounds like the teachers in that school never got the necessary training in behavior

management -- de-escalating a situation before it snowballs into an incident

I had such training back when I was working with developmentally disabled adults with severe behavioral issues. I've de-escalated several, much potentially worse situations than the one described in this news story.

[reggie the dog]

278. it's not assault when kids hit you

sorry, I am a teacher, and I see a big difference between an 8 year old kid, with the mentality of an 8 year old, and a 14 year old. A 14 year old should be responsable enough to not try to brawl their teachers, 8 year olds reason like little kids.

[merh]

289. And neither should "free to assault"

that teacher had no right to put his/her hands on that child, the restraining of the child was the assault.

At 8 a child doesn't have the mens re to commit a crime, they don't understand the nature of their acts - especially a special needs child.

The adults had the mens re, they know the difference between right and wrong and for the love of god, they were the adults.

[dana_b]

307. I agree that they could have handled this much better

it's really stupid - what was the big deal about the cow costume? let her wear it!

Anyway, the reason I responded to you is when you say "that teacher has no right to put his/her hands on that child", do you mean in relation to the restraining or ever?
I worked with special needs kids as a teacher's aide and we had to take kids by the hand all the time. I never wrapped my arms around a kid but did have to "catch" a kid once who was running around the playground and refused to go in after recess. I got him by the hand and brought him in. That was technically restraining him. Just curious what you think because truthfully I really had no other way of getting him inside. He was a 7 y.o. with the comprehension of a 3 y.o.

[merh]

315. What you describe would be appropriate for the child's safety

it would not have been responsible of you to let the child wander off. You didn't restrain as much as you guided. I know, you are wondering if I am just playing with words here. Your intent was to guide the child and your purpose was to protect the child. You were not grabbing his arm to punish but to do what you were assigned to do, to ensure that all children were accounted for and safe. It has a great deal to do with intent and purpose. In grabbing, did you bruise?

What the teachers in this instance did was beyond "child safety" - it wasn't intended to protect the child but to punish the child and to continue to punish the child. Again, when were the parents notified?

And they took restraint beyond simple restraint to child abuse.

-------------------
Towry said her daughter demonstrated for her how she was held down by her arms and legs. And Towry videotaped the thumb-sized bruises she says were left on Evelyn's legs from the incident.

"She said 'I was very scared,'" Towry said. "She told me she was being hurt."
------------------

This child is scared and may never trust teachers again.

[dana_b]

321. got it

I agree and yes, it was hand holding and no bruising.

This whole situation is crazy. These teachers didn't know enough to either call the mom or to just let her wear the hoodie. They shouldn't be doing this job and, imo, the wrong person was charged in this case.

[merh]

326. I hope the parents move that child to a better school.

I hope the school system improves its policies and fires that teacher that abused that child.

[reggie the dog]

344. If their kid attacked me

I would have accepted an apology, no court case would have been filed even if there was no apology.

[liberalhistorian]

100. Bullshit. The confrontive, combative teacher was

the one who escalated it and should have damn well known better. The ONLY time my teenage aspie son EVER had any problems with teachers throughout the years, and he's had many, was one particular teacher who simply wouldn't listen as to how best to handle him and many of her other students. She was one of those legalistic, confrontive types who think they know everything so no one can tell them differently, who don't listen, and who believe there's only one way to handle EVERY SINGLE CHILD, that there are no differences in children. She was the only teacher who kept having trouble with a lot of students and could never figure out why she was the only teacher who had such trouble and the other teachers did not, even though she was told over and over and over and over again.

I finally quit returning her fucking messages, since every single thing my son said and did was "wrong" (he's never ever been violent or attacked anyone, students or teachers) and needed to be "discussed" and "dealt with." EVERY fucking day she'd call and I finally quit talking to her. None of my son's many, many other teachers have ever had any such problems with him. She refused to recognize that legalism does NOT work and that there really ARE differences in children, that they cannot be all dealt with the exact same way. This teacher was an adult and should have damn well known better than to be so ridiculously escalative with an EIGHT year old over a fucking goddamned shirt. And the police should never have been involved in the first place, you call the parents and have them take the child home. Period.

I know your type of teacher. The type who can't handle any differences at all, who doesn't understand at all the difficulties kids with any kind of disabilities face, the legalistic rigid types. Oh, yes, I know your type all too well. And so do my parents, who are retired teachers and who spent forty years dealing with teachers like you and hated it.

[earth mom]

107. Very well stated! Let's stop putting teachers on pedestals especially when they are so ignorant

about Autism and how to actually deal with these kids!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Oh, were you there?

No? Well then I'll have to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who were.

"The ONLY time my teenage aspie son EVER had any problems with teachers throughout the years, and he's had many, was one particular teacher who simply wouldn't listen as to how best to handle him and many of her other students."

Your aspie son is irrelevant to the situation. You can't project your kid's behaviour on to any other kid, just because they're an aspie.

"She was one of those legalistic, confrontive types who think they know everything so no one can tell them differently, who don't listen, and who believe there's only one way to handle EVERY SINGLE CHILD, that there are no differences in children."

Now you're projecting in an entirely different sort of way.

[earth mom]

112. Why don't you admit you hate kids with Autism and get it over with?

:grr:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. LOL

:rofl:

[earth mom]

115. You've proved it with every post you have made on this thread. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. I'll never forgive autistic people for killing Jesus.

[liberalhistorian]

120. Somehow I don't think you were there, either, and yet

you know everything about this case, and that doesn't stop YOU from generalizing and projecting all of your true feelings about kids with disabilities, does it? Methink my parents and I have a helluva lot more experience and knowledge than you in these kinds of things. If it were up to you, you'd simply throw behaviorally disabled kids away so you wouldn't have to be bothered with anyone "different." Neuroconformity at its best, or should I say, worst.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. I'm basing this on what's in the police report.

"doesn't stop YOU from generalizing and projecting all of your true feelings about kids with disabilities"

I'm not generalizing or projecting anything on any kids with disabilities.

I'm only talking about this kid, in specific. And I'm her disability may have nothing to do with her behaviour whatsoever.

"If it were up to you, you'd simply throw behaviorally disabled kids away so you wouldn't have to be bothered with anyone "different.""

I think kids with disabilities should be placed where they can be helped most effectively. Obviously, this school isn't suited for this student.

[liberalhistorian]

131. Jesus Christ, you obviously have NO understanding of

Asperger's, or children in general, whatsoever. I stand by my statement that you are one of these legalistic teachers who refuse to recognize differences in children and who think ALL children are the same and should ALL be handled the same. Putting a child in a room by herself and excluding her from a party, when she knows the party is going on, is bad enough and cruel enough. But an aspie child is going to especially have difficulty dealing with it. And instead of trying to help her understand things, they physically restrained her when she was trying to leave the room, all because of a fucking cow hoodie. The adults were the idiots in this case.

[reggie the dog]

279. the kid threw a tantrum

the police report uses words like "battery" and "sexual area" to mean the kid swung her hands, kicked her feet, and pinched the adults trying to restrain her. How in the hell can you condone busting an 8 year old for this. How many fistfights did you get in when you were in grade school? Did you go to jail or did you go the principals office and then lose recess for a week?

[Heathen57]

186. I was there when my son's

fifth grade teacher pulled on his arm so hard that she left bruises in the shape of her hand and pulled his arm out of the socket! We were coming to get him early and turned the corner of the hall to see this happen.

His crime? Not moving fast enough. He has ADHD (something I'm sure you don't believe in, the teacher didn't) and had asked to go to the Special Ed room (and teacher) so he could study. She decided that he needed to go to the principal's office instead. He was trying to get to the Special Ed room when we came around the corner.

It took everything my wife had to keep me from assaulting her. Her excuse was that he was just a 'bad kid'. We called police and pressed charges, but she got off with some counseling.

If I would have been as aware as I am now, I would have sued that school and the teacher. I also would have went to the media. I wish I would have because she was right back there the next year. Our daughter was supposed to have her, but we complained enough and with the help of the special ed teacher, got her changed.


But from what you have said, you seem to believe that whatever the teachers do is needed and the children are always at fault. Perhaps we should go back to the time when kids were rapped on the knuckles with rulers, made fun of, and treated with disrespect because of disabilities. I feel like that is what you are advocating. If not, then I apologize, but your backing the teachers and the derision of any parent who stands up for their child, makes me think I am correct.

[Heathen57]

206. There are teachers like that

legalistic and so sure they are always right. The poster you were replying to was correct. Her experiences with her son shows that she understands what an aspie child is and how they will probably react in a given situation. I'm sure she would have a better idea of how things went down according to the behavior of her own and others with the same problem.

The mother in the story should monitor that class, every day if need be, to find out just how she treats the students. It would help her case at the most, and it might just save another child from being hauled off in handcuffs.

[bread_and_roses]

162. Exactly. And what the hell is wrong with us that we can't handle a KINDERGARTNER making animal

noises and "stomping her feet?" Honest to goddess, the lack of toleration any more for the differing developmental levels among very young children is insane. What we expect of Kindergarden and 1st grade children is insane.

Yes, the report said that the child hit and kicked - but from the account, that came AFTER she was restrained - a frightening thing in itself. What the hell were they thinking, keeping the kid out of a PARTY because she was wearing a decorated hoodie? The whole story reeks of the ineptitude of the adults in the situation.

I don't have the temperment to work with young children, but I once worked in an OMRDD group home for adults. I saw the same thing there a number of times - inept, authoritarian, little Hitler staff creating a situation out of their own compulsion to exercise absolute control, escalating the resulting resistance, and ending up in a restraint "incident."

[liberalhistorian]

130. Maybe she shouldn't have been excluded from

the party and put in a room by herself, when she knew the party was going on and she was excluded. Maybe they should have at least tried to have something else for her to do when she knew everyone was having fun at a party and she wasn't included. Maybe they shouldn't have thrown an exclusion fit over a fucking cow hoodie, for Christ's sake. THAT was cruel to begin with, what the FUCK difference did it make if she wore the damn thing? She wasn't a teenager, she was EIGHT YEARS OLD and put in a room by herself. It was only after she tried to leave the room, where she'd been left by HERSELF, that they FIRST physically restrained her from leaving, that she got angry and fought against it. Why in the HELL didn't they at least have someone with her instead of leaving her all alone in a room by herself when she knew a party was going on? The idiotic adults are the ones at fault here, period.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. That's the teacher's perogative.

I'm guessing the teacher kindly asked her to remove the hoodie, she erupted uncontrolably, and the decision to keep her out of the party after she was misbehaving.

That just plain makes more sense.

[CraftyGal]

183. I am wondering if the young girl had been given an explanation as to why she wasn't allowed to go

to the party? I look at the picture of the young girl in this video. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6640478&page=1">ABC News.


She was told that she had to have the tail tucked in and the ears pinned sown in order to go to the party. It is a jacket that has ears, spots and a tail. Similar to many of the other little jackets and princesses outfits out today. Mom even said she doesn't condone her daughters behavior. The school released a statement saying that the parents, support agencies and police would be contacted if there were issues of violence. Mos says she was unaware of this and had never signed a contract. Watch the video, it is very enlightening.

CraftyGal

[Heathen57]

197. Bornaginhooligan, why don't you just issue teachers

tasers and then when a child is 'uncontrollable' (like talking in class or staring out the window) s/he can zap them into line with 600,000 volts? After a few of them are writhing on the floor and wetting their pants, the rest of the class will behave.

I've seen teachers like this one. "Kindly asked her to remove the hoodie" would be the last thing she would do. The ones I've seen would order the child remove it, and then physically put her in a room by herself because the child 'questioned her authority'. They resort to physical violence (which to a girl with her problems would see restraining as) as the first solution, not the last.

I have respect for the teachers who try. The ones who work with the children. I don't have any tolerance for the bad ones though. And you seem to ignore that there are those out there, and this one could just be one of them. Putting a child in isolation because she is wearing a hoodie is not good teaching.

[liberalhistorian]

223. That's just it, you're "guessing". You're automatically

assuming that she "kindly asked", doing the very same thing you accuse the rest of us of doing. You have no way of knowing if that's what she did and, knowing teachers like that, chances are she probably didn't. You're only assuming that she "erupted uncontrollably", but, again, you don't know that. Not all teachers are correct all the time and not all students are always wrong.

This teacher may have already had misperceptions and a bias about her Asperger's and treated her accordingly without even probably realizing it. There have been many studies, and I remember several of them from my own classes, showing that teachers quite often will treat learning disabled, autistic and similar behaviourally-disabled students disdainfully without even knowing or recognizing it; some have an out and out open bias. I experienced that myself throughout my school years with my own learning disability.

My teacher parents would be the first to say that it's important to "pick your battles." They absolutely hated legalism and the kinds of teachers who employed it. In this case, the teacher knew how important the hoodie was to the child and chose to disregard that; I have no idea what the fuck the big deal was her wearing the thing to a party. What in the HELL was the big deal? The teacher was the one who escalated it and chose to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[merh]

258. And who sent the child to school in the hoodie?

The parent.

Looks like she lived in a cold climate, should she be expected to be cold because the teacher didn't like the ears and the tail on the hoodie?

Is there some dress code that the parent - the adult responsible for the minor child - violated? Did the school call the parents and ask them to bring a change of clothes or to come take the child home because of the dress code violation?

Was there even a dress code or a teacher being an ass, not liking a hoodie is one hell of a reason to emotional torture a child. And yes, keeping a special needs child away from a party with the other children is emotional torture.

The ADULTS were the teachers, they should have handled it like adults and not have created the conditions that allowed the situation to escalate out of control.

I'd press charges of assault against the teachers (adults abusing children is never cool) and I'd sue the school and the cops. To handcuff and arrest an 8 year old over a friggin hoodie, to book a child into juve detention when the rules of the facility don't allow for children under 10 - yeah, I'd sue them.

And what gets me is the adults broke the rules and you think the child is the one worthy of punishment and should have understood.

[reggie the dog]

281. for the love of dog

fucking let the special ed kid wear the damn cow hoodie. It's winter, it's cold, do we really think her cow hoodie is a gang sign? (hats are forbidden because they are gang signs).

[Crunchy Frog]

264. Well gosh, what a surprise that is.

:sarcasm:

[kiranon]

320. Shows no understanding of autism by the school, the police and so many others.

Thank your lucky stars that you and your children or siblings if you have any do not have autism. This was an assault on a child and those involved should be sued. In many ways people with autism are so much kinder and loving than the so called "neurotypicals" who believe that there way is the only way. Children with disabilities need to be respected and understood. Approaching them in a calm manner works. Threatening them or yelling at them or touching them does not. What harm is there in a beloved cow costume. This behavior harms no one. But touch an autistic child or try to push or move them and they can go wild from the assault on them (which is how they perceive it) and the sensory issues and the fear that such behavior causes. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge of special education would know how to safely restrain an autistic child. These people clearly did not. And, yes, I have two children with autism who are adopted and I think they are the best people on the planet. And, if they want to wear a costume, they get to. After a bit, they take it off or change to something else and we all move on. Celebrate the differences that we all have rather than expect the same from everyone which would be, in my opinion, incredibly boring.

[ulysses]

27. and your experience in the area is...

?

Arresting an 8-year-old child with autism isn't the best of all possible worlds, no, but I'd like to hear more of what went on before passing judgment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. I want more information

before I make a decision about this situation. To automatically assume the school was wrong is ignorant and reactionary. For one thing, in my state, we are required BY LAW to notify the police when ANYONE assaults ANYONE at school. And last time I checked, police decide whether to arrest or not. So blaming that on the school is also ignorant.

I am however ready to call you an ass for suggesting I need a career change.

[ulysses]

34. I'm developing a theory

which states that the less a person knows about what you do on a daily basis, the more likely they are to attack you for what you do on a daily basis. Stunning, I know.

[DainBramaged]

158. You aren't the only one working on that theory.

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. I have an open question for you or Born2blib or anyone who teaches special ed.

Can you imagine a situation in your classroom in which a disagreement over an 8 year old's sweatshirt that escalates to handcuffs and arrest, would be characterized as appropriate, necessary or unavoidable?

We're all a product of our background, myself included. Because of that background, what I'm hearing sounds very much like the rationalisations that police officers use when one of their own has done something stupid. "We weren't there, we need more information".

I think the story gives me pretty much all the information I need to form an opinion.

[Pithlet]

204. I've asked the question

Just what sort of information could be missing that would justify this, and it hasn't been answered. Perhaps that would clarify their position. Just why couldn't this have been handled more like, say, how proud patriot's school would handle it as she states here? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4844929&mesg_id=4846227

I'm with you, though. I think there are plenty of clues that point to royal fuck up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

211. The school's statement is missing

This article reports Mom's version of what happened in the classroom. It would help to hear from the teacher(s).

[Pithlet]

216. Maybe you could guess as to some possible scenarios.

What could an 8 year old girl with Aspergers do that would warrant arrest and charges? Some examples, maybe?

[merh]

252. What is most outrageous about this story is an 8 year old child

was punished because her mother allowed her to go to school in a cow hoodie.

Was there some dress code the mother violated?

Did the school contact the mother and advise her that she needed to bring a change of jacket or shirt?

For the love of god - 8 years old - you don't handcuff an 8 year old.

I'm 5'2" and faced down a 290 lb adult with the mind of a child before, stood face to face with her when officers wanted to taze and beat her - you can talk people down, you don't have to resort to violent assaults and the teacher putting his/her hands on the child is the first assault.

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. Are you asking if I think this could happen in my classroom?

My answer is I hope not.

Would I let a situation like this escalate in my classroom? No. I believe in picking my battles with kids and this one is not a battle I would choose.

However I could never guarantee that a child will never have a meltdown or an outburst in my class because they have been known to happen without provocation and sadly I have had a few in my room. I described one somewhere in this thread.

All I can do is build trust with my kids and help them feel safe while they are under my care. But I have no control over what happens to them when they are not in school and many are at risk for assault and abuse, which can cause emotional stress which leads to unpredictable outbursts.

Hope that answers your question :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

327. Outbursts happen. No one expects educators to prevent them.

I just think that the jury isn't out on whether this outburst was managed appropriately.

Thanks, FWIW, special ed teachers in general are the good guys. :)

[sam sarrha]

377. what if it is the school personnel doing the assaulting and covering it up by blaming the child when

it gets out of hand..??

[Hannah Bell]

165. "assault" ? an 8-year old?

cowering in fear, here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. In the last 10 years I have taught

a 9 year old arsonist, a 10 year old burglar, a 9 year old batterer who wanted to kill his mother and an 8 year old car thief.

All good kids by the way who were caught up in bad situations.

And no I wasn't scared of them.

[Sonicmedusa]

254. What did you "teach" them?

Arson, burglery, abuse, and matricide?

Sorry about you not "learning" anything from them.

Good thing you "taught" them a thing or two, though.

I don't want no 8-year-old criminal aspies fucking with me. No way, no how.

Then again, maybe these humans you "taught" weren't even anywhere in the spectrum.

Thanks for your input any way.

[juno jones]

284. replied in wrong place

[Pithlet]

121. I can't imagine what kind of info missing

that would justify involving the police and handcuffs. Parents should have been called long before then.


I am so disappointed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Meh.

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. Sad. n/t

[JanMichael]

4. So, the grownups couldn't handle a "cow" hoodie on an 8 year old.

I hope the teachers, Principal, and police officers are laying in bed FUCKING DYING OF EMBARRASSMENT this evening.

That is all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Looks like they handled it to me.

[proud patriot]

15. unbelievable .. I work at a school for delayed kids

We have a couple of Autism classes , those kids can be very difficult .

This whole thing was handled poorly by the adults involved they should
be embarrassed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Are your delayed kids physically violent?

Then you should be trained on how to physically restrain children.

So, PP, what, exactly, do you think the staff and police did wrong?

[griffi94]

38. i can only speak for myself

but my autistic 14 year old has been known to react violently. i've noticed that you can't meet force with force and expect that to work.
i'd say this got out of hand because of the actions of the persons involved who weren't 8 years old and didn't have aspergers.
a pissing contest with an autistic 8 year old over a cow hoodie being worn to a school x-mas party is a pretty silly battle to fight.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. A cow hoodie is irrelevant.

The child hitting, kicking, and spitting on the staff is not.

[griffi94]

59. while i agree that some action needed to be taken

i think the staff over reacted. i don't know how it works where you live but my sons teachers and aides are trained to restrain and control him without the handcuffs and squad car.
my son has become violent with his teachers before we came up with a better way to control him other than meeting force with force, and it's worked pretty well so far..i think the adults over reacted and got sucked into a pissing contest with an autistic 8 year old, apparently over a hoodie. that's just not a battle worth fighting.
my son once wore an oven mitt on his right hand for 4 days, it didn't cause enough of a distraction to warrant a fight. after 4 days
i managed to replace the oven mitt with potholders....problem solved.

[Kajsa]

86. Refusing her entry to the party

brought on that behavior.

Emphasis on 'refuse entry'.
Because she worn a hoodie?!?

No compromise, no ' you can wear it for another 10-15 minutes,
then please take it off, NO!-friggin do it or else!!

Yeah, THAT always works well with autistic children.

:sarcasm:

[lolly]

244. What kind of kid's party was it?

Why did anyone give a damn if she wore a "cow hoody?"

Not exactly gangsta stuff.

Sounds like it was her security blankie or wooby or whatever. And I can't, in any stretch of my imagination, figure out why any teacher would care about an 8 year old wearing it to a school party.

That's just pissy and controlling.

[Kajsa]

310. It was a Christmas party for the students.

And yes, the hoodie was no big deal at all.

The fact that they made a BFD over this
shows the mentality of the teacher and the
admins who backed her up.

Unfortunately, some teachers, including those in
Special Ed. classes don't feel like they are doing
their job unless they try to control damn near everything
students do while they are in school.

It's unnecessary and usually provokes the response
we see here.

[petronius]

317. It would be very nice if that was explained, wouldn't it? Unless this cow costume

had a razor-tipped tail or shot fire out of its eyes or something I can't see why it should be barred. When I hear cow hoody, I'm picturing a black and white sweatshirt with ear flaps on the hood and a strip of cloth hanging off the back. :shrug:

Also, I'm wondering why she couldn't be released to her mother, if her mother was right there watching her being taken...

[Goblinmonger]

359. So I think we all know very little about this

but where do you draw the line on letting rules slide? Just for the autistic kids?

[lolly]

363. No, of course not

ALL 8 year-old kids should be allowed to wear cute sweatshirts to school parties.

NO 8 year old should be humiliated and pulled away from a party because he or she is wearing a harmless "cow hoody."

[Kajsa]

367. NO, you don't let the rules slide.

Far from it.

If anything, children with special needs require
more structure in their lives.

As I said in the previous post, compromise is needed after a cooling off
period when a meltdown has occurred.
I doesn't sound like there was a cooling down period here at all.
Hitting, spitting and other forms of acting out often come when that vital
component of a solution is totally ignored.

Pushing a kid who is in the middle of a meltdown will bring that result.

Maybe it was, maybe not.

Compromise, working towards a solution will work.

In education, we call it modification.

[WolverineDG]

139. And why was she hitting, kicking, spitting?

because the STAFF wouldn't let her go to the party. Why? Because of her cow hoodie. Sounds like the cow hoodie IS relevant.

dg

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

154. Well it doesn't really matter, does it?

[WolverineDG]

171. Not to you, apparently

But then it appears you're like the teacher who wanted my cousin's daughter (Aspberger's) sent to juvvie & alternative education because she (gasp) refused to run 5 laps & sat on a bench, an assignment given the day before that she completed; the only other ones made to run the 5 laps that day were the ones who refused to do them the day before. And no, the teacher didn't recommend that those "normal" students be sent to juvvie & alternative education.

Sounds to me that the "adults" went nuts over this hoodie & should be fired. Any other rational adult would have overlooked the hoodie because it wouldn't be a distraction at a PARTY.

dg

[BuelahWitch]

217. No it isn't irrelevant, the pissing contest over the cow hoodie started it

Have you ever heard the term "pick your battles"? Why was the teacher so adamant that the little girl had to either a. take off the garment or b. modify it in the first place?

[Heathen57]

235. The teacher having a shit-fit

about the hoodie and refusing to allow the child to a party because she is wearing said hoodie is very relevant. If the teacher hadn't been such a hard-ass and made such a big deal to punish the child for wearing it, the whole incident would never have had to happen. The "I'm gonna show you who's the boss" attitude doesn't work well in law enforcement, much less teaching.

[Sonicmedusa]

249. Or, as I hope we have all learned, the presidency. N/T

The Cowboy and the "Criminal". ;)

[Goblinmonger]

360. And you know this was a "shit-fit" HOW, exactly?

Perhaps you're projecting some shit on someone that doesn't deserve it.

[lightningandsnow]

369. Precisely.

[Sanity Claws]

269. But the kid didn't do anything like that until the teachers made a

fuss of her cow hoodie.
That was the precipitating condition --- the teachers should be ashamed of themselves.
I just don't understand how they can ostracize a child just because she was wearing a cow hoodie.

[reggie the dog]

282. an 8 year old

a kid, you know, not capable of reasoning like an adult. How can you support cuffing them and taking them to the station?

[proud patriot]

161. That's my problem with this incident as well

:hi: It could have been avoided it seems.

I've learned working with kids all these years
that flexibility is always a good thing.

[proud patriot]

150. I don't know what her Individual Education Plan entailed

edited to add first paragraph

Yes kids respond violently everyday in my school I work in a
preschool program . My son Has Bi polar and has been 5150 once
in second grade . I am very familiar with how my district handles
these things. My son has had to be restrained . He did not receive
bruising


But for a child in my district it would have been
handled more like this .

Staff to parent : please don't send child to school with
certain hoodie that staff finds troublesome . It really
seems like this whole incident could have been avoided,
but I have learned to not make assumptions .

Staff with pro act training : proper use of restraint does NOT
leave bruises. It really seems like staff had ZERO clue about
how to deal w/ child.

principal assesses whether to involve local emergency system
for support . Communicates to police the child is disabled ,
and is likely out of control because of this disability/mental
illness . Calls Parent .

Police assess whether or not they believe the child is able to
regain control on own or will need medical assistance in
stabilizing . Police call ambulance Declare 5150 (worst case
scenario) EMT's with pro act training strap child to gurney
and off to the hospital child and parent go . 5150 is something
that doesn't happen very often but our disabled kids are not
handcuffed.

[Ilsa]

338. There are ways to restrain a child this young

that don't endanger them or the staff. I had to learn the techniques myself for my son who is now 12. He used to lash out when frustrated. Safe holds and repetition about behavior and consequences have taught him that his behavior won't help him. My son is big and strong and NEVER has the school had to call the police.

This school decided to punt their problem as a trial to see what they could get away with. Under IDEA, they should be compelled to pay for private education for this child if they don't want to bother learning how to deal with disabled children. They blew it. A safe hold on a 55 pounder is a piece of cake.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I don't know how you have enough information to make that call

Ulysses and I both work with kids with disabilities and we agree there isn't enough information here to make a decision about what really happened.

[JanMichael]

33. OK, Uly knows I know him. Not sure if I have ever responded

with you, but I know your name.

Can you tell me why the cops MIGHT have been called?

This child is eight years old. There seem to be no weapons involved. Please explain the circumstances in which police and not the parents needed to be involved in this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Um, because a crime was committed?

In my state we have to call the cops when an assault happens. We have no choice.

So yes, the trick is preventing the assault in the first place. And we don't have enough information to determine if this child's outburst could have been prevented or not.

I had a kid about 10 years ago who one day out of the blue stood up and starting throwing books, overturned his desk, jumped on the kid in the next seat and started pounding on him. No provocation whatsoever. The kids had been sitting at their desks working quietly and he just went berserk. Plus he was a good kid who had never really been in trouble all year. Turned out he had PTSD from an assault that had happened at home and Mom had not told us at school about it. And he just flipped out; we never did figure out exactly what had triggered him that day. So to blame us at school for restraining him and everything else we did that day to calm him down (and ensure the safety of the other kids) is just ridiculous.

Fortunately this was before the state law was passed that requires us to call the cops. But I feel pretty certain that had we done that and they arrived to see his outburst, they very well may have cuffed him to calm him down. It was very frightening.

So yes, I want more information about this little girl.

[Ms. Toad]

72. had the police been called,

it would have further traumatized him - which you apparently recognize by your comment that it was fortunate that this happened before the law required them to be called.

I spent 11 years in the trenches, in a very violent school, and I am appalled at how this was handled.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. And I am appalled at the jumping to conclusions going on in this thread

We do not have enough information to blame anyone for what happened or to pass judgment.

[Wiley50]

92. The information that BOTH sides in this argument seem to be missing is

"prosecutors dismissed the case Tuesday"

At a hearing on the case Tuesday, the prosecutor "said that he didin't think at this time it would be beneficial to pursue it becauase of her age and, of course, her condition,"

and

didn't even meet the minimum age requirement of 10 to be booked at the county juvenile detention center. "

At least, I haven't read anyone mention these things

But, there was one person (not you) who appears to be deliberately throwing gas on this fire

If it wasn't worth prosecuting, it wasn't worth persueing it to the extent the school officials did
starting with what harm it was for her to keep her hoodie that was obviously her "security blanket"

[griffi94]

95. seems to me you're doing a bit of jumping yourself

in your first post on this thread you decided it was "my child got in trouble so i'm calling the media" story.
then you claim the child shouldn't be classified autistic because she only has aspergers.
it seems from your posts that you have a bit of "us against them" attitude with regard to the kids and their parents.
so far we've been blessed with great teachers and staff
i know my son can be very difficult to handle but i also know me and the faculty are all on the same side. in case he had a really violent outburst...and he's had those before. i expect them to restrain him, but handcuffs and squad cars in over the line.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. I am sorry you apparently aren't aware of the tendency for SOME parents

to play the Call the Media game. It happens. Not often but too often.

I never said this child should not be classified as autistic. I merely pointed out that Aspergers is generally different from full blown autism. I also pointed out that the Aspergers kids I have known are mildly disabled. I will add I have never known an Aspergers kid to have violent outbursts. Not saying they never do but I have not seen this.

I have an attitude about people who take stories like this at face value and fail to think critically before concluding that teachers/schools/administrators are mean to kids. And 99% of the people making those judgments are not educators and have never been in a classroom with a kid having an outburst.
So their opinions are basically meaningless.

I can also assure you I have wonderful relationships with my students and their parents and a good reputation for the work I do. So insults on the internet are not going to phase me. I just think I might have something to add since I do have a degree of expertise. As do you. And really everyone else should probably just shut up now :)

[Pithlet]

157. So, what justifies charging an 8 year old Aspie with a crime, exactly?

What could this school possibly have been thinking? I'd like to know what info you think could possibly be missing to justify such an act? I'd also like to know how to justify not simply releasing her to her mother when she got there. I can possibly see things getting so bad that cops had to be called, but that's a real stretch. But, once her mom got there? I see no need for it getting taken even further.

Personally, I'm glad some people involved had some sense, as the charges were dropped. The mere fact that the school even pressed charges lends heavy weight to the side that says "Huge overreaction on the school's part" that the police were even involved." It sounds like a real winner of a school system, there. I think people who are jumping to conclusions in thinking the school is off their rocker aren't having to jump all that far.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

163. Charging? No. Arresting.

Police should be aware of the child. There should be a police report. And a nice big paper trail.

Because this probably isn't the last time the child and her mother will be involved in something bad.

"What could this school possibly have been thinking?"

That a child assaulted the staff, and that all needed to be protected.

"I'd also like to know how to justify not simply releasing her to her mother when she got there."

That is a little odd. I'm guessing the police are well familiar with the mother and had some reason for not releasing her then.

[Pithlet]

170. No. Because there wasn't an intentional crime committed here.

Children with Asperger's don't need to have an arrest report filed every time they have a fit, even if the police need to be called. That's ludicrous. She's not a menace to society.

[Hannah Bell]

176. a "crime"? won't be the last time she's involved in "something bad"?

what, throwing a fit because you tried to take her special jacket & then stuck her in a room by herself? she's an 8-year-old kid. that's what they do.

wtf is wrong with people?

[Heathen57]

215. Yep, all kids with disabilities are troublemakers

and are going to end up in jail someday.

Police should be aware of the child. There should be a police report. And a nice big paper trail.

Because this probably isn't the last time the child and her mother will be involved in something bad.

:sarcasm:


If you are a teacher, it is probably good that you would never have had my children since they both have disabilities. I would have been monitoring you and your class everyday, along with the principal and part of the school board if necessary. I was very involved with our children and though the Special Ed teachers loved us, some others were scared and hated us.

[Hannah Bell]

230. don't forget the mothers. the mothers are also suspect.

unbelievable.

no wonder kids get screwed up.

[Pithlet]

119. A crime?

Good lord. Guess it's time for me to take another break from DU before I have a fucking stroke.

[liberalhistorian]

138. I know. I've had to deal with this kind of reactionary ignorant

shit for years in regards to my aspie son and the stupidity of adults who should goddamn well know better, as well as the breathtaking prejudice and downright hostile hatred, never fails to amaze me.

[juno jones]

294. ...

My 18 year old son is aspie as well. I know well where you're coming from. I hope all is going well for you and him.
:hug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. Kids are becoming the last acceptable group to hate on.

Disabled ones are even funner.

:puke:

[liberalhistorian]

136. The only "crime" committed was to refuse

entry to the party in the first place over a fucking cow hoodie, and then to put the child in a room by herself, excluding her from everything, and then, when she tried to leave the room, physically restraining her instead of maybe, just maybe, if they were going to be so legalistic about the damned stupid hoodie, having someone with her to help distract her with other activities or at least trying to explain their stupidity in excluding her for a fucking cow hoodie. Period. What pathetic stupidity.

[Pithlet]

141. Yep. Basically, her crime was having Aspergers.

In other words, she didn't frigging commit a crime.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

151. The crime was assault and battery.

Refusing a misbehaving child to attend some school function is not actually a crime.

[Hannah Bell]

179. there was no "crime," no "assault," no "battery," because 8-year-olds

are considered, in every US jurisdiction, to be under the age of reason.

absolutely insane.

[proud2BlibKansan]

187. Kids can and do assault others

And are charged in every jurisdiction in the country. And yes as young as 8.

I know a 7 year old who was charged with sexual assault just a few weeks ago.

Not saying it is right or in the best interest of these young kids to charge them. But yes it does happen.

[Hannah Bell]

190. which is why the court dismissed the whole thing saying she was below the age limit even for juvie.

show me some evidence of your 7-year old "charged" (in what jurisdiction?) with "sexual assault".

[proud2BlibKansan]

194. Well since the child is a minor

that record is confidential.

But then it seems like you would know that. :)

[Hannah Bell]

222. charged in what jurisdiction? under what law?

that's not confidential, show me the law.

[Pithlet]

195. I also have a hard time believing

That her school calls cops for every single assault and that it's mandatory. I really, really find that hard to believe, unless teachers are turning a lot of heads, or their definition of assault is very narrow. Because I remember school. There would be a revolving door, just for the cops, and the stock for hand cuffs would shoot sky high.

[proud2BlibKansan]

199. Following the school shootings in the late 90s many states passed very rigid safe school legislation

which of course varies from state to state but does indeed in many states require schools to report assaults.

Surely you remember Columbine and the impact it had on school violence.

[Pithlet]

208. Yes, I do.

And I still have a hard time believing that school fights no longer occur on a daily basis in our schools. Sorry.

Wait a minute. Report an assault? I don't think that's what you said before, but I'll go back and check as I may have misunderstood. I thought you meant the cops had to be called to the scene. Because if the latter is true then that effectively bars mainstreaming of some populations of some children. Some kids do indeed commit assaults unintentionally, like children on the ASD who have meltdowns. They do have a right to an education without being hauled off in handcuffs. I'm not saying that teachers can't take measures to protect themselves, and that children shouldn't be removed safely when they become violent. I'm just saying that they don't need to be hauled off in handcuffs and they especially don't need to be charged with a crime when it happens. I'm still not seeing an explanation of why this couldn't have been handled as the medical emergency it was.

[liberalhistorian]

225. That's because too many

power-hungry prosecutors with absolutely no understanding of child and adolescent psychology and development are going batshit insane. I'm in the legal field, believe me, I know.

[acmavm]

237. What is with you? A lot of 8-year old girls regularly kicking your ass?

[BuelahWitch]

313. Sounds like what happened to Karl Rove...

:hide:

[acmavm]

332. No shit. Wonder why Osama didn't got out and recruit 8-year olds with

Asperger's. They must be some BADDDDDDD MO-FOs!

[lolly]

248. Keeping an 8 year old from her school party

Because she's wearing a harmless piece of clothing isn't criminal, but it's a pretty damn crappy thing to do.

[High Plains]

233. A crime? What do you call a playground fight then?

[gollygee]

341. A riot? Break out the tear gas! n/t

[ulysses]

55. insofar as I understand the situation,

the cops might well have been called if the parents were unavailable.

Back in October, the one EBD kid I have this year melted down in my absence, lost his shit and suckerpunched a female student in the back of the head. It was probably 7-8 minutes before they called me and I was there to help calm him down, but in the meantime the counselor who was trying to help restrain him (!) kept telling the child that he was going to call the police.

Poor choice on the part of the counselor, who only aggravated the situation, but the boy had lost his shit. It took me and several other special ed teachers half an hour to chill him out. Had I not been there - most school folks aren't trained to deal with this level of behavior - he'd have likely been in handcuffs, for his and others' safety.

Things go on that we might not have imagined in our school days.

[JanMichael]

84. Holy cow

thanks for the informative response--- good god--- I had no idea.

You are completely correct; more information is needed in this report.....

[Pithlet]

145. But you know what the difference between your situation

and the one being told in the OP's article is? Your school didn't actually press charges, did it?. It's not that they called the police to calm the situation, or even that they cuffed her. It's that they then proceeded to haul her off, even as the mother showed up, arrest her, and PRESS CHARGES. In your situation, your school didn't press charges, did they? Do you really think there's information missing that could possibly support the school pressing charges against this little girl with Asperger's, Uly? Really? Because as a parent of a child of the same age who's on the spectrum, not quite as functioning as an Aspie but close, I gotta say. I don't think schools should be pressing charges, even if they have to physically restrain. That's insane. I think they should have just released her to her mom when she showed up. I think it's pretty awful that they didn't even do that, no matter what info is missing.

[ulysses]

152. Hi, Pithlet.

Do you really think there's information missing that could possibly support the school pressing charges against this little girl with Asperger's, Uly?

I think it's possible that we don't know the whole story.

I don't think schools should be pressing charges, even if they have to physically restrain. That's insane.

What's the limit to which school staff should be subjected to physical abuse?

[Pithlet]

166. The story does include the fact she's an 8 year old girl with Asperger's

My God, Uly. I cannot even believe you're defending this. Unbelievable. Crime does involve intent, you know. She wasn't behaving with criminal intent, for God's sake! What the hell is wrong with you?

No. I don't think they should be subjected to physical abuse. But that doesn't mean they have the special right right to charge 8 year old children with Asperger's with crimes. If they want that right, they can find other jobs. Because there are things called suspensions. Expulsions. As an educator, I'm sure you've heard of them. She's 8 years old. She has Aspergers. Yes, they have a right to a safe working environment. There are tools in place for that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. When she kicked, punched, and spat on the staff...

are you saying she didn't intend to hurt the staff?

"Because there are things called suspensions. Expulsions."

Are you saying this child should be punished? My goodness.

Even I'm not saying that. I'm saying that she should be removed from where she was a danger to herself and others.

[Pithlet]

172. Yes. That's what I'm saying.

She very likely didn't actually intend to hurt anyone. I've seen an Aspy melt down. There's no purposeful action, there.

And, actually, I wasn't even saying the child should be punished. I was simply saying there are alternatives to the long arm of the law when it comes to protecting teachers from assault. A strawman was being erected where my position was apparently that teachers are just supposed to be punching bags, and I was whacking that one down before it was even completed.

[ulysses]

203. I'm defending nothing.

Neither am I rushing to judge the school staff.

What the hell is wrong with you?

That's an interesting question, isn't it? I think I'm done here.

[Pithlet]

214. Well, I'm not done. You can read my response or not. It's up to you.

You jumped on the people who judged that the school was in the wrong, and claimed we were jumping to conclusions, and claim there isn't enough information to judge. That is a form of defense. Because it implies that there is at least some justification for what they did. I wish you would at least lay out some scenarios that could possibly be missing from the story explain how this would justify their actions.

Yes, I got pretty heated in my response to you. Because as it stands, apparently just sending my child to school puts him at risk of being charged with a crime. Never mind that he's only 8 years old. Never mind that he's mildly autistic. That he can't actually intentionally commit a crime. Apparently there's some possible scenario that justifies him being charged with a crime, so I shouldn't have just jumped to the conclusion that the school acted in the wrong by hauling her little butt to jail and formally charging her instead of sending her home to her mother. I just have to hope he doesn't melt down. So far, so good. You know, if schools are going to be of such a punitive mind, perhaps mainstreaming was a bad idea after all.

I'm sorry, Uly. I don't think I jumped to a whole lot of conclusions, because I'm hoping that I'm actually not putting my son at risk, and that it is possible the school actually DID overreact, huh? Because if you're right, and there's any possibility that this scenario was justified? And 8 year old aspies should be hauled off, booked and charged? That's bad news.

[Hannah Bell]

178. "What's the limit to which school staff should be subjected to physical abuse?"

"physical abuse"? from an 8-year-old GIRL? 1 girl & a school-full of adult staff?

absolutely nuts.

[acmavm]

276. What's the limit to the abuse some kids should have to take? Because

this teacher was surely an abusive contolling incompetent.

[proud patriot]

174. I believe the mistake was made by the police

she should have been put on an ambulance , not a police car .

[Pithlet]

177. The school actually made the decision to press charges

There was a hearing, and everything. The DA decided to drop them, fortunately. That's what really makes this story so insane. Can you believe that? That's what makes me lean heavily toward handled inappropriately from the get go. Yeah, there could be some details missing from the story. This just makes me so much more thankful for our wonderful school. I'm not sure we're ever going to move. Not to that school district, for certain.

[proud patriot]

205. I can't even get my head around that

it makes my head hurt

[lolly]

246. Shield from lawsuits?

After the dust settled, they probably realized they were staring a lawsuit in the face. Maybe they figured if they could get some criminal charges made against the 8 year girl, they could avoid a suit.

[merh]

261. Apparently, this mother was available and was not called in a timely fashion.

Spring Towry said she got to the school Friday just in time to see 54-pound Evelyn -- who was diagnosed at age 5 with Asperger's Syndrome, a high functioning form of autism -- being walked to a police car with two officers at her side.

IF, this hoodie violated school dress code, then the mother should have been called immediately to bring a change of clothes or to take the child home.

IF, there was no dress code, the teacher acted arbitrarily and beyond her duties. Looks like cold climate to me, expecting a child to go without her hoodie in such cold weather is an abuse of authority.

The parent let the child go out of the house and to school in the hoodie, therefore, it was the parent's responsibility how that child was dressed and NOT the 8 year old's.

First mistake was not involving the parent's immediately.
Second mistake was the assault on the child - teachers can't just grab and restrain children for the hell of it. It was cruel to keep the child from the party, that was emotional abuse. The child was punished because she was wearing something the teacher didn't like. Does that even come close to making sense to you - parts of the record missing or not?

Sometimes you just can't defend the indefensible.

[acmavm]

277. Good good good for you. You laid it out so even the 'professionals'

defending the teacher and the school should be able to understand it.

[merh]

285. I find the defense of the teacher and the school system

appalling - this is a 54 lb eight year old.

Should a parent get a pass if they cannot restrain their 8 year old and resort to handcuffing it, chaining the child to a bed or in some room?

There were several adults involved in this incident and then there was one (1) lone 54 lb eight (8) year old with special needs that make her ability to relate to others and her ability to understand what was going on difficult if not impossible in the moments created by the adults.

I'm an adult, if you try to make me remove my clothing "just cause", I'm going to have difficulty understanding it.

The same one's defending the school would be the same ones defending another's right to freedom of expression, freedom to feel secure - a beloved cow hoodie versus "do it now because I said so."

[acmavm]

293. I know. I loved how it went from them defending the actions of this bunch

of morans without reservation to "more info is needed".

No, no more info was needed. The punchline was that the charges were DISMISSED, and for damn good cause.

Now, I hope that woman and her family take that school district to the cleaners. TEACH THEM A LESSON THAT IS LONG OVERDUE. Abuse is abuse and in this case it was the fucking teacher who was manipulative, abusive, and fucking unfit to deal with the situation.

[Goblinmonger]

361. I think

these comments about the age and the weight of the child are a double-bind for the teachers. So because the child is young and low in weight they shouldn't be a problem to physically control seems to be the argument. And certainly there is a point where a tantrum by some students, often special needs, results in the student needing to be restrained in some way for their safety and the safety of those around them. Of course there are better methods for this than others and teachers are generally trained in those when put in contact with students that may need it. And when those times arise, they should just do what they need to do because this kid is young and small. So they did restrain her during her physical tantrum and yet people are pissed about that.

I guess in short, it seems like you and others are just dead-set to blame the teachers on this. Go figure. We get pissed on all the time anyway. Certainly the teacher could have been at fault here, but there are plenty on this thread that don't want to admit that and blame the teacher. And when anyone says "we don't know the whole story" they become a hater of children with disabilities. Guess I'll earn that label now.

[proud patriot]

169. This child's outburst required a differently trained staff

I agree I can't be sure about her IEP or behavior plan .
I also agree I don't know all the facts here . It's
my initial observation .

I am a parent of a child who had violent outbursts
before he was stabilized medically . My observations
are also those of a parent who knows staff who have had
pro act training know how to restrain w/o leaving bruises.

This was a medical emergency not a criminal one IMO .

My son is not a criminal yet before stabilization
very easily could have been that kid . luckily he
was not handcuffed the police 5150'd him via ambulance.

and that is how this should have been handled IMO

[lumberjack_jeff]

196. So, you're saying you need more information before you can decide if it was handled badly?

Arrested in a dispute over a cow hoodie? Unavoidable?

[JanMichael]

21. oh, I am sure those are difficult children

but, the adults should be able to handle them without cops if it's a matter of a jacket being worn.

These people sound pathetic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. You would be amazed

by how violent little kids can be. A teacher in my district was recently hospitalized after being attacked by a 7 year old. In another district in this area, a teacher lost her eye when she got in the middle of a fight between 2 kids in elementary school.

[JanMichael]

83. OK, shutting up before you and Uly

seriously, you guys clearly know more than I do.

I had no idea that kids that little could be such a threat.

Thanks for the responses.

[ulysses]

90. Michael.

I had no idea that kids that little could be such a threat.

They aren't until you have to worry about their safety as well.

I can go Rambo on a whole class of first graders without much danger to my own person, but that misses the point. It's more difficult to safely restrain a child who poses a threat to himself or others, without hurting that child, than many seem to realize.

[Hannah Bell]

232. not if they weigh 50#. i'm 120, & i've restrained plenty of 50-pound kids in my time.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. "I had no idea that kids that little could be such a threat."

It's all fun and games until a thrown desk causes a miscarriage.

[dana_b]

316. it can be really scary at times

especially when the outbursts are unexpected. I've seen the desk throwing, the punches and the rage when I was a teacher's aide. It makes you wonder what these kids are going through at home and how their parents handle it. Also how the teachers keep going back and doing their jobs. I really admire those who stick with it because they do love their jobs and these kids. I couldn't do it

[Hannah Bell]

231. yeah, a cow hoodie. disruptive. gang symbol. or something.

uh, it's like a class of first graders, who cares if they wear tutus, they're little kids!

[bluestateguy]

6. Always the dumbest people on the planet: public school administrators

and in a blood red state too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Why the reference to red state?

As a resident of a 'blood red state' and a lifelong liberal, I am so tired of the tendency here to attach geography to behavior.

[MichiganVote]

13. I've worked with some excellent public school administrators.

These people need education about Autism. Your brush is too broad friend.

[Book Lover]

7. Sweet Jesus, these people are insane n/t

[proud patriot]

11. just disgraceful what that school and the police did

w/ the diagnoses the child should not have been cuffed or
put in a police car .. a 5150 in the worst case scenario
for the child's' well being and safety .

[MichiganVote]

12. These school officials don't understand the first thing about Autism. Stupid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. How about "these" school administrators ?

Cause I know school administrators who do an excellent job handling kids with disabilities and their outbursts.

[MichiganVote]

44. Correct. "These" school administrators don't understand Autism.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. What makes you say that?

[MichiganVote]

61. There are several tell tale signs in this article related to how to handle kids with ASD that

demonstrate that skills on the part of this school staff are lacking. In fairness, training in how to deal with these kids is often one of the last things people in schools are prepared for.

First, they all develop a dependency on something normies typically think of as an obsession. Ergo-the costume. The trick is not to battle the item they are stuck on but to utilize it in more socially acceptable ways OR to work on a replacement for it BEFORE placing the child in an on demand situation. Usually whatever they are stuck on acts as barrier to becoming too stimulated by the kind of sensory input we normies take for granted.

Its not rocket science, just child management with an understanding of how the minds of kids with ASD function. The school appears to lack a crisis plan for the child and that's also a tip that they probably lack knowledge and skill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. The kid has Aspergers

which is MILD autism. I have taught a lot of Aspie kids and most of them are in regular classrooms and don't even need a lot of time in special ed.

So my radar is on until I get more details.

[MichiganVote]

79. Actually I work with so called Aspie's and Autistic kids. They both have sensory issues,

they can both exhibit violent behavior and they both fall under the catagory of certification for ASD. In Michigan we don't distinguish between the two in terms of special education services except to certify kids who are predominantly Asperger like only for social deficits.

Factually, the jury is still out on what constitutes "Mild" Autism or "Mild" Aspergers. "High functioning" is often applied to both. Moreover, all kids with neurobiological difficulties display symptoms related to both Aspergers and Autism. The tendency to stay stuck on a particular item, process, person or speech pattern is a classic issue to work on. NOT the way it was handled by school staff in this article.

I train school district personnel in ASD and in the way to work with these kids regardless of the severity of their difficulties.

Yes, the devil is always in the details...

[earth mom]

Why don't you admit you hate children with Autism and get it over with?

:grr:

[MichiganVote]

181. Thats ridiculous. A difference of view hardly signifies hatred of anyone or thing. Get a grip.

[earth mom]

271. This post is NOT directed towards the OP, but toward the haters of kids with Autism on this thread.

[Sonicmedusa]

209. You are absolutely right.

Let me repeat this for the Hard of Reading:

"First, they all develop a dependency on something normies typically think of as an obsession. Ergo-the costume. The trick is not to battle the item they are stuck on but to utilize it in more socially acceptable ways OR to work on a replacement for it BEFORE placing the child in an on demand situation. Usually whatever they are stuck on acts as barrier to becoming too stimulated by the kind of sensory input we normies take for granted."

[Hannah Bell]

236. kid's without asperger's get stuck on things too. it's not a big deal,

you let them wear whatever it is until they want to wear something else. a cow hoodie for an 8-year-old isn't weird.

it doesn't require "special training".

[hunter]

18. The parents of the fairy princess street walkers didn't want a cow spoiling the photographs.

How does any adult manage to get into a fight with an eight year old? If it was truly about the cow hoodie, that's pathetic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. "How does any adult manage to get into a fight with an eight year old? "

Usually when the kid attacks the adult.

"If it was truly about the cow hoodie, that's pathetic."

What's pathetic is the stupid responses in this thread.

[Tempest]

37. Including yours

You keep adding to the story to justify your position.

Now that's stupid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. What do you think I've added to the story?

[rug]

42. "She reacted in a violent way to the physical restraint," Towry said

Good for her.

Pretty clear who laid hands on who. I doubt the school staff weighs 54 lbs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. "(the child) hit, kicked and spat on teachers."

"Pretty clear who laid hands on who."

It's pretty clear who didn't read the article.

[rug]

54. "She was just fighting to be let loose." Reading is fundamental.

Especially if you're trying to justify this bullshit of adults handcuffing 8 year olds.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Are you trying to pretend the child shouldn't have been restrained?

[rug]

58. Are you pretending a school needs handcuffs to properly control an 8 year old?

Or do you actually believe that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

I'm presuming they're police handcuffs, not the school's.

Ideally, there are a number of grappling moves specially trained teachers can perform.

Barring that training, the child and the staff are probably safest with handcuffs.

[rug]

65. And what specially trained staff felt the need to cal the police on a kicking 8 year old?

This is the Kootenai Elemenatary School, not an institution containing padded rooms for violent children. They should either get better training or join Blackwater.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. What specially trained staff? Any staff with a lick of sense.

That staff.

"This is the Kootenai Elemenatary School, not an institution containing padded rooms for violent children. "

Well I'm guessing the kid won't be around the general population much longer.

[rug]

73. This ranks up there with the best of your asinine comments.

Clearly this kid is headed straight for an institution where they won't take that kind of shit. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. ...

"Clearly this kid is headed straight for an institution where they won't take that kind of shit."

Hopefully the kid will be referred to some place that can adequately handle her.

I don't think her odds are in her favor in the long term though. What with a mother like that and all.

[Sonicmedusa]

213. "With a mother like that?"

WTF! What do you know about "The mother?"

That she let her 8-year-old daughter wear a cow hoodie that the child loved to school, and she is advocating on behalf of her disabled daughter?

If you think the child has bad odds, think again. "The mother" is standing up to non-disabled idiots.

[liberalhistorian]

226. And believe me, as the mother of an aspie, I've spent

years dealing with such "non-disabled idiots." And this particular one we're responding to makes all kinds of assumptions about how "kind" the teacher must have been, what an unprovoked criminal hellion the child was, what an awful mother she has, etc., then has the nerve to get angry at those of us who DO know about aspies and their behavior and claim we're the ones who are "assuming" without all the facts. His claim that behavior has nothing to do with disability is laughable at best, downright dangerously ignorant, at worst. It exemplifies those teachers and admins who think all children are alike, that one method works with ALL children, and who have no tolerance for differences and disabilities. Legalistic bullshit, as my teacher parents call it.

My parents dealt with such teachers throughout their careers, and hated it. They also always said to pick your battles, and this teacher obviously thought battling over a fucking cow hoodie that she knew was so important to the child was "important." Stupid and pathetic, however, are better words.

They do have a disability, however, and it's what I call "neuroconformity." In other words, this society's increasing intolerance for any neurological differences and different ways of thinking and perceiving that appear to not be the "norm." I'm seeing it more and more. Thing is, this world would be a helluva lot darker and harder without the contributions of aspies and others on the autistic spectrum in the sciences, arts and humanities.

[Sonicmedusa]

239. Hella yeah! And please rec this thread....For AWARENESS.

Thank you!

The disconnect with our "fellow humans" on this thread does not compare with the disconnect that our other fellow humans feel every day. SURREAL, isn't it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. I have never known a school to have handcuffs available for restraining kids

I also have that specialized restraint training but there are some situations where it does not work.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. That's pretty much my point.

[TK421]

88. Ideally, there are a number of grappling moves specially trained teachers can perform.

Wow...I wish you would have passed that wisdom along to the teachers I had in school...in High School, that is

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Is that a hot for teacher joke?

:P

[TK421]

105. Not at all...though I appreciate the Van Halen reference...never experienced that, sadly

I can relate to this subject in a sense.I have a niece who is ADHD ( I'm not sure when she was even diagnosed...perhaps eight, nine? the years fly ) who also had violent outbursts such as this.

Back in 1987 I was staying with my sisters family, and the niece had a violent outburst and did something nasty with my clothes ( she decided to throw them in the thrash can outside because she didn't want my mother and me living in HER house ). When confronted about my clothes being thrown away she proceeded to attack me by clenching her teeth around my arm and biting me...I removed her, put her in an arm-bar and took her down to the floor...... and rubbed her face in the carpet in order to subdue-control her....( looking back I should not have done that, but man was I PISSED...I had blood POURING down my arm from that bite ) at that VERY moment her dad comes home from work to witness this! ( yeah, no shit! ) Obviously he is confused and taken aback as to what he sees coming home from a long day, but my sister ( GOD, I love her dearly...one of my closest friends in this world ) explained what the niece did to me that forced me to get her down on the floor.....my brother in laws reaction? "Nicole....GET IN YOUR ROOM RIGHT NOW!!!!!" He is a big, Italian guy who you do not mess with....at all. He actually asked me if I was alright...I said "Yeah...just need some peroxide"

Now...in this particular case, I have to disagree with you..sorry..but an eight year old? Reading about my experience with my own niece, do you think what these people did wasn't a bit over the line?
Hey, man...you are entitled to your opinion, but personally...given the age, I think this is total bullshit

[Book Lover]

51. And the extent of your experience with 8 year olds on the spectrum is what exactly?

n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. I've been posting on DU for several years now.

But no, seriously...

I've a close family member who runs one of the special schools for violent children equipped with padded rooms I've mentioned above.

She had to physically restrain children on a daily basis, and call the police on a number of occasions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. The teachers in my district who work with kids with autism

tell me they do have to restrain kids almost daily. And I have seen the bruises these teachers get from their kids.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. You'd have been better educated by staying at a holiday inn.

[hunter]

67. I've handled worse than a weird kid in a cow costume.

I would call the police for a gun.

My own worst was a big loud eighth grader who flattened a kid and then stuffed a pager in her bra. In those days the only eighth graders who carried pagers were running drugs for the gangs. Now it seems every kid has a cell phone.

The police didn't show up for that one, and social services took forever to retrieve her. She was a biter too, but fortunately everyone escaped unbit.

At any school function you always need a few extra adults around to handle the disruptive kids, even in kindergarten.

It's always the parents who make me crazy. Some parents I want to wack with a club. Having the police drag these parents off in handcuffs would be okay too, but in most cases stupid parenting isn't illegal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Let's tell stories about parents who have to be removed from school in handcuffs

I have several of those :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Yes, but do they love Spongebob?

:crazy:

[acmavm]

280. Try sticking to the subject. It's not the parent under discussion here. It's

the incompetence and stupidity of the school and its staff.

[High Plains]

22. Yes, sue the school district. This is ridiculous.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. On what grounds?

[kiranon]

323. Every child is entitled to a free and appropriate education.

Federal law requires that children with disabilities receive a free and appropriate education. Clearly this child is not receiving such an education. The school can be sued under the Federal statute and those who tried to restrain her can be sued also for battery and child endangerment. The child's melt down was foreseeable and a known quantity with children on the autism spectrum. The school personnel caused the behavior that the child exhibited by not knowing how to proceed with a child on the autistic spectrum.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Yes, before the parents of the other kids in the class sue the school

for placing THEIR children in an unsafe environment.

It happens. Apparently more than you realize.

[DesertRat]

26. The school officials overreacted

They couldn't handle an out of control 8 year old? How does the district handle middle and high school students with behavior problems?

I wonder where the special ed. staff was. Special ed. staff are trained to restrain students without leaving bruises.

[4 t 4]

31. WTF ?

[DesertRat]

40. ?

[LeftyMom]

32. The kid is 8 years old. If she needs removed from the school, call her parent/emergency contact.

If she's a chronic behavior problem/beyond the school's ability to cope you look at an alternate placement. If you have to call the cops to protect you from a fifty pound girl, or would be willing to send a disabled handcuffed gradeschooler off in a squad car for any reason, you have no business being around children.

And with young kids, especially autistic spectrum kids, you really have to anticipate and be prepared to cope with the possibility of a meltdown on a party day or other serious disruption of routine. If there was some sort of issue with having the girl at the party that made having her in a room by herself like that look like a reasonable option, that should have been anticipated so either something could have been arranged to keep her happily occupied by herself or she could have stayed home instead.

Further, I have no bloody idea what the issue was with the cow hoodie. It's weird, but even neurotypical kids that age are spectacularly weird, and one can hardly complain that it was disruptive of the learning environment when they were already having a party.

[DesertRat]

53. Well said. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. And while you are waiting for the parent

what do you do while the kid having an outburst is endangering the other kids?

[LeftyMom]

81. The story says the girl was in a room by herself, because she wasn't allowed at the party.

So unless she's got the ability to send flaming fireballs into other rooms with her eyes or something, there's no way she was a danger to other kids.

[liberalhistorian]

125. The child shouldn't have been put in a room

by herself like that in the first place. Talk about making a child feel excluded and out of place. That was ridiculous. All because she was wearing a fucking cow hoodie? Jesus Christ, what stupidity.

[Ms. Toad]

160. Same thing you do while waiting for the police. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

182. she weighs 54#. you pick her up, take her elsewhere, & stay with her until

her parents come. ideally, getting her involved in something else.

i can't believe the nazis on this thread.

[liberalhistorian]

228. Oh, believe me, my son and parents and I have

dealt with such "nazis" on his behalf for a long time now. There's no shortage of them, even in supposedly "progressive" circles.

[Hannah Bell]

229. involve the police - not even to have a low-key "leave it to beaver"-type

talk, but to handcuff, arrest & take an 8-yr-old 50# GIRL to the police station - for - a temper tantrum, labeled "assault," "battery," "violence".

It's unbelievable.

and we've got "democrats" saying things like "i'd kick her ass if she 'assaulted' me, boy!"

suffering christ on a crutch, if these are "democrats," i'm not sure i want to live in this world.

[reggie the dog]

330. come to Europe

in France, Spain, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and perhaps some other countries there is still a real left. The "left" in the USA is like the extreme right here in France.

[mike_c]

80. most rational response in this thread so far....

My housemate works on the floor in a group home for autistic kids, all over the spectrum. I KNOW violent responses are reasonably commonplace-- not an everyday occurrence, but not uncommon, either. I suspect she and her co-workers would regard any event that led to one of their kids being handcuffed by the police as "utter failure on the part of staff."

And while they have two houses full of autistic kids, there is not a "padded cell room" anywhere on either premises.

[LeftyMom]

85. My really good friend, who is like a brother to me, teaches non-verbal severely autistic kids.

He's been bitten, pissed on, hit and dryhumped (they're going through puberty and they don't understand) by kids four times that girl's size. He's never called the cops on anybody. Of course, he actually knows what the hell he's doing.

[The Straight Story]

89. Thank you for your insight

and relaying some positive experiences (ie, people who can handle their job and maintain the dignity of their students).

[Kajsa]

123. Thank you, LeftyMom.

You speak for a number of us,
especially parents of autistic children/
young adults.

During my son's school years, I met a number
of great Special Ed. teachers,
some not so great and some who should not be
in the profession.

I'm a teacher, also.

[lolly]

250. Yeah, but

I'll bet he'd show them who was boss if one of them dared to wear a cow hoody to a party!

[kestrel91316]

63. "Ponderay"?? It's actually Pend Oreille. Sigh.

And oh, yeah, I feel SO MUCH SAFER knowing that dangerous people like this little girl are getting their just desserts in court..........

[mmonk]

94. Autism, and Asperger's especially isn't characteristically associated with violent behavior.

Also, people in this thread are showing their ignorance if they think an arrest is appropriate.

[MichiganVote]

97. On the contrary I work with Aspie and Autistic kids who display violence quite frequently.

[mmonk]

99. Severely autistic children have outburst or erratic tendencies but I haven't

met any Aspergers syndrome candidates on the spectrum that are. An arrest isn't an appropriate response to an 8 year autistic child. I got involved in politics being an advocate for children with disabilities (as well as being the parent of an son on the autistic spectrum).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. I think it's entirely possible...

that this child's violent assault on the staff may have had nothing to do with her high-functioning autism.

[mmonk]

129. I guess the question is whether an 8 year old autistic child calculated and carried out

a violent assault on a teacher or was she reacting to being physically removed? I need a whole lot more information. And how many 8 year old children would have been arrested?

[Sonicmedusa]

243. Well hell....This the first post that you are even beginning to make sense on.

Try to keep it up. ;)

[Hannah Bell]

366. "this child's violent assault on the staff"

ha-ha-ha-ha-

now you've got the 54# 3rd-grade girl is initiating an assault on the entire staff...too funny.

she looks scary, alright.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6640478&page=1

& i can sure see how the cow hoody would have been a huge distraction at the xmas party!

[MichiganVote]

108. I assure you children who have Aspergers can and do become violent too.

[mmonk]

143. Can you explain what you mean by violent?

While autistic children react negatively towards certain stimuli and say they may overturn something sitting on a table like a glass of water, most higher functioning don't. As far as visiting violence on others, that doesn't tend to be a trait. A child who has mild autism probaly has violence visited upon them through the course of their childhood more than the other way around. There are also children who have other issues who are diagnosed wrongly and put on the spectrum.

[MichiganVote]

184. Look...I'm NOT going to get into a pissing match with you about what I know or

about what you know. This isn't a DU poster knows best contest. So please stop it. I work with kids with ASD and they do get violent usually in response to a situation that is out of hand for them and sometimes b/c they have been badly handled and do not recognize their "triggers". I have worked with kids with Aspergers who are verbally and physically violent. I have worked with kids who are neither Autistic or whom have Aspergers and guess what? They get violent too.

It is 'stereotyping' to assume that only so called Autistic kids get violent as a result of their condition and that kids w/Aspergers do not. None of it is a black and white issue.

So let's just agree to disagree and I'll assume you have some knowledge and frankly, I invite you to wonder if I happen to have a great deal more.

[mmonk]

188. I'm sure you do even though I've lived with autism everyday of my life

since 1985. I'm not getting into one with you either because I never said none ever do.

[MichiganVote]

192. Well then I am sorry for my harsh response...your remarks make more sense to me now.

[mmonk]

207. No problem. I come off bad sometimes when trying to make my points.

Sorry about that. I could improve on my own communication skills better than worrying just about my son's. I've become rather proud of him though as he is graduating in May with 3 associate degrees from NC State and is going to stay in school and getting a bachelors degree to add to it. I remember when he was in the third grade and we were told he would never learn or become a good enough student to make it through high school. It took alot of adaptation on his part and alot of sweating from us, his parents. Anyway, best of luck with you and your profession with all its challenges.

[Sonicmedusa]

218. Then again, you have very likely worked with kids who were misdiagnosed.

Sorry about your luck, but my understanding is, under the right circumstances ANYONE can get violent.

Violence is NOT an Aspie trait. Period.

[MichiganVote]

331. And I don't disagree. But the discussion you are replying to was not about "traits"

It was about whether or even when people or students with Aspergers can or do get violent.

[Hannah Bell]

185. "violent" = an 8 year old throwing a fit, kicking, hitting, biting, spitting.

as if there's any 8 year old who doesn't, under the right circumstances.

these posters are nuts.

[Hannah Bell]

234. dupe

[liberalhistorian]

110. That's because most aspies don't and, as the mother of one,

I'm getting goddamned sick and tired of reactionary ignorance and hatred. Mighty sick of it. And my son will be fighting it for the rest of his life, when he doesn't deserve that at all.

[liberalhistorian]

114. As the mother of an aspie, I've been continually amazed

through the years to see and hear such a level of reactionary ignorance, even from supposedly "intelligent" "progressive" people. Truly sickening. And the fact is that most school districts are not equipped at all to handle aspies and often consider them no better than severe autistics, which is absolutely not the case. My son will be fighting this all the rest of his life, which makes me sick.

[K Gardner]

273. My niece has Aspergers - her parents spend 100% of their time making sure

she is properly taken care of by the public school she attends. She is in an Aspie's Program, yet the level of incompetence is stunning. It is a daily struggle, a lifelong one; frustrating and sickening. I didn't read the comments on this post at first because I feared the ignorance I would encounter. DU did not disappoint.

Best of luck to you - my thoughts/prayers are with you and know that you are not alone.

[BlooInBloo]

96. I'm amazed that the domestic terrorists didn't taze her.

[ulysses]

101. took you a whle to weigh in on a teacher issue.

The "domestic terrorist" line is a new one, though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. No, that's an old standby.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0223-08.htm

[ulysses]

104. true!

Not sure how I forgot that.

[BlooInBloo]

124. Hah! Not the teachers. Cops.

[earth mom]

102. This kind of shit is what is wrong with schools these days!

:grr:

You think the teachers could have used a bit of compassion and understanding, not to mention proven techniques on how to deal with Autistic children?! But, oh Hell No, they'd rather use force instead! This story just torques my ass and I'd highly recommend a law suit by the parents as well as homeschooling for this child! Just more proof that most schools and teachers are woefully inadequate and clueless on how to deal with these kids!

:grr:

p.s. The hatred for Autistic children by so called "educators" on this thread is absolutely disgusting. :puke:

[ulysses]

109. ?

Just more proof that most schools and teachers are woefully inadequate and clueless on how to deal with these kids!

One example proves most? Here's to homeschooling in math!

[earth mom]

116. Nice equality sig you got there. So you think these kids are treated equally or fairly?

I think not.

[ulysses]

122. equality is getting what you need.

You tell me. Obviously, you have more experience than I do.

[earth mom]

128. Equality is about not being prejudged or mistreated for ANY reason.

You should know that if it REALLY matters to you.

[ulysses]

132. so by your statement, I shouldn't know which of my students

has a language-based learning disorder and which not?

[earth mom]

135. You should give them the benefit of the doubt by being compassionate & caring first & foremost.

So, You are a teacher? Yikes. :yoiks:

[ulysses]

140. fine, but that doesn't mean

that I should treat them as if they'll never have to interact with the world.

[earth mom]

144. Do you even know what an IEP is? Or that it is the LAW that schools must provide

a tailored and personalized education plan to all children with disabilities?

You should know this if you are an educator:

http://www.wrightslaw.com/idea/

Which is why it is beyond obvious that the teachers & the administrators in the OP don't have a clue what their job legally entails.

[ulysses]

156. gee! I've never heard of an IEP!

:eyes:

If you'd like to match wits, please let me know. I look forward to the challenge!

Otherwise, please post something worth discussing.

[Sonicmedusa]

259. Maybe you understand LRE, then.

I mean if you DO understand IEP.

You know, LRE?

If not, maybe you should have got into LEO instead.

Bullshit "educators".

[donco6]

286. I know IEP and LRE, but what's LEO?

Just curious.

[reggie the dog]

336. law enforcement official

[donco6]

340. Ah. Thanks. n/t

[donco6]

283. You know why this is news?

Because it's unusual.

How many autistic kids do we have in school EVERY SINGLE DAY who aren't in the paper?

I can say with certainty that, unless a kid truly physically assaulted someone, there would be no arrests involved in my school. If an assault did occur, my hands are tied.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

349. In A Rarity Of Rarities;

:applause:

[WolverineDG]

117. What's the deal with the hoodie

& banning her from the party because of it? Was it really all that important that she take it off for a party that they had to put her in a separate room? Sounds to me like the "adults" let the situation escalate & get out of control.

And :wtf: are they doing arresting a kid, especially one in special ed? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

dg

[Kajsa]

134. Bingo!

The hoodie was NOT a big deal.

It certainly didn't warrant refusing her
entry to the party. :grr:

One of the first lessons I learned as a teacher
was,

Pick your battles!

This shouldn't have been one of them.

[rug]

149. The school has a zero lactose tolerance policy.

[CraftyGal]

118. All the articles mention the girl became violent

After the teachers had restrained her. The teachers and administrators need to learn how to handle kids with Asperger's. Children with Asperger's have no idea about facial expressions or body language. Often they need just a clear explanation as to why the cow costume or whatever the obsession is needs to be dealt with. They have a way of understanding why. Not the "because I told you so or to".

If she was not even allowed into the party than she thought why should I be here? Teachers need to be given different skills other than restraining. There is always a cause and effect. People need to chose their fights. Why were they so upset about her beloved "cow costume"? Schools are not prisons.

When i worked in daycare, there were often children who had behavioral issues. As the teachers and grown ups we had to decide what struggle we had to fight with. We had a child with Oppositional Defiance Disorder, this is also on the autistic spectrum. The young person was okay for the most part, however if she wanted to do something and another child didn't she could get violent. As a lost resort we used the hug me hold in order to protect others. The child was never hurt and only "restrained" if she was hurting others or herself. We explained to parents this was the hold we used to restrain the kids and only as a last resort. We never had to get the police involved.

From what I understand teachers do not get as much training on child development as daycare/preschool teachers. I got a whole year on development, in addition to curriculum and how to positively train children to make decisions rather punishment. Punishment doesn't work, children learning how to problem solve and come to resolution is the best way to get a resolution to any situation. This takes time and patience, two thing that teachers, given class size and time limitations, are unable to do.

This is not a criticism against, teachers. It is a fact, something I have seen over and over again. My son has Attention Deficit Disorder, again on the autistic spectrum, in addition to Central Auditory Processing. What CAP is, where the person may have perfect hearing, according to a trained audiologist, but the processing is garbled. This is often due to background noise or if the person who is lecturing is soft spoken and is trying to teach a lesson in a large classroom. My son was in a Special Education Class geared to learning disabilities. He had a hard time because the teachers were unwilling to listen to what the audiologists had reccomended.

He want a happy go lucky kid to a very depressed, suicidal child in the space of 3 months, He ran away from school and ended up suspended. I was able to get his school changed and he thrived. I had to send him out of town to get him what he needed, but he got it. When I brought him back home for Grade 6 and part of 7, he changed again and he now lives with his grandparents in another province and he is now thriving again and excelling.

I think the parents need some supports and the teachers need some better training on how to deal with Aspberger's. These children aren't stupid, just hardwired differently than "normies". My husband, TrogL is a person with Aspberger's and I have had to learn how to gauge things with him and to be very clear as he doesn't get body language or facial expressions. I have to sayt o him I am angry and this is why. The only time I have never had to actually say anything is if I have been crying. If he sees tears he knows that I am upset about something and he will just sit and wait until I explain what I am feeling.

Sorry for the long rant, as I know all sides, as a parent, a wife and an Early Childhood Educator.

CraftyGal

[LisaL]

142. If the kid was trying to leave, the teachers might had to

restrain her because of safety issues. Was she trying to leave the school? No one would want an 8 year old to get lost if she was allowed to leave the school by herself. I feel for those teachers.
They are in between a rock and a hard place.

[CraftyGal]

147. My son left the school after he was so stressed out with it.

He went home. I wasn't notified until almost 4:00 while I was at work. He had left at 1:00. I had to leave work and go home to see if he was there. It was after that things changed. The teacher was aware that she was leaving, she could have phoned mom and told her right then she was leaving. Why wasn't mom called sooner? My mom and I, we shared guardianship of him as I was a single mom at the time, had that agreement with the school.

So the school was not between a rock and a hard place. They made some very strange decisions.

CraftyGal

[LisaL]

180. And so are you advocating that school allowed an 8 year old child

leave? Give me a break. Had school let her leave, and something happened to her, everyone would be screaming bloody murder.

[Sonicmedusa]

219. No. She was suggesting that the school be patient and CREATIVE.

They are educators. They should be educated. There are many things you could do to distract an 8-year-old that does not involve restraints.

Hell, let them talk.

[CraftyGal]

224. That is not what I said.

"The teacher was aware that she was leaving, she could have phoned mom and told her right then she was leaving."

Mom could have dealt with situation a lot better than this. The teacher should have phoned her and told her what had happened. Mom could have come and calmed her daughter down. The situation ended up being escalated.

With my son, what happened was it escalated to the point where he walked out of the school, got onto a transit bus, told the bus driver that he needed to get home and had no money. The driver then handed him a transfer and he transferred to the second bus. He arrived at home. He did this at 1:00, they didn't even notice that he was missing until 3:20 pm. I didn't get the call that he was missing until 4:00 pm, at work. They were not aware that he was missing because the special education teacher had sent him to the kindergarten room, he was in Grade 5, as punishment. He was sent there because he wouldn't remove his hoodie hood from his head. My son was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, which is on the autistic spectrum and Central Auditory Processing Disorder, also on the autistic spectrum. Central Auditory Issues is also classified as a learning disability. He was in a school that was supposed to help with this type of learning disability and they had no idea how to work with him adn refused to listen to me or to follow the recommendations that were in the several reports.

If this is what is happening in our schools then we need to figure out what works best. Often the parents can work with the child and get them settled. The teacher should have contacted the parents, end of story.

CraftyGal

[LisaL]

Unless the mother invented a time machine, it would take time

for the mother to come pick the kid up. What makes you assume the mother was not called?

[lolly]

253. They made the hard place themselves

When they decided to keep an 8 year old from attending a party with all her classmates--one they'd probably all been talking about and looking forward to--because she was wearing cute sweatshirt.

Perhaps these people should find jobs as nightclub bouncers, keeping the people who are wearing last year's Versace's out because they are SO not cool.

[earth mom]

146. Excellent post! nt

[CraftyGal]

159. Thank you...nt

[mmonk]

164. You can't discipline or punish an 8 yr old autistic child out of an

obsessive clinging to a comfort article of clothing and you aren't "teaching them a lesson" by having them arrested.

[Pithlet]

167. But there's not enough information!

:sarcasm: :puke:

[lolly]

255. There was a lesson

It was probably something along the lines of "Never, ever question any authority, no matter how arbitrary or unfair it seems."

Or maybe "what you wear is more important than who you are."

[reggie the dog]

337. and the girl taught a good lesson herself

fuck arbitrary authority, fuck being unfair, and fuck you for being unfair to me.

[tekisui]

173. An eight year old child with developmental disabilities was causing

no harm by being dressed in a cow hoodie. That is where the break down started. The initial response by the school was wrong. She should have been accommodated. The insensitivity of the school led to the disruption and 'violent response' of the eight year old.

The school messed up and reacted wrongly every every step along the way. I hope the parents sue, win and the school corrects their lack of understanding towards those with developmental disabilities.

[Shardik]

200. This is a travesty.

There is something inherently wrong with the system where a school would feel the need to call the police on a fifty pound eight year old girl. If the child was that out of control, maybe an ambulance if a parent couldn't retrieve the child, but to have her arrested?

Christ. We live in the most punitive non-3rd world society I can imagine.

[varelse]

201. all this over an article of clothing?

simply appalling. It just didn't have to go there. Her mother has the right idea - get her out of the school run by clueless "educators" who badly need re-education themselves.

[Sonicmedusa]

202. Punishing a child for being a non-conformist

I think this is a simple case of a school or teacher being punitive to a child for not conforming.

Unless things have changed a great deal since my Aspie teen was a primary school child, parties were held at the end of the school day. If this was the case in this situation, the school allowed this child to wear this hoodie all day, and maybe every day, and thought they had a "gotcha" moment with the Christmas party in having some leverage on their "authority".

If this child was allowed to wear this hoodie every day, this child was confused and righteously reactive to being suddenly excluded and punnished for something she did every day -or at the least did all day long that day at school. Aspies are very high-functioning and rarely violent, but they can be very rigid when it comes to their routine and their comfort items. Patience and reasoning can go a long way in these situations.

Being a cowbow, and "You must respect my authority", does not.

[BuelahWitch]

220. I wish I could rec a post

That's what it totally sounds like! :yourock:

[Sonicmedusa]

227. TY! Others please rec this thread for awareness. N/T

[CraftyGal]

238. Does rec mean record?

Just asking as I don't know all the netspeak.

CraftyGal

[Sonicmedusa]

241. No. It means recommending this thread.

The icon is located on near the first post.

[CraftyGal]

242. Thank you...nt

[merh]

256. The school failed miserably

If the hoodie was the issue, if it violated some dress policy, then the school should have called the parents and asked that a change of clothes be brought to the school or the child taken home.

The teacher assaulted the child first when he/she tried to restrain the child - emotional torture of separating the child from the party was cruel and the child was punished because the parent let her go to school in a damned hoodie.

I hope the parents sue the hell out of that school, having an 8 year old handcuffed and arrested over a damned hoodie. Oh, and sue the cops too, can't book a kid under 10 into juve facilities. The kid gets arrested for breaking rules but the adults get a pass - how fucked up is that?

[donco6]

292. I pretty much agree.

I can't imagine ever arresting an 8 yr old. Was there truly an assault involved?

I've been in my district 13 years and we've never had any student handcuffed that I know of. And we're not a wealthy, low-crime area by any means.

I don't know if you can sue the cops, though. And the school is probably protected with an immunity clause. Not that you can't still sue, but the award is severely limited.

[merh]

296. Immunity clauses protect only if the police and school/teacher were

working within their policies and guidelines, within the rules.

Was there a dress code? If there was a dress code, what does it say about violations? Since it was an elementary school one would assume that the parents be contacted and asked to bring a change of clothing and/or to pick up the child and take him/her home. Was that policy followed? How soon was the parent contacted?

If there was no dress code, then the demand that the hoodie be removed was arbitrary and capricious, the teacher acted outside of his/her authority and in so doing, violated the students right to feel secure in her environment and her right to free expression. To add injury to insult, the teacher physically restraining the child is abuse. Excessive force under the circumstances to be sure. And again, how soon was the parent notified. The child was punished because of the "poor fashion sense" - the child was emotionally punished by not being allowed to go the x-mas party. It is the adult parent that is responsible for the child's clothing, for what the child wears to school each day, yet this child is punished for the parent's bad choice?

As to the police - apparently the county/state has a policy that says children under 10 cannot be booked into juve facilities yet this poor girl was booked - yes, the police acted beyond their powers and they violated policy as well. The cops I know would have put that child in their car to protect her from the school officials and would have verified that the parents were called - they would have contacted the parents and would have released the child to the parents. They would not have charged her, they would have told the teacher that he/she could go down and file a complaint if she wanted to pursue charges.

A parent/adult striking a child is child abuse. That is a felony.

A child pinching someone is simple assault - a misdemeanor for an adult, not a crime for a child who doesn't have the criminal intent, the developed mind to know that their actions are wrong, let alone criminal.

[donco6]

299. Interesting.

This is just not the way we ever handle things here. My special ed. teachers would be appalled.

[Odin2005]

212. School Administrators = morons.

Somebody tell these idiots that it's very typical for us Aspies to have extremely sentimental attachments to certain objects. Trying to take such objects away from an Aspie kid is a recipe for disaster.

[donco6]

288. I'm a school administrator.

I'm not a moron.

[Odin2005]

295. There are always exceptions to the rule.

When I was in high school the old principal, a nice, easygoing, elderly guy, retired and his replacement was a absolute dickhead.

[donco6]

298. I couldn't tell from your post.

And it's kind of a kick in the teeth to know that people believe such things.

[bluedawg12]

240. This story blows. The teachers appear to have escalated this

she was charged and arrested, she was not prosecuted and the charges were dropped.

WTF is wrong with a "beloved cow costume?"

[acmavm]

245. This is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that it's the new thing to turn

every citizen in this country into a convicted criminal for one reason or another. Apparently starting as early as possible. But this is bullshit. The school knew this kid had some problems that would require special handling. The fact that the principal chose to take the combative route rather than try to placate the kid and wait for a parent shows that she has no business being involved with kids, especially kids with disabilities. What the fuck was the kid gonna do with those ears and tail? Do you people think she had WMDs hidden in there?

Fuck, cuffing an 8-year old kid with disabilities because of really poor judgement skills by the principal is obscene. And then, all you defenders of truth, justice, and the Amurikan way fail to note that the charges were DISMISSED. I am so glad my kids never had to be in the same time zone that you're in.

Hell some of this crowd probable got off on the thread about the girl being stripped searched for IBUPROFEN.

[Lucian]

247. This is messed up.

What is our country coming to? Handcuffing an eight-year-old? :wtf:

[JVS]

251. If this child can't behave, she doesn't belong in the normal school

[lolly]

257. What kind of normal school

Kicks an 8 year old out of a party because she has a cute animal sweatshirt on?

[Hepburn]

270. That was my first thought when I read the articles on this.

WTF? The teachers would not let her go to a school party because she was wearing a cow sweatshirt?

GMAB!

[CraftyGal]

260. It actually has nothing to do with "behavior".

It has to do with how an a person with Asperger's is hardwired. What socializers are able to do intuitively (hardwired when using computer terms), the Aspie has to learn (software) through script work. The "Hello, how are you doing?" script. the weather script, the elevator script are ones that come to mind.

People that are on the autistic spectrum, need to have concrete rules that make sense. They need schedules that don't waver to much. In a differently structured time such as the Christmas Party, they revert back to makes them feel comfortable whether it is their favorite clothing, obsession, books, or whatever else it takes for them to almost, literally get a grip. The reason being is the exaggerated facial expressions, the raised voices which could be interpreted as anger as opposed to joy. To many voices can make it difficult to follow what is happening, and those people who do socialize well often use those situations to target people that have Aspberger's. Taken the slightest social blunder is yet another opportunity for the socializers to get their "kicks" literally. Hence an Aspie blind sided by a teacher, grabbing her when she is already in a heightened-near panic state will react badly.

In a well structured classroom, where a teacher in an authoritative control as opposed to an authoritarian martinet or a loosy-goosy let them do whatever they want wimp, Aspie's do just fine.

CraftyGal

[Hannah Bell]

265. Then you better send half the grade school home, because on any given day

you'll find somebody tantruming, not minding, fighting on the playground, etc.

They're little kids, not obedient robots.

This is normal kid stuff. It's the role of adults to teach them, kindly, how to deal with conflict, disappointment, frustration - not to arrest them when they fail to "perform".

[JVS]

266. Half the kids hitting, kicking, and spitting?

Your school must have been FUCKED UP. I never saw that happening at my school

[Hannah Bell]

267. during the school year, yes. more than half. grade schoolers wander around,

sock other kids, spit, cry, make funny noises, refuse to take off or put on items of clothing, refuse to do the project du jour, yell, throw food, throw toys, have meltdowns for no apparent reason, trip each other....

if you didn't see it, i guess you live in some land where children spring from the womb fully formed into miniature adults, but i sure saw it as an adult volunteer at the local grade school, & with the kids of family & friends.

[rug]

272. If the staff cannot handle an 8 year old with special needs, they don't belong in any school.

[WolverineDG]

274. Who said she can't behave?

They knew she's an aspie. They picked on her because she's "different" than the "normal" kids. Who gives a flip if she's wearing a cow hoodie at a damn school party? If they were having a test & the hoodie was distracting the other kids, okay fine, deal with her to get her to take it off. But a PARTY??????

And what is "normal" anyway & why shouldn't "normal" kids learn to deal with others who are different? Should all Aspies wear stars or something so you "normal" folks will know to avoid them?

dg

[donco6]

287. Wow.

That takes me back 40 years.

[Odin2005]

297. The kid wasn't "misbehaving" she was reacting to being trated like crap. n/t

[Name removed]

304. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

339. normal schools suck

I say this as a teacher. Schools are conformity mills. I try to combat this in my classroom as much as I can but face it, school is there to teach people how to sit down, shut up, and do as they are told without question when the bell rings.

[swishyfeet]

262. The little girl was fortunate just to have a few small bruises

[DainBramaged]

263. It amazes me how many people in this thread defend the actions of the school officials

This is not the DU I have known. And I'm considered a scum bag. Yet God forbid you speak out against one of the sacred cows here and your membership is at risk.


DU where children are considered as accessories (by some) and tolerance is only given to certain groups of people.

[The Straight Story]

302. Indeed - I think one of the problems I see though is

some folks expect a like the one in the story to act rational and when she doesn't they excuse the irrational acts of the teachers/admin/cops.

The hoodie meant something to her, more than it would mean to most people. Those dealing with special needs kids need to factor in those things.

I worked around troubled kids for a short time at the salvation army and it can be very trying on one's patience and requires the adult to be vigilant.

I will say in some defense of the teachers/admin though that so many people fear lawsuits they don't want to do anything anymore that might put them in jeopardy. Even when I was a deputy myself working at the main jail we were cautious in how and when we even touched prisoners and what we said to them cause there was always someone wanting to file a suit.

Damned if you do something and damned if you don't.

Still - an 8 year old in handcuffs?? Jeebus.

[TwilightGardener]

290. When my son was in kindergarten, he showed up at school all excited

and ready for his class field trip to the Tampa aquarium, and was informed by his teacher that unless I accompanied him, he wouldn't be allowed to go and would have to spend the day in his classroom being "babysat" while the rest of his class was gone. I was at work and totally unaware of the situation, my husband was deployed, and my son spent the day with a teacher's aide and one other student who wasn't allowed to go. I was LIVID. My son (13 now) has since been diagnosed with ADHD, but has never forgotten being isolated from his class and treated like dirt because of his condition. I feel for this little girl, being stigmatized and separated from her peers, and not having the ability to express herself and her feelings appropriately because of her Asperger's--shame on the staff for provoking this situation and then allowing it to get out of hand. In my experience, very few teachers are equipped or even motivated to deal with ADHD and Asperger's kids.

[BuelahWitch]

300. Oh that's awful!

He was probably so looking forward to that, and then at the last minute being told he can't go because the teacher got a bug up her ass. The emotional abuse we get at school hurts far longer than the physical.

[TwilightGardener]

303. He was crushed--but I didn't realize how much until he brought it up recently--

that's one of his defining childhood memories, sadly. That's when he knew he wasn't as good as the other kids, that there was something wrong with him. A brutal lesson to learn.

[demodonkey]

291. My brother -- deceased in 2007 at age 49 -- had Aspergers.

Even from the brief description in the article, it is clear that school doesn't have the most remote idea of how to help and deal with Autism/Aspergers. NOT A CLUE!

Every choice the teachers and administration made -- starting with separating the child from the school party -- was the just about WORST POSSIBLE THING THEY COULD HAVE DONE.

Some people with Autism or Aspergers attach to certain patterns of behavior such as wearing special articles of clothing, etc. Disruption of those patterns is VERY upsetting. People who work with such individuals have a responsibility to learn how to respond appropriately. OR FIND ANOTHER JOB.

That child will remember this incident for the rest of her days, and heaven only knows how badly she was damaged.

And for everyone's info before you jump to the school's defense -- My father was a School Administrator and my mother is a retired Elementary Teacher. And I have a degree in education as well.

IF YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE THESE ISSUES, YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO HANDLE SITUATIONS LIKE THIS APPROPRIATELY. Period.

[sam sarrha]

301. i was locked in closets. told if i made any noise the bear in the darkness would eat me. Aspi age 6

second grade teacher put a big box around my desk so i wouldn't look around, i could read at age 3, i would sneak books out of the higher classes at lunch time and study them, in the 2nd grade i was up to at least 5th grade on all subjects..

i never learned anything in school.. but was viciously abused and sometimes tortured

[Hanse]

305. I agree with the school system.

The student was a threat and needed to be removed.

It's entirely possible that a teacher pushed the child's wrong buttons, which led to the blow out.

But that's neither her nor there.

After the blow-out, the school handled it to the best of their ability.

I notice the knee-jerk critics of the school staff offer no viable, realistic alternatives. Just phony accusations of bigotry against autistic students, blaming the victim (the staff), projection (well my child would never do this) rose-colored alternatives that wouldn't work (detention? really?), just plain ignorance ("a small child is a threat to nobody"), and the sort of bizarre anti-school rhetoric more commonly found among loony conservatives.

[BuelahWitch]

309. I love how you dismiss that the teacher pushed the wrong buttons

that caused the whole scuffle. The teacher is supposed to be THE GROWNUP in the situation. Because this so-called grownup got a bug up her ass about a PIECE OF FUCKING CLOTHING, a CHILD was hauled away in handcuffs. It was the teacher's own immaturity that caused the situation. The school knows that, and that's why they dropped the charges.
All the little girl wanted to do was wear her cow hoodie to the party.

[Hanse]

312. I love how people are pretending it's an issue.

It's like a small child claiming "well she started it!" As if that somehow makes a difference.

"The school knows that, and that's why they dropped the charges. "

The school dropped the charges because it's in the system and being handled, and the immediate issue was ressolved.

[BuelahWitch]

318. It is an issue

Your straw man argument doesn't hold up. One was an adult with a control issue. The other person was a child with a disability. They both acted like children, only one of them can be excused for that action...

[Hanse]

319. No, it's not.

"One was an adult with a control issue."

That's possible. Not enough information to decide at this point.

Hypothetically, even if the teacher had pushed the wrong buttons, which is easy to do accidently, it does not change the fact that the staff did the right thing once the child began to physically attack the staff.

[Pithlet]

333. The school isn't the one that dropped the charges.

The DA made that decision. It even says right in the article the school wanted charges pursued. They actually felt charges were warranted. That is insanity.

[sam sarrha]

311. she was asualted..!! then she responded to defend herself, this is the story of my life, i was put i

put in classes for retarded children, i was brutalized repeatedly because i simply didnt understand what was going on socially..i was ALWAYS VERY CAREFUL TO ALWAYS DO EVERYTHING PROPERLY AND NOT DRAW ATTENTION TO MYSELF. i couldn't understand why people..teachers.. were grabbing me by the hair dragging me to the office throwing me roughly into a chair and threatening me. because they said i solved a mechanical drawing in wood shop, the teacher set me up, the teacher said took Algebra to solve the problem and he checked with my math teacher and he said i couldn't do fractions. this encounter was vicious and brutal, 2 adults right in my face screaming at me demanding answers without giving me time to answer..

my drunken father beat me nearly every day, he'd start and work to a crescendo, he knew i'd start hand flipping and when i did he beat me with a belt and when i wouldn't quit crying he beat me with his hands to the ground screaming at me..

they finally quit yelling at me and i explained how i solved the problem.. part of my Syndrome is a Functional Obsessive Compulsive Fascination with "the parts of things" and solving the problems associated with them. i explained how i was able to make a mechanical drawing out of a written description.. the shop teacher said, "oh" you used Geometry to solve it, go back to class. usually they weren't that kind.

Hance.. i am sorry you are a pathetic piece of soulless thoughtless shit. HOPEFULLY you might just be IGNORANT, i have put up with people like you all my life, i'm 60 and i'm still sick of it.. i had a 4th grade teacher very loudly say "GARY..!! ARE YOU STUPID OR JUST MENTALLY RETARDED..!! IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE BRUTAL CLASS. during reading free time, i was reading a book on engineering, solving a problem on the speed ratios of gear patterns, all i was doing was moving my finger back and forth against the page.. i have an IQ of 164. the teachers pick on Aspi's, they went too far with this girl, they knew it and they blamed her for what they did. i despise people like you, so quick to adorn authority with immunity.. what THEY DID was child abuse, because a child they knew was disabled, just wouldn't take off a coat. and for no other reason than they wanted that stupid kid to take off a coat they didn't like.. then when they fucked up by ASSAULTING the child.. they blamed the kid.

[Hanse]

314. See what I said about "projection."

[sam sarrha]

328. just a minute.........

[merh]

324. Okay, so you want viable, realistic alternatives?

How about not making a fuss about a cow hoodie?

The parents of the child sent the 8 year old to school in that outfit. It is the parent's responsibility to clothe their child and it is their responsibility to make sure that what the children wear abides by the dress code at the school.

IF there was a dress code, then the schools responsibility to the child and the parent was to call the parent and ask that alternative clothing be brought to the school for the child and/or that the child be taken home.

IF there was no dress code, the teacher acted arbitrarily and punished the child for the poor fashion choice. It was December - appears to be very cold climate. The child's hoodie was not just a "safety net" for the child with special needs, it would appear to be clothing necessary to protect the child from the cold. The teacher violated the child's freedom of expression and punished for no cause, with no reason. Keeping the child from the party was punishment, keeping her isolated was punishment.

Then the restraint was excessive and abusive. An adult that bruises a child in such manner has committed CHILD ABUSE.

I could go on, but I suppose you get the drift. There are rules for a reason and the adults must follow them. The adults in this instance did not and you defend them while saying a child should be excessively punished for her parent's bad fashion sense or choice.

Do you not see a problem with that?

[BuelahWitch]

329. Oh, but the cow hoodie issue is "irrelevant"!

:eyes: :sarcasm:

[merh]

334. It should have been - the teacher made it relevant

and blamed the child for the choice of her parents - punished the minor for the actions of the minor's custodian's actions and responsibilities.

There are some truly upsetting posts in this thread from adults who hold positions of responsibility and authority.

Home schooling looks like a good idea given the reactions of many who should know better.

[lumberjack_jeff]

346. Many (most?) kids on the spectrum also suffer from sensory integration issues.

the wrong kind of lights, the wrong kind of noises, the wrong kinds of tastes or the wrong kind of textures cause irritation approaching the level of physical pain.

If you want the child to learn, you have to avoid those sensations. Allowing the kid to wear the clothes of her choosing is a "reasonable accommodation". If I were the parent, I'd be contacting a lawyer for the districts violation both of the ADA as well as IDEA.

IMHO, the bruises she might have gotten from the necessary level of restraint are less trauma than being handcuffed.

[merh]

347. Oh, I think she was traumatized by the entire offense

Who does an autistic child trust the most? Normally it is their parent and if the mom let's that child go to school in that hoodie, it is a violation of that trust for another adult to try to take that hoodie.

And children are mean enough to each other when it comes to fashion and what is the "wrong" thing to wear, for an adult in a position of responsibility to cause this type of incident over a blessed hoodie is beyond belief.

[Hanse]

350. OK, so you don't make a fuss about the hoodie.

Then the child has a blow out over something else and attacks the staff over that.

What do you do then?

"Then the restraint was excessive and abusive. An adult that bruises a child in such manner has committed CHILD ABUSE."

Straight up bullshit.

[merh]

351. The staff attacked her first.

You don't punish a child if they have done nothing wrong. The punishment over the hoodie was the first abuse, it was emotional abuse it was cruel punishment when no wrong had been committed.

The next wrong was the physical restraint when the child tried to go to what would give her some sense of place, the party with people she knew and trusted.

Understand - the child was not able to know right from wrong, not at that age, she has no mens re, no criminal intent - she reacted emotionally and out of fear.

The purported adult, with the ability to reason and who should have known right from wrong was the teacher.

The restraint was abusive if the child was bruised. Anyone should be able to restrain a 54 pound child without much effort.

The straight up bullshit is that this has to be explained to you and adult. You cannot abuse a child, even if you are a teacher.

[Hanse]

352. That's absurd.

And you've illustrated my point about nobody giving any alternativesn

[merh]

354. It is not absurd

what is absurd is that you blame that child - did you even watch the video

If you think that child had the mental capacity to understand the circumstances the adult created and then you are indeed a very sad human being.

We adults have the responsibility to care for the children, they are not our servants, our minions to command at will and for no cause.

To punish you must have committed some wrong, bad fashion is not a wrong.

[merh]

355. I'll give you one better - how about Idaho's state statute

Idaho: IDAHO CODE Sec. 33-1224

"In the absence of any statute or rule or regulation of the board of trustees, any teacher employed by a school district shall have the right to direct how and when each pupil shall demean himself while in attendance at the school. It is the duty of a teacher to carry out the rules and regulations of the board of trustees in controlling and maintaining discipline, and a teacher shall have the power to adopt any reasonable rule or regulation to control and maintain discipline in, and otherwise govern, the classroom, not inconsistent with any statute or rule or regulation of the board of trustees."

"If the local school board permits the use of corporal punishment, we would recommend that a clear policy be written to meet the following legal standards to insure that: The teacher is not allowed to inflict corporal punishment on the basis of anger; The punishment is reasonable; The punishment is related to the age, sex, size and physical condition of the child; The punishment leaves no permanent effects; The punishment is not performed to enforce an unreasonable rule".

I'll bet you there is no school policy about dress code that allows for corporal punishment.

NO COW HOODIES is an unreasonable rule - so put that in your blessed pipe of absurdities and smoke it.

[Hanse]

357. Yeah, you're not helping your case here.

Restraining a violent child is not a form of punishment.

"NO COW HOODIES is an unreasonable rule"

"No hitting, kicking, and spitting on the teacher" is a perfectly reasonable rule.

[lumberjack_jeff]

371. You don't understand autism.

Blow ups of this nature have triggers which can be recognized and avoided.

[lumberjack_jeff]

345. Special Ed teachers are supposed to be trained to manage negative behaviors.

They shouldn't "push buttons" to cause negative behaviors which they then must call the cops to manage.

If the best of their ability leads to an 8 year old in handcuffs, they need better abilities.

[lightningandsnow]

370. Exactly. What the hell was wrong with the teachers?

There was no reason for them to exclude her from the party in the first place.

[lanlady]

306. a story from my son's school

During my son's last year of high school, he was in literature class sitting next to a kid who was physically disabled. Behind them, a couple of other guys got into some sort of scuffle. The teacher, a famously disgruntled jackass, threw a large tome of poetry at the boys who were misbehaving. But he missed, and ending up striking the boy who was physically incapable of dodging out of the way of the flying book.

My son was so upset, he ended up calling me from school just to vent about the teacher. I called the school, asked for the principal, got handed over to an assistant principal, who proceeded to tell me it was none of my business because the injured party was not my kid. I told her that my son was collateral damage so to speak because he was so shaken up by seeing his classmate, who was helpless in the situation, be struck by the teacher--one who was already known to have "anger management" issues. The ass't promised to call me back to inform me of the actions the school would take.

She never did call back, and the teacher wasn't disciplined. He apologized to the class and to the disabled student, and that was it, case closed.

So, yeah, I can believe that the teachers in this 8-yr-old's case lost their tempers and got rough on this girl and now the faculty is closing ranks to protect themselves.

[donco6]

342. Wow.

We fired a teacher for striking a child. We'd have had quite a lawsuit if a teacher threw a book. That's horrible.

[merh]

356. That is pathetic

and that teacher violated the state law (most states have laws against physically punishing a child (corporal punishment) and that indeed would fall under that category. The teacher should have faced charges and been fired. And yes, the teacher should have lost his/her license. I don't think adults with anger issues should be allowed to be in charge of students.

[merh]

308. posted in the wrong place

edited

[flvegan]

322. This thread has officially lived up to expectations.

Well done!

[The Straight Story]

325. Thank you, I think

:)

Next up, breast feeding while shooting an AR-15 while smoking a cigarette in a bar and eating left over olive garden....

[reggie the dog]

343. whenever I take the the Autism-Spectrum Quotient, or AQ, test

I get between 29 and 31, 32 is the point at which 80% of people with the score have some kind of autism. I have never been diagnosed but I have a lot of the signs, inability to guague people based on body language, hate making eye contact, I talk alot in one sided monologues, feel sort of off in nearly all social situations. My solution has always been to use some kind of drug to make socialization easier. First alcohol, then cannabis. Now I smoke a lot and am generally stoned in non work social situations so I no longer feel awkward. Reading this thread makes me wonder if I have aspergers and have not been diagnosed. That may explain why I felt so detached and suicidal when I was a teen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

348. Buch Of Piece Of Shit Teachers. I Hope The Family Wins The Lawsuit.

I'm so sick of the way schools treat young children these days. 4 yr olds getting arrested for kissing a girl's cheek etc. Arresting an 8 yr old with aspergers for this, putting the child through this, is UNACCEPTABLE. I'm amazed at some of the people defending the school over this. Disgusted by it in fact.

It's an 8 yr old child with Aspergers. There is NO excuse for the way this school behaved. Lord help any motherfucker that treats either of my kids that way. Lord fucking help them.

[LostinVA]

353. I still don't get what's wrong with her hoodie???

I personally think it's cute.

Seriously -- what's the big deal?

[Tsiyu]

358. TERRA!! TERRA!! Autistic 8-year-olds taking over a town near you!!!

Be vewy, vewy afwaid!!!

This thread has been a fascinating look into attitudes about mental illness and child development.

Society must go a long way yet if some of the attitudes here are any indication.

I am most amused to learn that there is some new race of super-mutant ninja 8-year-olds out there ready to disembowel the nearest adults without the slightest provocation. Who knew? Not too many years ago, when I worked in a children's hospital (five years worth plus overtime), we had to deal with combative kids also.

You think arguing over beloved clothes can get tough? Try telling a little kid he has to get a needle in his head or a tube stuck WHERE? You want to see a small human being go postal, hang out where I've worked.

Never once was I injured. Never once was a child handcuffed. Many of these kids had developmental and emotional challenges as well as their physical issues.

I smell some horse shit up above.

But what do I know? Trust the experts. Those evildoing 8-year-olds are coming for YOU!!!!

[Kickin_Donkey]

364. Wow just wow.

After reading all 350-odd posts in this thread, I thought I was on a right-wing website.

The amount of nazi, authoritarian, and just plain unkind posters trying to justify the actions of the teachers and school administration in the arrest of an 8-year-girl over a cow hoodie is stunning. This from supposedly liberal members.

Some of us have flown the coop post-9/11, where everything is a potential crime and must be handled with the most draconian terms possible. Swarthy man on an airliner? Report him to authorities and have him kicked off the flight. Go to a pro sporting event –– prepare for a pat search. Man restrained by officers, face down, lying on his stomach, in a train station? Shoot him in the back. Kid wears a cow hoodie to school -- have them arrested, shackled, booked and prosecuted.

All you panicky, fearful people, there are other websites for you.

[Gwendolyn]

365. Why does everyone keep bringing up the girl's learning disabilities and special needs...

...yet assume that her retelling of the story, i.e. that the incident was about removing a hoodie, is automatically true and correct?

[lightningandsnow]

368. She's autistic, not delusional.

People with asperger's and learning disabilities, by definition, also have average to above average intelligence.

[Gwendolyn]

373. Lol, I know. We have an aspie in the extended family.

That's not what I was implying. There can be some differences in perception, or interpreting things very literally. I just find it odd that it seems this is the school that first seemed to take an interest in the girl's development and suggested she be tested. Now they suddenly don't seem to have the slightest clue. The school invites children to dress up for a belated Christmas party but single her out for her costume? I agree the restraining was foolish considering, but the story is obviously not complete.

[Pithlet]

374. Why does it even matter? 8 year old little girls

shouldn't be hauled from their elementary schools in cuffs and charged with assault and battery. Even if her personal account isn't exactly accurate, this school is in the wrong.

[Gwendolyn]

375. I was just musing on the number of posts expressing outrage at the costume...

aspect. No children shouldn't be hauled from schools in cuffs, but not being involved in the system at all, I wonder in what ways the admin's hands are tied that they would see this as a plausible solution rather than dealing with it themselves. Is it a fear of being sued for applying their own discipline?

[Pithlet]

376. They might have thought that was the case. But it doesn't excuse it.

Being the grown ups, they put on their grown up panties and face the possibility of getting sued. And no parent, school board or voting public worth their salt excuses that mentality and lets them get away with it.

I actually do kind of get you on the cow costume outrage. That's not the part of the story that's so outrageous. It's the fact that an 8 year old girl with Asperger's was arrested and charged with a crime. She was basically arrested and charged because of her disability. That's the outrage. It really doesn't matter what precipitated it. I think it probably is likely that the teachers don't know how to handle her condition well. But that's not even the worst part of the story.