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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 01:03 AM
Original message
Filled with pride at today's events, yet still able to speak out. Walkng and chewing gum.
A year or so ago when there was the push for the Unity08, a ticket made of a Democrat and a Republican...I found some blogger treasures.

I think we can carry "post partisanship" and "bi-partisanship" just so far until we realize it is all about giving the right wing their way. Their side keeps pushing strongly on issues they believe in. Our side does not.

We can be adults and discuss policy before, during, and after the inauguration. And we can question some things and still have our eyes fill with tears watching the beautiful event in DC today. One does not preclude the other.

Chris Bowers at Open Left has some good points on what people mean when they say give Obama a chance.

Last night's discussion on "giving Obama a chance" was, in my opinion, quite useful. This is because the discussion helped clarify what most people mean when they urge others to "give Obama a chance." Based on this and other discussions on the subject, as best as I can tell, "giving Obama a chance" means "not writing negative things about Obama." Thus, one is not "giving Obama a chance" when one is not discussing the President-elect in a sufficiently positive tone.

That's fine. Political discussions of concepts like "giving someone a chance," "progressive" or "change" are often crippled by problems of vagueness relating to the Sorites paradox. Anything that helps solve such problems is both useful and welcome. When people can at least agree on the terms and definitions of an argument, often the source of disagreement disappears entirely. While that probably isn't the case here, as I explain in the extended entry, it might be close.

....While it might be different in some situations, at least in the blogosphere there is no value in being positive toward Obama for the sake of being positive toward Obama, just like there is not value in being negative toward Obama for the sake of being negative toward Obama. As long as someone is being honest to him or herself, and is open to counter-arguments, that really is all which should be required in our community. If "giving Obama a chance," means that someone should cease to be honest with him or herself for simply for the sake of being positive, or an implication that someone is acting either in an ignorant or close-minded fashion, then it is not s healthy part of our dialogue online. Of course, the same would apply to those who call bloggers that write about Obama in glowingly positive tones either naïve and / or blind.


Here's some more about the bloggers' great posts about what's really going on about "bipartisanship."

Digby's Bipartisan Zombies...a great read

Bipartisan Zombies

"Today we have none other than the centrist drivel king, David Broder, reporting that a group of useless meddlers, most of whom who were last seen repeatedly stabbing Bill Clinton in the back, are rising from their crypts to demand that the candidates all promise to appoint a "unity" government and govern from the the center --- or else they will back an independent Bloomberg bid."

..."Isn't it funny that these people were nowhere to be found when George W. Bush seized office under the most dubious terms in history, having been appointed by a partisan supreme court majority and losing the popular vote? If there was ever a time for a bunch of dried up, irrelevant windbags to demand a bipartisan government you'd think it would have been then, wouldn't you? (How about after 9/11, when Republicans were running ads saying Dems were in cahoots with Saddam and bin Laden?) But it isn't all that surprising. They always assert themselves when the Democrats become a majority; it's their duty to save the country from the DFH's who are far more dangerous than Dick Cheney could ever be."


The Horses Ass blog tells it like it is quite clearly.

Bipartisanship mean Democrats caving and crossing the aisle.

When the media establishment moralistically calls for more bipartisanship, this is what they are talking about: Democrats caving and crossing the aisle to vote with the Republican block. It almost never happens the other way around on the most important issues of the day. Almost Never.

The issue here was simple. Is simulated drowning torture, and thus illegal? Mukasey, soon to be our nation’s top law enforcement official, refused to say. So this noble display of bipartisanship now confirms that the United States of America is a nation that condones torture.

F*** bipartisanship.


I remember this part from a review of a book about the DLC in 2000, we find out how they did made themselves so powerful. First they tried to change things from inside. We are now trying to get our back from them by trying from the inside. They finally formed their own base from which to operate...

Reinventing Democrats: The Politics of Liberalism from Reagan to Clinton

How did a group of elite politicians and operatives transform a political party?

First, they gave themselves a little bit of distance. After several unsuccessful attempts to influence the party establishment from within, the reformers formed the DLC as an extra-party organization in 1985. This avoided what Bruce Babbitt referred to as the "Noah's Ark problem"---the need to satisfy diverse constituents by taking representative positions on behalf of each one. They could also raise their own money (which DLC honchos like Virginia's Chuck Robb were notably good at), start their own think tank (the Progressive Policy Institute), and publicize their own views without tangling with the cumbersome Party bureaucracy.


They ignored their traditional constituents to build a corporate money base. And we are supposed to keep compromising.

You know what's funny? Most of us are thrilled that Obama is going to be president. Yes, there are a couple of things I am very upset about....but that can wait now until after he is sworn in.

We can watch the inauguration concert with tears flowing and hearts filled with pride....and we can turn right around and question something.

Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. There is nothing wrong with that.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. And yes those of us who speak out...
have joy and happiness just like others do. Just to clarify.
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Shiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. I love it when you speak out
I - and this is me talking, no one else - would just like to see the joy and happiness a little more ;)

Better yet, speak out about joy and happiness. :toast: :kick:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I would probably do a better job of that...
Edited on Mon Jan-19-09 06:40 PM by madfloridian
except there so many signs we are going in the same direction on too many issues. I hate to think it, but I am a little fearful at the pressure that will come to bear on Obama.

His choice of Rahm was a statement not just to the GOP, but to the activists in the party. There are others as well. Not inviting the outgoing chairman to the presentation of the new one, waiting till he was out of the country, and as his staff say...just flat out recommending he not be there...a statement indeed. A statement indeed to those of us who worked to get him chair in the first place.

So would I be beloved if I only posted happy and joy stuff? I doubt it. I doubt it would really matter more than a few days.

I have been told to post only happy stuff, which I why I posted that I can walk and chew and even talk on the phone at the same time.

And there is nothing wrong with that. It is wrong to advocate being one party, and I will continue to speak up on that.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. But think about this
I can speak out about joy and happiness and be more popular here right now.

But when do we start watching the watchers so to speak. When does that time come?
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Shiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I've said it a few times on this board before
I believe in speaking out when your upset as well as when your happy. Let them know when you're angry, and let them know when you approve. I think it would show that we are watching them all the time, not just for them to make a mistake, and lets them know when they are doing things right. If all they hear is disapproval, then we run the risk of being shunted into the "never satisfied" category and written off.

It's about marketing ourselves; perception is reality. It's up to us to control, as much as we can, how we are perceived. ;)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Perception....
That is just a word to me anymore.

I have seen through the last 6 years how this place can turn on people. One must fit a mold, so to speak. Oddly enough the mold is determined by only a few with very loud voices.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. I always like what you have to say.
I am a bit worried about this. It seems Democrats are expected to cave, despite the fact that they have the largest majority in years.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It worries me as well.
I hope they won't, but there are too many indicators that on many important issues they might.

The House had a big majority since 2006, and they passed or failed to pass some big stuff.

One was the FISA bill. They had the majority. They did not have to let it through. In the Senate Reid did not have to present with bill with immunity, but he did.

Why did 58 Democrats flip on FISA from no to YES since last year?

FISA
2007 total: 227 aye - 183 no - 23 NV
Dems in 2007: 41 aye - 181 no - 9 NV
GOP in 2007: 186 aye - 2 no - 14 NV
2008 total: 293 aye - 129 no - 13 NV
Dems in 2008: 105 aye - 128 no - 3 NV
GOP in 2008: 188 aye - 1 no - 10 NV


Hoyer said they passed it to keep the Blue Dog Democrats happy.

Since Democrats controlled the House, they also caved in on Plan B for military women and funding for abstinence only education.

They denied the Plan B bill to women on military bases, and the Democrats increased the funding for a failed education system by 27.8 million.

So it does worry me.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Well those are some pretty big worries. To me the most worrisome item
On Obama's agenda is the economy.

All the Civil rights in the world will not mean a hoot if there is no food on the table, no utilities to keep us warm in the winter and cool in the summer, no roofs over our heads.

The Economy may very well prove to be Obama's Bay Of Pigs, and since he voted for the reprehensible 700 Billion dollars of BailOut funds paid for by We The People and basically embezzled by the banking class, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Where is the change in that, Mr Obama? Why Geithner, Summers and Rubin when you could have had Kucinich, Waters, and Issa? It would be one thing if the 700 Billion dolalr BailOut bill was only that, but another 8 Trillion dollars has slipped into the hands of the Banking Class unmentioned and unnoticed by most people including the Press. The election serverd as a distraction, while the Inaugrual events also keep us diverted.

What was the old saying about bread and circuses for the people?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. And once again, liberals were right, but Obama chose to listen..
to the same group of fools who went along with Bush on Iraq instead.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Cave in to what this time?
The shattered Chicago School Reaganomics which Greenspan himself admitted was a flawed model?
This time Rethugs will have to cave in. Fuck them and all the hacks. After eight years of Rethug recklessness they don't have any credibility.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. But Obama has not repudiated the Chicago School Reagonomics
Edited on Mon Jan-19-09 09:06 PM by truedelphi
He choose the three people who are so intertwined with the current economic crisis that now one of my main reasons for supporting him over Clinton has been made meaningless.

When she went around saying how she would appoint Greenspan to help us see our way out of the Sub Prime Mortgage mess, little did I realize that Obama would support Geithner, Summers and Rubin.

How hard would it have been for him to support those who are railing against Paulson and Kashkari? How hard would it have been for him to look over the resumes of Kucinich, And Maxine Waters, and even Issa, if he wants to be so bi-partisan about it.

Or even Barbara Boxer. She understands the economy, though having her lose her Senate seat is not something I would want to have happen.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I had forgotten her support for Greenspan.
Good points.
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cate94 Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. K & R
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes we can!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes , we can....do both.
:hi:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Isn't America grand!
:hi: Damaged, but never-the-less grand!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Room for all opinions.
Yes, it's a great country.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. It is the responsibility of the masters to oversee the servants.
In a democracy, we are (allegedly) the masters and the politicians we hire are the servants. As much as the politicians try to make it the reverse, and all too often succeed, it is still the responsibility of the citizenry to hold them accountable for what they do, and fire them if they fail to do the will of the people.

Ultimately, it is our responsibility for what happens in this country.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You are so right. We must remember they work for us, not the other way around.
Too many forgot that a long time ago.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Barney Frank said he had "post partisan depression." Me, too.
I had forgotten this. Here is his statement from Think Progress and a video from You Tube.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/22/post-partisan-depression/

"Frank said Obama “overestimates his ability” to “charm” conservative opponents to his side, and joked that he missed the days of partisanship:

"I think he overestimates his ability to take people — particularly our colleagues on the Right — and sort of charm them into being nice. I know he talks about being post-partisan. But I’ve worked frankly with Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, and the current Republican leadership. … When he talks about being post partisan, having seen these people and knowing what they would do in that situation, I suffer from post partisan depression."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Great comment from the Barney Frank post at Think Progress.
"If ONE side is thinking about getting along while the other side is practicing scorched Earth all out war the get along guys are at a huge disadvantage. I am all for the effort but you need to have your eyes open and be READY FOR THE WAR. He needs to send the message that if the right thinks it will treat an opening for dialogue as weakness that the left is ready to eat their livers when it come to that. Barney as usual is making a good point."

Amen to that.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Recommend highly. The question is: how far will Obama go to be a uniter? Will he know
when to drop the hammer? Will he do it when it's needed? Today and tomorrow I will answer: just far enough; yes, he'll know; yes, he will.

Rest assured that while we are cheering and swelling with pride, tears on our cheeks and hope in our hearts, Rove, McConnell, Boner and company are plotting to undermine Obama at every turn. They can no more become post-partisan than Dick Cheney can wipe that nasty smirk off his evil face.

Soooo, it is up to us to be there to shore up the progressive side and push forward our agenda. Starting on Wednesday, January 21, if need be.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. You make good points.
The extremists on the other side will not compromise...just fight harder. Maybe he will be tough enough.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. They formed their centrist think tank so as not to need us.
It is our job to make sure our party needs us, or else we lose it.
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
24. Defining "giving him a chance" and "bipartisanship"
If you are curious what "giving him a chance" or "bipartisanship" is then why don't you ask the people who are using that phrase what they mean?

Personally, trying to figure out (generalize) what a multiple-meaning word or phrase communicates is a waste of time. Its not concrete, but it is also not confusing. People are using it in a lot of different ways and usually the context gives it away. I think this is a lot of false confusion.

For example, bowers post is a tasteless attempt to give the appearance of investigation. I mean really, the way people are using the phrase "give him a chance" is not really all that strange. Basically, they are trying to tell you that whatever statement you just made was overly critical. Sometimes, they are also trying to communicate that your conclusions are hypothetical or overly deterministic.

Bi-partisanship usually refers to getting members of the opposition to cave. Wow, these are mind blowing insights.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. There is no real question what the words mean.
I am under fire because I am not toeing the line right now, because I am warning against being just like the other party.

Chris does a good job of putting into words the utter foolishness surrounding a situation. It was a good post.

The ones in charge in the other party are extremists in most every way. Yet we are calling for getting along with them. They are not going to do it, so the question remains how far do we go to get them on board to get along with us.

:shrug:

Chris Bowers does not deserve your contempt for his post. It was a very perceptive one.

So does our party stand for its beliefs and platform? Or do we have a "post" party country where we all just get along.
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Its called reframing and blocking.
You and chris are hyper-focused on the campaigns message and asserting that it is this or that. Don't take it literally, its politics. "Post-partisan" was a campaign tactic, it blocks attacks like liberal and terrorist. Thats why those tactics did not work. For once, we did not walk into the same old arguments and pitfalls.

Remember when bush was a compassionate conservative? Re-framing.

Read his legislation. Then you will know what types of decisions he will make. He will destroy the republican party with these tactics. He is the most skilled politician of our life-time, that is clear. Will he fulfill the wet-dreams of liberals. I don't know. But, I have read his legislation and visited govtrack and I like what I see so far.

Base your assertions on something a little more solid than a literal interpretation of campaign slogans. If anything, he effectively re-framed the same party platforms we have always had quite effectively. Elections and legislation is not purely about the actors in any administration, its a lot more complicated than yall are making it.

Furthermore, Obama is not the party, we are. We don't hold them accountable. So, do we stand for our platforms or push buttons on a touchscreen? Instead of textual analysis, tell me what we do if they fail us on healthcare, or poverty, or green energy? We should be prepared to hold them accountable, right? So, lets get organized. Lets have a plan ready. Im working on it, are you?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29.  At stake is whether we become a one party country.
Very aware of framing and the meaning thereof. We have let the GOP control the language for ages, since Gingrich, really. You seem to think I am unaware of a lot of things.

My problem is not Obama, but those surrounding him. There is no room in the world of most of them for people who want to stand up for Democrats' traditional beliefs. That is my fear.

You said:

"Base your assertions on something a little more solid than a literal interpretation of campaign slogans. If anything, he effectively re-framed the same party platforms we have always had quite effectively. Elections and legislation is not purely about the actors in any administration, its a lot more complicated than yall are making it."

I want you to read the words of his own Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, when he and Bruce Reed nearly single-handedly destroyed George Lakoff's credibility in DC. Lakoff was talking about reframing, and he was very good at it until Rahm got through with him.

From The Plan

Note that they totally misrepresent Lakoff's framing views, and then they stick the knife in.

But Lakoff is flat-out wrong to suggest that Democrats are losing just because Republicans know all the right words. His favorite example is that conservatives learned to call tax cuts "tax relief." He's right that Republicans make a fetish out of using the most misleading, Orwellian words they can find. But let's be honest: Bush didn't manage to pass his tax cuts because he called them tax relief. (Most of the time, he called them tax cuts.) Bush got the chance to pass his disastrous tax cuts because Democrats were too slow to offer real tax reform proposals of our own. The tax debate illustrates what Al From, who founded the Democratic Leadership Council, has astutely observed: In a country with three self-identified conservatives for every two self-identified liberals, when neither side's agenda is sufficiently compelling, Republicans usually win by default.

The real danger of Lakoff 's analysis is that it reinforces Democrats' favorite excuse -- that Republicans have succeeded by pulling the wool over Americans' eyes, and that we'll start winning as soon as we learn the same dark arts.

Some Democrats want to believe that we can stand in front of the mirror and practice the words to win America back. "Ever wonder how the radical right has been able to convince average Americans to repeatedly vote against their own interests?" Ariana Huffington says in plugging Lakoff 's book, "It's the framing, stupid!" One glowing reviewer declared, "While Democrats were campaigning as if policy mattered, Republicans were waging their campaign on a far more fundamental, and more powerful, psychological level."

Lakoff insists that when arguing against the other side, the main principle of framing is "Do not use their language. Their language picks out a frame -- and it won't be the frame you want." What he doesn't realize, however, is that the whole notion that words matter more than reason is the Republicans' frame, and it's the wrong one for the country's future.

If we believed in conspiracy theories, we'd think that only Karl Rove could dream up the idea of a linguistics professor from Berkeley urging Democrats to "practice reframing every day, on every issue." Lakoff even sounds like Rove when he says (approvingly!) that Republicans offer the "strict father" worldview and Democrats the "nurturant parent." He describes 9/11 in phallic terms: "Towers are symbols of phallic power, and their collapse reinforces the idea of loss of power. Another kind of phallic imagery was more central here: the planes penetrating the towers with a plume of heat, and the Pentagon, a vaginal image from the air, penetrated by the plane as missile." With frames like that, who needs enemies?


Really?

And that's just his chief of staff. Here are the words of the head of the think tank forming the policy for the party, the one of which Rahm and Hillary are top leaders...and which also counts as members these others on staff.....Napolitano, Summers, Salazar, Kirk, and Vilsack. Plus others.

Al From's words very recently....words of advice to Obama.

Keeping the promise of Post Partisanship

Obama, like President Bill Clinton in 1993, will come into office with substantial Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress.

That’s good. But ironically, it could make it more difficult for him to keep the central promise that propelled him to the White House.

That promise is to change Washington, govern bigger than his party and forge a post-partisan political era. He pledged to tackle the country’s most pressing economic, domestic and security challenges by delivering a new kind of politics.

With the superpartisan Bush White House finally history and swelled majorities in both Houses, Democratic constituencies will have plenty of pent-up demands, and some Democrats in Congress may be tempted to engage in political payback.

I can sympathize with those desires, but Obama needs to resist them, for the success of his presidency — and, ultimately, his success in building a lasting political majority — will depend not on whether he satisfies the insiders in Washington but on whether he improves the lives of ordinary Americans who put their trust in him.


Al From is actually urging him to not pay too much attention to his own party. How about that?

Also read the words of our new party chairman on women's rights, civil unions for gays, and labor. Does he really believe those things? Or did he win on pretending to believe them. It's an important distinction.

Our Democrats have caved in on Iraq, FISA immunity, bankruptcy reform, and emergency contraception for military women...as well as other rights for women.

Where does it stop? Where do we draw the line?

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